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Court bans man with low IQ from having sex

  • 09-02-2011 01:22PM
    #1
    Administrators, Entertainment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 18,841 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭hullaballoo


    From the Telegraph:
    A man with a low IQ has been banned from having sex by a High Court judge who admitted the case raised questions about “civil liberties and personal autonomy”.

    The 41 year-old had been in a relationship with a man whom he lived with and told officials “it would make me feel happy” for it to continue.

    But his local council decided his “vigorous sex drive” was inappropriate and that with an IQ of 48 and a “moderate” learning disability, he did not understand what he was doing.

    A psychiatrist involved in the case even tried to prevent the man being given sex education, on the grounds that it would leave him “confused”.

    Mr Justice Mostyn said the case was “legally, intellectually and morally” complex as sex is “one of the most basic human functions” and the court must “tread especially carefully” when the state tries to curtail it.

    But he agreed that the man, known only as Alan, should not be allowed to have sex with anyone on the grounds that he did not have the mental capacity to understand the health risks associated with his actions.

    Under the judge’s order, the man is now subject to “close supervision” by the local authority that provides his accommodation, in order to ensure he does not break the highly unusual order.

    The judge concluded: “I therefore make a declaration that at the present time Alan does not have the capacity to consent to and engage in sexual relations.

    “In such circumstances it is agreed that the present régime for Alan's supervision and for the prevention of future sexual activity is in his best interests.”

    It is the latest controversial case to come before the Court of Protection, a little-known authority whose proceedings are held behind closed doors.

    Under the Mental Capacity Act 2005, its judges have the power to make life or death decisions for people deemed to lack the intelligence to make them for themselves – such as ordering that they undergo surgery, have forced abortions, have life-support switched off or be forced to use contraception.

    In the latest case, the man known as Alan was described as “sociable” and “presented as an able man” but who was “seriously challenged in all aspects of his mental functionality”.

    He lived in a home provided by the council, where he developed a sexual relationship with a man called Kieron by the court. Alan was also accused of making lewd gestures at children in a dentists’ surgery and on a bus, although no police action was taken.

    In June 2009 the town hall began court proceedings to restrict his contact with Kieron on the grounds that he lacked mental capacity, and an interim order was made to that effect.

    “Since then Alan has been subjected to close supervision to prevent any further sexual activity on his part,” except when he is alone in his bedroom.
    However he told representatives of the Official Solicitor, who acts in the Court of Protection, to tell the judge “I want to kiss them again”.

    Mr Justice Mostyn highlighted the fact that the court cannot prevent people from merely making “unwise” decisions, and that a simple test can be carried out to see if a person is capable of consenting to sex based on the act itself rather than the proposed partner.

    The judge said it requires an understanding and awareness of the “mechanics of the act”, “that there are health risks involved” and that sex between a man and a woman may lead to pregnancy.

    He said that the psychiatrist thought Alan “believed that babies were delivered by a stork or found under a bush”, and that “sex could give you spots or measles”.

    On that basis the judge ruled that Alan did not have the capacity to consent to sex, but also ordered that the council should provide him with sex education “in the hope that he thereby gains that capacity”.


    I'm unsure if this is to be enforced. The ruling would suggest that any of his future sexual partners could be guilty of rape, since he has been deemed not to have the capacity to consent.


«1345

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,775 ✭✭✭✭kfallon


    Would him striking a boner be a form of consent???


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 515 ✭✭✭martic


    Kevin Joyce???


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 14,670 ✭✭✭✭Wolfe Tone


    Since he cant consent any sex would be rape


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 27,252 ✭✭✭✭stovelid


    Wasn't a simlar ruling overturned before?

    Kerry Katona has kids doesn't she?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 28,404 ✭✭✭✭Turtyturd


    Is 'Low IQ' the new politically correct term?


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 22,559 ✭✭✭✭AnonoBoy


    Turtyturd wrote: »
    Is 'Low IQ' the new politically correct term?

    More 'descriptively accurate' rather than 'politically correct' I'd say.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,369 ✭✭✭✭ejmaztec


    They've come a long way since lunatics and imbeciles, like they've got on the old census records.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,199 ✭✭✭twinQuins


    Turtyturd wrote: »
    Is 'Low IQ' the new politically correct term?

