The NRA must be stopped

Cress

From today's Irish Times - 'Claim that roads body still buying farmland' - http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2010/1227/1224286317335.html


The NRA are a bunch of 1970s dinosaurs who are living on another planet of limitless resource consumption and happy motoring.

Like the construction bubble, the roads-building programme in Ireland was a colossal environmental, societal and economic folly and any future road planning should be completely halted and the NRA wound down.

There is a global environmental emergency and Ireland, no less than any developed country in the world, needs to dramatically reduce its car use and driving, and start getting about in ways which are in harmony with society and the planet. The NRA appear to know nothing about carbon emissions and the end of the cheap energy era.

Ireland's car use and car dependency is chronically high; traffic levels in urban areas are intolerable, and a walk on a country road is becoming impossible because of speeding vehicles.

Yet, instead of doing everything to curb this socially futureless existence, a government-sponsored body (the NRA) was aiding and facilitating it by building more and bigger roads, and in the process destroying unspoilt natural landscapes and ecology and inhibiting Ireland's ability to meet greenhouse-gas requirements.

Environmentally, the NRA's orgy of roadbuilding being overlaid on years of bad planning and sprawl was like the firebombing of Japan in World War II being followed by its nuclear bombing.

There will be future inquires into the scandal of the National Road-building Programme of the noughties, while the roads themselves roads lie empty with cracking surfaces in the post-cheap energy era. It should be completely stopped now before another cent is spent.

Chris_5339762

Right, where to begin with this rant (possibly a troll).

The NRA are a bunch of 1970s dinosaurs who are living on another planet of limitless resource consumption and happy motoring.

No they arent.

Like the construction bubble, the roads-building programme in Ireland was a colossal environmental, societal and economic folly and any future road planning should be completely halted and the NRA wound down.

No it shouldnt. Roads are part of the overall solution and help public transport. Think of the benefits the M4/6 has given to Galway - Dublin buses. Also, try driving on the N20. It wasnt a folly it was just about the only good thing the government actually did.

There is a global environmental emergency no there isnt and Ireland, no less than any developed country in the world, needs to dramatically reduce its car use and driving, and start getting about in ways which are in harmony with society and the planet. The NRA appear to know nothing about carbon emissions and the end of the cheap energy era.

Nor seemingly do you. Think of everyone sitting at Newlands Cross and how their cars are idling, where a car is most inefficiant. How much better it will be in every respect when that junction is fixed. Also, you'd like everyone to keep slowing down and stopping in every two-bit town on a national route rather than travelling at a speed that the car is most efficent at?

Ireland's car use and car dependency is chronically high; traffic levels in urban areas are intolerable, and a walk on a country road is becoming impossible because of speeding vehicles.

Its not chronically high, but we have a distributed society where cars are required. The urban areas could have much better public transport though.

Yet, instead of doing everything to curb this socially futureless existence, a government-sponsored body (the NRA) was aiding and facilitating it by building more and bigger roads, and in the process destroying unspoilt natural landscapes and ecology and inhibiting Ireland's ability to meet greenhouse-gas requirements.

Roads that were necessary in the most case. And no, the landscape isnt unspoint because of roads (narrow pieces of tar) it is ruined because of bad planning and an obsession with one off housing.

Environmentally, the NRA's orgy of roadbuilding being overlaid on years of bad planning and sprawl was like the firebombing of Japan in World War II being followed by its nuclear bombing.

I'm not even going to comment on this nonsense.

There will be future inquires into the scandal of the National Road-building Programme of the noughties, while the roads themselves roads lie empty with cracking surfaces in the post-cheap energy era. It should be completely stopped now before another cent is spent.

No there wont and nor should it. Ask just about anyone except for the hippies and they'll be delighted about the motorway program and will look forward to the gaps being filled.

All in all, a totally uninformed rant. :cool:

Cress

I might have predicted this reply glancing down through the threads in the 'Roads' section. Is it about discussion on roads or about uncritical celebration of road building?

Another point: we are ending up with roads officials from the USA (Sean what's-his-name who's been on the news about the snow lately, and another one who spoke on Nationwide recently) where the post-war road prgramme is now recognised as a failed experiment in human ecology. For more on this google James Howard Kunstler and the 'national automobile slum'.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q1ZeXnmDZMQ

Hank_Jones

Hmmmm now you're bordering on being a bigot.

God forbid that someone from the U.S should ever get a job in Ireland,
it's not like any Irish ever went over there....

Cress

Oh spare me that particular cliche!! The point is: We are using those involved in a failed soceital experiment - ie. the North-American, post-war, suburban sprawl / motor car-borne soceity - to replicate that soceity here.

Sleepwalking Into the Future

by James Howard Kunstler

Years from now, the denizens of Long Island may shake their heads in wonder and nausea as they attempt to repair the mighty mess that was made here during the 20th century. My term for this mess is the national automobile slum. I think it’s more precise than the usual generic term suburban sprawl. A slum, after all, is clearly understood to be a place that offers a very low quality of life. And the mess is everywhere. Every corner of our nation is now afflicted. The on-ramps of Hempstead aren’t any more spiritually rewarding than the ones in Beverly Hills. We’ve become a United Parking Lot of America.

We have utterly relinquished the everyday world of our nation to the automobile. I don’t think it is possible to overstate the damage that this has done to us collectively as a civilization and as individual souls. The national automobile slum is a place where the past has been obliterated and the future has been foreclosed. Since past represents our memories and the future our hope, life in a car slum is life with no memory and no hope. How many of us can gaze out over a typical highway strip like the Jericho Turnpike and imagine a hopeful future for it or for the people who will have to live with it?

Suburbia sends out a message of overwhelming hopelessness: “no future here.” Teenagers, who are struggling to develop a meaningful view of life, are especially susceptible to this grim message and are apt to personalize it. If my surroundings have no future, than there is no place for me and I have no future. It is inevitable that such conditions would provoke tremendous anxiety and depression. Add to this the fact that teenagers are just discovering their adult power to act decisively and you have a recipe for the carrying out of tragic deeds.

Edit: Kunstler's blog - http://www.kunstler.com/index.php

roosterman71

Oh spare me that particular cliche!! The point is: We are using those involved in a failed soceital experiment - ie. the North-American, post-war, suburban sprawl / motor car-borne soceity - to replicate that soceity here.


