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The NRA must be stopped

123468

Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 36 miles deas


    Thanks Sponge Bob, I'll put them into a slide in the next few days (do you need UK SSC in as well?) and if you give me your email (if that is allowed) I'll send it you. For the moment this is what I already had:

    Comparison%20UK%20Irish%20Single%20Carrigeway.png

    Sorry regarding the WS2 I think we were at cross purposes indeed it is cut from the NRA schedule but still available in the UK. I'm in contact with the Safe Roads Design team in the UK and will try to find out more about their experiences of WS2 and any pilots or barriered variants. I'm sure this has already been done but if I can bring anything new I will.

    Regarding the ongoing rant about 2+2's not being magicked into motorway the reality is I was emailed by the communications director of the NRA that they had been. He is well informed, believes passionately in his work and is now thanks to a certain Monday Drive Time episode is completely pissed off with me. Although I did not do the radio slot I did brief the man who did although what annoyed Sean was not in my brief. I can understand why he is annoyed and I can hardly approach him back to clarify said above information at the moment but one thing I would say he knows his stuff and if he says 2+2 metamorphosed into motorway then thats good enough for me. I hope I used correct terminology regarding the ROADS ACT 2007 (DECLARATION OF MOTORWAYS). I would hate to offend MYOB's sensibilities on the matter. Regarding UK D2AP and NRA type 2 the majority of the difference is in the verge and central reserve. You might drive on those bits I don't there coloured green for a reason you don't drive on the.

    Regarding Antoobrien's comment the joke is on all of us because we use this data to make decisions costing us our tax contributions. We cannot go half arsed at prioritising roads and specifying their size any more all the low lying fruit of the MIU routes are gone. We need more traffic counters and lots of them to know where to go next and to what extent. New counters are popping up on that list all the time I compiled the excel that showed falling traffic in July 2010. Speak to the CSO in Cork their data comes out soon but again methodologicly it has problems we need better data before we invest billions.

    What is your vision on future investment? I get a lot of negative **** for hours of work trying to save the country billions and get a better network. If this is what the NRA has to put up with, **** that for a game of soldiers.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 36 miles deas


    Oh, And by the way I put more hours doing 15,000 words of evidence based transport policies across the EU together to try to help the state. What the **** did you do lately to improve our lot?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,093 ✭✭✭Amtmann


    miles deas wrote: »
    Oh, And by the way I put more hours doing 15,000 words of evidence based transport policies across the EU together to try to help the state. What the **** did you do lately to improve our lot?

    Nobody here knows who you are or what you've done. You're an anonymous poster on this site just like the rest of us. Trust and respect is earned gradually on forums such as this through a combination of high quality posting and civility.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 36 miles deas


    Then rather than knocking everything I post come up with some good ideas to improve transport for less.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,093 ✭✭✭Amtmann


    By and large, posters here are under no illusions about the need to scale back the road-building plans of the NRA. I think certain schemes need to be re-prioritised or dropped. I outlined my own suggestions here, as did several other posters. You'll also find some money-saving suggestions here and here. Have a really decent read through the forum and you'll see a lot of arguments about rationalising routes, detrunking secondary roads, and scaling back certain projects. Use this thread to help you find your way around :)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 36 miles deas


    Thanks for that reading now. Still haven't found a mid sized road option. I worry about 10 years of inequality where one county gets a Rolls Royce road because their TD's are connected. Where as some back water counties get nothing. What is wrong with lowering the bar and spreading the value?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,093 ✭✭✭Amtmann


    Actually here is where I outlined my views in more detail. I'm of the opinion that we can't, as a nation, spread the jam around so widely that every county gets a bit. Upgrades must be targeted where they will provide maximum national benefit, in terms of connecting multiple regions or stimulating economic activity in areas of high population density. That's why I favour schemes like the N28 Cork to Ringaskiddy project and the N24 above the N11 Oilgate to Rosslare project for instance. I would sacrifice the N11, or scale it down, if it meant that connections between Waterford, Limerick and Galway could be improved (i.e. the N24 Pallasgreen to Cahir scheme) or that the N28 could be built. We need to pinpoint a small number of priorities and deliver an appropriate standard of road.

    I don't think any poster here favours any more long-distance Type 1 motorways beyond the M20, the M18/M17, and the M11 to south of Enniscorthy. There is debate about what is to be done about Dublin-Derry. I favour the M22 Cork North Ring, but would accept a Type 2 solution if it was all that was available. The N28 needs to be type 1 (and will be) because of its AADT and safety. But it and the proposed N22 North Ring are very short schemes. For long schemes (say >20km) seeking to upgrade N roads, type 2 dual carriageway seems best to me, for safety and efficiency reasons. This has been debated across the forum in multiple threads (all of which are tagged). This is all old ground for me, and I am already repeating what I've written many times before... signing off for now.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,571 ✭✭✭newmug


    runway16 wrote: »
    Here's a novel concept - without a proper transport system and road network (and relative to other developed countries, ours are still some way behind), you do not create good conditions for business, and as such the tax take is reduced below what it could be, meaning LESS MONEY FOR SCHOOLS AND HOSPITALS.

    Think about it....


    You're right, it IS novel!!!! Because A) for the size and population of our country, we are NOT behind other developed countries, in fact we have more road per head of population than most, and B) if the whole country was just one massive, flat, piece of tar, it takes a whole lot more than that to attract FDI's.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 69,536 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    miles deas wrote: »

    Sorry regarding the WS2 I think we were at cross purposes indeed it is cut from the NRA schedule but still available in the UK. I'm in contact with the Safe Roads Design team in the UK and will try to find out more about their experiences of WS2 and any pilots or barriered variants. I'm sure this has already been done but if I can bring anything new I will.