    For what, exactly?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 9,067 ✭✭✭Ficheall


    Will this lead to them trying to ban people from having sex when they reach a certain level of intoxication or bakedness? One's ability to make informed decisions/complete an IQ test is certainly impaired in those situations.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,674 ✭✭✭lee_baby_simms


    Morkarleth wrote: »
    For what, exactly?

    'Retarded' I guess.

    'Mentally handicapped' seems appropriate in this case.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 81,060 ✭✭✭✭biko


    I don't know about you guys but low IQ in a partner is a turn-on.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 28,787 ✭✭✭✭ScumLord


    “one of the most basic human functions”
    No, it's one of the most basic biological functions. Sex is a fundamental part of pretty much every living thing, does any other animal understand what they're doing when they're having sex?

    I think this is very wrong, I can understand where problems would arise with someone like him having a baby and not being able to care for the child but that problem can be dealt with by just teaching him to use contraception or by giving him the snips but he should be allowed to enjoy himself and not be denied a basic right of life.


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Music Moderators, Politics Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 22,424 CMod ✭✭✭✭Dravokivich


    love... t'is a fools game anyway no?


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Music Moderators, Politics Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 22,424 CMod ✭✭✭✭Dravokivich


    ScumLord wrote: »
    No, it's one of the most basic biological functions. Sex is a fundamental part of pretty much every living thing, does any other animal understand what they're doing when they're having sex?

    I think this is very wrong, I can understand where problems would arise with someone like him having a baby and not being able to care for the child but that problem can be dealt with by just teaching him to use contraception or by giving him the snips but he should be allowed to enjoy himself and not be denied a basic right of life.

    he's gay too...


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,625 ✭✭✭✭BaZmO*


    ejmaztec wrote: »
    They've come a long way since lunatics and imbeciles, like they've got on the old census records.
    Is that not just a case of those words originally being the socially acceptable terms but because they are taken on board in everyday use they are then used in an insulting manor and therefore changed to the next socially acceptable term, and so on, and so on.

    Like Spastic and Handicapped, etc.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,156 ✭✭✭✭28064212


    Ficheall wrote: »
    Will this lead to them trying to ban people from having sex when they reach a certain level of intoxication or bakedness? One's ability to make informed decisions/complete an IQ test is certainly impaired in those situations.
    Ehh... date-rape? Drunken consent is not consent.
    ScumLord wrote: »
    No, it's one of the most basic biological functions. Sex is a fundamental part of pretty much every living thing, does any other animal understand what they're doing when they're having sex?

    I think this is very wrong, I can understand where problems would arise with someone like him having a baby and not being able to care for the child but that problem can be dealt with by just teaching him to use contraception or by giving him the snips but he should be allowed to enjoy himself and not be denied a basic right of life.
    Teaching him does not seem to be an option (he still thinks babies come from storks apparently).

    If he is incapable of giving informed consent, what can be done? You might as well pimp him out on the basis that he doesn't know the difference

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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,652 ✭✭✭✭El Weirdo


    stovelid wrote: »
    Wasn't a simlar ruling overturned before?

    Kerry Katona has kids doesn't she?
    As did Jade Goody.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,369 ✭✭✭✭ejmaztec


    BaZmO* wrote: »
    Is that not just a case of those words originally being the socially acceptable terms but because they are taken on board in everyday use they are then used in an insulting manor and therefore changed to the next socially acceptable term, and so on, and so on.

    Like Spastic and Handicapped, etc.

    I think that it was more like zero political correctness, and no-one gave a sh1t about offending anyone.

    On one set of old records, I found one family with two resident lunatics. I can imagine the people asking strange questions about the inhabitants of each property.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,059 ✭✭✭Screaminmidget


    What if his mother writes him a note????


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 28,787 ✭✭✭✭ScumLord


    28064212 wrote: »
    If he is incapable of giving informed consent, what can be done? You might as well pimp him out on the basis that he doesn't know the difference
    He didn't make that up, someone told him that. It looks more like over the course of his 41 years people have been with holding information from him which has done him no good at all. He is living in a fantasy world created for him by the people who told him all this stuff.

