anyone here going to vote sinn féin?

Euroland · 16-02-2011 01:39PM

Monty Burnz wrote: »

Russia and China will lend to us cheaply because they want to be our international friends?

Does anyone actually believe that??

They are just not as greedy as the ECB guys.

Monty Burnz · 16-02-2011 01:42PM

Euroland wrote: »

You just use the scary tactics:

1)We don’t need BEUR 200 for our ATMs, even a few BEUR would be more than enough
2)We currently have some money and we will not return it, using it as initial WC
3)We default on all bank debt and bankrupt all our problem banks, protecting only the deposits (at least to some reasonable level)
4)Based on the above we would need much smaller (than BEUR 200) money to borrow
5)That smaller money can be easily arranged directly either with IMF or from countries like China, Russia or Sweden
6)We shouldn’t care about the future of the Euro zone, first of all we should care about the future of Ireland, which would be grim for the next generation if we accept the “bailout”

Point 6 I agree with 100%. The rest of it...oh my god. So we guarantee deposits with money we don't have? What happens when everyone tries to take out their money??

Seriously, this is so off the wall I honestly don't know where to begin. But I encourage you to read about the Argentinian default to get an idea of what will happen.

Monty Burnz · 16-02-2011 01:43PM

Euroland wrote: »

They are just not as greedy as the ECB guys.

It's not about greed - it's about realpolitik. There is no strategic reason why Russia or China would risk lending us their money. Therefore there is no reason - countries like Russia or China do not do friendship, they only do self interest.

Euroland · 16-02-2011 01:57PM

Monty Burnz wrote: »

It's not about greed - it's about realpolitik. There is no strategic reason why Russia or China would risk lending us their money. Therefore there is no reason - countries like Russia or China do not do friendship, they only do self interest.

1) Both of the countries want to make as many friends as possible among the Western countries
2) In the past both of them were willing to help other countries with lending at significantly lower interest rates than imposed on us by ECB (5.88%)
3) So, I don’t see any obstacle for them to lend us at significantly lower interest rates then we getting from ECB
4) 4) As regards to ECB (the Germans), they are greedy, they are envy, and they want to undermine us (Ireland) in all possible ways. If they would really want to help us they would allow some haircuts on the bank debt to the bondholders and would offer us a discounted interest rate (something around 2.5-3%)

Pete_Cavan · 16-02-2011 02:00PM

Euroland wrote: »

1)We don’t need BEUR 200 for our ATMs, even a few BEUR would be more than enough
2)We currently have some money and we will not return it, using it as initial WC]
3)We default on all bank debt and bankrupt all our problem banks, protecting only the deposits (at least to some reasonable level)]

How can you protect deposit? The banks do not carry the money in cash, it has been given out in loans or used as collateral to borrow. Because deposits up to €100,000 have been guaranteed, the government has to immediately fork out the money for all of these. A default would see a run on the banks as people try to get their money out. The banking system would collapse and businesses would not be able to access working capital, how can the banks give short term credit if they have no money? The economy would be completely destroyed

Euroland wrote: »

4)Based on the above we would need much smaller (than BEUR 200) money to borrow
5)That smaller money can be easily arranged directly either with IMF or from countries like China, Russia or Sweden]

Based on the reality I explained above, we still have to borrow huge sums of money. Do you really think anybody would lend us even €10 after we have defaulted on billions and ruined our economy? Iceland defaulted on bank debt and couldnt get money from anywhere and needed the IMF to bail them out. Why would China, Russia or Sweden offer us money?

Euroland wrote: »

6)We shouldn’t care about the future of the Euro zone, first of all we should care about the future of Ireland, which would be grim for the next generation if we accept the “bailout”

So after causing huge damage to the European economy, defaulting on billions of euro of loans the EU, IMF and ECB have given us and p*ssing off all of our major trading partners do you think there will be much market for Irish goods abroad or would we get many tourists this year? We need to work with Europe, much of our economy depends on them and the future of Ireland would be a lot worse without them.