    UK WS2 is *still* a narrower profile than ours was. You can literally overlay a 2+2 on a recent WS2 road by fitting a barrier and changing the markings. You can't do this on a UK WS2

    Also, a "barriered WS2" is either a 2+2, or a road completely useless for any traffic at all due to an inability to pass slow moving vehicles. Slow moving vehicles do not and will not use laybys on single carriageway roads as a lengthy pilot in Donegal has shown.
    miles deas wrote: »

    Regarding the ongoing rant about 2+2's not being magicked into motorway the reality is I was emailed by the communications director of the NRA that they had been. He is well informed, believes passionately in his work and is now thanks to a certain Monday Drive Time episode is completely pissed off with me. Although I did not do the radio slot I did brief the man who did although what annoyed Sean was not in my brief. I can understand why he is annoyed and I can hardly approach him back to clarify said above information at the moment but one thing I would say he knows his stuff and if he says 2+2 metamorphosed into motorway then thats good enough for me. I hope I used correct terminology regarding the ROADS ACT 2007 (DECLARATION OF MOTORWAYS). I would hate to offend MYOB's sensibilities on the matter. Regarding UK D2AP and NRA type 2 the majority of the difference is in the verge and central reserve. You might drive on those bits I don't there coloured green for a reason you don't drive on the.

    So you can't provide any details of what 2+2's were apparently upgraded then?

    That's because there weren't any. Sean O'Neill is a PR man, he is not a roads expert. You're believing someone who works in PR over people who actually know every inch of the national route network.

    This isn't a rant, its about very basic facts. You have very basic facts wrong on this, on road types, and on safety; and you argue at length rather than accepting correction. Hence everything else you bring to the table is automatically suspect.

    miles deas wrote: »
    Thanks for that reading now. Still haven't found a mid sized road option. I worry about 10 years of inequality where one county gets a Rolls Royce road because their TD's are connected. Where as some back water counties get nothing. What is wrong with lowering the bar and spreading the value?

    We have lowered the bar. 2+2 is not an expensive road type. Anything below it is not suitable for even medium level traffic or long distance routes. WS2 is lethal and not suitable for anywhere.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,106 ✭✭✭antoobrien


    newmug wrote: »
    You're right, it IS novel!!!! Because A) for the size and population of our country, we are NOT behind other developed countries, in fact we have more road per head of population than most,

    Measuring road distance by head of population is meaningless, beancounting rubbish. Qualitatively our national road network is very poor. E.g. Travelling between Cork, Limerick & Galway (the 2nd, 3rd & 4th cities in the country) takes an inordinate amount of time because of the poor road s (structureal design & route). A friend of mine worked in Cork until Christmas, traveling to Galway reasonably frequently. It never took less than 4 hours (and since he was going west of town, he was lucky with that, cross town traffic is a mess until well after 7 in galway). A quick look at google maps using the route he takes says that this is about 200 km and should take about 2h 45m.

    Or to put it another way, it easier to get to Belfast (371 km via m50, taking 3h 46m - i believe this time figure because it's almost all multi lane road) from his family home in Galway that it is to get to Cork.
    newmug wrote: »
    and B) if the whole country was just one massive, flat, piece of tar, it takes a whole lot more than that to attract FDI's.

    You're in the roads sub forum of the infrastructure forum, go read the threads about broadband, rail, water metering etc to get a flavor of what we discuss here - nobody is advocating anything as silly as that, so if you'd like to be taken seriously don't spout rubbish like this.

    But, just to address that point - roads is a reason why factories & business are not locating to the west of Ireland (and are leaving it), so that's one reason why I'm firmly for the right roads being built.

    You've said:
    newmug wrote: »
    I'd rather see my money being spent on hospitals and schools thank you!
    We've enough hospitals around the country - what we don't have it the transport network to allow us to put services where they are needed and can be medically effective.

    I'll give two examples on this - the cancer care situation in Sligo & the North West where patients have to travel to Galway & the hospitals in Athlone - Ballinasloe & Roscommon.

    Galway & Sligo - we don't have the rail or roads system to make this care situation practical. This alone, regardless of the other considerations that come into play, make this reorganisation a silly idea because it's making it harder for patients to get the treatment they need.

    We have hospitals in Roscommon, Ballinasloe & Athlone (41, 28 & 20km away from each other, hardly 20 minutes by car) - but we can't reorganise this system to be effective because the areas they are covering have even worse transport links. So regardless of personal beliefs of the medical or economic necessity for reorganisation of hospitals to provide Better patient services (and I'm not trying to start this debate) we can't do it for practical reasons - it's hard to get the patients to these services.

    Building any new hospitals won't help improve this part of our health system (and what will is not an argument for here) - I won't speak for the national situation, but i suspect we can find similar situations across the country. Indeed, tallaght hospital is an amalgamation of a the Adelaide & Meath hospitals in Dublin. This new hospital from planning to opening took 17 years (from a wikipedia article, so i'm not sure about it's trustworthiness), so don't expect new hospitals to spring up overnight either.

    Schools are needed, both improvement/rebuilding and entirely new facilities. Building them will give a short term economic boost and provide employment (or prevent unemployment). However, they do not provide long term prospects, which, sadly our country needs.

    Personally I think we should cut spending on public wages to pay for the capital infrastructure we require (roads, rail, broadband, water, electricity etc) - because short term spending that we have to borrow to provide for isn't going to get us out of this mess.


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  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    miles deas wrote: »
    Thanks for that reading now. Still haven't found a mid sized road option.
    That was Type 3, now RIP save for a potential refit of a WS2.

    If you knock up the S Road slide just post it in here for reference. I thought the D2 slide was a damn fine representation even if we are quibbling about 'standards' just a bit. Slapping every UK and Irish S2 and D2 variant into 2 graphics is most helpful especially when Frank McD and the misc NIMBYs start their asinine ululatiing about millions of acres disappearing on us...which is not the case at all.

    This forum is not in the least fractious...save where an implication is made that the regular posters have not thought about something AT ALL. That is not the case as Tremelo pointed out. Furthermore quite a lot of regular posters have represented their views directly to the NRA at various times in the past.

    I would ask the mods to maybe slice the end of this thread out into a "Post IMF Road Design Standards" thread where it belongs, starting with the graphics of the design standards themselves.