Quote:
Sleepwalking Into the Future

by James Howard Kunstler

Years from now, the denizens of Long Island may shake their heads in wonder and nausea as they attempt to repair the mighty mess that was made here during the 20th century. My term for this mess is the national automobile slum. I think it’s more precise than the usual generic term suburban sprawl. A slum, after all, is clearly understood to be a place that offers a very low quality of life. And the mess is everywhere. Every corner of our nation is now afflicted. The on-ramps of Hempstead aren’t any more spiritually rewarding than the ones in Beverly Hills. We’ve become a United Parking Lot of America.

We have utterly relinquished the everyday world of our nation to the automobile. I don’t think it is possible to overstate the damage that this has done to us collectively as a civilization and as individual souls. The national automobile slum is a place where the past has been obliterated and the future has been foreclosed. Since past represents our memories and the future our hope, life in a car slum is life with no memory and no hope. How many of us can gaze out over a typical highway strip like the Jericho Turnpike and imagine a hopeful future for it or for the people who will have to live with it?

Suburbia sends out a message of overwhelming hopelessness: “no future here.” Teenagers, who are struggling to develop a meaningful view of life, are especially susceptible to this grim message and are apt to personalize it. If my surroundings have no future, than there is no place for me and I have no future. It is inevitable that such conditions would provoke tremendous anxiety and depression. Add to this the fact that teenagers are just discovering their adult power to act decisively and you have a recipe for the carrying out of tragic deeds.


Edit: Kunstler's blog - http://www.kunstler.com/index.php

veryangryman

Motorways are a failed idea? Seriously quit hogging the egg nog this Christmas man

Good to see Mysterious back in any case. The forum was getting less exciting without these raving nonsensical posts. Always fun to put them in their place of course :pac:

Sponge Bob

I always thought Mysterious was a pro motorway loony not an anti motorway loony in fairness

dubhthach

As far as I know Seán O'Neill's parents are from Connemara. He is as Irish as anyone here. To follow up on what Hank said, heaven forbid an irishman might get a job in the American equivalent of the NRA (Sure that wouldn't be allowed now would it? :rolleyes: )

Aside from that given that land value as crashed it's surely the perfect time to buy land for future schemes. It's a pity that the land for the inter-urbans wasn't bought 20years ago as it would have saved 100's of millions due to inflated land values caused by the Bubble.

As for "environmental argument" surely cars travelling at a constant speed on a Motorway are considerably less polutting then idling while crawling through one village after another?

Tailors Hall

I think you all misinterpret the article; nobody is saying that roads are bad; they are a necessary component of any balanced transport system.

In the past five years the inter-urban motorway network has effectively linked Belfast with Cork and Dublin with Galway. Given the population distribution it is fair to say that Ireland now has an inter-urban network.

The authors of the article make a very fair point; why should funds be deployed buying land for schemes that there is no money to pay for them. A lot of these projects were spurious, in the extreme even when the exchequer was rolling in cash; building a motorway to Tuam a town of 3,000 people at a cost of hundreds of millions, oh dear... And before anyone trots out Atlantic Corridor, Tallaght has a population exceeding every town from Claregalway to Letterkenny combined and survives with a tram link.

I suspect the IMF will end this madness before more untrained people are forced to emmigrate on the N17 because they were no prospects of spending a couple of years on a course because funds were blown on a road scheme serving a town with a population of 3,000 people.

-Corkie-

Sponge Bob wrote: »

I always thought Mysterious was a pro motorway loony not an anti motorway loony in fairness

Wasnt his name Mire of gloom or something...:D:D

Tech3

Tailors Hall wrote: »

A lot of these projects were spurious, in the extreme even when the exchequer was rolling in cash; building a motorway to Tuam a town of 3,000 people at a cost of hundreds of millions, oh dear... And before anyone trots out Atlantic Corridor, Tallaght has a population exceeding every town from Claregalway to Letterkenny combined and survives with a tram link.

I suspect the IMF will end this madness before more untrained people are forced to emmigrate on the N17 because they were no prospects of spending a couple of years on a course because funds were blown on a road scheme serving a town with a population of 3,000 people.

Wow what a silly rant. In case you dont know this road scheme which will start constuction ealy next year and will connect our 3rd and 4th largest cities by motorway/dual carriageway standard road.

On the M17 part well then you obviously havnt travelled on this route before. It is inept for a national primary road linking effectively the north and south of the country west corridor with a goat track. The new road will benefit people from Kerry, Cork, Limerick, Clare, Tipperary, Mayo, Galway, Roscommon, Sligo and Donegal to name just a few counties.

Now there is extra traffic involved. N5 traffic may instead go N17/M17/M6/M4 on the direction to dublin as the route would be much better from certain areas around the west of Ireland. The M17 will bring significant improvements to transport in Ireland whether you like it or not.

Ren2k7

The OP should also remember that over the next 10-20 years enormous steps will be taken to get cars to run exclusively on plug in electric power rendering discussion on the environmental impact of cars moot.

With greater efficiency in cars, motorists will be making far greater use of motorways than today.

Tailors Hall

tech2 wrote: »

Wow what a silly rant. In case you dont know this road scheme which will start constuction ealy next year and will connect our 3rd and 4th largest cities by motorway/dual carriageway standard road..

The M17 will not connect any cities it will connect Oranmore and Tuam. You will note I did not object to the M18 which does link Limerick/Cork with Galway.

tech2 wrote: »

On the M17 part well then you obviously havnt travelled on this route before. It is inept for a national primary road linking effectively the north and south of the country west corridor with a goat track. The new road will benefit people from Kerry, Cork, Limerick, Clare, Tipperary, Mayo, Galway, Roscommon, Sligo and Donegal to name just a few counties. .

How often do people from Kerry go to Donegal?

Can you even list the population of urban seetlements between Claregalway and Letterkenny; what are the existing daily traffic counts?

tech2 wrote: »

Now there is extra traffic involved. N5 traffic may instead go N17/M17/M6/M4 on the direction to dublin as the route would be much better from certain areas around the west of Ireland. The M17 will bring significant improvements to transport in Ireland whether you like it or not.

The M17 if it is not pulled by the IMF will be a bigger white elephant than the M3 and Limerick tunnel combined. I'd love to see the private sector response if they were offered the right to build and toll it; how many takers? Do we hear the phone ringing from Macquirie or Goldman or HSBC?

