Fine Gael policy to end compusory Irish till Leaving Cert

kraggy · 07-02-2011 02:15PM

syklops wrote: »

I am sorry but that is a really really weak argument against the removal of compulsory teaching of Irish.

It't not my sole argument.

Let me ask you this: which would be better:

1. to make it optional and therfore reducing the number of young people being able to speak it to a certain standard; or

2. overhaul the system, make it interesting, reward students for being able to speak it instead of regurgitating on paper formulaic essays on the arguments for/against nuclear power?

I know which one I want.

Snakeblood · 07-02-2011 02:17PM

kraggy wrote: »

It't not my sole argument.

Let me ask you this: which would be better:

1. to make it optional and therfore reducing the number of young people being able to speak it to a certain standard; or

2. overhaul the system, make it interesting, reward students for being able to speak it instead of regurgitating on paper formulaic essays on the arguments for/against nuclear power?

I know which one I want.

What about
3: to make it optional and therefore reducing the number of young people being able to speak it to a certain standard; and overhaul the system, make it interesting, reward students for being able to speak it instead of regurgitating on paper formulaic essays on the arguments for/against nuclear power?

kraggy · 07-02-2011 02:20PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Yes, that's the case with every optional subject. Schools can't please everyone so resources should go to the most popular subjects. The time of Irish being afforded a special place is thankfully drawing to a close.

It'll be a sad day when more students will get to study Classical Studies instead of their country's language.

kraggy · 07-02-2011 02:22PM

Snakeblood wrote: »

What about
3: to make it optional and therefore reducing the number of young people being able to speak it to a certain standard; and overhaul the system, make it interesting, reward students for being able to speak it instead of regurgitating on paper formulaic essays on the arguments for/against nuclear power?

Ok, let's do that with English too.

Mark200 · 07-02-2011 02:23PM

david75 wrote: »

We'll see you out waving your union jack when the Queen visits no doubt?

there's nothing wrong with the Irish language but everything is wrong with the way it's taught and its cirriculum.

It's the last shred of our own culture we have left, we cling to it or just become a province of the Uk(which we are pretty much in every other aspect) our language being the one thing we have left to seperate us..

this would be devastating ..

You cling onto it all you want. But I don't see why you should stop others from doing something else for their Leaving Cert that they may find more useful.

Anyone with an interest in the language will still be able to do it for the Leaving Cert! These are the people who are likely to continue to speak it once they finish school. Ones that don't have an interest in the language will have forgotten most of it within a few years of leaving school. So all making the language compulsory does is somewhat prolong ones knowledge of it for 2 years. Hardly a big deal.

Iwasfrozen · 07-02-2011 02:23PM

kraggy wrote: »

It'll be a sad day when more students will get to study Classical Studies instead of their country's language.

I doubt the demand is there for classical studies. :cool:

But if there is some school in D4 that has a majority of students pining for classical studies ahead of Irish then c'est la vie that's democracy for ya.

syklops · 07-02-2011 02:24PM

kraggy wrote: »

It't not my sole argument.

Let me ask you this: which would be better:

1. to make it optional and therfore reducing the number of young people being able to speak it to a certain standard; or

2. overhaul the system, make it interesting, reward students for being able to speak it instead of regurgitating on paper formulaic essays on the arguments for/against nuclear power?

I know which one I want.

By making it compulsory you are breeding contempt of the language into a percentage of numerous generations. This damages the language in the long term and lessens the likelihood of the language being adopted on a larger scale.

Snakeblood · 07-02-2011 02:26PM

kraggy wrote: »

Ok, let's do that with English too.

That would be silly, English is commercially useful as well as the lingua franca of the nation. Making nonessential things optional seems more sensible.

I'll put it clearly: English and Irish are not on equal terms. Saying they should be treated equally is wrong. It's a bad argument that makes no sense. In the battle between English and Irish languages, English won. You might not like it, but that's where we are. Compulsory Irish makes people hate doing Irish. It could be a great subject with lots of fun aspects to it, but people don't like not having a choice in learning, and there is less obvious benefit to Irish for most people than for any other compulsory subject.

Megatron_X · 07-02-2011 02:26PM

It's a vicious circle. People go through the school system, and either get taught badly or are left with a bad taste in their mouth. This leaves them with a bad attitude towards the language that, whether they mean to or not, is usually passed on to others around them.

Some of these people grow up to have kids and make sure that their kids have the same opinions on the language of them. From my experience, most kids don't make an effort in Irish simply because it's the norm to complain about it.