    Then we can have a nice natter about what it all means in reality <cough> Going Forward </cough> :D


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,476 ✭✭✭ardmacha


    Or to put it another way, it easier to get to Belfast (371 km via m50, taking 3h 46m - i believe this time figure because it's almost all multi lane road) from his family home in Galway that it is to get to Cork.

    Quite right too, since Belfast and not Cork is the second biggest city in the country. Marvellous how these threads bring out Mé Feiners anxious to elevate the status of the places where they happen to live. The problems with hospitals in he North West are also largely down to this narrowminded thinking.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,106 ✭✭✭antoobrien


    ardmacha wrote: »
    Quite right too, since Belfast and not Cork is the second biggest city in the country.
    Unfortunately for that argument we don't have jurisdiction over Belfast, so sorry for you but it's not right or acceptable that we can leave this country and drive to a main regional center in another country quicker than we can drive between 2 of the main regional centers in this one


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,571 ✭✭✭newmug


    antoobrien wrote: »
    You're in the roads sub forum of the infrastructure forum, go read the threads about broadband, rail, water metering etc to get a flavor of what we discuss here - nobody is advocating anything as silly as that, so if you'd like to be taken seriously don't spout rubbish like this.

    Excuse me, but the title of the thread is "The NRA must be stopped". I happen to agree. How dare you dismiss my point as rubbish just because you disagree. Thats the height of ignorance.

    As for the quality of our road networks, I agree they need a serious overhaul. But we dont need new, extra motorways. As for your example of your freind taking 4 hours to drive from Cork to Galway, well what the hell do you expect? They're geographically a reasonably long distance apart! How long do you think it should take? Why do you think a whole new road needs to be built?

    I wont lower myself to call your point of view "spouting rubbish", but I will intelligently and respectfully point out that throwing money at roads we dont need and cant afford is not going to attract or keep any business here no more than throwing money at railways, inter-canal boat hire, or any other crazy transport scheme. Keeping business in Ireland is not the NRA's function. I will remind you again that this thread is about the NRA's wastage and the concept that they must be stopped.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    There was me thinking that this was the official Whackamole thread for dealing with whatever form of economic seppuku An Taisce/Isaac/Frank/Greens propose at any given time . :cool:


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,110 ✭✭✭KevR


    newmug wrote: »
    But we dont need new, extra motorways. As for your example of your freind taking 4 hours to drive from Cork to Galway, well what the hell do you expect? They're geographically a reasonably long distance apart! How long do you think it should take? Why do you think a whole new road needs to be built?

    I wont lower myself to call your point of view "spouting rubbish", but I will intelligently and respectfully point out that throwing money at roads we dont need and cant afford is not going to attract or keep any business here no more than throwing money at railways, inter-canal boat hire, or any other crazy transport scheme. Keeping business in Ireland is not the NRA's function. I will remind you again that this thread is about the NRA's wastage and the concept that they must be stopped.

    Regarding the first paragraph, read my post about how it is not acceptable from an economic point of view to have high journey times between nationally important economic hubs.

    Yes, we do need the M20 and M17/18. We can't afford not to have our 2nd, 3rd and 4th cities properly connected.

    Journey times of 4 hours between Galway and Cork is not good for economic activity. It's only 200km so 2 hours would be acceptable in my opinion. And don't forget that if we connect Galway and Cork we will have connected Galway to Limerick and Cork to Limerick in the process.

    Building the M20 as a new build is not wastage by the NRA. In theory, they could upgrade the existing N20. Do you honestly think this would be a cheaper option?
    • It is very costly to carry out large upgrade work on a road with a live traffic flow.
    • The work would take a lot longer (higher labour costs).
    • Detailed traffic management plans would have to be drawn up and implemented (costly!).
    • It would cause years of disruption and misery for everyone who lives on/near the route or anyone who has to use it.
    • The end result would not be as good despite it could roughly the same amount.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,284 ✭✭✭dubhthach


    newmug wrote: »

    As for the quality of our road networks, I agree they need a serious overhaul. But we dont need new, extra motorways. As for your example of your freind taking 4 hours to drive from Cork to Galway, well what the hell do you expect? They're geographically a reasonably long distance apart! How long do you think it should take? Why do you think a whole new road needs to be built?

    There is an entire thread regarding the M20 here if you need to aquaint yourself with the facts : M20

    The distance between Eyre Square in Galway to the River Lee (Carroll's Quay) is 195km. On a 4hour trip this works out as an average of 48.75kph. This has serious implications for the economic health of the entire region. In comparison it's about 196km from Eyre Square to the M50, however you can do this trip in close on half the time.

    Anyways as outlined in the M20 thread the current road is an antiquated death trap that needs to be replaced. Given that it will be linking Cork with Limerick and onward to Galway it needs to be properly future-proofed.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,106 ✭✭✭antoobrien


    newmug wrote: »
    and B) if the whole country was just one massive, flat, piece of tar, it takes a whole lot more than that to attract FDI's.
    newmug wrote: »
    How dare you dismiss my point as rubbish just because you disagree. Thats the height of ignorance.

    I just don't agree with you - you seem to be saying that we're intent on tarring the entire surface of the country. That is spouting rubbish, and to call somebody up on writing drivel like this, especially when they are not making reasoned arguments is far from ignorance. In fact where I come from thats regarded as fishing for insults.
    newmug wrote: »
    Excuse me, but the title of the thread is "The NRA must be stopped". I happen to agree.
    So what I'm not allowed disagree with the OP and thread title (as many people on here have)? As I said before (in this thread), I think we need these roads and now is the perfect time to get them built - while costs should be lower, not waiting several years until cost rise and traffic builds past unbearable levels again.

    What is it we have in his country against providing spare capacity anyways? It's not as if it's actually wasteful - what is wasteful is building a system (not just roads) that has just enough spare capacity to seem prudent but when when things actually kick off end up being not enough (M50 is a case in point with this).


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,720 ✭✭✭serfboard


    Just on the Cork-Galway thing, folks, I drove Cork->Galway before Christmas (off-peak mind).

    From the most northerly set of traffic lights on the N20 in Cork, to Oranmore took just over 2 hours. (I think about 2:15). Of course, that's precisely because the M18 is nearly all dual carriageway/motorway now and Limerick is completly bypassed.

