Why are bad teachers allowed to teach

De Dannan

I believe that this is one of the most important jobs in the world. A good teacher is worth their weight in gold and should be paid a lot more than they are imo. By the same token a bad teacher can destroy a childs interest in learning forever and should be not be allowed to continue
How many poor teachers have been removed from their posts, and if not, why not ??

Craebear

Because it's Ireland and in Ireland sure isn't everything grand.

liah

I think it's more a case of the position not being enticing enough, in terms of hours or pay or treatment or whatever else, to attract people to the profession.

I don't actually know what it's like in Ireland, but when I was in school in Canada the teachers weren't paid that well, would work a lot of overtime, and had to attempt to control around 30 unruly and disrespectful teenagers who were obsessed with making life hell for them. I can kind of see why the job isn't the most attractive one. Even teachers who start out good eventually get broken down by year after year of trouble-causing kids.

I think if wages were increased for teachers (again, not sure if this is already the case in Ireland) it may draw in more competition as it would be seen as a more desirable job, and then employers could afford to be more picky with who they want to hire as teachers as there would be a larger pool of options.

Right now I just don't think there's enough teachers to allow schools to be picky in who they hire, full stop.

I could just be wildly misinformed though and talking out of my arse.

orourkeda

strong unions

Hank_Jones

Unions most likely.

Great documentary called "Waiting for Superman" about the subject of children's education in the US and how teachers can't be fired because of the system that protects them.

steddyeddy

I had some terrible terrible teachers who delighted in ruining kids confidence, these people were alcoholics, lazy ect and they were one of the most important people in a childs life. Some teachers were excellent though and right for the job.

Then there are teachers that only focus on the really good students. As my lecturer said "there are more bad teachers than students".

d'Oracle

Because in every job in the world, there are people practising said job and doing it badly.

liah

Oh yeah, I forgot about the unions. I actually quite like the unions-- we had a two-week teachers' strike when I was in school once during the spring, was a lovely holiday altogether :pac:

Tilt Gone

Because those who can, do. and does who can't teach.

Simples.

(oh and unions)

parker kent

It is extremely difficult to define what a bad teacher is. I'm sure everybody has stories of a teacher who they found to be poor, but that does not necessarily mean they were a bad teacher either. There is no guaranteed way to decide who is or is not a bad teacher. You can't go by leaving cert results for obvious reasons. Any league tables people may suggest are subject to dozens of issues. A good teacher can have students with poor results and a bad teacher can have students with good results.

Then there are always people who just have issues with teachers and naturally side against them. If people knew that complaining would get a teacher sacked, it would be open to malicious abuse. Often stories of bad teachers are really stories of kids (or more often parents) who have a gripe with a teacher for a number of reasons. The "my little angel is being held back by that teacher" attitude would come out in force.

So who exactly would decide who is or is not a good teacher? Would young teachers who struggle early in their career be fired, thus not giving them the chance to improve? Would personal grudges cause sackings? Would a teacher with a poorly performing class through no fault of their own be sacked?

It sounds great to say lets sack the bad teachers, but it is very difficult to do in reality. It would be great if poor teachers could be weeded out, but it is not as easy as it sounds.

And that is not taking into account the unions who proudly state their love of striking should somebody be sacked. One of the senior figures in SIPTU gave us a talk in college and seriously annoyed me with his BS.

Badgermonkey

Why are bad students allowed to stude?

My teechers wear great.

Chuchoter

I think the major thing in the way of having really great teachers is that there is no incentive to be good. The union/system prevents you ever getting fired and there is no pay to try new things and be good at what you do. Thats the reason people try hard in other jobs, because they will be fired/won't get a promotion or extra pay if they don't work hard. The students are brats, who are spoilt and think the world revolves around them (and I am a student, I would hate to be teaching my friends!).