Amtmann

Here is the full text of the article:

THE NATIONAL Roads Authority (NRA) is continuing to buy up farmland for road schemes that no longer have Government approval due to cutbacks in the capital spending programme, an environmental group has claimed.

Plan Better, a coalition formed by An Taisce, Friends of the Earth, Feasta and Friends of the Irish Environment, said 22,000 acres of agricultural land could be purchased over the next four years for “ghost roads”.

A spokesman for the NRA said it had “no comment” to make on Plan Better’s claim.

According to the group, the Government agreed with the EU and International Monetary Fund that no major road scheme would start in 2012 or 2013. Yet €600 million had been allocated for new roads in 2012 and another €260 million the following year.

“With every kilometre of motorway removing 25 to 30 acres of land from agriculture, the road building authority gambles that a future government can be browbeaten into building around 800km of motorway after it has bought some 22,000 acres of land,” said Plan Better.

“The latest move in the NRA’s landgrab is evident in Wexford where steps to purchase land have just been taken in the case of the New Ross-Enniscorthy motorway/dual-carriageway project. More than half-a-dozen other schemes are also being moved towards land purchase.”

Plan Better said this was happening even though traffic levels on the road network had fallen by 7 per cent over the past two years and the NRA would have to pay €100 million to contractors for two toll roads – the M3 and Limerick tunnel – due to low traffic.

I for one am happy to hear that the NRA are buying land. After all, according to SpongeBob here, based on their allocation for 2011 and the costs of confirmed new builds, there's quite a surplus in the NRA's budget that should be spent on a certain number of CPOs in my view.

Interesting that the only land purchase mentioned in that article is for the M11/N25 Enniscorthy-New Ross Bypass PPP, which has tacit approval from the government for a possible start prior to 2015 anyway, as outlined in the Four-Year Plan. Now, I'd love for the land for the N22 North Ring Road, the N28 and the N24 Pallasgreen to Cahir scheme to be purchased now, at rock bottom prices. These roads will be built in due course, and they certainly won't be 'ghost roads', whatever that's supposed to mean.

Stark

Cress is just upset that he can no longer drive up and town the country forcing people to do 60km/hr. Maybe he can recruit his new tag team friend Tailors to drive two abreast with him on our new dual carriageways and then he'll be happy.

Chris_5339762

The M17 is the only part of the Galway - Letterkenny route that will be motorway. Having that section as motorway is probably a good idea, so long as the Claregalway relief road gets built. Anything north of that can be 2+2.

By the way, the N17 at Tuam (northern terminus) carried 23k AADT in August 2010. Lets compare that with 22k AADT on the Watergrasshill part of the M8. Wonder what kind of riots there would be if Watergrasshill didnt have its bypass?

Once the M17 section is built people will wonder how we ever did without it, just like every single other motorway in the country.

Tech3

Tailors Hall wrote: »

How often do people from Kerry go to Donegal?

People do travel from Kerry/Limerick to as far as Sligo/Donegal. It may be in low numbers but adds up to the total AADT which will run on the M17. The current N17 has an AADT of 23K at Claregalway with a goat track at the minute. Also you have to include traffic from the M6,N5 and even N52. Also traffic from Galway city to Tuam will use it.

Can you even list the population of urban seetlements between Claregalway and Letterkenny; what are the existing daily traffic counts?

The relevant AADT on a current goat track is 23K at Claregalway. It will be more when there is a motorway in place as there will be no holdups in commuter ridden N roads.

The M17 if it is not pulled by the IMF will be a bigger white elephant than the M3 and Limerick tunnel combined. I'd love to see the private sector response if they were offered the right to build and toll it; how many takers? Do we hear the phone ringing from Macquirie or Goldman or HSBC?

The road will be shadow tolled meaning the government repays the loan. The Limerick Tunnel and M3 is tolled on the mainline.

dubhthach

Tailors Hall wrote: »

Can you even list the population of urban seetlements between Claregalway and Letterkenny; what are the existing daily traffic counts?

I don't know why you are fixating on Claregalway perhaps because it's small. But Galway City boundary is within 7km's of it. Traffic from Galway <-> Sligo will use the new Motorway. As for list of populations here's a stab using Census 2006

Galway City & Environs: 72,729
Claregalway & Environs: 1,635
Oranmore: 3,513
Athenry: 3,205
Tuam & Environs: 6,885
Claremorris: 2,595
Knock: 745
Colloney: 892
Sligo & Environs: 19,402
Bundoran: 1,964
Ballyshannon: 2,686
Donegal Town: 2,339
Ballybofey-Stranorla 4,176
Letterkenny & Environs: 17,586

Total: 121,142

Of course you have to factor in the huge amount of one-off housing around the N17 corridor. This would easily increase the above figure by 50% if not more (depending on how wide you would want the corridor).

The AADT at Tuam is within bounds for what is proposed there especially when you factor in growth of use over the next 25years

Tailors Hall

Galway City & Environs: 72,729

A city which has 6 National primary routes and copious amounts of development land in the City's docklands; its own airport and a motorway and rail link to Dublin and in time Cork/Limerick; it doesn't need a motorway to a dormitory town with an urban population of 3,000

Claregalway & Environs: 1,635

Village

Oranmore: 3,513

Served by M6

Athenry: 3,205

Is actually served by The M6; you would be elongating your journey by a huge margin using N17

Tuam & Environs: 6,885

The census records a population of 3,000

Claremorris: 2,595

Small town

Knock: 745

Are we down to villages?

Colloney: 892

Another village; I'm amazed you left out the sprawling metropolisis of Charlestown and Tobbercurry

Sligo & Environs: 19,402

Listed in the census as 17,892; you have travelled a total of 139kms to hit another town in terms of scale.

Bundoran: 1,964
Ballyshannon: 2,686
Donegal Town: 2,339
Ballybofey-Stranorla 4,176

Very small settlements

Letterkenny & Environs: 17,586

The census lists 15062 and by the time you have reached this sattelite of Derry you have travelled over 250kms from Eyre Sq.

I note your complete absence of traffic counts.

The current N17 has an AADT of 23K at Claregalway with a goat track at the minute

Compare this to the M1 at Turnapin or the N7 at Naas; does it sound like less than 500 vehicle movements per hour in each direction requires a motorway?