Euroland · 16-02-2011 02:19PM

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

How can you protect deposit? The banks do not carry the money in cash, it has been given out in loans or used as collateral to borrow. Because deposits up to €100,000 have been guaranteed, the government has to immediately fork out the money for all of these. A default would see a run on the banks as people try to get their money out. The banking system would collapse and businesses would not be able to access working capital, how can the banks give short term credit if they have no money? The economy would be completely destroyed

Again, you use the scary tactics. A lot of countries went throw defaults and managed it reasonable well. Iceland is an example, or Russia.

Monty Burnz · 16-02-2011 02:21PM

Euroland wrote: »

Again, you use the scary tactics. A lot of countries went throw defaults and managed it reasonable well. Iceland is an example, or Russia.

I take it you have never been to Russia then?

SafeSurfer · 16-02-2011 02:24PM

No, not in the polls. Sinn Fein scored 26% on their political reform policies. It must come as a dissappointment to their cheerleaders here who see them as radical, reformers who will "shake up the political system".

http://reformcard.com/

Euroland · 16-02-2011 02:25PM

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

Based on the reality I explained above, we still have to borrow huge sums of money. Do you really think anybody would lend us even €10 after we have defaulted on billions and ruined our economy? Iceland defaulted on bank debt and couldnt get money from anywhere and needed the IMF to bail them out. Why would China, Russia or Sweden offer us money?

1) When Iceland defaulted, before going to IMF they went to Russia and asked them to borrow at least BUSD 5, and Russia answered that they wouldn’t mind, but would have to conduct an assessment. Then Iceland arranged the full package from IMF and had to cancel the plans for borrowing from Russia. But Russia was willing to do so.

2) So if Iceland (and many others) managed to arrange the borrowing from IMF what precludes us from doing the same, especially if it comes at lower interest rate than from ECB?

phantom_lord · 16-02-2011 02:26PM

Wolfe Tone wrote: »

How dare you accuse Gerry of being in the IRA!

Ok, Il answer, I don't know. I also don't care, for a variety of reasons. Besides, I have faith in SF and Adams too.

What's this "faith" based on exactly? They've shown themselves to be completely incompetent economically, and Adams couldn't answer basic questions the other night in the debate about their economic policy?

Or is it just "sur they're republicans I'll vote for them"?

Are you not even remotely uncomfortable with the fact that neither the leader of the party nor the supporters of it in this thread can come up with logical defensible reasons to support their policy?

Monty Burnz · 16-02-2011 02:29PM

Euroland wrote: »

1)When Iceland defaulted, before going to IMF they went to Russia and asked them to borrow at least BUSD 5, and Russia answered that they wouldn’t mind, but would have to conduct an assessment. Then Iceland arranged the full package from IMF and had to cancel the plans for borrowing from Russia. But Russia was willing to do so.

Perhaps because a) the amounts of money required by Iceland were much smaller and b) Russia has a strategic interest in having influence/control over Iceland, who are debating joining the EU?

Euroland · 16-02-2011 02:30PM

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

So after causing huge damage to the European economy, defaulting on billions of euro of loans the EU, IMF and ECB have given us and p*ssing off all of our major trading partners do you think there will be much market for Irish goods abroad or would we get many tourists this year? We need to work with Europe, much of our economy depends on them and the future of Ireland would be a lot worse without them.

Please don’t mix the EU and ECB (The Euro zone) up. These are 2 separate organizations. I want Ireland to be a part of the EU, but not a part of the Euro zone, we should be like Sweden, Denmark, UK, etc.

KELTICKNIGHTT · 16-02-2011 02:34PM

alex32 wrote: »

Yip for definate, they are the only ones telling the bodholders to get stuffed, they gambled on bad banks and lost and now they want me and you to cover their losses, feck off!!

Also they are a party of principle not careerist gombeens in politics for self gain.
p.s My Ma who always voted FF is voting SF aswell after watching the leaders debate and MM's comment about '..you coming down here..' crap, wtf was that about, from the leader of a supposedly Republican party?

SF are going to upset the apple cart and ruffle the elitist cosy cartels. Long may it last too.:D

i think alot of partys will say something about the bondholders,

irememberu · 16-02-2011 02:36PM

most of the irish parties were born from violence of one type or another so now that sf have turned the corner why not??? they cant be any worse than the others. check out utube for a gr8 song about the politicians its by a na fianna band called the last one --- sums up my feelings too!!!