    On the way down, Gort to Banogue took about one hour. Great progress.

    If/when we build the M18 and M20 then, as others have stated, the second, third and fourth biggest towns in this state will be linked by time-sure, safer roads.

    Also for inward investment, since we're the stop-off point for the yanks, Shannon will be less than an hour to Galway and an hour to Cork, which will be a much easier sell for the IDA in the States.

    An example of that sell is done here, where executives from a company that employs 2000 people in Galway visited the plant before Crusheen->Gort was officially opened.
    Such was the sheer magnitude and importance of the visit, the executives from the medical devices company – one of the biggest employers in the West – were given a VIP escort along the unopened stretch of the new M18 Ennis to Gort motorway, after flying into Shannon Airport from the United States.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 36 miles deas


    Regarding tremelo's point that N11 Oilgate to Rosslare project could be shelved completely. It makes the point that not cutting our cloth will affect areas differently and unfairly. Coca Cola, Celtic Linen and Danone are based there and unemployment is high. A more modest on-line mid sized road could fit. If Oilgate to Rosslare don't get shelved but get a 2+2 with finite resources the problem pushes on to some other forgotten back water that gets nothing. I'm not against roads but I am for reason. Industry makes jobs that offers people security obviously this is vital. But to keep on specifying roads from parameters derived in the economic boom will leave everybody shafted. Those who get a big new road through or near their home will be left scratching there heads as to why and then the real poor sods somewhere out in the sticks that get nothing at all while their children can watch Daddy quietly self destruct as he has no job. Parameters need to change from the boom the idea of continuing on the same projects without any cognisance to the economic collapse is somewhat perverse and surely cannot help society as a whole.

    Regarding the guy who quoted, my published facts again, that we have 2.5 more km's of motorway per head than in Britain. Your missing the point entirely. That presentation highlighted that motorways have grown by 430% from 2001-2009. Who do you think is going to pay for this? the PPP fairy? We pay for it. Astronomical growth in such a short time comes at a price and when the economy goes belly up it much harder to pay for.

    Regarding the thorn in my side, Mr MYOB. The point about the recent work that is ongoing with Prof. Edgar Morgenroth. We looked at the UK costs of Dual carriageway and WS2. We then used O'Cinneide's accident rates for the 2. After that you can show that with finite resources for a road network in dire need of upgrade more road is built and more lives saved using WS2 than DC before funds are exhausted. A little of the best is not necessarily as good as a lot more of something that is 2nd best or even 3rd. The tipping point where in fact DC offers more lives saved is a long way off so even if NRA costs are different it is unlikely they will change the overall conclusion. We used WS2 not because we wanted to push for that but because it was a useful surrogate for hopefully a better mid-sized road option.

    MYOB you maintain 2+2 has not been "made up" to motorway (notice my use of official terminology to please you) I have shown my source and the email quote from the NRA. So far pal you've shown nothing. Would you kindly provide evidence yourself to corroborate your contention, I have, an NRA quote you beat it or I win.

    Regarding the road types between UK and NRA once again you added up the grassy bits to win the point the difference in cross section is minimal the max. AADT for the UK design is 143% greater than the NRA's design. Hence I think we jump to early to motorway and for every other road type the same story. I see no value for money in the LOS of D stipulations. Those where aspirational targets that need revision with new world economics. Besides the EU are debating cutting motorway speeds as optimum car emissions occur at a lot lower than 100 kmph and this will have an effect that should also be factored in especially as even this years EPA CO2 forecasts accounting for economic downturn have us paying the EU piper for carbon credits come 2020. That forecast is the additional measures scenario that includes Smarter Travel policy being met and no increase in car traffic from 2009 to 2020. I would rather invest now in our own infrastructure and policy and meet the targets than come 2020 pay money to the EU to give to another nation and still find ourselves at a deficit on carbon emission measures to meet the 2030 target. Missing those targets and giving away money to end up with even further to go to meet the next set of targets is not a good value for money option.

    Regarding the safety. Which bit was I wrong on was it the safety BCR of motorway showing greater cost than benefit from the handbook of road safety measures edited by Rune Elvik? You know that books editor is world renowned and a thoroughly nice guy to speak to, I might add. I sent him some figures on a road local to me and he was unimpressed with the idea it needed the road design likely to be specified. But anyway Fred Wegman thought the book as "indispensable" an lots more nice comments when he reviewed it. You know Fred he was the one we asked to report on the safety of our roads in 2002 an official government report. Or was it the fact that EuroRAP considers 50% of our non-motorway roads are at the lowest 1 star rating when NI has only 5% and GB 2% 1 star roads. Or was it the official figures on rate of return on low cost safety improvements offering and annual rate of return of on average 502%. What are you talking about? I offered a good value for money alternative to get more funding. What is your beef on a change in emphasis to favour more investment on an existing policy measure that has shown good economic returns when a clear infrastructural deficit has been demonstrated. Even Fred Barry recognised that in the Dail Transport Committee on the 12th of Jan.:

    Fred%20Barry%20Transport%20Committee%2012-01-11.png

    Someone mentoined Grada and RSA investment offers highest rate of returns on safety. I agree Ireland won a PIN award last year with not a mention of motorways all praise for the above and lots of evidence education and enforcement offer best rate of returns on safety. But that is not to say that driver behaviour the major problem cannot be mitigated against in certain circumstances by road improvement it too has a roll as stated above. I think something good might be going on in the NRA that is moving forward but bugger me its only a vague notion if there is some thread about post IMF standards I cannot find it. If they already have it in the pipeline I'm rattling the NRA's cage for no good reason and wasting a lot of time to boot. So someone take pity and fill me in.

    Regarding prices of different road types can anyone point me to facts on that? It would be really useful. I know all that guff about depends on conditions but for a broad presentation on the mater of decisions for developing a mid-sized road it would be useful. I would like to start with reasonable assumptions on cost of SSC WS2 Type 1,2 & 3 and the motorways.