I would ask again; if the private sector were given an open planning consent to design and build a motorway and toll it at whatever level they saw fit would they do so?

Interesting that the only land purchase mentioned in that article is for the M11/N25 Enniscorthy-New Ross Bypass PPP, which has tacit approval from the government for a possible start prior to 2015 anyway, as outlined in the Four-Year Plan.

So you are happy that the exchequer s borrowing money priced in the markets at 9% for land they won't need for over four years best case scenario while land prices continue to fall. A cost of over 140% for an asset
that is falling in value. I'm off back to review todays action in the markets where supply and demand find their own level unless the IMF intervene and delay the inevitable.

D'Peoples Voice

Furet wrote: »

THE NATIONAL Roads Authority (NRA) is continuing to buy up farmland for road schemes that no longer have Government approval due to cutbacks in the capital spending programme, an environmental group has claimed.

Plan Better, a coalition formed by An Taisce, Friends of the Earth, Feasta and Friends of the Irish Environment, said 22,000 acres of agricultural land could be purchased over the next four years for “ghost roads”.

the article:

I for one am happy to hear that the NRA are buying land. These roads will be built in due course, and they certainly won't be 'ghost roads', whatever that's supposed to mean.

hmm, Plan Better made no comments on NAMA's activities:(
buying houses/land off developers, houses that won't be used for years to come....

IngazZagni

Tailors Hall wrote: »

So you are happy that the exchequer s borrowing money priced in the markets at 9% for land they won't need for over four years best case scenario while land prices continue to fall. A cost of over 140% for an asset
that is falling in value. I'm off back to review todays action in the markets where supply and demand find their own level unless the IMF intervene and delay the inevitable.

However they are not borrowing at the market rates are they? No, they are at a much lower agreed rate with the EU/IMF.

Land prices are bottoming out or have bottomed out. There is no better time to buy land for development than now. A big reason to buy land now a few years in advance of actual construction is to prevent current landowners from obtaining planning permission for construction which will inflate the price for the land. You could also have a situation where they end up building on this land and forcing a complete change in the route of the road or something as simple as the owner not wishing to sell. It is only when this is done can the main sections of planning commence. It would be stupid to spend lots of money on something that may not happen but with the NRA owning the land this is guaranteed.

runway16

Tailors Hall,

"Galway doesnt need a motorway to a town of 3000".

What a ridiculous statement! It isnt just to serve Tuam. It is part of a national primary route that serves traffic from the length of the west coast. It isnt just about ONE town along its route. It will not be trafficked just be vehicles going from Galway to Tuam.

Seriously, I have never read such a stupid statement in all my life.

It further convinces me that this is merely trollism at its finest.

dubhthach

Tailors Hall wrote: »

Another village; I'm amazed you left out the sprawling metropolisis of Charlestown and Tobbercurry

Tubbercurry: 1,421
Charlestown-Bellahy: 859

You are the one who ask for a list of villages/town populations along the N17. All of this data is from the CSO and can be found here: http://www.cso.ie/census/documents/census2006_Table_7_and_12.pdf

As I clearly stated in my previous post "Tuam and Environs" has a population of 6,885. Regarding Oranmore/Athenry my point is these towns are basically on the route of "Galway <-> Letterkenny" if the proposed M17 is in place. I don't see why you mention development land in Galway Docklands as this has nothing to do with providing national routes for the purpose of long-distance travel/freight.

You seem to be fixated with idea that the road terminates at Tuam and will only be used for commuter traffic. Whereas in reality the route is one of main spines for all road traffic in the west of Ireland. One of major industries in the West these days are Medical devices. Alot of which are transported via Air freight through Shannon. Having Motorway as far as Tuam guarantees a quicker time for delivery/freight. This benefits the whole of the western economy.

Sponge Bob

The N17/N18 scheme is the centre of a corridor that is 'intended' to run from the 3rd to the 4th largest towns in Ireland and taking in the fifth and sixth, that would be Derry - Cork via Limerick and Galway.

Only a mung bean infested loony like our old mate Isaac could be bothered objecting to that ( in principle)

w2_3vc

dubhthach wrote: »

Tubbercurry: 1,421
Charlestown-Bellahy: 859

You are the one who ask for a list of villages/town populations along the N17. All of this data is from the CSO and can be found here: http://www.cso.ie/census/documents/census2006_Table_7_and_12.pdf

As I clearly stated in my previous post "Tuam and Environs" has a population of 6,885. .

As you probably know the census works on the parish system; if you include 10 miles in each direction from Tuam you might get to the number you are talking about; hoiwever most of this additional population will be farmers who don't commute each day to Central Galway. The population is as per the census 3,000 urban.

dubhthach wrote: »

Regarding Oranmore/Athenry my point is these towns are basically on the route of "Galway <-> Letterkenny" if the proposed M17 is in place. I don't see why you mention development land in Galway Docklands as this has nothing to do with providing national routes for the purpose of long-distance travel/freight..

Your point was that Athenry was served by the N17; it is a couple of hunderd meters from the M6. Make no mistake the M17 is purely to facilitate more one off housing along its route it has an extremely limited national function; I would ask to see the hourly breakdown of this route with less than a 500 per hour average traffic load in each direction.

dubhthach wrote: »

You seem to be fixated with idea that the road terminates at Tuam and will only be used for commuter traffic. Whereas in reality the route is one of main spines for all road traffic in the west of Ireland. .

I would ask to see the traffic counts for the Galway/Mayo border; I would suspect an average of c250 per hour in each direction looks more likely.

dubhthach wrote: »

One of major industries in the West these days are Medical devices. Alot of which are transported via Air freight through Shannon. Having Motorway as far as Tuam guarantees a quicker time for delivery/freight. This benefits the whole of the western economy.

We all salute the global exemplar of excellence that the Galway Cardio Cluster has become; however given that most of the players are global chances are they would be multi site producers; Asia would be done in Taipei or Singapore, the Americas in the US with the Galway production being trucked to Heathrow or CDG for onward distribution. In any event Shannon is on the N18 and Dublin served by the M6.

I ask the question if the private sector were given the opportunity to build this road and charge whatever they liked in tolls for an extended term of 100 years would they do so?