Euroland · 16-02-2011 02:36PM

Monty Burnz wrote: »

I take it you have never been to Russia then?

Yes, I have, several times.

Is this somehow related to the topic on SF?

Monty Burnz · 16-02-2011 02:41PM

irememberu wrote: »

most of the irish parties were born from violence of one type or another so now that sf have turned the corner why not?

How far around the corner do you need to be? Sinn Fein were heavily involved with the murderers of Gardai and the robbers of banks in the last decade. Gerry Adams probably has blood on his hands from ordering murders.

I think when they are another 20 or 30 years into politics and away from crime, I'll be happier with them.

Monty Burnz · 16-02-2011 02:42PM

Euroland wrote: »

Yes, I have, several times.

Is this somehow related to the topic on SF?

You were claiming that Russia came out of defaulting fine. I'm claiming that the place is a depressing wreck run by a dictator and the mafia.

KELTICKNIGHTT · 16-02-2011 02:43PM

Euroland wrote: »

You just use the scary tactics:

1) We don’t need BEUR 200 for our ATMs, even a few BEUR would be more than enough
2) We currently have some money and we will not return it, using it as initial WC
3) We default on all bank debt and bankrupt all our problem banks, protecting only the deposits (at least to some reasonable level)
4) Based on the above we would need much smaller (than BEUR 200) money to borrow
5) That smaller money can be easily arranged directly either with IMF or from countries like China, Russia or Sweden
6) We shouldn’t care about the future of the Euro zone, first of all we should care about the future of Ireland, which would be grim for the next generation if we accept the “bailout”

we in europe and own Europe alot of money ,if we moved outa europe which is never going too happen,we be alot worse off,we mighten have a country too live in,same it time some should face reality,yes we need a better deal ,but only thing on table is maybe a decrease in interest rate,stop the waste here with where money doesnt help like hse,the pension is the answer,need too wake up from that too,only 4.6 billion there,its costs too run frontline services in Ireland 16 billion a year,sf dont have a proper plan there,so no point asking them,the need too learn and maybe in opposition they might instead of objecting too everything for sake of objecting,would also help sf if there came too present and not the past in there views,would help ireland lot more,but i sure as all others are,they rant on and on about republican this and republican that,sf,smarten up if you really want too help

irememberu · 16-02-2011 02:44PM

possibly but at the end of the day ff walked out of the democratic process after the treaty was ratified by dail eireann and began the civil war yet given a few short years 1932 were in government!!1 1998 to 2011 is more timne so give them a chance??

Pete_Cavan · 16-02-2011 02:48PM

Euroland wrote: »

1)When Iceland defaulted, before going to IMF they went to Russia and asked them to borrow at least BUSD 5, and Russia answered that they wouldn’t mind, but would have to conduct an assessment. Then Iceland arranged the full package from IMF and had to cancel the plans for borrowing from Russia. But Russia was willing to do so.

2)So if Iceland (and many others) managed to arrange the borrowing from IMF what precludes us from doing the same, especially if it comes at lower interest rate than from ECB?

First of all, I would like to see proof that Russia agreed to lend to Iceland. Even if they did, obviously the money Russia offered them was at a higher rate than the IMF offered. The moral of your story is we should borrow from the IMF, not Russia.

Euroland wrote: »

Please don’t mix the EU and ECB (The Euro zone) up. These are 2 separate organizations. I want Ireland to be a part of the EU, but not a part of the Euro zone, we should be like Sweden, Denmark, UK, etc.

The ECB and the "The Euro zone" are not the same thing. The ECB administers the EUs monetry policy. They are not two separate organisations. Like I said, the ECB is buying almost €150bn worth of Irish bank bonds because no one else will and is propping up our banking system. Without them we have no banks at all. No banks is not a good thing.

Euroland · 16-02-2011 02:48PM

Monty Burnz wrote: »

You were claiming that Russia came out of defaulting fine. I'm claiming that the place is a depressing wreck run by a dictator and the mafia.

:eek: Dirty baseless insinuations. :mad: Have you ever been there?

Since the default the level of living skyrocketed there. The same story for Argentina.

