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Is Micheal Martin same recipe different chef?

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  • #32
    The Raven.
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,008 ✭✭✭The Raven.


    sparkling sea wrote: »
    To me Micheal Martin has tonight confirmed that the sneakness and the ability to cover up blatant untruths which seems intrinisic in past Fianna Fail leaders, is still alive and well.

    Are we as a nation likely to be taken in and develop a liking for old wine in a fancy new bottle or will we see through the facade and realise that politics is about problem solving and proactive effective action not acting skills

    +1

    He is not even a good actor but, in the village of the blind, the one-eyed man is king. There will always be those who are willing to be conned by the slippery Fianna Fail duplicity. It reminds me of The Spider and the Fly.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=37uYq10YpKY


  • #33
    nesf
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,644 ✭✭✭✭nesf


    mewso wrote: »
    I think you'll find no greater supporter than FF based on actual evidence.

    FF didn't support the unions per se but an ideological position on social partnership. The two aren't really the same and are motivated by different things but end up with similar results. FF's (and particularly Bertie's) obsession with social partnership is what we can thank for Benchmarking and the likes of the HSE but it doesn't necessarily mean that they supported the unions merely that they prided peaceful industrial relations far more than they should have.


  • #34
    pragmatic1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,573 ✭✭✭pragmatic1


    Noreen1 wrote: »
    Yes, same recipe, different chef.

    The problem is, I'm having trouble finding a chef among any of the parties whose recipe sounds even remotely plausible.....
    Its not even a different chef. Hes been in power throughout all the mistakes that were made and made a number of serious blunders himself. I love this country but sometimes it saddens and frustrates me at the same time.


  • #35
    mewso
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 9,113 Mod ✭✭✭✭mewso


    nesf wrote: »
    FF didn't support the unions per se but an ideological position on social partnership. The two aren't really the same and are motivated by different things but end up with similar results. FF's (and particularly Bertie's) obsession with social partnership is what we can thank for Benchmarking and the likes of the HSE but it doesn't necessarily mean that they supported the unions merely that they prided peaceful industrial relations far more than they should have.

    My point is it's the only recent example we have of a government and it's dealings with the Unions. I get a bit tired of the scaremongering of The Labour Party while welcoming the great white elephant that is FG.


  • #36
    nesf
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,644 ✭✭✭✭nesf


    mewso wrote: »
    My point is it's the only recent example we have of a government and it's dealings with the Unions. I get a bit tired of the scaremongering of The Labour Party while welcoming the great white elephant that is FG.

    I accept that, my point is that FF's support was for Social Partnership not the unions while Labour have ideological and political ties to the unions directly which is quite different. The former disintegrates during a downturn over time, the latter doesn't.


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  • #37
    Noreen1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,654 ✭✭✭Noreen1


    nesf wrote: »
    I accept that, my point is that FF's support was for Social Partnership not the unions while Labour have ideological and political ties to the unions directly which is quite different. The former disintegrates during a downturn over time, the latter doesn't.

    With the IMF in town, I wouldn't be too sure of that, somehow!


  • #38
    Tragedy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,056 ✭✭✭Tragedy


    Killer Pigeon wrote: »
    OMG

    The Unions, the Unions, the Unions, the Unions, the Unions, the Unions.

    Just a pile of bitter people who somehow view Labour's historical attachment to the Unions as being detrimental.

    I'm a bitter young person who worked in a heavily unionised work place and has first hand experience of what the major unions in Ireland are like.

    Do you?


  • #39
    pavcro10
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 219 ✭✭pavcro10


    Of course he is! FF arent a political party, they are a old boys club. Corrupt to the core. Couldnt believe it watching the news last night that people were asking him for pics, happy to see him etc while he was canvassing. people here are sheep and have short memories


  • #40
    nesf
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,644 ✭✭✭✭nesf


    Noreen1 wrote: »
    With the IMF in town, I wouldn't be too sure of that, somehow!

    One dearly hopes so.


