Why are bad teachers allowed to teach

orourkeda wrote: »

strong unions

I thought this said "strong onions" at first.

My teachers teached me to read real good.

crayolastereo wrote: »

I think the major thing in the way of having really great teachers is that there is no incentive to be good. The union/system prevents you ever getting fired and there is no pay to try new things and be good at what you do. Thats the reason people try hard in other jobs, because they will be fired/won't get a promotion or extra pay if they don't work hard. The students are brats, who are spoilt and think the world revolves around them (and I am a student, I would hate to be teaching my friends!).

Senior positions and permanent jobs should not be based on seniority, but on who works the hardest and does the most extra stuff. I think at the end of each year every student should hand up an evaluation of the school in general and specify which teachers are the best and deserve rewarding and which teachers need to be got rid of. I know some people would say that strict teachers would always get the short end of the stick, but I think the sheer number of responses would cancel that out. Most students will like a teacher even if they are strict if they are fair and good at teaching.

Crayolastereo
you make some very good points. As a teacher the incentive to be good should be your own pride and self respect if nothing else. The difficulty with a teacher getting fired is how to judge a good or a bad teacher, if a teacher blatently breaks the rules or does something that undermines their position then no union would try to defend them merely see to it that their member was treated fairly bearing in mind their action. There is no senior positions being given out any more since the recession and education cuts hit. The reality for schools is that as senior A and B post holders retire their post is lost to the school and whatever job that person was doing for their post such as year head, uniform, detention, exams etc is generally taken on voluntarily by another teacher. As for students being allowed to evaluate their teachers, at the end of the day this would be akin to having criminals evaluate the gardai !! would it genuinely work ?

paulmr wrote: »

Crayolastereo
you make some very good points. As a teacher the incentive to be good should be your own pride and self respect if nothing else. The difficulty with a teacher getting fired is how to judge a good or a bad teacher, if a teacher blatently breaks the rules or does something that undermines their position then no union would try to defend them merely see to it that their member was treated fairly bearing in mind their action. There is no senior positions being given out any more since the recession and education cuts hit. The reality for schools is that as senior A and B post holders retire their post is lost to the school and whatever job that person was doing for their post such as year head, uniform, detention, exams etc is generally taken on voluntarily by another teacher. As for students being allowed to evaluate their teachers, at the end of the day this would be akin to having criminals evaluate the gardai !! would it genuinely work ?

Thats a strange view of the teacher student relationship, ones the criminal and ones the lawkeeper?

parker kent wrote: »

That sounds great, but just think how many students complain unfairly about teachers.

Well if its unfair the teachers have nothing to worry about.

There was a top American education expert on Matt Cooper a while back and he talked about why there was such a low number of HL maths students in the country currently. He basically said that not enough of the teachers have a true passion for maths and that they therefore do not instill any passion for the subject in their students. This is the case across the board (not a generalization, for the majority of subjects in your school, you will be able to point to one teacher of that subject who clearly has no passion for the subject they teach - think about it). IMO, nobody should achieve tenure the second they become a teacher. There is a reason doctors and the like go so long without being granted this privilege - they must earn it.

I believe that more passionate teachers = more passionate students, but unfortunately passion is not a prerequisite for a hdip.

To get back on topic, is The Croke Park Agreement too simple an answer for this question?

My wife was forced out of teaching because she used to get higher results in exams with the weaker classes than the permanent teacher got with the apparent cream of the crop in the school she was in . Apparently, brownnosing the principal was more important than teaching ability. This happened in 2 schools, she got fed up with the internal school politics and that a good percantage of teachers in both schools were quite useless but would always have permanent jobs.

paulmr wrote: »

Crayolastereo
you make some very good points. As a teacher the incentive to be good should be your own pride and self respect if nothing else. The difficulty with a teacher getting fired is how to judge a good or a bad teacher, if a teacher blatently breaks the rules or does something that undermines their position then no union would try to defend them merely see to it that their member was treated fairly bearing in mind their action. There is no senior positions being given out any more since the recession and education cuts hit. The reality for schools is that as senior A and B post holders retire their post is lost to the school and whatever job that person was doing for their post such as year head, uniform, detention, exams etc is generally taken on voluntarily by another teacher. As for students being allowed to evaluate their teachers, at the end of the day this would be akin to having criminals evaluate the gardai !! would it genuinely work ?

However the teachers from the boom years who have permanent jobs are still there and they're not good. Those teachers should loose their permanent status and be given to a more deserving teacher on a temporary contract.

I don't think you are giving students enough credit on their ability to rate the teachers. I have a French teacher, who is terrifying, I hated her classes but I won't for a second question that she was a brilliant teacher. There is a home ec teacher, who though lovely and funny, didn't get anywhere near the course finished for JC. I think most students (at least from senior years, whose opinions would count for more than a 1st years opinion) recognize who is good and who is bad, despite their own relationship with the teacher in terms of just not liking them.

paulmr wrote: »

Once again how or who will decide on a teachers future ?

Check out your school on rate my teacher.ie while a good many students or ex students do genuinely rate their teachers, how many false names of teachers are there? Is this taking things seriously? Also check out a teachers ratings how consistant are they? If students knew they had such power over their teachers what effect would this have on the system ? Schools are now obliged to elect a student council each year as their voice. A good principal will regularly consult with and listen to the student views.

Rate My Teacher is all done by students, so thats where the mistakes are coming from. Some of the ratings are ridiculous, but thats the anonymity. If you were to give a formal evaluation sheet to each student, to be handed back signed to their class tutor, you would not see stupid remarks. An overall percentage of less than 40 would lose you your permanent status.

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

Incidental visits take place without warning. It's not possible for a crappy teacher to suddenly morph into a good teacher, no matter who is watching!

It's not possible to sack the crapy teacher, no matter how bad they do in such a visit.

The ethos of the Head and his/her senior management team will dictate the standards. In class mentoring, reviews, in-set days when good practice is shared amongst teachers. The exam results, the review of standards all contribute to, not only a learning environment, but a good experience for both staff and pupils.

All that sounds very nice but how do you achieve that? break down the clique within the staffroom, a greater transparency on introduction of new teachers, availability of additional teaching, specialist teaching courses, and most important an understanding with the Union. The constant valuation of the pupil, good relationship with parents, and parents access to the head. Recognition of pupils dropping behind, cross subject evaluation, specialist staff to work with the more difficult pupil, booster classes for pupils and facilities for the gifted pupil.

All teachers want to feel valued and appreciated, by the same token, seen to be achieving. The mention of the mature teachers playing a straight bat on her final innings. Standards are there and people failing those standards can be moved. The realisation by staff of a consistent and formal review will enhance the lesson experience. Standards set by senior management, attainable and realistic, a timely intervention with the problem pupil, access to specialist in house seclusion unit, all contribute to a better standard of education

Well, That would do for a start. Three golden words for education, Inclusion, for all, seclusion for the troubled pupil, and exclusion applied for the safety of the majority.. Finally, the most valued person in the school. The pupil.

Do we not have a system like they have in some other countries, where schools are rated by exam results?