Pete_Cavan · 16-02-2011 02:51PM

irememberu wrote: »

possibly but at the end of the day ff walked out of the democratic process after the treaty was ratified by dail eireann and began the civil war yet given a few short years 1932 were in government!!1 1998 to 2011 is more timne so give them a chance??

SF still have high ranking party members who have been imprisoned for terrorist activities and who greeted the killers of Garda Gerry McCabe upon their release from prison. Get rid of these and I would consider giving them a chance but not until then.

KELTICKNIGHTT · 16-02-2011 02:53PM

phantom_lord wrote: »

What's this "faith" based on exactly? They've shown themselves to be completely incompetent economically, and Adams couldn't answer basic questions the other night in the debate about their economic policy?

Or is it just "sur they're republicans I'll vote for them"?

Are you not even remotely uncomfortable with the fact that neither the leader of the party nor the supporters of it in this thread can come up with logical defensible reasons to support their policy?

i couldnt have said it any better,for some weird reason the supporters seem too think sf be better because there republician,bull full stop,the other night in debate,gormley said lets all partys pull together for few years if all are serious about helping ireland,none did including gerry adams,that about sums it up in irish politics overall,sf is all about power and there agenda,always have and always will,there policys a 15 year must have drawn up ,there more holes in than a strainer for straining rice or pasta,them any of there sf party talk,its same from same sheet of paper
people who are angry will vote for them and people who know no better,thsis republican bull they put out is 40 years old and doesnt help ireland now,i dont trust sf and never will,they have too many things they won town up too and most importantly ,there policy's ,they dont have any,they can even answer questions,

Euroland · 16-02-2011 02:57PM

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

The ECB and the "The Euro zone" are not the same thing. The ECB administers the EUs monetry policy. They are not two separate organisations. Like I said, the ECB is buying almost €150bn worth of Irish bank bonds because no one else will and is propping up our banking system. Without them we have no banks at all. No banks is not a good thing.

Just the basics, from wiki:

The European Central Bank (ECB) is the institution, which administers the monetary policy of the 17 EU Eurozone member states.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Central_Bank

Please, in the future, don't mix the EU with the Eurozone (ECB) up. There are also other countries in the EU.

KIERAN1 · 16-02-2011 02:58PM

The amount of Funding the Irish government is looking for would be just "Pocket Money" to some non European countries. But we are member of the European Union, so it was natural that crowd would be first to jump in and offer us a bail-out, but on the otherhand the European union stepped in and got involved in Ireland, mainly to stop the "EURO" currency from crashing in 2010, so we need to appreciate, and be conscious of the fact firstly. Ireland has borrowed in the region of 80-90 billion from the ECB and the IMF, with 35-40 billion of this is going to the banks to recapitalise them, and some of it going to repay senior bondholders from outside of this Island, who'd gambled on the Irish housing market and lost badly.

We do have a problem in the Irish economy, as we are spenting more then we are taking in with taxes from the public. I believe the revenue receives 35 billion in taxes, and we spent 50 bilion in the fiscal year. So we have to borrow from somewhere no question about that, as FF have overinflated this economy in the last ten years, we need to balance the economy sheet, so cuts in social welfare and cuts in public services and the tax increases are knackering to the Irish citizen, but are essential if we are to ever get out of this mess we are in at this time!

Banks in my opinion are not the problem of the "Irish taxpayer", as their private owned businesses, so all Irish citiizens show not be forced to suffer a second hit on their finances to bailout a banking system that is stilll greedy in nature, and has done nothing to show the Irish population there apologetic for their actions over the last generation or two. We've have borrowed at 5.8% on this Loan..with 35 to 40 billion of the 90 billion we borrowed not helping the Irish economy-or the Irish citizen!.. Ten billion could easily form a new bank for Ireland... that other 30 bilion is just going to sink hole that no Irish ciizen will benefit from at all. The banks caused this financial mess, but yet then we turn around, and hand over close to half the money we got from Europe to them, do we honesly believe there will be no disadvantage or drawbank to this in the future?

China PRC and The FED in the United States will give aloan to us and a better interest rate got from the ECB, we just have to make the dilpomatic approach to find out, but we can't afford this 5.8% on a 90billion loan from our socalled friends in Europe.