I also see reference to the IMF fund rate. which is not fixed but tied to a basket of inmterest rates, US treasuries have moved 90bps in the last 6 weeks, German bund about 80bps; funding costs are probably rising slightly more slowly than land values are falling; there is no justification to build roads the private sector wouldn't touch or worse buying land for road schemes that will not happen for many years to come with expensive money when land values are falling.

Sponge Bob

w2_3vc wrote: »

As you probably know the census works on the parish system;

I know it works on the electoral district system not the parish system.

Most of the population of Tuam is in the ( not very large) Rural district not the Urban district. The best part of 10,000 people live within 5km of the square in Tuam.

there is no justification to build roads the private sector wouldn't touch or worse buying land for road schemes that will not happen for many years to come with expensive money when land values are falling.

All rather vague and of dubious relevance. No NATIONAL road network has been provided ANYWHERE in the whole WORLD by the private sector ALONE, one is comparing apples and handgrenades there ....or maybe just doing a Sweetman

A national road network connects points of NATIONAL importance, among them at least 3 plants in the west that EACH export the guts of €1bn worth of goods each year.

In general you will not see this forum advocating the development of the N59 to Type 2 west of Crossmolina, there is a lot more balance and pragmatism hereabouts than you seem to appreciate....your being new to boards this is forgiveable of course.

However on a NATIONAL scale we would generally feel that a proper Type 1 grade road is required from Cork to Galway and that this road is the greatest NATIONAL priority at this time. The Athenry Tuam stretch was coupled to the most northerly portion of this road at tender.

You will be absolutely delighted to hear, no doubt, that an entirely separate Claregalway Bypass is also being planned. :cool:

w2_3vc

The census lists a population of 3,000 people which is an indisputable fact; I am happy to examine the further population on the basis of number of persons to number of square kilometers; however there is no basis to your finger in the air prediction unless you supply facts to support it.

NATIONAL importance

So a road with traffic counts of less than 500 average movements per hour in each direction is nationally important. You can never justify construction of a motorway with such pityful traffic loadings; this is not North Korea.

your being new to boards this is forgiveable of course.

It is like visiting a timewarp; the boom just got boomier eh?

Amtmann

w2_3vc and Tailors Hall (and everyone else): if you're going to have a debate on thread, it would be best to stick to the one username.

roosterman71

w2_3vc wrote: »

Make no mistake the M17 is purely to facilitate more one off housing along its route

You obviously have no idea about motorways. Motorways aren't built to accomodate one off housing. What good is a motorway to "one-off houses" when ya may need to drive 10/20 miles to an interchange to get on? Motorways were built for various reasons - ease of movement, improved jourey times, safety, etc. If the M17 takes traffic off the N17 which is a shocking national route, that can only be a good thing. Motorways are proven to be safer which seems to be ignored in this thread so far. It has nothing to do with Tuam or its bloody population. The road may serve Tuam, but the real impact to the town will be the improved way of life for the towns inhabitants.

Amtmann

It's worth pointing out that motorways in Ireland aren't built solely on the back of AADT.

These are also factors:

• Town bypass provision
• Improved road geometries
• Faster journey times
• More reliable journey times
• Increased safety by a factor of 10
• Removal of private accesses along national routes
• Economic stimulus

Also, it's worth pointing out that electric cars in the future will require long straight sections of road to function efficiently rather than the current 19th-century roads with their twists, turns, tractors and traffic jams.

I agree with SpongeBob that it is a national priority to link Cork with Galway and Derry by dual carriageway - the increased mobility that such a route would bring would stimulate greater internal trade and tourism for starters.

Cress

Ren2k7 wrote: »

The OP should also remember that over the next 10-20 years enormous steps will be taken to get cars to run exclusively on plug in electric power rendering discussion on the environmental impact of cars moot.

It's not true that electric vehicles will cut the carbon footprint / environmental impact of cars. Claimed reductions in emissions sound impressive until you factor in the carbon emissions from the manufacture of the car itself - something in the region of 40 tonnes. No matter how long you drive an electric car, it will never overcome the massive carbon footprint of manufacture. Thus, you should always drive an old car as long as possible.

That's not to say that new cars shouldn't be made to meet higher standards, but the problem is the car itself. It has a limited future. The days of private motoring are numbered.

dubhthach wrote: »

As far as I know Seán O'Neill's parents are from Connemara.

Does that make him Irish? Sounds perfectly American to me.

What about this 1960s fossil, speaking at 12:30 here?: http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/0726/nationwide_av.html Where did they get him from? Not Holland anyway. As an Irish person, I feel it's scandalous that individuals are being dragged over here from the World Capital of Unsustainable Transport (USA) to lend us their "expertise" so as we can develop our own 'Interstate highway slum' and the appalling environment it brings. We should be engaging the most up-to-date, 21st century sustainable-transport advice, not recyling relics from the failed North-American, post-war motorised suburban experiment. It's an outrage.

What's with you regulars on this forum? Do you just reject all criticism of roads or the car society? It's common knowledge that Ireland built too many roads in the boom, soon to be 'ghost roads'. Meath alone has four motorways going through it.

I put the inititial post in here on the assumption that this forum of Boards was an arena for diverse views / discussion, but it's more like having intruded on a committee meeting of Simi or the AA. The impression is of a smugfest of regulars 'thanking' each other for the pro-roads consensus.

Ireland became utterly sick with motor car use during the boom. We stopped walking altogther and started taking the car for journeys 2 minutes down the road (bad planning aside). We became that coast-to-coast 'automobile slum'. We laughed at it - 'Ha, ha, isn't this mad? ... traffic everywhere is mental'. But it cannot be continued. It has no future. It's a farcical existence. And many Irish people know this. Levels have fallen off now because of the recession and there's no going back. And the first thing needed is a moratorium on road construction and the winding up of that technically redundant quango, the NRA, which apart from anything else we can't afford anymore.


*Need it be said that that July '10 RTE Nationwide in the link was a disgraceful piece of television, shamelessly and uncritically lauding unsustainable, futureless road construction up and down the country, and a follow-up letter of complaint about it was rightly published in the Irish Independent.

---

Edit - The Foreword from the book 'Car Free Cities' by J.H. Crawford. Although it is about the U.S., the same complete remodelling of society around the car took place and scandalously continues to take place in Ireland:



Rest of it available here: http://books.google.ie/books?id=MOT_2X1380IC&printsec=frontcover&dq=car+free+cities+jh+crawford&hl=en&ei=YzgaTeaJFobNhAfy86G3Dg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCoQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=car%20free%20cities%20jh%20crawford&f=true

w2_3vc

Furet wrote: »

It's worth pointing out that motorways in Ireland aren't built solely on the back of AADT.