Others of the same people who have had bad experiences with the language decide to be primary school teachers. But they have to study Irish in their degree to teach in any Irish school. Since they aren't actually passionate about the language, probably the opposite, most aim for the bare minimum level of Irish to teach. Then, as they teach, their lackluster Irish as well as their biased attitude towards it is passed on to primary school kids who are growing in a way that they tend to accept other people's opinions instead of making their own.

In my opinion, the reason why most children who go to All-Irish primary schools actually like the language is because, for the most part, there is a higher standard of Irish required to teach there, which tends to rule out the kind of people I mentioned above. Since they are then taught to a proper standard and there is no inadvertent tainting of children's opinions, they tend to take to the language.

Anyway, the problems with the way Irish is being taught is detrimental to itself. The whole system needs to be purged. Irish being compulsory or optional doesn't really matter at all, kids need to be taught properly and given an actual chance to learn the language in primary school. That's where it all matters.

Bad curriculum
Unfortunately, students with bad Irish and left with a bad taste in their mouth
Students grow up to be teachers with bad Irish and bad experiences
These teachers with already bad Irish teach students who now have worse Irish and a horrible taste left in their mouth
Those students pass their opinions onto their future kids
Repeat.

arch_stanton · 07-02-2011 02:27PM

As several others have suggested, Irish at second level should be split along the lines of Irish Language and Irish Literature. Let those who want to study poetry, peig etc do so but don't force it on everyone else. The real priority should be on practical spoken Irish so that by the time we leave school we can at least hold a proper conversation.

Irish class should be an english free zone from day 1. All teaching and interaction should be through Irish. After leaving school I took up Spanish classes for my own interest and that's the way it works. After over a year with the same teacher I actually didn't know if he spoke English. More use should also be made of resources like TnaG which we didn't have back in the day. This at least shows the language in a modern, living context.

Despite some tweaking over the years the whole way Irish is taught and examined is wrong. I'm firmly convinced that at leaving cert level it's rigged to give good grades to very poor students. If it were examined properly the numbers failing would rise dramatically. Even with the new proposals to place more emphasis on the oral exam they're still up to the same tricks. Most of the oral will be based on describing what's happening in a picture or cartoon shown by the examiner. These pictures will be available to the students months in advance so we're back to learning off stock answers just like we do in the essays and poetry/literature portions of the written exam.

kraggy · 07-02-2011 02:35PM

Snakeblood wrote: »

That would be silly, English is commercially useful as well as the lingua franca of the nation. Making nonessential things optional seems more sensible.

I'll put it clearly: English and Irish are not on equal terms. Saying they should be treated equally is wrong. It's a bad argument that makes no sense. In the battle between English and Irish languages, English won. You might not like it, but that's where we are. Compulsory Irish makes people hate doing Irish. It could be a great subject with lots of fun aspects to it, but people don't like not having a choice in learning, and there is less obvious benefit to Irish for most people than for any other compulsory subject.

If your main reason for making it not compulsory is resources etc, why not cut other subjects like Classical Studies, Japanese, Lithuanian?

Why does Irish have to be targetted for cuts?

Snakeblood · 07-02-2011 02:40PM

kraggy wrote: »

If your main reason for making it not compulsory is resources etc, why not cut other subjects like Classical Studies, Japanese, Lithuanian?

Why does Irish have to be targetted for cuts?

Classical Studies, Japanese and Lithuanian aren't compulsory. If there aren't enough numbers to support them, they'll be cut.

Irish is compulsory, despite large numbers of people not wanting to do it.

Do you see there is a difference there?

syklops · 07-02-2011 02:43PM

kraggy wrote: »

If your main reason for making it not compulsory is resources etc, why not cut other subjects like Classical Studies, Japanese, Lithuanian?

Why does Irish have to be targetted for cuts?

But his main argument is not resources, his argument is along similar lines as me. By having it compulsory it damages the language. People want to be able to make their own choices when it comes to their own education. Forcing people to take the subject just makes people bitter towards the language. As has been pointed out, this bitterness breeds bitterness and over time the language becomes less popular.

Can you not see that having it as a compulsory language damages the language?

deise go deo · 07-02-2011 02:48PM

mickydoomsux wrote: »

A tiny percentage of people speak it and that's pretty much only out of being awkward "FOOK DA BRITS" dinosaurs.