Senior positions and permanent jobs should not be based on seniority, but on who works the hardest and does the most extra stuff. I think at the end of each year every student should hand up an evaluation of the school in general and specify which teachers are the best and deserve rewarding and which teachers need to be got rid of. I know some people would say that strict teachers would always get the short end of the stick, but I think the sheer number of responses would cancel that out. Most students will like a teacher even if they are strict if they are fair and good at teaching.

paulmr

De Dannan wrote: »

I believe that this is one of the most important jobs in the world. A good teacher is worth their weight in gold and should be paid a lot more than they are imo. By the same token a bad teacher can destroy a childs interest in learning forever and should be not be allowed to continue
How many poor teachers have been removed from their posts, and if not, why not ??

I absolutely agree with you that, as in all jobs there are those who are good and achieve the best from their students, while there are those who are bone lazy and are downright bad teachers. However how do you judge a good or a bad teacher? Exam results ? then who would be willing to teach the weaker classes or in disadvantaged areas where generally achievement would be lower? This whole argument of performance related pay has been around for many a long day yet no-body has came up with the answer. A new system is on the way that will provide criteria through which a teacher may be dismissed if sufficient paperwork is provided but because the teacher will be judged by the management in their own school it could be open to abuse.

IvySlayer

Some of the teachers I had were a joke. Not once did someone from the Department of Education ask my class, were we happy with the standard of teaching?

We had 2 particularly bad teachers. Once, before the Junior Cert, my class had enough of being pissed about my our Business teacher. He would arrive 20 minutes late every class. He would just tell us to read the book and wouldn't help us with anything we didn't understand. Never even turned up to parent teacher evenings. Eventually we went to our class teacher and told her. She said she'd look into it. Everyone in the school knew he was a joke. Nothing really happened, except the legendary Bobby helped us with Business studies (he was a History/Civics teacher).

In all my school life we had a few inspections. Basically an inspector would sit in the classroom for one lesson. Another one was they sent a tape recorder and the teacher had to tape the enitre lesson.....Everyone just acted like dickheads. :pac:

steddyeddy

parker kent wrote: »

It is extremely difficult to define what a bad teacher is. I'm sure everybody has stories of a teacher who they found to be poor, but that does not necessarily mean they were a bad teacher either. There is no guaranteed way to decide who is or is not a bad teacher. You can't go by leaving cert results for obvious reasons. Any league tables people may suggest are subject to dozens of issues. A good teacher can have students with poor results and a bad teacher can have students with good results.

Then there are always people who just have issues with teachers and naturally side against them. If people knew that complaining would get a teacher sacked, it would be open to malicious abuse. Often stories of bad teachers are really stories of kids (or more often parents) who have a gripe with a teacher for a number of reasons. The "my little angel is being held back by that teacher" attitude would come out in force.

So who exactly would decide who is or is not a good teacher? Would young teachers who struggle early in their career be fired, thus not giving them the chance to improve? Would personal grudges cause sackings? Would a teacher with a poorly performing class through no fault of their own be sacked?

It sounds great to say lets sack the bad teachers, but it is very difficult to do in reality. It would be great if poor teachers could be weeded out, but it is not as easy as it sounds.

And that is not taking into account the unions who proudly state their love of striking should somebody be sacked. One of the senior figures in SIPTU gave us a talk in college and seriously annoyed me with his BS.

Easy enough in some cases, someone humiliates the children and doesnt turn up half the time is a bad teacher

Agricola

They should have a metacritic for teachers. Anyone scoring lower than 40% fails and has to get a new job!

parker kent

steddyeddy wrote: »

Easy enough in some cases, someone humiliates the children and doesnt turn up half the time is a bad teacher

That is one extreme example, hardly representative of the majority.

Like I said everybody will have their own story, but often it is just that, a story. Of course there are ridiculously bad teachers and that is where the union issues get involved. But there are plenty of teachers who get the "bad teacher" rep unfairly.

Badgermonkey

liah wrote: »

I think it's more a case of the position not being enticing enough, in terms of hours or pay or treatment or whatever else, to attract people to the profession.

3 months paid holiday, early retirement & decent pension sounds enticing to me.

liah

Wait, so there are no Rate Your Teachers websites for Ireland?