  • #41
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Tragedy wrote: »
    I'm a bitter young person who worked in a heavily unionised work place and has first hand experience of what the major unions in Ireland are like.

    Do you?

    Its anecdote time, is it?

    I worked in a non-union enviroment for 20 years and have had first hand experience of what unchecked management can do.


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  • #42
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    sparkling sea wrote: »
    To me Micheal Martin has tonight confirmed that the sneakness and the ability to cover up blatant untruths which seems intrinisic in past Fianna Fail leaders, is still alive and well.

    Are we as a nation likely to be taken in and develop a liking for old wine in a fancy new bottle or will we see through the facade and realise that politics is about problem solving and proactive effective action not acting skills

    Same recipe, new 'TV' chef.


  • #43
    Tragedy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,056 ✭✭✭Tragedy


    Nodin wrote: »
    Its anecdote time, is it?

    I worked in a non-union enviroment for 20 years and have had first hand experience of what unchecked management can do.

    Obviously not recently as employment law has been heavily stacked in employees favour over the last 10 years.


  • #44
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Tragedy wrote: »
    Obviously not recently as employment law has been heavily stacked in employees favour over the last 10 years.

    Yes, "employment law" put an end to nepotism, cronyism, unfairness and inequality in the work place.

    Just as a matter of interest, what section of "employment law" deals with nepotism?


  • #45
    sparkling sea
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,410 ✭✭✭sparkling sea


    Tragedy wrote: »
    Obviously not recently as employment law has been heavily stacked in employees favour over the last 10 years.

    Employment law developments have come from Europe - the Irish parties ingored this area of law for may years.

    Unchecked management and unchecked unions are just self serving - not all management and not all unions but some. Lets not do tit for tat.

    I have a feeling of unease regarding Micheal Martin and the more I hear him speak, the more uneasy I feel.

    Although the advisors of Edna Kenny probably made the right call re the TV debate, I still feel disappointed with this decison.

    I also feel disappointed with Eamonn Gilmore's preformance.

    I am even annoyed with myself because I know that its substance that matters and not a leaders ability to preform on TV.

    The policy and how they can be implemented, given that however gets in will be in coalition.
    So why are people still saying how impressed they where with MM ?


  • #46
    Oasis_Dublin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,467 ✭✭✭Oasis_Dublin


    delta720 wrote: »
    What are you on about?? You make it sound like it's a party of evil men who purposely destroyed Ireland.

    While there is no doubt that they fell asleep at the wheel, to say they did it on purpose is crazy but predictable from a generalised boards post.

    At the end of the day from 2008 onwards FF did what they thought was best for the country, pre-2008 every party was the same, the opposition weren't jumping around saying the country was headed to ****, FG wanted to increase the national debt because they claimed FF were too conservative with public expenditure.

    FF are now a scape-goat for the failings of every one of our politicians, the opposition have let the country down as much as the government.

    I think the majority of posters on boards, who seem to think a change in government is going to have any meaningful effect on the day to day lives of Irelands citizens or on the rate at which the economy recovers, are childishly naive.

    In relation to tonights debate, Eamon Gilmore refused to answer specific questions about what Labour will do in government and simply tried to play to the audience by repeatedly highlighting FF's faults in the last government. Labour will probably still get my vote but I feel they wasted a massive opportunity to show the party's merits, instead of just saying ' look we're better than FF' which isn't exactly setting the bar high.

    Micheal Martin in fairness to him was excellent in what should have been a very difficult debate.

    Not evil but self serving. Blaming the opposition is not a reasonable complaint to make. There has to be accountability in the system. FF out.


  • #47
    shoegirl
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,067 ✭✭✭shoegirl


    IMHO Martin is much worse than Cowen as he's a much better liar.

    He also has a poor track record in execution of policy.

    I am not a labour supporter but I am beginning to realise why they don't commit to policies - Roisin Shorthall the other day suggested that the picture painted of the economy by FF is totally lacking in credibility and they don't really know what they will find - apparently Labour believe the situation is much worse than FF suggest. This appears to behind what otherwise looks like a ploy to evade blame for unpopular policies.


