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Do you believe that the communion bread is the actual body of christ?

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Comments

  • #152
    AnnyHallsal
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,118 ✭✭✭AnnyHallsal


    seamus wrote: »
    Because agnostic doesn't make any declartion about whether you believe in God. You can be an agnostic atheist.

    Agnostic = "I don't know"
    Atheist = "I have no belief"

    Therefore an agnostic atheist is someone who says, "I don't know if there is a God but I do not have a belief in one".

    An agnostic theist would say, "I don't know if there is a God, but I do believe in one".

    Yeah, that's my point. The assumption here is if you don't belong to an organised religion you're automatically an atheist. That's a stereotype.


  • #153
    Ledger
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,459 ✭✭✭Ledger


    Canis Lupus wrote: »
    But you do realise as has been said that you can't call yourself a Roman Catholic if you don't believe in every last one of its teachings. It's not a personal decision you have the authority to make. You're either entirely on board or not.


    That would severely bring down the numbers in the RCC if everyone believed in that way of thinking.


  • #154
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 3,251 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Canis Lupus wrote: »
    But you do realise as has been said that you can't call yourself a Roman Catholic if you don't believe in every last one of its teachings. It's not a personal decision you have the authority to make. You're either entirely on board or not.

    I call myself Catholic. A person's religion is one of *the* most personal decisions he/she can make, and I've made mine. Anyone who says "YOU CAN'T DO THAT!!!"" can go faceplant themselves/hang.

    whatcha gonna do about it?


  • #155
    Beruthiel
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 42,361 ✭✭✭✭Beruthiel


    Ledger wrote: »
    tbh I have trouble trying to figure things out in my own head

    When trying to figure stuff out in your head, use reason and logic.
    I do still believe in many of the RCC's teachings

    When you say you believe in many of their teachings, are these teachings specific to the RCC?
    I just cannot understand how they can be so illogical sometimes.

    Because the rule book was put together many centuries ago when life and how to live it was totally different to now.


  • #156
    seamus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 68,173 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    niallith wrote: »
    what sort of poll is this? obviously its not ? its just the symbolic body of christ ?
    Transubstantiation. One of the core beliefs of the roman catholic church. And also one of the things that they seemingly forget to tell a lot of us when they were trying to brainwash indoctrinate teach us, seemingly.

    I grew up as a Roman Catholic believing that the communion was just a symbolic gesture for the body and blood. It was only when I was no longer Catholic that I found out in fact that in order to be Catholic you need to believe that the communion becomes the actual, factual body of Jesus during mass.

    If you don't believe that, you're not Catholic either. :)


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  • #157
    Einstein
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,631 ✭✭✭Einstein


    Wibbs wrote: »
    Well yes, they're human and we humans love that kinda stuff. I'd not call it a religion, I would call it a doctrine however.

    *googles the exact meaning of doctrine before posting*

    Absolutely.

    But It's developed into a doctrine by keyboard warriors all over the world, as opposed to being just a stance.


  • #158
    Aiel
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 501 ✭✭✭Aiel


    boatbuilder wrote: »
    My answer is No.

    Haven't read through the entire thread, but the answer is pretty simple to me.
    I go to the Baptist church and here is our point of view.

    The bread and wine at communion do not actually turn to flesh and blood.
    It is only symbolic of body and blood so people can remember that Jesus died in order to pay the price for man's sins.

    1 Corinthians 11:24 and when he had given thanks, he broke it and said, "This is my body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of me."

    Unfortunately the Roman Catholic church has taken this literally and not symbolically.

    Jesus said "This is my Body",he didnt say ,"this is like my body,or this symbolises my body",unfortunately the Protestant churches have taken this symbolically instead of literally.


  • #159
    Ledger
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,459 ✭✭✭Ledger


    Beruthiel wrote: »
    When trying to figure stuff out in your head, use reason and logic.



    When you say you believe in many of their teachings, are these teachings specific to the RCC?



    Because the rule book was put together many centuries ago when life and how to live it was totally different to now.



    Some of them are, but like i said it is way too complex to get into it all here on boards.



    Thats what i think is broken with the RCC, they must move with the times and adapt their teachings and sermons. This is why attendence at mass is so down, many people, like myself, cannot see how some of it is connected with everyday life.