    Regarding value for money on buying land now a building later what about the ongoing maintenance cost of road. What about the fact the politicians will get crucified by the public buying land and leaving it fallow when any service that is cut or tax that is risen will be juxtapositioned with it. Or the ongoing ghost road situation gets worse. Not just by the environmental lobby but by any guy with a gripe. What is worse, say when you came to build but appraisal in the future says the best route option would actually be something else. Your then left with a choice stick to the original land and route option giving poor value to the state or sell back the land. The public uproar would be huge. Some of you guys do this for a living, I guess, what do you think?

    Sponge regarding the economic seppuku and wackamole comment. No one has all the answers not you or me but a bit of information sharing and dialogue and maybe some new ideas can be nothing but useful. I'm putting that slide together did you see the SSC slide I posted last, I'll add to that.

    I'm looking for a little help to put together as robust a case as I can to the NRA particularly re a mid-sized road option. I don't know for sure what they are already doing so I won't risk not pushing this forward but I'll do it in a formative way. Some help with relative costs of road types will be really useful it will save me having to change the figures on the fly when I meet them.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,107 ✭✭✭nordydan


    ardmacha wrote: »
    Quite right too, since Belfast and not Cork is the second biggest city in the country. Marvellous how these threads bring out Mé Feiners anxious to elevate the status of the places where they happen to live. The problems with hospitals in he North West are also largely down to this narrowminded thinking.

    Many people from the Republic are very a la carte about Irishness, as regards to NI.

    Note the whinging on another thread about not getting salt out of the Carrickfergus mines. All of a sudden, Antrim is part of the nation. We must have that salt!:mad:

    Then when it comes to boosting the importance of connecting Cork & Galway, its the 2nd & 4th cities (as opposed to the 3rd & 6th). The scope of the nation is defined again. :D

    The border appears and disappears a la carte, depending on the argument.
    antoobrien wrote: »
    ...but it's not right or acceptable that we can leave this country and drive to a main regional center in another country quicker than we can drive between 2 of the main regional centers in this one

    Nonsense argument. Should it be quicker to drive from Sligo (main regional center) to Cork (main regional center) , than from Sligo to Derry (main regional center "in another country")?

    Actual physical distance between cities must be of some importance, regardless of their size


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,284 ✭✭✭dubhthach


    Miles,

    Here are the threads regarding interurban schemes that were upgraded to Motorway status. They contain detailed photos of the schemes as all stages of planning and construction. As you can see none of these schemes are built to 2+2 (Type 2 Dualcarriageway) standard.


    M3 - Clonee to Kells.

    M6 - Kilbeggan to Athlone.


    M6 - Athlone to Ballinasloe.

    M6 - Ballinasloe to Galway.

    M7 - Nenagh to Limerick.

    M7 - Castletown to Nenagh.

    M7/M8 Portlaoise-Castletown-Cullahill Motorway (incl. Abbeyleix Bypass).

    M8 - Cashel to Mitchelstown.

    M8 - Cashel to Cullahill.

    M8 - Mitchelstown to Fermoy.


    M9 - Waterford motorway construction updates

    M11 - Arklow/Gorey Bypass.

    N18 - Limerick Tunnel & South Ring Road Phase II.

    M18 - Gort to Crusheen.

    M50 Upgrade - Phase 2.

    The list above is taken from this thread started by Tremelo


    Here are the relevant acts of the Oireachtas giving motorway status:
    http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2009/en/si/0255.html
    http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2008/en/si/0279.html

    I believe these trump any email you may or may not have received from a person who works in "PR"


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,106 ✭✭✭antoobrien


    nordydan wrote: »
    Many people from the Republic are very a la carte about Irishness, as regards to NI.

    Note the whinging on another thread about not getting salt out of the Carrickfergus mines. All of a sudden, Antrim is part of the nation. We must have that salt!:mad:

    Then when it comes to boosting the importance of connecting Cork & Galway, its the 2nd & 4th cities (as opposed to the 3rd & 6th). The scope of the nation is defined again. :D

    The border appears and disappears a la carte, depending on the argument.

    Nordydan since the republic doesn't "own" the 6 counties, we can't spend money there - hence my rankings. It may look a la carte, but it is the political reality, wether or not we like it. If & when that changes, and derry and belfast's economic activities start filling an all-island coffer I'll change my rankings. What other people do/say is neither mine to change, not any of my concern.

    nordydan wrote: »
    Nonsense argument. Should it be quicker to drive from Sligo (main regional center) to Cork (main regional center) , than from Sligo to Derry (main regional center "in another country")?

    Actual physical distance between cities must be of some importance,
    regardless of their size

    If you're going to dismiss something at least take a right look at what you're dismissing. Here's a more detailed quote from the original post I made, which ardmacha partially quoted:
    antoobrien wrote: »
    A friend of mine worked in Cork until Christmas, traveling to Galway reasonably frequently. It never took less than 4 hours (and since he was going west of town, he was lucky with that, cross town traffic is a mess until well after 7 in galway). A quick look at google maps using the route he takes says that this is about 200 km and should take about 2h 45m.

    Or to put it another way, it easier to get to Belfast (371 km via m50, taking 3h 46m - i believe this time figure because it's almost all multi lane road) from his family home in Galway that it is to get to Cork.

    As you can Galway to Cork is a little more than HALF the distance of Galway to Belfast. As other posters have stated, this is not a particularly good thing economically. And if we ever do become an all-island economic entity transport links such as the atlantic corridor (Letterkenny to Cork to Rosslare, to that we could then add in Derry) will be even more vital


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    Miles, can you add a land take per KM figure to your road type slides, eg Type 1 SC is c.18m excluding berms but adding verges so add a standard nominal berm total to all carriageway and verge widths for a total which when x 1000 = sq metre per km and divide by hectares gives a total Ha per km.

    Yes I know that will be an offline figure and that online is different. Pick an assumptive number for the berms and tell us what it is for the record. I would think 4m maybe.