Sinn fein are right we should default on private bank debt, but we do need to borrow to keep the "Economy" going, so every party is right in their own way. But the easiest option and wrong option was done by FF and now been supported by FG and labour. Our country can not ask its electorate to pay a double debt- with half the debt not even belonging to the Irish taxpayer. are we living in carton fantasy land with magical creatures, if we believe this can continue into the future/ I like the Sinn fein plan on defaulting of bank debt, but we do need to borrow from a source a country that is willing to help us out and perhaps invest!

KELTICKNIGHTT · 16-02-2011 03:12PM

KIERAN1 wrote: »

The amount of Funding the Irish government is looking for would be just "Pocket Money" to some non European countries. But we are member of the European Union, so it was natural that crowd would be first to jump in and offer us a bail-out, but on the otherhand the European union stepped in and got involved in Ireland, mainly to stop the "EURO" currency from crashing in 2010, so we need to appreciate, and be conscious of the fact firstly. Ireland has borrowed in the region of 80-90 billion from the ECB and the IMF, with 35-40 billion of this is going to the banks to recapitalise them, and some of it going to repay senior bondholders from outside of this Island, who'd gambled on the Irish housing market and lost badly.

We do have a problem in the Irish economy, as we are spenting more then we are taking in with taxes from the public. I believe the revenue receives 35 billion in taxes, and we spent 50 bilion in the fiscal year. So we have to borrow from somewhere no question about that, as FF have overinflated this economy in the last ten years, we need to balance the economy sheet, so cuts in social welfare and cuts in public services and the tax increases are knackering to the Irish citizen, but are essential if we are to ever get out of this mess we are in at this time!

Banks in my opinion are not the problem of the "Irish taxpayer", as their private owned businesses, so all Irish citiizens show not be forced to suffer a second hit on their finances to bailout a banking system that is stilll greedy in nature, and has done nothing to show the Irish population there apologetic for their actions over the last generation or two. We've have borrowed at 5.8% on this Loan..with 35 to 40 billion of the 90 billion we borrowed not helping the Irish economy-or the Irish citizen!.. Ten billion could easily form a new bank for Ireland... that other 30 bilion is just going to sink hole that no Irish ciizen will benefit from at all. The banks caused this financial mess, but yet then we turn around, and hand over close to half the money we got from Europe to them, do we honesly believe there will be no disadvantage or drawbank to this in the future?

China PRC and The FED in the United States will give aloan to us and a better interest rate got from the ECB, we just have to make the dilpomatic approach to find out, but we can't afford this 5.8% on a 90billion loan from our socalled friends in Europe.

Sinn fein are right we should default on private bank debt, but we do need to borrow to keep the "Economy" going, so every party is right in their own way. But the easiest option and wrong option was done by FF and now been supported by FG and labour. Our country can not ask its electorate to pay a double debt- with half the debt not even belonging to the Irish taxpayer. are we living in carton fantasy land with magical creatures, if we believe this can continue into the future/ I like the Sinn fein plan on defaulting of bank debt, but we do need to borrow from a source a country that is willing to help us out and perhaps invest!

if done the way sf would go,we wouldnt be lent any funds from any where,you can burn your bridges ,all of them and expect still too get money,its like defaulting on your loans and still go too a bank asking for money,doesnt work,specialy now,the markets rate over 9%,ireland couldnt afford it,so imf/eu deal was put in place,yes the interest rate hight but looks like europe migth lower it abit,you can burn all bond holders,private yes but not the market we need in future,get real will you sf,this is the real worlds and need policys that will work with figures too back them up,this problem be here for 10 years,not 4 or 5 like all are saying,

jimaneejeebus · 16-02-2011 03:13PM

Ok let me start by saying

I don't really care for politics at all. For me, politics attempts to answer the questions- How much will I get? How much will they lose? How much more will I get if they lose?
This might strike you as being quite a cynical viewpoint! -but more and more I find this viewpoint being vindicated everyday. The public/private rift. The constant maneuvering and re-drawing of battle-lines by the many varied interest groups- The unions and lobbyists right down to the individual on Joe Duffy all asking the same question. How much will I get?