  • #160
    biko
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 81,060 ✭✭✭✭biko


    *Knock on door*
    *Opens door*

    "Hi, we're from the Atheists and would like to talk to you about Carbon-14 dating and evolution".
    "Have you accepted Darwin?"


  • #161
    Jason Damaged Shortchange
    Posts: 81,308 CMod ✭✭✭✭ Jason Damaged Shortchange


    Deleted User wrote: »
    A person's religion is one of *the* most personal decisions he/she can make, and I've made mine. Anyone who says "YOU CAN'T DO THAT!!!"" can go faceplant themselves/hang.
    It's just silly.

    "I'm a vegetarian"
    "so you dont eat meat"
    "no I do eat meat"
    "so you arent a vegetarian?"
    "I AM one, I think being mean to animals is wrong"
    "ok but that's not vegetarianism"
    "I AM one you cant tell me I'm not"

    then we back slowly away :pac:


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  • #162
    Ledger
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,459 ✭✭✭Ledger


    bluewolf wrote: »
    It's just silly.

    "I'm a vegetarian"
    "so you dont eat meat"
    "no I do eat meat"
    "so you arent a vegetarian?"
    "I AM one, I think being mean to animals is wrong"
    "ok but that's not vegetarianism"
    "I AM one you cant tell me I'm not"

    then we back slowly away :pac:



    you cant compare vegetarianism to a persons faith and religion in fairness.


  • #163
    Einstein
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,631 ✭✭✭Einstein


    bluewolf wrote: »
    It's just silly.

    "I'm a vegetarian"
    "so you dont eat meat"
    "no I do eat meat"
    "so you arent a vegetarian?"
    "I AM one, I think being mean to animals is wrong"
    "ok but that's not vegetarianism"
    "I AM one you cant tell me I'm not"

    then we back slowly away :pac:
    or the ole vegetarian that only eats chicken :P

    To be fair aswell, people take sections of their religions that suit them.
    They have a general way of life...they like the thoughts of a blessing at a wedding...they like the fact that they will hav a blessing when they die, but they don't follow the 10 commandments to the letter either.


  • #164
    MagicMarker
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 32,865 ✭✭✭✭MagicMarker


    Ledger wrote: »
    you cant compare vegetarianism to a persons faith and religion in fairness.
    True, a person usually decides to become a vegetarian of their own volition.


  • #165
    Canis Lupus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,880 ✭✭✭Canis Lupus


    Deleted User wrote: »
    I call myself Catholic. A person's religion is one of *the* most personal decisions he/she can make, and I've made mine. Anyone who says "YOU CAN'T DO THAT!!!"" can go faceplant themselves/hang.

    whatcha gonna do about it?

    Can you calm down a bit? I keep visualising you jumping up and down gnashing your teeth whilst furiously typing your replies....

    I would like some clarification on your stance however in particular are you saying you're christian or do I interpret catholic as roman catholic (as would be the generally accepted use of the term in Ireland?).

    A persons religion is indeed their own choice BUT if you affiliate with a religious organisation like RCC then you have to believe in their teachings which is what this thread is about. If you call yourself a member of the RCC but don't believe in transubstantiation for example then you need to have a chat with the parish priest...


  • #166
    Myrddin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 33,733 ✭✭✭✭Myrddin


    No.


  • #167
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,386 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    bluewolf wrote: »
    Eh...what?
    :confused:
    It's not a "whipping boy", there are threads all over the place "what do I do about getting my non catholic child into a school" :confused:
    Religion tends to be a whipping boy in AH. "Look at the silly theists" in tone. Catholicism on particular is hopped on. Meh IMH it's as daft or not as any of the others, we just have a recent(and it is kinda recent for the majority) chip on our shoulders about it. It's perfidious Albion in a cassock for the less chucky angled kidz. And shares many of the character of that debate. Most of all our need to blame others for our own mess. It was "de church/brits/bankers/politicians" delete as applicable. God/Universal laws forbid we look in the mirror. Yea the kiddie fiddling priest. He wasn't some strange monster, he was one of your own and was protected by you and others of your own. People like to think this guff was out of our hands.
    landsleaving wrote: »
    I'm an atheist... but I don't believe in atheism.
    Same diff. You explain your universe as existing because of a still to be somewhat worked out natural law, without the need for a creator deity kicking it off, or interfering in it. Yes of course it is based in observation and experiment, but that's still a belief system and it's name and description is atheism. Ergo you believe in atheism
    seamus wrote: »
    I'm also going to call you an a-la-carte Muslim because that's an equally valid title by your definition.