    The green loonies seem to think that the land take for any road type is in the 1000s of acres per km which is utter hysteria but sadly also a reoccuring meme with that shower of sociopathic loolaas. :(


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,686 ✭✭✭✭Zubeneschamali


    Sponge Bob wrote: »
    shower of sociopathic loolaas. :(

    Careful, now! :pac:


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 69,536 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    miles deas wrote: »
    Regarding the thorn in my side, Mr MYOB. The point about the recent work that is ongoing with Prof. Edgar Morgenroth. We looked at the UK costs of Dual carriageway and WS2. We then used O'Cinneide's accident rates for the 2. After that you can show that with finite resources for a road network in dire need of upgrade more road is built and more lives saved using WS2 than DC before funds are exhausted. A little of the best is not necessarily as good as a lot more of something that is 2nd best or even 3rd. The tipping point where in fact DC offers more lives saved is a long way off so even if NRA costs are different it is unlikely they will change the overall conclusion. We used WS2 not because we wanted to push for that but because it was a useful surrogate for hopefully a better mid-sized road option.

    The UK costs are not even vaguely useful in this scenario, as you have been repeatedly told, due to the road profiles not being the same as built here.

    2+2 *is* the "mid-sized road option". You just won't accept this as you have some ulterior motive going on.
    miles deas wrote: »
    MYOB you maintain 2+2 has not been "made up" to motorway (notice my use of official terminology to please you) I have shown my source and the email quote from the NRA. So far pal you've shown nothing. Would you kindly provide evidence yourself to corroborate your contention, I have, an NRA quote you beat it or I win.

    You have a misquote and a vague reference to a PR guy agreeing with you.

    You are claiming the impossible - a 2+2 is not of the standard to allow it being reclassified as motorway. Also, every inch of reclassified road is detailed in Statutory Instruments and it can be shown that every inch of this is Standard or HQ DC, not 2+2.

    You may notice that everyone else here says you're wrong on this too - you just seem to be picking me out as I've found gaping holes in other things you've claimed as fact and you're desperate to defend them.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,093 ✭✭✭Amtmann


    Miles Deas: You will find in those Oireachtas Transport Committee transcripts a statement by Fred Barry that Type 2 Dual Carriageway costs approximately 6.5-7 million per kilometre as opposed to 5 million per kilometre for WS2.

    Now we're getting into soapboxing territory here, so I'm going to clarify this for once and for all:

    "2+2" technically means any dual carriageway. These days, however, it almost always refers to Type 2 Dual Carriageway. NO Type 2 Dual Carriageways were ever redesignated motorways by the NRA. When Sean O'Neill told you that 2+2s were redesignated as motorways, he meant non type 2 dual carriageway schemes, such as the Cashel Bypass, Limerick South Ring, Newmarket-on-Fergus Bypass, the Cashel-Cullahill scheme, Crusheen to Gort, Ashbourne, Watergrasshill and Glanmire Bypasses. Had these been Type 2 dual carriageway, they would not have been redesignated because they do not meet the standard.

    Lastly, the NRA has NO plans to build another 800km of motorway, as claimed by Cress and Plan Better. It is FALSE to claim that. The NRA has plans to build many kilometres of Type 2 Dual Carriageway, but NOT 800km of motorway. If people don't accept this fact, on this thread, I'll start infracting.

    I have tried to arrange a Boards.ie interview with the NRA for this forum several times, but have been unsuccessful. I would like to put many questions to them actually.

    But in terms of their plans to build any more Type 1 dual carriageways, aka 'motorway standard' roads, all I can think of are the following:

    M17/M18 Gort to south of Tuam: 50km approx
    M20 Limerick to Cork: 100km approx
    M11 Gorey to Enniscorthy: 30km
    M11 Arklow-Rathnew: 16.3km
    N28 Cork-Ringaskiddy: 13km
    N22 Cork North Ring: 20km approx

    As far as I know, the N25 New Ross Bypass, the Oilgate to Rosslare scheme and the Galway Outer Bypass will be type 2 dual carriageway, or will have at grade junctions/roundabouts, and therefore not consist of type 1 road. I'm open to correction on these three schemes, but even if I'm wrong, you still will not be able to reach that 800km claimed by Plan Better.
    Other proposed upgrades to primary routes such as the N2 (Slane Bypass), N21, N22, N24, and N25 will be Type 2 dual carriageway, which is 30% cheaper to build per kilometre than Type 1 and which cannot be redesignated to motorway.

    Now because Plan Better espoused a factually bogus claim that 800km of new motorway is planned, their views are rightly open to attack and ridicule. They should retract that statement forthwith.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,963 ✭✭✭Chris_5339762


    Galway bypass will be Type 1 if it ever gets built.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,093 ✭✭✭Amtmann


    Galway bypass will be Type 1 if it ever gets built.

    It will have a few at-grade roundabouts:
    The proposed N6 Galway City Outer Bypass is
    21.4 km long and stretches from An Baile Nua in
    the West to Garraun townland in the East where
    it joins the proposed N6 Galway to Ballinasloe
    Scheme. The Scheme mainline consists of 21.4
    km of predominantly high quality dual carriageway.
    In addition, there are 7.6 km of realigned
    national, regional and local roads and a 1.4 km
    Western Distributor Link Road. There are 13
    new bridges, including a new River Corrib
    crossing, 3 grade separated junctions and 4 new
    roundabout junctions.

    Taken from attached pdf.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    I would not be too sure about the western section, which is not even in redesign cos no money was allocated :) The N59-Airport section, yes.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 69,536 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    As long as the junction *with* the N59 isn't a RAB, that should be sufficient. A motorway grade DC serving an R road would seem odd under any circumstances.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 36 miles deas


    Tremelo, I didn't make the claim on the 800km's. It was not in my briefing. I have spoken to Sean in the NRA on the matter though, on the phone if not face to face. I took it like a man so please don't infarct me. I'm not Planbetter. I give information to James Nix of Planbetter. I had tried till I was blue in the face to give it direct to the NRA, no joy. James takes the information.