Of all the parties, Sinn Fein are the only ones that are truly answering these questions. Be it from a logical, idealogical, hypotetical, or even spiritual level. Sinn Fein are right about their answer to the question "How Much will they lose?"
They will lose greatly....For 'they' are the bankers.....They can afford to lose. In fact capitalism says 'they' should lose. If we pay these people €200,000,000,000 these people will never learn that when you invest, your investment can go up as well as down. The Irish people are all too aware that their investments can go up as well as down. But it seems like basic capitalism does not apply to the elite?

Yes Sinn Fein are answering that question with logic.
We are failing our children-if they ask us in years to come "Why-in 2011-didn't Fine Gael have the balls to do what's right? Why did they continue to pay billions of our nations money to foreign Investors. Why is our country f***ed?"

Pete_Cavan · 16-02-2011 03:15PM

KIERAN1 wrote: »

The amount of Funding the Irish government is looking for would be just "Pocket Money" to some non European countries. But we are member of the European Union, so it was natural that crowd would be first to jump in and offer us a bail-out, but on the otherhand the European union stepped in and got involved in Ireland, mainly to stop the "EURO" currency from crashing in 2010, so we need to appreciate, and be conscious of the fact firstly. Ireland has borrowed in the region of 80-90 billion from the ECB and the IMF, with 35-40 billion of this is going to the banks to recapitalise them, and some of it going to repay senior bondholders from outside of this Island, who'd gambled on the Irish housing market and lost badly.

No, we got the bailout money through the IMF and the European Financial Stability Facility. This is the money our government is getting, some of which is going towards recapitalising the banks but is also paying for our budget deficit until 2014.

The ECB is also lending Irish banks €132bn so without the EU and ECB our banks collapse and we are up sh*t creek without even a boat.

KELTICKNIGHTT · 16-02-2011 03:21PM

jimaneejeebus wrote: »

Ok let me start by saying

I don't really care for politics at all. For me, politics attempts to answer the questions- How much will I get? How much will they lose? How much more will I get if they lose?
This might strike you as being quite a cynical viewpoint! -but more and more I find this viewpoint being vindicated everyday. The public/private rift. The constant maneuvering and re-drawing of battle-lines by the many varied interest groups- The unions and lobbyists right down to the individual on Joe Duffy all asking the same question. How much will I get?

Of all the parties, Sinn Fein are the only ones that are truly answering these questions. Be it from a logical, idealogical, hypotetical, or even spiritual level. Sinn Fein are right about their answer to the question "How Much will they lose?"
They will lose greatly....For 'they' are the bankers.....They can afford to lose. In fact capitalism says 'they' should lose. If we pay these people €200,000,000,000 these people will never learn that when you invest, your investment can go up as well as down. The Irish people are all too aware that their investments can go up as well as down. But it seems like basic capitalism does not apply to the elite?

Yes Sinn Fein are answering that question with logic.
We are failing our children-if they ask us in years to come "Why-in 2011-didn't Fine Gael have the balls to do what's right? Why did they continue to pay billions of our nations money to foreign Investors. Why is our country f***ed?"

we pay the money because a goverment borrowed it,sf policys dont work ,most people can see that,in 2008 might have made a little difference but not now,sf dont answer where we can get 16 billion for frontline services,then we need 50 billion,ireland in tax take wouldnt cover frontline ,not even a third,even if money wasnt put into anglo bank,we still have problems as other banks and property boys messed up ,if ireland has too export and import,we have no option but too deal with worlds markets,other wise ireland will never grow,ireland always had debts too europe ,we just own a hell a lot more now

Euroland · 16-02-2011 04:22PM

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

No, we got the bailout money through the IMF and the European Financial Stability Facility. This is the money our government is getting, some of which is going towards recapitalising the banks but is also paying for our budget deficit until 2014.

The ECB is also lending Irish banks €132bn so without the EU and ECB our banks collapse and we are up sh*t creek without even a boat.

First of all, this amount includes not only Irish domestic banks but also the foreign banks, operating in Ireland (re-read the article)

Second, this is what we are actually trying to achieve: bankrupt all problem Irish banks, so there would be no further need to borrow. And we don’t need to re-capitalize them.

Third, for covering our budget deficit gap we can borrow elsewhere, either from IMF or China/Russia/etc

anyone here going to vote sinn féin?

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