These are also factors:

• Town bypass provision
• Improved road geometries
• Faster journey times
• More reliable journey times
• Increased safety by a factor of 10
• Removal of private accesses along national routes
• Economic stimulus.

But to decide where a road should be built AADT is about the only criteria to assess need. Internationally it generally accepted that a minimum of 50,000 aadt is a base figure for motorways; this route would not acheive even half that figure.

I can't disagree that stimulus is used as a great excuse for most white elephants but Ireland after three years of stimulus is now going down the route of austerity.

I also agree that private access on National Primary Routes is a complete disaster; I can't remember the exact number of one off houses granted between 1995 and 2005 on the N22 but it was so significant that a relief road needed to built to correct this; where were the NRA given that they are a prescribed body under the NRA act.

Furet wrote: »

A agree with SpongeBob that it is a national priority to link Cork with Galway and Derry by motorway - the increased mobility that such a route would bring would stimulate greater internal trade and tourism for starters.

I'm not convinced; take both the AADT at say Ballindyne and eliminate commuter travel between Tuam and Claregalway and the flimsy reality of just how local this route is in terms of scale becomes very apparent. No doubt logistics route planners ensure that the M50 is avoided at peak hours on distribution runs; ditto N17.

The purchase of land with expensive money to buy an asset class that is falling for value for multi-year hold is simply unforgivable; there is clear evidence the yield curve is moving higher and no evidence that land markets are stabilising; land prices will continue to fall as long as demand stays on floor; when Doha completes that will depress agricultural values still further.

Amtmann

What is your viable alternative to road transport in Ireland cress? (Please don't say rail.)

You must understand that our problem as a nation is that a great many of the most important routes in Ireland are still 19th century. The N28, the N20, the N24, the N17, the N22, the A5, the N25. These are not fit for purpose. Once these routes and a limited number of others are upgraded, the clamour here for road building will cease. It is easy to look to Germany and Holland and hanker after the transport systems they have; but their population density is far greater than ours (so they can sustain viable rail networks, whereas we can't). In addition, these countries all invested very heavily in their road networks and are now substantially finished with these investments; they have reached the 'reaping the rewards' stage. We in Ireland have a bit to do before we can finish road-building.

I certainly do not want to cover the country in motorways; but I do want the most important, strategic routes to be readied for the remainder of the twenty-first century. People will always be mobile; they will always have to get around. Cars have a future for this reason, how ever they will be fuelled.

Amtmann

w2_3vc wrote: »

[/LIST]But to decide where a road should be built AADT is about the only criteria to assess need. Internationally it generally accepted that a minimum of 50,000 aadt is a base figure for motorways; this route would not acheive even half that figure.

A two-lane motorway with AADT of 50,000 is very full - I think its capacity is 53,000 AADT. We don't want any of our new two-lane motorways to ever be at 50,000 AADT because they will then require widening, which is an undesirable option.

The next alternative would be a type 2 dual carriageway, like this. However, type 2 dc reaches capacity at 20,000 AADT and needs to be widened thereafter. So based on current figures a type 2 DC could well suffice for the N17 (and indeed, the Tuam bypass and every improvement to the N17 north of Tuam will be type 2 dc rather than motorway), but south of Tuam, in the long run, a motorway standard road is the best bet. If built, it will never have to be widened again.

w2_3vc

It is currently a two lane road which has no congestion issues outside commuting hours; national traffic fell by 7% last year and you are advocating building a road with over 100% over capacity when the IMF is signing the cheques.....

A large white elephant that will make the M3 look like a success. Concentrate resources where they are needed, Dublin Underground, FDI grants and route subsidies for more air routes out of Shannon. I know there is an election next year and all parties are setting out their stalls but this project is sheer lunacy.

Tech3

Cress wrote: »

What's with you regulars on this forum? Do you just reject all criticism of roads or the car society? It's common knowledge that Ireland built too many roads in the boom - Meath alone has four motorways going through it.

If you look through some threads you will see that many of us reject to quite a number of road schemes and the priority of them. I was even against one of those motorways in county Meath. But do you expect us to live in 18th century alignments for the next 20 years. Do you ever think about how many lives these new motorways will save. The main reason road deaths have dramatically dropped in the last few years is due to road improvements driven by the major inter urban motorway network. Also it doesnt take half a day to drive from one of the regional cities to Dublin anymore.

I put the inititial post in here on the assumption that this forum of Boards was an arena for diverse views / discussion, but it's more like having intruded on a committee meeting of Simi or the AA. The impression is of a smugfest of regulars 'thanking' each other for the pro-roads consensus.

The main reason we thanked the posts is because it makes common sense that a road scheme of this significance should be and will be built.

Ireland became utterly sick with motor car use during the boom. We stopped walking altogether and started taking the car for journeys 2 minutes down the road (bad planning aside). We became that coast-to-coast 'automobile slum'. We laughed at it - 'Ha, ha, isn't this mad? ... traffic everywhere is mental' But it cannot be continued. It has no future. It's a farcical existence. And many Irish people know this. Levels have fallen off now because of the recession and there's no going back. And the first thing needed is a moratorium on road construction and the winding up of that technically redundant quango, the NRA.

I would love to see a statistic to back up your claim that traffic has decreased. Ireland is a car dependent country and always will be. Electric vehicles will be the future of transport in Ireland outside of Dublin and we need a good road network in order for these to work. Public transport should be prioritized in Dublin over the next few years with the Dart Underground and Metro North.

w2_3vc

I would love to see a statistic to back up your claim that traffic has decreased.

About 2005 when the M3 traffic loads were being taken apart on message boards; all AADT data disapeared from the NRA website having been up for years. It is hard to believe that traffic has not decreased given the net emmigration, fall in employment, fall in construction, drop in retail sales etc.

dubhthach

It's a pity that the level of "sock-puppetry" on this thread hasn't dropped as well!

w2_3vc

tech2 wrote: »

Public transport should be prioritized in Dublin over the next few years with the Dart Underground and Metro North.