    Regarding Mr MYOB and the exalting (notice for your sake I use the latest official term) I think I may after looking at the first motorway on the list dubhthach kindly posted have written proof see if you follow the logic. In 2008 the M3/N3 scheme is either motorway or Type 2 dual carriageway, see below:

    M3-N3_Clonee-Kells_2008.png
    see, link.

    we know that the exalted to motorway bit must therefore be Type 2 at this moment because you cannot exalt to motorway what is already motorway. The exaltation occurs in 2009, see below:

    Declaration%20Motorway%20N3%20%202009.png

    see, link.

    See the exalted bit on the map its on the scheme, see below:

    N3%20to%20M3%202009%20%281%29.png

    N3%20to%20M3%202009%20%282%29.png

    So If the first on on the list is Type 2 that is sufficient to prove the case. Lets get back to serious consideration of mid-sized road options. Sponge Bob I promise to get that slide to you but only when Mr MYOB agrees to stop bugging me on the type 2 to motorway conundrum. Notice how I always try to show the proof of what I say on the forum when I brief I do my best to be accurate when I'm in error or there is doubt as Mr Antoobrien showed I accept it although I think Mr Antoobrien has shown really they are all guessing on the figures.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    The Type 2 section is the section North of Kells Miles ??? The section you showed in your map is Type 1 ....and I will bet my many many pores on it :D

    Oh look , another MAP . I will further bet that none of the bits marked in RED on that Map are designated as Motorway even though I never druv that M3/N3 .


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,284 ✭✭✭dubhthach


    As Sponge Bob pointed out the section you are showing on your map is Type 1 motorway with hard shoulders and Concrete crash barriers. The project consisted of the M3 Motorway (Type 1) to Kells. The Kells bypass was built as part of the same project however it starts at a roundabout (where the M3 ends) and consists of 2+2 (Type 2) carriageway around Kells.

    It is signed as the N3 and is not a motorway. I would have thought the fact that the NRA used a + sign was obvious that the scheme consisted of both Motorway and 2+2.

    There is a video that can be found on youtube that is linked to this post by privateBeavis on the M3 thread here: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=66270272&postcount=771



    This clearly shows that the route you are showing maps for is Type 1.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    It also shows that the NRA were not gung ho building motorways everywhere they possibly could.

    Around when the M3/N3 sections were initially designed the AADT was between 12000 south of Kells, up to 30,000 on the Meath/Dublin border and 9000 north of Kells P 8 of 26 !!!

    It was arguable that Motorways was overkill north of Kells and funnily enough no Motorway was built. Nevertheless something better than S2 was required...even at that time.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,867 ✭✭✭SeanW


    I just drove the M3/N3 through Meath and Dublin a few days ago, so I know from personal experience that what I've read about it is true.

    The total scheme, from Clonee to North of Kells, I believe, was built as one scheme, however with two parts:
    1) The Motorway, from the existing Clonee Bypass (itself now motorway) to just South of Kells, where the M3 ends.
    2) A 2+2 section continuing from the end of the M3 to the Meath Cavan border (the "North of Kells" bit). This section is not under motorway regulations, for reasons which would be obvious if you had the slightest clue what you were talking about.

    Your own first graphic clearly demonstrates that this was the intention i.e. "Motorway + Type 2 Dual Carriageway" i.e. the project planned for both types to be used, as they are at different parts of the project.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,284 ✭✭✭dubhthach


    Sponge Bob wrote: »
    It also shows that the NRA were not gung ho building motorways everywhere they possibly could.

    Around when the M3/N3 sections were initially designed the AADT was between 12000 south of Kells, up to 30,000 on the Meath/Dublin border and 9000 north of Kells P 8 of 26 !!!

    It was arguable that Motorways was overkill north of Kells and funnily enough no Motorway was built. Nevertheless something better than S2 was required...even at that time.

    Yeah I agree, personally I wasn't in favour of the M3 the could probably have gotten away with 2+2 for most of the route. Either that or they shouldn't have built the M2/n2 and instead built some sort of hybrid in the middle route which would have replaced the old N2/N3. Awh well what's built is built.

    I think they (NRA) definitely took a leaf out of Charlie McCreevy's "book"
    “When I have it, I spend it and when I don’t, I don’t”

    There is also the fact that the M3 runs through a certain former Minister of Transport constituency tsk


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 36 miles deas


    You can see the word Clonee in the bottom right of my map and the M3 sections just on from it. If I'm wrong I'll admit it but I don't think I am, see below:

    Map%20of%20littlepace.png


    Littlepace%20to%20Lousallagh.png

    Lousallagh%20to%20Pace.png

    Kells%20Clonee.png

    Never bet your pores you may need them. I certainly don't want them. I don't think I'm wrong on location what other quibble next? It took me 10 minutes with this response open and I can feel the sharks circling.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    He has a clue Seán, the problem is a misunderstanding of what a Type 2 is.

    The NRA published this handy brochure with colour pics which is dead clear. Around here we use Type 2 and 2+2 INTERCHANGEABLY = Same Thing. From that doc it is clear that 2+2 is a Midband road architecture in preference to Type3 2+1 , neither high end nor low end.
    There is a large gap, in terms of capacity, cost and safety, between the standard single carriageway and a dual
    carriageway with at grade junctions. This has led the NRA to develop other new divided road categories, which
    provide a capacity range between that of a single carriageway and a dual carriageway, i.e. between 11,600 and
    26,500 AADT.

    Transport 21 sets out the development of some 1200km of the National Primary road network to
    dual-carriageway/motorway standard, which some 1600 km of the National primary road network in Ireland will
    remain as single-carriageway roads due to relatively low traffic volumes. Given the need to provide for vehicles to
    safely overtake slower moving traffic on two-way roads in a safe and controlled environment the Authority looked
    to other countries to see if different divided road types could be introduced in Ireland

    Very little Type 2 has been built, notably only north of Kells and Dromod. None of it has been designated Motorway and speeds of over 100kph are not to be permitted on it owing to inherent design constraints.