It's a dead language, the vast majority if people in this country speak English, if Irish was made completely optional in schools it would be pretty much gone completely in 20-ish years.

That is extreamly ignorent. Irish speakers speak Irish, It is their first language, Get over it. It has nothing to do with Britain.:rolleyes:

Irish is NOT a dead language. By the definition of what a dead language is, Irish is not dead.

Roverek · 07-02-2011 03:05PM

Irish language is dying. You can try to keep it artificially, but it doesn't work. Changing the curriculum does nothing. Language should be learnt at home, and just polish at school. Most of Irish do not speak Irish, and they will not speak, thanks to compulsary Irish. English is the main language, and it will stay like this.
Could you tell me how the knowledge of Irish could help in dealing with IMF?
Maths that is the problem in schools with 48% unqualified teachers.
Knowledge of maths could help you to deal with IMF.
If you are rich with romantic love to Irish , learn it. Donot make others to pay for your romaticism.

Amhran Nua · 07-02-2011 03:14PM

Snakeblood wrote: »

I'll put it clearly: English and Irish are not on equal terms. Saying they should be treated equally is wrong. It's a bad argument that makes no sense. In the battle between English and Irish languages, English won.

But there wasn't a battle between English and Irish, there was a centuries long occupation by the English who made a determined, extended and violent effort to stamp out the Irish language. It's not like a panel of judges sat down one day and considered each on their individual merits. This isn't an "800 years" thing either, its hard reality.

Bottom line is, a determined effort was made to destroy it, now a determined effort is being made to restore it, and whatever else we can salvage from that time. And rightly so.

The Irish language is a vital part of our culture, and before anyone starts moaning about the value of culture, think about making the national flag a uniform grey sheet and stop the sale of all clothes in colours outside grey. People aren't machines, there's more than the sum of our biological parts in there.

It may be fashionable in some circles to reject the idea of a cultural identity, but really, grow up. Some of the most wonderful works of art, poetry, and creative effort grew from cultural identities, and I for one am very interested to see what works the artists of the future will produce. I find the bland ideal of "European" culture to be tedious and tasteless at best.

So lets talk about the value of culture; what value does it really have? Well one great example is the riverdance show and its derivatives, four times the population of this country have paid good hard cash to see it. Flatley has purchased a private castle for himself on the back of it, his great grandchildren need never work a day in their lives. I sure don't see anyone lining up for Morris dancing.

People like Irish culture, and want to get more of it, it has a solid, quantifiable economic value. And of course, language is a vital part of that - how would you feel if you went to say Japan and found everyone there conversing in English with a Texan drawl? You'd feel diminished, lessened, as though the world was a little less bright. And you wouldn't be going back either.

One other note: I don't think Inda has more than a cúpla focail himself, so we'll have a Taoiseach who doesn't speak the language of the nation. I'll still be voting FG, because god help us if "union friendly" Labour or the rest of them get into power, but he shouldn't be given free rein in this matter.

Overhaul the curriculum, now, don't remove it!

syklops · 07-02-2011 03:22PM

Amhran Nua wrote: »

But there wasn't a battle between English and Irish, there was a centuries long occupation by the English who made a determined, extended and violent effort to stamp out the Irish language. It's not like a panel of judges sat down one day and considered each on their individual merits. This isn't an "800 years" thing either, its hard reality.

Bottom line is, a determined effort was made to destroy it, now a determined effort is being made to restore it, and whatever else we can salvage from that time. And rightly so.

The Irish language is a vital part of our culture, and before anyone starts moaning about the value of culture, think about making the national flag a uniform grey sheet and stop the sale of all clothes in colours outside grey. People aren't machines, there's more than the sum of our biological parts in there.

It may be fashionable in some circles to reject the idea of a cultural identity, but really, grow up. Some of the most wonderful works of art, poetry, and creative effort grew from cultural identities, and I for one am very interested to see what works the artists of the future will produce. I find the bland ideal of "European" culture to be tedious and tasteless at best.

So lets talk about the value of culture; what value does it really have? Well one great example is the riverdance show and its derivatives, four times the population of this country have paid good hard cash to see it. Flatley has purchased a private castle for himself on the back of it, his great grandchildren need never work a day in their lives.

People like Irish culture, and want to get more of it, it has a solid, quantifiable economic value. And of course, language is a vital part of that - how would you feel if you went to say Japan and found everyone there conversing in English with a Texan drawl? You'd feel dimished, lessened, as though the world was a little less bright. And you wouldn't be going back either.