They've been around for awhile in the States/Canada/other places.

steddyeddy

parker kent wrote: »

That is one extreme example, hardly representative of the majority.

True but this woman and other bad teachers still work. One is too much.

parker kent

liah wrote: »

Wait, so there are no Rate Your Teachers websites for Ireland?

They've been around for awhile in the States/Canada/other places.

There is one but it is trolled to death. I checked my old school and there were teachers listed on it who don't even exist. Then the usual "she was hot" or random abusive comments.

De Dannan

parker kent wrote: »

It sounds great to say lets sack the bad teachers, but it is very difficult to do in reality. It would be great if poor teachers could be weeded out, but it is not as easy as it sounds.

And that is not taking into account the unions who proudly state their love of striking should somebody be sacked. One of the senior figures in SIPTU gave us a talk in college and seriously annoyed me with his BS.

I agree it is not easy to weed out the bad ones
But I also wonder even if it was possible to point to bad teachers would the union prevent any type of repremand anyway ?

parker kent

steddyeddy wrote: »

True but this woman and other bad teachers still work. One is too much.

Like I said, that is caused by overly strong Unions. I'd also like to know how often people complain about that teacher. If a teacher was regularly 20 minutes late, it deserves more than just a mention to the class teacher. That sort of thing should be common knowledge and easy to organise wider protests to the principal or school board.

byhookorbycrook

I'm in the primary sector and genuinely,all of out staff are commited and good teachers.I have met with two people in the primary sector who should not have been teaching, both have since left( inspector visits and parent complaints helped.) I don't know how anyone who does not like teaching or who is poor at their job would survive. 30 children with a good teacher is hard enough, 30 with a bad teacher,untenable. Parents are no longer afraid to speak up and between Whole School Inspections, incidental visits (of which there were hundreds last year) make the primary sector accountable .

I can't speak for secondary,except to say that we all thought our French teacher was useless, yet we all got at least a c in honours. In retrospect, she was way ahead of her time, didn't bother with the textbooks very much ,had us all talking and using the language.

kowloon

Bad primary school teachers are much more dangerous than bad secondary teachers.

I had a teacher that used to turn everything into a competition between the boys team and the girls team. She used to bring sweets in for the girls and loved to give us a whack with a metre stick when she got the chance.
Never realised what was going on at the time, but she had issues that she should have left at the classroom door.

Had she been in charge of older children she no doubt would have been reported, but when you're a young child and get in trouble and the teacher drags you by the hair, you don't tell anyone in case you get in trouble!

IvySlayer

parker kent wrote: »

Like I said, that is caused by overly strong Unions. I'd also like to know how often people complain about that teacher. If a teacher was regularly 20 minutes late, it deserves more than just a mention to the class teacher. That sort of thing should be common knowledge and easy to organise wider protests to the principal or school board.

We did protest, we did complain, we were told to STFU and get back to class by our deputy prinicpal.

mikemac

parker kent wrote: »

There is one but it is trolled to death. I checked my old school and there were teachers listed on it who don't even exist. Then the usual "she was hot" or random abusive comments.

Had a look at the rate my teacher site just now.
And the scores and comments were pretty bang on.

The school has a few stars who I'll remember all my life and they passed on their love for their subjects. But then of course there were a few who should be on the dole queue, they have no business teaching.

Didn't see many trolling comments and the best teachers got the best scores.
Or maybe somebody tidied it up, I don't know. Pretty accurate from what I've just seen

ladynotout

Think teachers do good job you will always get few bad ones but I do agre they need to be sacked if not good enough

steddyeddy

parker kent wrote: »

Like I said, that is caused by overly strong Unions. I'd also like to know how often people complain about that teacher. If a teacher was regularly 20 minutes late, it deserves more than just a mention to the class teacher. That sort of thing should be common knowledge and easy to organise wider protests to the principal or school board.

Well I totally accept that most teachers work hard there are definatly exceptions. Im not sure how much students complain now a days to be honest but i know our complaints fell on deaf ears.

ladynotout

steddyeddy wrote: »

Well I totally accept that most teachers work hard there are definatly exceptions. Im not sure how much students complain now a days to be honest but i know our complaints fell on deaf ears.

agree same happened to us in school

Boom__Boom

Was talking to a principal at the weekend who was giving out about the unions and how impossible it is to get rid of a teacher once they are made permanent.