  • #48
    Tragedy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,056 ✭✭✭Tragedy


    Nodin wrote: »
    Yes, "employment law" put an end to nepotism, cronyism, unfairness and inequality in the work place.

    Just as a matter of interest, what section of "employment law" deals with nepotism?
    What aspect of nepotism?

    And yes, employment has put an end to nepotism, cronyism, unfairness and inequality in the work place when people are aware of their rights and exercise them.
    Most people are grossly ignorant of their rights.
    sparkling sea wrote: »
    Employment law developments have come from Europe - the Irish parties ingored this area of law for may years.

    Unchecked management and unchecked unions are just self serving - not all management and not all unions but some. Lets not do tit for tat.
    I didn't argue where employment law came from(I don't think anyone has?), but anyone arguing that Unions have been demonised and are necessary is living in a bizzare world completely unconnected to reality.
    I had to cover for nurses during the 2007 strike.
    Does anyone remember what they INO were striking for in Mid 2007? A cut of four hours in their 39-hour week and 10.6pc pay increase.

    Yes, Unions are fantastic, and it's not worrying at all that Labour has deep and lasting connections to them.


  • #49
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Tragedy wrote: »
    What aspect of nepotism?.


    Any. What section deals with it?


  • #50
    Tragedy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,056 ✭✭✭Tragedy


    Nodin wrote: »
    Any. What section deals with it?
    Any? That's akin to asking me what law deals with theft, but not telling me what kind of theft.


    If you want to find out some broad information, I suggest http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/employment/employment_rights_and_conditions/employment_rights_and_duties/employment_law_update.html as a starter. Bear in mind that Employment Law is now complex, large and important enough to be a role in and of itself in most HR departments now - but it should give you some base idea of how Ireland has changed recently.


  • #51
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Tragedy wrote: »
    Any? That's akin to asking me what law deals with theft, but not telling me what kind of theft.


    If you want to find out some broad information, I suggest http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/employment/employment_rights_and_conditions/employment_rights_and_duties/employment_law_update.html as a starter. Bear in mind that Employment Law is now complex, large and important enough to be a role in and of itself in most HR departments now - but it should give you some base idea of how Ireland has changed recently.

    Employment law covers a number of areas, primarily discrimination, statutory requirements re hours, wages, time off and redundancy. There's a raft of areas within a company that are entirely unregulated and - in the absence of an outside body - impossible to police by the workforce.

    And of course, theres the consequences of having the 'black mark' of a labour court case on ones CV when seeking a job where there has been a breach of legislation.


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  • #52
    Tragedy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,056 ✭✭✭Tragedy


    Nodin wrote: »
    Employment law covers a number of areas, primarily discrimination, statutory requirements re hours, wages, time off and redundancy. There's a raft of areas within a company that are entirely unregulated and - in the absence of an outside body - impossible to police by the workforce.
    Having a sister with a degree in Employment Law & Industrial Relations and 12 years of experience in two of the most challenging industries to practice it in, I'm going to have to disagree with you that there are a raft of areas within a company that are entirely unregulated and impossible to police.
    As said, the main issue is not knowing your rights and therefore not exercising them, it isn't not having rights.
    And of course, theres the consequences of having the 'black mark' of a labour court case on ones CV when seeking a job where there has been a breach of legislation.
    What makes you think a labour court case goes on ones CV?


  • #53
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Tragedy wrote: »
    Having a sister with a degree in Employment Law & Industrial Relations and 12 years of experience in two of the most challenging industries to practice it in, I'm going to have to disagree with you that there are a raft of areas within a company that are entirely unregulated and impossible to police.
    As said, the main issue is not knowing your rights and therefore not exercising them, it isn't not having rights.

    And, having witnessed countless incidents, including the sidelining of those who did raise certain issues, I'm going to have to disagree with you.
    Tragedy wrote: »

    What makes you think a labour court case goes on ones CV?

    ...in the sense that it can count against you when seeking new employment. And this was brought up when seeking legal advice.