You cannot lump these two projects together; Metro North is an equally sized white elephant to this; it could easily be served by a Luas line but the RPA and government decided they would over-specify the project for reasons unknown. Metro North will not get IMF approval nor should M17 which has less than half its design capacity at a time when money is non-existant and traffic levels falling.

Amtmann

w2_3vc wrote: »

It is currently a two lane road which has no congestion issues outside commuting hours; national traffic fell by 7% last year and you are advocating building a road with over 100% over capacity when the IMF is signing the cheques.....

But again, you see you are fixated on AADT and AADT only. Granted, the road is not congested, as in it is not generally bumper to bumper. But the road's geometry greatly restricts overtaking opportunities and greatly increases journey times making them unpredictable, or predictably arduous if you like. It also makes the road a very dangerous prospect from a safety point of view. A new build removes those problems, provides town bypasses, and allows more traffic to use the new road, because people are no longer turned off the route by its general crappiness. AADT will rise gradually if the new build goes ahead, and it will rise because mobility (and therefore trade) will be made easier, and because the new N17 will 'suck' cars from other alternative routes towards it because it will be the easiest, fastest, and safest route to take. You have to think long term. Spending a billion on a motorway is not like spending a billion on public sector wages or on a bank. The resultant infrastructure will have multi-generational utility.

Tech3

w2_3vc wrote: »

About 2005 when the M3 traffic loads were being taken apart on message boards; all AADT data disapeared from the NRA website having been up for years. It is hard to believe that traffic has not decreased given the net emmigration, fall in employment, fall in construction, drop in retail sales etc.

The M3 is not reaching it's predicted AADT which was estimated levels. A main reason that the levels are not reaching the required AADT is down to toll dodging and using the old N3 road.

The Limerick Tunnel is also being avoided due to the toll and in droves. The dock rd(main route outside tunnel) is backed up most mornings and evenings at peak time. The AADT would easily be over the required figure if those who toll dodged actually decide to use it.

This cannot be compared to the proposed new stretch of the M17/M18 which will not be tolled to the users of the road. Instead the government will repay the PPP consortium. This is called shadow tolling.

Anyway getting back my original statement I was referring to a national route that has traffic on it over the last few years to compare traffic levels. If you check for example the N17 levels are not dropping due to the recession.

w2_3vc

Do you want to know why I insist on objective criteria?

Double hit for taxpayers as NRA needs €100m bailout on toll roads
By james– October 8, 2010
Posted in: News, Transport

NRA get toll figures wrong by 20 to 30% – but it’s taxpayers that will pay

- On the M3 traffic is 22% below the penalty payments level

- Traffic is 26% below the penalty payments level on the Limerick Tunnel

- Taxpayers face a €100m bill over the life of PPP contracts based on a scenario favourable to the NRA (i.e. traffic growth assumed from 2011)

- Arrogance and naivety of the NRA shown in toll road contracts

- NRA continues to use discredited projections in attempting to justify further motorway

The NRA’s expectation that traffic would grow rapidly has proved hopelessly inaccurate. Figures obtained by PlanBetter, a joint initiative of four environmental organisations – An Taisce, Friends of the Earth, Friends of the Irish Environment and Feasta, show that traffic levels on the newly opened M3 and Limerick Tunnel are 20 – 30 per cent below the level at which the NRA must pay penalties to the private companies operating these roads.

Actual traffic on the M3 is 22 per cent – almost 5,000 vehicles a day – below the level at which penalty payments must be made. Traffic would have to reach 26,250 vehicles a day to avoid penalty payments; the current daily traffic is in or around 21,500.

Traffic using the Limerick tunnel is 26 per cent (3,500 vehicles) below the penalty fee level. To avoid penalty payments 17,000 need to pass through the tunnel a day; the actual traffic level is around 13,500 vehicles a day.

According to the environmental organisations, the bill to taxpayers will be at least €100m over the lifetime of the contracts but will be far higher in the event traffic levels remain static or continue to fall in coming years.

While taxpayers will have to bail out the NRA for its use of widely over-optimistic traffic growth projections, the NRA continues to use these same projections in attempting to justify motorway between Oilgate and Rosslare (N11/N25),* for example. Other sections of motorway/dual carriageway the NRA is attempting to justify based on inaccurate data include: Blarney to Patrickswell (N20), Clontribret to Moybridge (N2), the Ballyvourney motorway (N22), Abbeyfeale to Clonshire (N21), Kilmeaden to Midleton (N25), Ashbourne to Ardee (N2), and Tuam to Letterkenny (N17).

The NRA’s reputation has been holed below the waterline with these revelations. There has been a 7 per cent fall in traffic over the last two years that the NRA continues to try and ignore. Instead it uses an August 2003 growth multiplier that assumes traffic grows by more than 2 per cent every year. In failing to come clean on traffic levels, the NRA is causing itself further damage. To continue to use such forecasts, which are known to be wrong, could constitute professional misconduct. Contrast the NRA’s projections of never-ending growth with the UK, where transport planners allow for traffic decline in conducting sensitivity analyses.

Arrogance and naivety led to dreadful contracts

The NRA’s contracts display an arrogance mixed with naivety. The contracts are naive in that there is no amendment or reset clause. Because the assumed levels have been missed in the opening year, taxpayers are almost certain to be caught for penalty payments in every year. With no way to redress breaches in the year of opening, it doesn’t matter even if traffic growth resumes at the assumed level because the leap required to close the initial gap is just too large.

Failure of Government to regulate

The PPP (public private partnership) contracts highlight another failure by Government to regulate. This time a public organisation got wrapped up in the myth of high, endless levels of growth, with the same result as the banks: the public will pay.

The M3 and Limerick Tunnel contracts are proof, if proof was needed, that penalty clauses based on never-ending growth hang taxpayers out to dry. The public organisations that sign such badly-configured clauses never seem to incur any penalty; all the pain is shouldered by those already hard-pressed.

It has become increasingly clear that further large-scale road-building at a time of falling traffic is foolhardy. As oil prices rise government needs to prioritise bus investment and help people to make the transition to public transport. A sustainable vision is set out further in the policy note below.

Policy note: Prioritising cost-effective public transport

In short, our economic growth and greater use of resources steals from tomorrow in an attempt to preserve yesterday’s way of life. This is particularly evident in attempts to build more and more motorway.