Has an issue with a teacher who has basically given up now that her children have left the school. Vast majority of her exam classes are all getting grinds, loads of parents have complained but because she continues to clock in on time there is no hope of getting rid of her.
Unless she pretty much physically attacks a pupil there's no chance of shifting her. She has 10+ years to go to retirement and my friend says he knows her plan is to coast all the way.

Some steps that could be introduced are 360 performance reviewers - reviews that combine pupils/parents, principals,co-worhers and external in-class reviewers with exam results.

Not a hope of the unions ever allowing it though.

tailgunner

orourkeda wrote: »

strong unions

I thought this said "strong onions" at first.

My teachers teached me to read real good.

parker kent

feelingstressed wrote: »

Had a look at the rate my teacher site just now.
And the scores and comments were pretty bang on.

The school has a few stars who I'll remember all my life and they passed on their love for their subjects. But then of course there were a few who should be on the dole queue, they have no business teaching.

Didn't see many trolling comments and the best teachers got the best scores.
Or maybe somebody tidied it up, I don't know. Pretty accurate from what I've just seen

Maybe it depends on the school. My school has a Mr. Shock from the Electricity Department and a Ms. Rose Bush from the Gardening Department! I also see a few names of former pupils etc. A sacking is extremely unlikely given the unions, but it might at least get teachers to actually show up instead of being 20 minutes late as in the example.

IvySlayer wrote: »

We did protest, we did complain, we were told to STFU and get back to class by our deputy prinicpal.

I mean something more formal and organised, involving parents association etc.

byhookorbycrook

Boom__Boom wrote: »

- reviews that combine pupils/parents, principals,co-worhers and external in-class reviewers with exam results.

Not a hope of the unions ever allowing it though.

Primary WSE interviews parents, children, principals, teachers and also trawl through results of standardized literacy and Maths tests.

steddyeddy

parker kent wrote: »

Maybe it depends on the school. My school has a Mr. Shock from the Electricity Department and a Ms. Rose Bush from the Gardening Department! I also see a few names of former pupils etc. A sacking is extremely unlikely given the unions, but it might at least get teachers to actually show up instead of being 20 minutes late as in the example.




I mean something more formal and organised, involving parents association etc.

in fairness a principle should be receptive to a students concerns.

paulmr

crayolastereo wrote: »

I think the major thing in the way of having really great teachers is that there is no incentive to be good. The union/system prevents you ever getting fired and there is no pay to try new things and be good at what you do. Thats the reason people try hard in other jobs, because they will be fired/won't get a promotion or extra pay if they don't work hard. The students are brats, who are spoilt and think the world revolves around them (and I am a student, I would hate to be teaching my friends!).

Senior positions and permanent jobs should not be based on seniority, but on who works the hardest and does the most extra stuff. I think at the end of each year every student should hand up an evaluation of the school in general and specify which teachers are the best and deserve rewarding and which teachers need to be got rid of. I know some people would say that strict teachers would always get the short end of the stick, but I think the sheer number of responses would cancel that out. Most students will like a teacher even if they are strict if they are fair and good at teaching.

Crayolastereo
you make some very good points. As a teacher the incentive to be good should be your own pride and self respect if nothing else. The difficulty with a teacher getting fired is how to judge a good or a bad teacher, if a teacher blatently breaks the rules or does something that undermines their position then no union would try to defend them merely see to it that their member was treated fairly bearing in mind their action. There is no senior positions being given out any more since the recession and education cuts hit. The reality for schools is that as senior A and B post holders retire their post is lost to the school and whatever job that person was doing for their post such as year head, uniform, detention, exams etc is generally taken on voluntarily by another teacher. As for students being allowed to evaluate their teachers, at the end of the day this would be akin to having criminals evaluate the gardai !! would it genuinely work ?