    It is designed to ensure reasonably constant 90-100kph speeds unlike the broadly similar WS2 where some blind doddering ignoramus in a Micra can hold the traffic back at 40kph thereby increasing driver frustration and causing accidents...because we have no explicit "move over" laws

    WS2 is really a sop to a once powerful Irish farming lobby, a historic design artefact in effect. Complete waste of space to my mind given driving standards here :(


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,284 ✭✭✭dubhthach


    miles deas wrote: »
    You can see the word Clonee in the bottom right of my map and the M3 sections just on from it. If I'm wrong I'll admit it but I don't think I am, see below:

    <--snip-->

    Never bet your pores you may need them. I certainly don't want them. I don't think I'm wrong on location what other quibble next? It took me 10 minutes with this response open and I can feel the sharks circling.

    Littlespace to Loughsalla was built in the early 90's. Please have a look at the 1995 aerial pictures on the Ordance Survey of Ireland website:
    http://maps.osi.ie/publicviewer/#V1,703964,741490,5,5

    Here's a screenshot of the 1995 Ordance survey aerial overlay.
    littlespace-loughsalla.png

    2+2 (Type 2) didn't even exist as a design spec in Ireland in the early 90's. This road was built as wide-median dual carriageway. The motorway order you are referencing is the changing of it's status from N3 to M3.

    As for sharks we are in general nice people here. However you can understand how people can be annoyed when repeated items of evidence are produce and you still keep making mistaken comments over where the 2+2 (Type 2) section of the scheme is.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,867 ✭✭✭SeanW


    Google Maps isn't very accurate in relation to the M3, GM shows the M3 ending too far South (of Kells), and starting North of Dunboyne which is also wrong (it starts closer to the city).

    As to the sections of N3 which are dual carriageway but not motorway:
    1) The N3 from South of Kells to the Meath-Cavan border has no hard shoulders and is interrupted by roundabouts.
    2) The N3 from Clonee into the City comprises firstly of the Blanchardstown Bypass, largely Type 1 DC but with bus lanes and the like in parts, a partially grade separated junction with the M50, then finally a section of urban dual carriageway, before becoming city streets.

    Edit: for a more accurate view of the M3/N3, have a look at OpenStreetMap:


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,600 ✭✭✭veryangryman


    Oh lord there are just some people who will not see... I guess Jesus loves them anyway...

    Tremolo, sorry for trolling, im just trying to fit in with the way the thread is heading...


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 69,536 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    miles deas wrote: »
    In 2008 the M3/N3 scheme is either motorway or Type 2 dual carriageway, see below:

    The Type 2 is new build from Kells to the Meath border. The redesignated section was 1990s build standard DC.

    No Type 2 was redesignated. Anywhere.

    When are you just going to accept you're wrong on this? I'm only "bugging you" because this is one of the many things you're wrong on, and only one where you thought you could "prove" yourself right if you tried hard enough.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 69,536 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Oh, btw - Pace is actually a significant distance away from Littlepace. Its north of Dunboyne.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    Anyway this planbetter is anything but, it is a front for bog standard loony greens with a respectable name ...that's all. We do need a debate on extent of the tiger era 2+2 program, notably the N24 N25 N21 N22 N5 N15 N2 N3 N4 and N17 schemes. No Motorway is proposed save on key Intercity corridors like Galway - Cork, North of Enniscorthy and south of Ashford and less justifiably south of Enniscorthy where the argument is weak and where 2+2 Offline would appear to suffice.

    However that debate should trend towards proper planning and road safety and not towards the economically illiterate idiot nimbyism we hear from the usual suspects :(


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 36 miles deas


    Sponge I'm not advocating WS2 as I said the study used it as a surrogate for some other mid AADT alternative. Look I just want you clever road chaps to put your thinking caps on for an alternative. Harness the enthusiasm and actually come up with a new road layout. They'll never listern to me anyway so humour me or I'll stop responding and you'll only have 1 comment seppuku loving surrender monkeys (Sponges descriptor I think) to kick about. I have a meeting mid March you wanted a meeting well I've got one. regarding quotes like Sponges last I got one too:

    Interim%20Road%20Design%202006%209%2C1%20-%20NRA.png

    Its from the NRA in 2006. They adapted to new economics in 2007. Now its time to adapt again. The gap between SSC and Dual Carriageway needs to be filled again. We need a low cost alternative. If you humour me and design a low cost mid-sized road I'll let one of you give me a Chinese burn now you know that's why you populate this thread. Can someone just contact the NRA and get written clarification and post the email please.

    dubhthach, that movie was really interesting remind me never to come over to yours for beers and a video. Lord knows what it all meant. its like having a trip on speed.

    Tremelo can you point me to that Dail costings quote?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 69,536 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    miles deas wrote: »

    Its from the NRA in 2006. They adapted to new economics in 2007. Now its time to adapt again. The gap between SSC and Dual Carriageway needs to be filled again. We need a low cost alternative. If you humour me and design a low cost mid-sized road I'll let one of you give me a Chinese burn now you know that's why you populate this thread. Can someone just contact the NRA and get written clarification and post the email please.

    They didn't "adapt to new economics". The adapted to the abject failure of 2+1 once trialled in Ireland. Four schemes were tried, none have worked. One (N24 Piltown) is verifiably more dangerous than the road it replaced in pure road death figures, this despite massive improvements in car standards and reductions in drink driving.

    You don't know a thing about roads, and you're making this clearer by the minute.

    2+2 is the only mid-sized road format we're going to get. Accept it, just like you need to accept that they've never been reclassified as motorway.

    If you'd put down your UK pricebook you could maybe accept that they cost little less than your beloved, yet lethal, WS2 too.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 36 miles deas


    Economics, lets talk about Optimism Bias uplifts on major projects after we've built the MYOB inter connector mid-sized road option.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 69,536 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    miles deas wrote: »
    Economics, lets talk about Optimism Bias uplifts on major projects after we've built the MYOB inter connector mid-sized road option.

    ye wha?


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 36 miles deas


    A little quote from another road authority:
    "Managing Down Costs on Highway Schemes

    Idea 224 - Defer Widening By Allowing Hard-Shoulder Running"

    Its no the idea its the sentiment hundreds of radical ideas to save money. Now why can't we do the same fellas? lets design a road.


This discussion has been closed.
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