    Intercourse > impregnation > baby is not that difficult a concept especially with so much information out there. How is it protecting him telling him storks make babies? Him acting on that information can only lead to bad things.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,156 ✭✭✭✭28064212


    ScumLord wrote: »
    He didn't make that up, someone told him that. It looks more like over the course of his 41 years people have been with holding information from him which has done him no good at all. He is living in a fantasy world created for him by the people who told him all this stuff.

    Intercourse > impregnation > baby is not that difficult a concept especially with so much information out there. How is it protecting him telling him storks make babies? Him acting on that information can only lead to bad things.
    From the article:
    He said that the psychiatrist thought Alan “believed that babies were delivered by a stork or found under a bush”, and that “sex could give you spots or measles”.

    On that basis the judge ruled that Alan did not have the capacity to consent to sex, but also ordered that the council should provide him with sex education “in the hope that he thereby gains that capacity”.

    Boardsie Enhancement Suite - a browser extension to make using Boards on desktop a better experience (includes full-width display, keyboard shortcuts, dark mode, and more). Now available through your browser's extension store.

    Firefox: https://addons.mozilla.org/addon/boardsie-enhancement-suite/

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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,625 ✭✭✭✭BaZmO*


    ejmaztec wrote: »
    I think that it was more like zero political correctness, and no-one gave a sh1t about offending anyone.
    Well not really. It was the correct term to use back then.
    Meanings of words change all the time.

    ejmaztec wrote: »
    On one set of old records, I found one family with two resident lunatics. I can imagine the people asking strange questions about the inhabitants of each property.
    As you've said yourself, it was an option on the old Census returns.


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Music Moderators, Politics Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 22,424 CMod ✭✭✭✭Dravokivich


    ScumLord wrote: »
    He didn't make that up, someone told him that. It looks more like over the course of his 41 years people have been with holding information from him which has done him no good at all. He is living in a fantasy world created for him by the people who told him all this stuff.

    Intercourse > impregnation > baby is not that difficult a concept especially with so much information out there. How is it protecting him telling him storks make babies? Him acting on that information can only lead to bad things.

    I've seen similar before and recon sheltering someone heavily, without telling them what's what, is far more stifling to them developing mentally.


  • Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 23,257 Mod ✭✭✭✭GLaDOS


    28064212 wrote: »
    Drunken consent is not consent.
    Then there's a hell of a lot of rape every weekend...

    Cake, and grief counseling, will be available at the conclusion of the test



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,354 ✭✭✭smellslikeshoes


    28064212 wrote: »
    Ehh... date-rape? Drunken consent is not consent.

    What? If that was the case Ireland would be empty in a decade or two.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 28,404 ✭✭✭✭Turtyturd


    'Retarded' I guess.

    'Mentally handicapped' seems appropriate in this case.

    Yeah mentally handicapped would probably have been a better way of putting it. It just seems like the headline and the term Low IQ are being used to exaggerate the story somewhat as it portrays the guy as being a bit dim rather than handicapped.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,059 ✭✭✭Buceph


    Turtyturd wrote: »
    Yeah mentally handicapped would probably have been a better way of putting it. It just seems like the headline and the term Low IQ are being used to exaggerate the story somewhat as it portrays the guy as being a bit dim rather than handicapped.

    Handicap usually refers to a medical affliction, and retard has been used to mean Down's Syndrome for years.

    There could be nothing medically wrong with this guy, he could just be the weird outlier who is extremely lacking in intelligence.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 22,559 ✭✭✭✭AnonoBoy


    What? If that was the case Ireland would be empty in a decade or two.

    If drunken consent is not consent then there are a lot* of women who have raped me.












    *(for the purposes of this post 'a lot'=two)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,255 ✭✭✭✭The_Minister


    Can we all just agree that it depends on the degree of drunkeness in question, and then move on before the thread goes waaay off topic?


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,369 ✭✭✭✭ejmaztec


    BaZmO* wrote: »
    Well not really. It was the correct term to use back then.
    Meanings of words change all the time.

    The meanings of words do change all the time, and so do attitudes, which is why there would be uproar if similar questions were asked nowadays.


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