One other note: I don't think Inda has more than a cúpla focail himself, so we'll have a Taoiseach who doesn't speak the language of the nation. I'll still be voting FG, because god help us if "union friendly" Labour or the rest of them get into power, but he shouldn't be given free rein in this matter.

Overhaul the curriculum, now, don't remove it!

Enda Kenny is a fluent Irish speaker. He addressed the crowd who were protesting against him in Irish for several minutes.

Either way, why is that relevant?

My goal and that of several other people on this thread is not the death of the language. If anything it is the opposite, but making the teaching of irish compulsory hurts the language. More so than making it optional.

Amhran Nua · 07-02-2011 03:26PM

syklops wrote: »

Enda Kenny is a fluent Irish speaker. He addressed the crowd who were protesting against him in Irish for several minutes.

I stand corrected, I seem to recall reading that recently.

syklops wrote: »

My goal and that of several other people on this thread is not the death of the language. If anything it is the opposite, but making the teaching of irish compulsory hurts the language. More so than making it optional.

The way it is taught is hurting the language. That it is taught is not. My point is that it has a very real value, which might not be as immediately apparent as say physics or chemistry or the STEM subjects.

Snakeblood · 07-02-2011 03:27PM

Amhran Nua wrote: »

But there wasn't a battle between English and Irish, there was a centuries long occupation by the English who made a determined, extended and violent effort to stamp out the Irish language. It's not like a panel of judges sat down one day and considered each on their individual merits. This isn't an "800 years" thing either, its hard reality.

Overhaul the curriculum, now, don't remove it!

I think Irish has value but it needs to be taught to people who want to learn it. They'll learn better without people who are obviously disinterested in it. It's not essential to a student. Make it a better subject for study and more worthwhile.

I'm not suggesting it be removed from the curriculum, just that people not have to keep at it for the entirety of their school days. All you get from that is a small number of Irish speakers and a large number of people who have no interest and feel that they should have been offered a choice.

deise go deo · 07-02-2011 03:30PM

Roverek wrote: »

Irish language is dying. You can try to keep it artificially, but it doesn't work.

No it is not, Irish is growing, Just look at the figures for the growth of the Gaelscoil/GaelCholaiste movement over the last 30 years. Demand is still far ahead of supply.

Changing the curriculum does nothing.

Evidience?

Language should be learnt at home, and just polish at school. Most of Irish do not speak Irish, and they will not speak, thanks to compulsary Irish. English is the main language, and it will stay like this.
Could you tell me how the knowledge of Irish could help in dealing with IMF?
Maths that is the problem in schools with 48% unqualified teachers.
Knowledge of maths could help you to deal with IMF.
If you are rich with romantic love to Irish , learn it. Donot make others to pay for your romaticism.

Sorry but there isent a limited amount of space in someons head, You dont forget things when you learn other things. We can Improve Maths and still teach Irish. You offer a false choice.

Amhran Nua · 07-02-2011 03:35PM

Snakeblood wrote: »

I think Irish has value but it needs to be taught to people who want to learn it. They'll learn better without people who are obviously disinterested in it. It's not essential to a student. Make it a better subject for study and more worthwhile.

The dangers of utilitarian approaches to education are well understood. By that criteria every subject should be optional.

Snakeblood wrote: »

I'm not suggesting it be removed from the curriculum, just that people not have to keep at it for the entirety of their school days. All you get from that is a small number of Irish speakers and a large number of people who have no interest and feel that they should have been offered a choice.

I understand that. Here's the thing though, some people want to make creationism a part of the curriculum, not in Ireland, but it does emphasise the point that some things are important enough to make mandatory. I think the restoration of Irish to its status as a widespread national language is important enough, and I've outlined the reasons why.

The whole discussion is coloured by the experiences many posters here may have had with learning Irish in school. It was taught very badly, and still is. I know I had some fairly useless Irish teachers, helped not at all by a useless curriculum. I'm quite capable of putting that aside and looking at the bigger picture however, and I think most people are too.

Amhran Nua · 07-02-2011 03:36PM

Roverek wrote: »

and just polish at school

Wait, what?

LordSutch · 07-02-2011 03:39PM

mike65 wrote: »

Just heard it mentioned on radio.

Is this the saviour of the language?