starlit

Ya, totally agree. I have had my fair share of teachers who couldn't teach certain subjects. I think you need excellent teachers to teach the likes of Maths, English and Irish in particular the other subjects you can teach yourself. Regarding Maths and Irish how often do students end up having to do grinds in these subjects due to either the subject being difficult for them and quiet possibly not having a teacher teach the subject properly. Maths, English and Irish are quiet important when it comes to exams. The best teachers in them will produce decent students who actually learn them. Crazy to think they hire teachers who cannot teach. Introduce proper teaching practices as part of their own curriculum at schools as well as part of their teacher training before commencing their teaching posts.

steddyeddy

paulmr wrote: »

Crayolastereo
you make some very good points. As a teacher the incentive to be good should be your own pride and self respect if nothing else. The difficulty with a teacher getting fired is how to judge a good or a bad teacher, if a teacher blatently breaks the rules or does something that undermines their position then no union would try to defend them merely see to it that their member was treated fairly bearing in mind their action. There is no senior positions being given out any more since the recession and education cuts hit. The reality for schools is that as senior A and B post holders retire their post is lost to the school and whatever job that person was doing for their post such as year head, uniform, detention, exams etc is generally taken on voluntarily by another teacher. As for students being allowed to evaluate their teachers, at the end of the day this would be akin to having criminals evaluate the gardai !! would it genuinely work ?

Thats a strange view of the teacher student relationship, ones the criminal and ones the lawkeeper?

parker kent

steddyeddy wrote: »

in fairness a principle should be receptive to a students concerns.

That sounds great, but just think how many students complain unfairly about teachers.

steddyeddy

parker kent wrote: »

That sounds great, but just think how many students complain unfairly about teachers.

Well if its unfair the teachers have nothing to worry about.

Son Of A Vidic

De Dannan wrote: »

A good teacher is worth their weight in gold and should be paid a lot more than they are imo.

No! Why should someone be paid more, when they are merely doing the job we entrust them to do?

GoldRush4821

There was a top American education expert on Matt Cooper a while back and he talked about why there was such a low number of HL maths students in the country currently. He basically said that not enough of the teachers have a true passion for maths and that they therefore do not instill any passion for the subject in their students. This is the case across the board (not a generalization, for the majority of subjects in your school, you will be able to point to one teacher of that subject who clearly has no passion for the subject they teach - think about it). IMO, nobody should achieve tenure the second they become a teacher. There is a reason doctors and the like go so long without being granted this privilege - they must earn it.

I believe that more passionate teachers = more passionate students, but unfortunately passion is not a prerequisite for a hdip.

To get back on topic, is The Croke Park Agreement too simple an answer for this question?

paulmr

steddyeddy wrote: »

Thats a strange view of the teacher student relationship, ones the criminal and ones the lawkeeper?

Simply making the point that this would not work. We have all seen the website " rate my teachers " where many good teachers are ridiculed or abused often due to their appearance or mannerisms and nothing to do with their teaching skills.

galwayrush

My wife was forced out of teaching because she used to get higher results in exams with the weaker classes than the permanent teacher got with the apparent cream of the crop in the school she was in . Apparently, brownnosing the principal was more important than teaching ability. This happened in 2 schools, she got fed up with the internal school politics and that a good percantage of teachers in both schools were quite useless but would always have permanent jobs.

I totally agree. I had some shocking teachers, the type who just wrote up notes on the blackboard for us to copy down, or who plain didn't give a crap. I remember my GCSE French teacher using a textbook called 'Work your way to a grade C' or something like that. We were fecking grammar school students! We should have been aiming for at least an A! But as her command of the language was p*ss poor, she obviously decided that a grade C was fine for us. Pathetic.