  • #54
    Tragedy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,056 ✭✭✭Tragedy


    Nodin wrote: »
    And, having witnessed countless incidents, including the sidelining of those who did raise certain issues, I'm going to have to disagree with you.
    Which sounds like they didn't exercise their rights or else didn't know it.


    ...in the sense that it can count against you when seeking new employment. And this was brought up when seeking legal advice.
    Just asked, labour court has a list of judgements but is generally just surnames. Nothing identifiable like address or age(unless it's part of the case). Rights commissioner can be held behind closed doors.

    What makes you think it can be held against you? How will a future employer find out about it? How will they be able to use it against you even if they do somehow find out, when they're suggested to have a minimum of two people on the interview panel with a gender balance, taking notes of your interview and required to be able to explain why you didn't get the job?

    Regardless, this is going off topic and it's time to nip it in the bud.


  • #55
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Tragedy wrote: »
    Which sounds like they didn't exercise their rights or else didn't know it..

    Or perhaps situations arise that are more complicated than that.
    Tragedy wrote: »
    Just asked, labour court has a list of judgements but is generally just surnames. Nothing (..........)nip it in the bud.

    I didn't originally think it would. This was revealed while consulting legal advice. And during a second opinion. Neither were free.


  • #56
    Tragedy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,056 ✭✭✭Tragedy


    Nodin wrote: »
    Or perhaps situations arise that are more complicated than that.
    Employment law is employment law, complications are for the various bodies to rule upon.


    I didn't originally think it would. This was revealed while consulting legal advice. And during a second opinion. Neither were free.
    http://www.labourcourt.ie/labour/labour.nsf/LookupPageLink/Recommendations
    You're welcome to tell me how a prospective employer is going to find much of anything in there, presuming they look.
    The Employment Appeals Tribunal publishes determinations with the names of parties redacted.
    Hearings before an Equality Officer are confidential
    Proceedings before a Rights Commissioner are confidential and held in private.

    Ok, that's me finished for real this time :pac:


  • #57
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    As I said, thats advice that was given, in two paid consultations, which was not cheap. Ye can accept that, or not.


  • #58
    femur61
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,588 ✭✭✭femur61


    shoegirl wrote: »
    IMHO Martin is much worse than Cowen as he's a much better liar.

    He also has a poor track record in execution of policy.

    QUOTE]

    I totally agree with you, wonder does he regret now taking job, not such a coup after all. He has a terrible team the more I look at FG Enda for all his lack of charisma he has picked a good team.


  • #59
    sparkling sea
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,410 ✭✭✭sparkling sea


    Can we get off the labour law arguement - yes there are problems, if you take a case to the Labour Ct, even if you win it is possible you will be penalised in other ways.
    The same applies if you make an insurance claim against your employer and win - this can also cause you problems when looking for a job - thats life there are know perfect solutions when humans are involved, we always find loopholes.

    Back to MM - he has stated that he wont take the €90,000, he's a gasman


  • #60
    joseph brand
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,540 ✭✭✭joseph brand


    sparkling sea wrote: »
    Can we get off the labour law arguement - yes there are problems, if you take a case to the Labour Ct, even if you win it is possible you will be penalised in other ways.
    The same applies if you make an insurance claim against your employer and win - this can also cause you problems when looking for a job - thats life there are know perfect solutions when humans are involved, we always find loopholes.

    Back to MM - he has stated that he wont take the €90,000, he's a gasman

    Mary Hanafin will take the money, she's a good woman.

    GAAAWWWWDDD I can't stand that woman. Irritating b*tch would be an understatement. Her and her bloody double-speak.


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  • #61
    Oasis_Dublin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,467 ✭✭✭Oasis_Dublin


    joseph brand wrote: »
    Mary Hanafin will take the money, she's a good woman.

    GAAAWWWWDDD I can't stand that woman. Irritating b*tch would be an understatement. Her and her bloody double-speak.

    She's come out today and said she won't take it. That said, if neither get elected they will take the 90,000 pay-off.


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