    You're also a non-practising traveller.

    Whatcha gonna do about it?
    Not comparable IMH. He doesnt believe in the main tenets of Islam, or at least put that label on himself. He hasn't been a traveller(I presume for the sake of this argument. He may be), nor labeled himself accordingly. He identifies himself with catholicism and follows much of it's teaching, more than he would say hindu teaching, so while amusing, your post makes no sense. Not unless you deal in absolutes and that's daft. Especially with regard to spirituality.

    Many worry about Artificial Intelligence. I worry far more about Organic Idiocy.



  • #168
    Penn
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 37,861 ✭✭✭✭Penn


    If the wine becomes the Blood of Christ, are priests vampires? They do dress in black although the whole crucifix, daylight and holy water parts don't add up.


  • #169
    yawha
    Closed Accounts Posts: 695 ✭✭✭yawha


    Wibbs wrote: »
    Same diff. You explain your universe as existing because of a still to be somewhat worked out natural law, without the need for a creator deity kicking it off, or interfering in it. Yes of course it is based in observation and experiment, but that's still a belief system and it's name and description is atheism. Ergo you believe in atheism
    Atheism doesn't have anything to do with explaining how the universe exists.

    Atheism doesn't have anything to do with observation and experiment.

    Atheism is a lack of belief in gods.

    Is my lack of belief that there is a giant invisible elephant in my room a belief system?


  • #170
    Canis Lupus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,880 ✭✭✭Canis Lupus


    Ledger wrote: »
    Thats what i think is broken with the RCC, they must move with the times and adapt their teachings and sermons. This is why attendence at mass is so down, many people, like myself, cannot see how some of it is connected with everyday life.

    It's not the fault of the RCC though is it. The point is that it's based on the word of god and your god hasn't seen fit to talk to anyone since biblical times therefore there is no 'moving with the times' and why now, sloooooooowly people are starting to (and are unafraid to) question the teachings of churches.


  • #171
    seamus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 68,173 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    Wibbs wrote: »
    He doesnt believe in the main tenets of Islam, or at least put that label on himself.
    That's OK though, I can put that label on him for him. He believes in God and many of Jesus's core teachings. That's enough for me to say that he's at least partially into Islam.
    He hasn't been a traveller
    But he still doesn't practice what travellers practice, therefore he's a non-practising traveller.
    Not unless you deal in absolutes and that's daft. Especially with regard to spirituality.
    Catholicism only deals in absolutes. In fact, the Pope himself regards relativism to be evil.

    My point here is that a person can label themselves all they want, privately. I can call myself a black african, if I want. But when it comes to interacting with the rest of the world, this notion of, "Label yourself whatever you want" is nonsense, because labels often define absolutes - I am not a black African because that would require me to be black, and African. Similarly an "a-la-carte" Catholic is a oxymoron, you cannot be "a-la-carte" and Catholic. It's one or t'other. "Catholic" (or more correctly Roman Catholic) is an absolute label. It assigns you to group with whom you share a range of beliefs.

    If you do not share even one of those beliefs, then you are incorrect to call yourself a member of that group.


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  • #172
    dilbert2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 364 ✭✭dilbert2


    KurtRussel wrote: »
    NOT ANOTHER RELIGION THREAD!!!

    Well this isn't really a debate, it's just a straightforward question, with a yes or no answer.

    Mine is: NO

    Thank you for your time.

    By the way if you answer no, you're not a Roman Catholic.


    It's remarkable that anybody does really, anymore than one could believe that goldilocks ate the three bears porridge or that a witch gave snow white a poisoned red apple as facts.

    As for the taste of them, it's no wonder so many people go for a drink on Sunday - to get the taste of those yokes out of their mouths no doubt.:rolleyes:


  • #173
    Jason Damaged Shortchange
    Posts: 81,308 CMod ✭✭✭✭ Jason Damaged Shortchange


    Wibbs wrote: »
    Religion tends to be a whipping boy in AH. "Look at the silly theists" in tone.
    This thread is arguing the fine points of one religious belief against another, not arguing it against atheism.
    I don't see why everyone is assuming only atheists don't believe in transsubstantiation.
    Catholicism on particular is hopped on. Meh IMH it's as daft or not as any of the others, we just have a recent(and it is kinda recent for the majority) chip on our shoulders about it. It's perfidious Albion in a cassock for the less chucky angled kidz. And shares many of the character of that debate. Most of all our need to blame others for our own mess. It was "de church/brits/bankers/politicians" delete as applicable. God/Universal laws forbid we look in the mirror. Yea the kiddie fiddling priest. He wasn't some strange monster, he was one of your own and was protected by you and others of your own. People like to think this guff was out of our hands.