Government needs to produce revised proposals for cost-effective public transport without delay. The focus must be on Advanced Bus Corridors, enhancing bus routes in Irish cities to the standard enjoyed in France, where Nantes and Rouen have shown the service improvements that can be delivered with thrifty investment.

Billions can no longer be borrowed for mega-projects, the cost-benefit studies for which were completed based on borrowing at 3 to 4 per cent whereas Ireland now faces interest rates in or around 7 per cent. Moreover, rail tunnelling projects create far fewer jobs compared to bus investment because money is sent abroad to buy tunnel-building equipment and expertise instead of being circulated and re-circulated in local economies.

The recent move to merge the RPA and NRA is welcome. It must be made explicit that Advanced Bus Corridors are within the remit of the new authority, and that the new entity will proritise their delivery across our cities. In Dublin, as a matter of urgency, a bus corridor needs to be constructed along the north wall to the mouth of the Dublin Port Tunnel in the docklands, with a corresponding corridor at from the northern side of the tunnel to Dublin Airport.

I am not anti-road, I am not anti-car, I am just sick to death of unviable projects getting built. The IMF is running the country and taking on further debt to construct a motorway that fails objective criteria is part of the problem and far from the solution.

corktina

oh dear...when do the Troll-mines re-open after the Holiday?

How bizarre that some people would expect to have a sympathetic hearing with claptrap on a Forum such as this, dedicated to road fans

Tech3

Well a report on this cannot be taken seriously when most of it is inaccurate. Also it is known these groups are ultra anti-roads and will make anything up to stop road construction.

Here is an extract from that article:

While taxpayers will have to bail out the NRA for its use of widely over-optimistic traffic growth projections, the NRA continues to use these same projections in attempting to justify motorway between Oilgate and Rosslare (N11/N25),* for example. Other sections of motorway/dual carriageway the NRA is attempting to justify based on inaccurate data include: Blarney to Patrickswell (N20), Clontribret to Moybridge (N2), the Ballyvourney motorway (N22), Abbeyfeale to Clonshire (N21), Kilmeaden to Midleton (N25), Ashbourne to Ardee (N2), and Tuam to Letterkenny (N17).

Lol check the real facts before printing such an article. The motorway/dual carriageway stroke is genius. The fact is type 2 dual carriageway is much cheaper than a type 1 dual carriageway/motorway. A type 2 dual carriageway is close to the cost of a new offline wide single carriageway road.

So the following would be type 2 dual carriageway(merely like WS2 roads):

• N2 - Clontribret to Moybridge
• N22 - Ballyvourney motorway lol
• N21 - Abbeyfeale to Clonshire
• N17 - Tuam to Letterkenny
• N2 - Ashbourne to Ardee

in attempting to justify motorway[/B] between Oilgate and Rosslare

Wow ultra fail here.

w2_3vc

corktina wrote: »

oh dear...when do the Troll-mines re-open after the Holiday?

How bizarre that some people would expect to have a sympathetic hearing with claptrap on a Forum such as this, dedicated to road fans

So which part do you dispute?

1. That it is unacceptable to build a road 100% over-specified when traffic levels are falling?

2. That it is is unacceptable to waste expensive money buying land for roads there is no money to build when land values are falling?

3. That the country is broke and can't afford white elephants?

4. That the N17 is basically a commuter route with limited national route usage?

I'd guess you are based in Cork from your name, nice town, what percentage of your national route journeys in 2010 were on the N17?

w2_3vc

tech2 wrote: »

So the following would be type 2 dual carriageway(merely like WS2 roads):

• N2 - Clontribret to Moybridge
• N2 - Ashbourne to Ardee

The M1 and M3 are no further than 15 miles from the N2 for the vast bulk of the route of the proposed route.

The fastest way to Derry in recent years has been M1 to Newry, Armagh and then A5 if national routes are the consideration; policy one of Transport 21 was to get more out of existing infrastructure; the bust has made that policy even more sensible.

Tech3

w2_3vc wrote: »

The M1 and M3 are no further than 15 miles from the N2 for the vast bulk of the route of the proposed route.

The fastest way to Derry in recent years has been M1 to Newry, Armagh and then A5 if national routes are cosidered.

Thats fine but will you admit the article is clearly wrong in that it mentions motorway required levels when in fact it's not. It is type 2 dual carriageway levels which is 20,000 at max capacity. Required levels for this would be much lower.

w2_3vc

You are probably correct that type 2 DC has a maximum optimimum capacity of 20,000, however many routes operate at levels above optimum and their main point was that unrealistic estimates on two road schemes cost the taxpayer another €100m last year. In fairness to the authors they did flag up that M3 would be a disaster but were told AADT was not the only criteria; well €100m to my mind says it is.

The beleagured taxpayer needs better analysis and no more white elephants such as M17 or Metro North for that matter.

Transport 21 reminds me of the 1969 change from T routes to N routes except instead of numbers it was decided that we would have dual carriageways and motorways whether needed or not.

All land purchases for schemes not through An Bord Pleannala need to be axed immediately and the NRA need to start publishing traffic data again.

Tech3

w2_3vc wrote: »

the NRA need to start publishing traffic data again.

See this link: here

Updated to August and shows the N17 has in fact more traffic on it than the counter in 2006.

oharach

Furet wrote: »

A two-lane motorway with AADT of 50,000 is very full - I think its capacity is 53,000 AADT.

The next alternative would be a type 2 dual carriageway, like this. However, type 2 dc reaches capacity at 20,000 AADT and needs to be widened thereafter.

That isn't quite comparing like for like. According to this NRA presentation the capacity for service level D is 20,000 AADT, and the corresponding figure for motorway is 38,100 AADT.

Presuming the ultimate capacity of a motorway is 50,000, the corresponding ultimate capacity of a type 2 would be something like 26,200, working purely with percentages.

If, as some posters seem to state, the traffic is primarily national and not commuter, the traffic is generally spread more evenly throughout the day, and a type 2 could still be appropriate at a higher AADT than on a heavy commuter route, where capacity could be exceeded at peak times.

I don't think anyone resents the cattle track that is is the N17 being replaced with a safe, decent road. However, it shouldn't be exempt from scrutiny given the scale of the project. I think all posters can understand how someone would be suspicious of the need for a motorway to replace a cattle track.

Personally, I don't know enough about the growth potential of this route to decide either way, so I'm happy to sit on the fence.