Yes, I think it is > A great idea by Fine Gael, and one that should have been addressed decades ago. Both Enda Kenny & Sharon Ni Bheolain (of RTE fame) are fluent Irish speakers, and both advocate the easing of the mandatory nature of its teaching, Why? because decades of compulsory Irish has made many many people grow up to hate the language, (and most of us don't speak it), add to that the billions of Euro that are being spent & pumped into its compulsive teaching (with little reward over decades) and you can see that a relaxation might be the way to go.
Ease the compulsion & encourage the language through "non-draconian methods" > I think this is their message.

Amhran Nua · 07-02-2011 03:40PM

LordSutch wrote: »

because decades of compulsory Irish has made many many people grow up to hate the language

That would be decades of completely useless teaching methods and curriculums.

Roverek · 07-02-2011 03:44PM

deise go deo wrote: »

No it is not, Irish is growing, Just look at the figures for the growth of the Gaelscoil/GaelCholaiste movement over the last 30 years. Demand is still far ahead of supply.
.

At the foundation of the Irish State there were 250,000 fluent Irish speakers living in Irish-speaking or semi Irish-speaking areas, but the number now is between 20,000 and 30,000.

Compulsary Irish, well done.

LordSutch · 07-02-2011 03:46PM

Amhran Nua wrote: »

That would be decades of completely useless teaching methods and curriculums.

That is true.

deise go deo · 07-02-2011 03:50PM

Roverek wrote: »

At the foundation of the Irish State there were 250,000 fluent Irish speakers living in Irish-speaking or semi Irish-speaking areas, but the number now is between 20,000 and 30,000.

Compulsary Irish, well done.

How could compulsory Irish affect the Gaelthacht's? Why would it have a negative impact on them?

As for your claim that Irish is dying, can you provide evidience that shows that Irish is dying today? (Over the last 15 years or so)

Snakeblood · 07-02-2011 03:50PM

Amhran Nua wrote: »

The dangers of utilitarian approaches to education are well understood. By that criteria every subject should be optional.

I understand that. Here's the thing though, some people want to make creationism a part of the curriculum, not in Ireland, but it does emphasise the point that some things are important enough to make mandatory. I think the restoration of Irish to its status as a widespread national language is important enough, and I've outlined the reasons why.

The whole discussion is coloured by the experiences many posters here may have had with learning Irish in school. It was taught very badly, and still is. I know I had some fairly useless Irish teachers, helped not at all by a useless curriculum. I'm quite capable of putting that aside and looking at the bigger picture however, and I think most people are too.

Nah, English and Math for example in Ireland have proven they are useful to the overwhelming majority of students. People need those. They should be mandatory. Then after that there should be more of a choice given to students.

I'm capable also, I don't actually mind Irish and I had good teachers, but looking at it from my perspective then and now, I still don't understand why I had no choice in a language that I didn't want to learn and no one was able to explain why I was learning a language I'd never really be able to speak with others. That's not a chip on my shoulder about bad lessons, that was not seeing what sense learning Irish made. There are a lot of people who feel like me. I don't want my daughter to have to learn Irish. I'm thinking of sticking her in an Irish school, but I want that to be my and my daughters choice.

I see what you are saying, but whether someone learns Irish or not doesn't make them bad citizens, and doesn't fill their head with rubbish. It *might* help with a sense of national identity (although I'm not sure it has so far) but my current belief is that people have to be willing to learn Irish to successfully learn it, and most aren't.

I'm fine with Irish as a national language, I think it's an uphill struggle, and I think that there'll have to be some sort of need for Irish to make it regain something like its former importance. Like if Sinn Fein came to power on a nationalist fervour after the entire country goes belly up, it might provide a spark for the revival, but at the moment I don't see the spark, and I think forcing people to do something extinguishes any possible spark. There needs to be an advantage to Irish. it can be an emotional one, but it was never made clear.

Anyway, I think I'm done with this as we're not really going to convince each other of what at the moment is opinion, but it was interesting. Cheers!

Guy:Incognito · 07-02-2011 03:56PM

david75 wrote: »

Lotta people all this country still living in 3rd world conditions, but even if they aren't, should we let our heritage and culture die .

Why force "heritage and culture" on people that dotn want it?

If the only thing keeping Irish people as Irish is the language, then my opinion is "Meh".

Mental Mickey · 07-02-2011 03:57PM

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

Why force "heritage and culture" on people that dotn want it?

If the only thing keeping Irish people as Irish is the language, then my opinion is "Meh".

Very insightful. :rolleyes:

Fine Gael policy to end compusory Irish till Leaving Cert

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