    Okay, but that has nothing to do with either this thread or what I said about educational policies :confused:


  • #174
    Run_to_da_hills
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,009 ✭✭✭✭Run_to_da_hills


    I became to believe that the bread was not the body of Christ at about the age of six, in around the same time as I stopped believing in Santa Claus. :)

    I take it as a symbolic gesture and not as something to be taken literally.


  • #175
    landsleaving
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,345 ✭✭✭landsleaving


    Wibbs wrote: »
    Same diff. You explain your universe as existing because of a still to be somewhat worked out natural law, without the need for a creator deity kicking it off, or interfering in it. Yes of course it is based in observation and experiment, but that's still a belief system and it's name and description is atheism. Ergo you believe in atheism

    I meant that I don't go in for all the religion bashing nonsense with that post you quoted, rather than it having some sort of intellectual merit.

    But I would also say atheism is merely the lack of belief in a deity, whether it's a belief system or not is entirely subjective. I would never describe it as such.

    Edit, actually I'd describe it as such when it holds science up as doctrine and deity and criticises non-believers.


  • #176
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 3,251 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    No one out there is answering the question of what they're going to do about me calling myself an a-la-carte Catholic. (Personally I'd go for saying "Well you might be a Catholic, but you're not a "true" Catholic)

    However, moreso than my Catholicism, I'd be of the opinion that a person's faith is a lot more fluid than the OP or many posters here would like to think. I believe that, whatever the Truth, it's a helluva lot more complicated and nuanced than anything a human organisation can think.

    We don't know, we never will know, but we should respect all beliefs. Not because one of them could be right/wrong, but because we fundamentally respect the believer's right to decide fro him/herself.

    Edit: I knew I'd covered this stuff before


  • #177
    MagicMarker
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 32,865 ✭✭✭✭MagicMarker


    Deleted User wrote: »
    We don't know, we never will know, but we should respect all beliefs.

    No, we shouldn't.


  • #178
    Jason Damaged Shortchange
    Posts: 81,308 CMod ✭✭✭✭ Jason Damaged Shortchange


    Deleted User wrote: »
    but we should respect all beliefs.

    because we fundamentally respect the believer's right to decide fro him/herself.

    The two are not the same thing. Therefore we can agree to the latter without the former


  • #179
    Canis Lupus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,880 ✭✭✭Canis Lupus


    Deleted User wrote: »
    No one out there is answering the question of what they're going to do about me calling myself an a-la-carte Catholic. (Personally I'd go for saying "Well you might be a Catholic, but you're not a "true" Catholic)

    Well it's already been alluded to but if you want me to be specific. If you call yourself a roman catholic but don't believe in all aspects of the RCC teachings then your opinion has less weight or value to me in this particular debate as clearly you don't know what you're talking about. It's that simple really.


  • #180
    Penn
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 37,861 ✭✭✭✭Penn


    I respect other peoples rights to choose and follow any religion they want.

    So long as they respect my right to make fun of it.

    Anybody can believe whatever the hell they like. But that doesn't mean that everyone else should have to tippy-toe around, watching what they say in case it offends them. You want to live your life one way? That's fine. But I'm not going to change the way I live for you


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  • #181
    Marcus.Aurelius
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,314 ✭✭✭Marcus.Aurelius


    Deleted User wrote: »
    We don't know, we never will know, but we should respect all beliefs. Not because one of them could be right/wrong, but because we fundamentally respect the believer's right to decide fro him/herself.

    So long as they aren't trying to change the laws of the land to enforce their fantasies or using their delusions as an excuse to inflict pain and suffering, they can worship a tin of lilt for all I care.

    :pac:

    So what's the deal with Catholicism? What's with this cosmic Jewish zombie demanding we eat him? Someone's gone and got the whole thing confused.

    We should be eating the Catholics.


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