Chuchoter

paulmr wrote: »

Crayolastereo
you make some very good points. As a teacher the incentive to be good should be your own pride and self respect if nothing else. The difficulty with a teacher getting fired is how to judge a good or a bad teacher, if a teacher blatently breaks the rules or does something that undermines their position then no union would try to defend them merely see to it that their member was treated fairly bearing in mind their action. There is no senior positions being given out any more since the recession and education cuts hit. The reality for schools is that as senior A and B post holders retire their post is lost to the school and whatever job that person was doing for their post such as year head, uniform, detention, exams etc is generally taken on voluntarily by another teacher. As for students being allowed to evaluate their teachers, at the end of the day this would be akin to having criminals evaluate the gardai !! would it genuinely work ?

However the teachers from the boom years who have permanent jobs are still there and they're not good. Those teachers should loose their permanent status and be given to a more deserving teacher on a temporary contract.

I don't think you are giving students enough credit on their ability to rate the teachers. I have a French teacher, who is terrifying, I hated her classes but I won't for a second question that she was a brilliant teacher. There is a home ec teacher, who though lovely and funny, didn't get anywhere near the course finished for JC. I think most students (at least from senior years, whose opinions would count for more than a 1st years opinion) recognize who is good and who is bad, despite their own relationship with the teacher in terms of just not liking them.

paulmr

crayolastereo wrote: »

However the teachers from the boom years who have permanent jobs are still there and they're not good. Those teachers should loose their permanent status and be given to a more deserving teacher on a temporary contract.

I don't think you are giving students enough credit on their ability to rate the teachers. I have a French teacher, who is terrifying, I hated her classes but I won't for a second question that she was a brilliant teacher. There is a home ec teacher, who though lovely and funny, didn't get anywhere near the course finished for JC. I think most students (at least from senior years, whose opinions would count for more than a 1st years opinion) recognize who is good and who is bad, despite their own relationship with the teacher in terms of just not liking them.

Once again how or who will decide on a teachers future ?

Check out your school on rate my teacher.ie while a good many students or ex students do genuinely rate their teachers, how many false names of teachers are there? Is this taking things seriously? Also check out a teachers ratings how consistant are they? If students knew they had such power over their teachers what effect would this have on the system ? Schools are now obliged to elect a student council each year as their voice. A good principal will regularly consult with and listen to the student views.

Poor Craythur

De Dannan wrote: »

A good teacher is worth their weight in gold and should be paid a lot more than they are imo.

A lot of people should be paid more than they are. But that's not the way the world works. Generally in this world, people are paid what they can manage to get, not necessarily what they deserve.

whydoibother?

One problem is it is actually very difficult to assess a teacher in a formal sense because not all classes are equal. There are different ability levels, different discipline challenges and different levels of parental interest. Therefore the same set of grades for a class might be a great achievement in one class and a massive disappointment in another.

Chuchoter

paulmr wrote: »

Once again how or who will decide on a teachers future ?

Check out your school on rate my teacher.ie while a good many students or ex students do genuinely rate their teachers, how many false names of teachers are there? Is this taking things seriously? Also check out a teachers ratings how consistant are they? If students knew they had such power over their teachers what effect would this have on the system ? Schools are now obliged to elect a student council each year as their voice. A good principal will regularly consult with and listen to the student views.

Rate My Teacher is all done by students, so thats where the mistakes are coming from. Some of the ratings are ridiculous, but thats the anonymity. If you were to give a formal evaluation sheet to each student, to be handed back signed to their class tutor, you would not see stupid remarks. An overall percentage of less than 40 would lose you your permanent status.

paulmr

crayolastereo wrote: »

Rate My Teacher is all done by students, so thats where the mistakes are coming from. Some of the ratings are ridiculous, but thats the anonymity. If you were to give a formal evaluation sheet to each student, to be handed back signed to their class tutor, you would not see stupid remarks. An overall percentage of less than 40 would lose you your permanent status.

yes you might not see stupid remarks but many students would rate their teacher on what happened in class today or yesterday or on one particular incident or memory of that teachers class and not on the totality of their experience in that teachers class. How many students would be influenced by their peers. Also people all learn in different ways and what works for one student might not work for another so while one student will rate their teacher as excellent the person beside them may rate that same teacher as very poor.

I absolutely agree that there are bad teachers out there but as yet I dont see how a teacher can be properly and fairly evaluated and certainly not by their students.