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Fine Gael policy to end compusory Irish till Leaving Cert

24567…30

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  • #32
    Snakeblood
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,466 ✭✭✭Snakeblood


    deise go deo wrote: »
    Here is what is up on the facebook group for Keeping Irish as a compulsory subject.


    For my part, I would be genuinly shocked if Enda went ahead with this Idea. It will be opposed every step of the way.

    None of those deal with the central 'Why should we be learning Irish' idea. They centre on 'Why (a language) should be obligatory', and most other languages in schools have some tangible benefit to them. If that group wants to explain why Irish specifically should be kept as a mandatory language, they'd be better off sticking up a rationale.

    Why should people care if it does irreparable damage to our native tongue if so few people can speak it? What's the benefit of the entire country being fully fluent in Irish?


  • #33
    mickydoomsux
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,287 ✭✭✭mickydoomsux


    deise go deo wrote: »
    No it is not. :rolleyes:

    A tiny percentage of people speak it and that's pretty much only out of being awkward "FOOK DA BRITS" dinosaurs.

    It's a dead language, the vast majority if people in this country speak English, if Irish was made completely optional in schools it would be pretty much gone completely in 20-ish years.


  • #34
    Cheeky_gal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,166 ✭✭✭Cheeky_gal


    mike65 wrote: »
    Fine Gael policy to end compusory Irish till Leaving Cert


    I hated learning Irish with a passion but this would be an awful shame.


  • #35
    ballsymchugh
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,940 ✭✭✭ballsymchugh


    mickydoomsux wrote: »
    A tiny percentage of people speak it and that's pretty much only out of being awkward "FOOK DA BRITS" dinosaurs.

    It's a dead language, the vast majority if people in this country speak English, if Irish was made completely optional in schools it would be pretty much gone completely in 20-ish years.

    i'm pretty sure most of the people south of the border that do speak it regularly couldn't give a toss about whatever brits are doing where.
    there's a few irish speaking quarters in belfast and plans for one in derry that may have an alternative view on the brits though..


  • #36
    Carl Sagan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 856 ✭✭✭Carl Sagan


    Needs a reform to be honest. So do a lot of the subjects.


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  • #37
    kraggy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,414 ✭✭✭kraggy


    Deleted User wrote: »
    The other big thing about the curriculum is that it doesn't allow full immersion.. If you want to explain the hundred different emotions the poetry inspires in you, ya have to use english.

    There should never be a word of English in an Irish class. We should be taught conversational Irish from day 1..

    There are more words/expressions in Gaeilge that cannot be said in English than vice versa.

    Gaeilge is one of the most earthly languages in the world.

    My biggest fear is that if it becomes optional, you could have many students who want to do it for the Leaving Cert but can't because the numbers just aren't quite sufficient for the school to run a class.

    Concentration should be placed on the oral aspect. Attribute 75% of the marks towards a series of oral exams instead of 25% or whatever it is for a half hour oral exam. That would get the students talking it amongst themselves instead of learning about Peig Seyers and poetry stuff that kids simply can't relate to.

    An oral could consist of types of questions such as:

    Explain to me how to get to the local supermarket from the school.
    Describe your locality. What do you dislike about your area? (Teenagers are grumpy and like complaining, they'll enjoy this)
    Who do you think will win X factor? Who do you think will win X factor?

    Keep it relevant to the students' lives and it will succeed. And for goodness sake, entice them into learning how to speak the language. Give them reward, i.e. the bulk of the marks should be for speaking it!

    It's a cool language. And to whoever said it's dead, maybe it is in your world, but the fact of the matter is,

    My girlfriend speaks it every day at work
    a friend of mine speaks it every day at work
    I speak both English and Gaeilge with both of them and others.

    Please don't make such ridiculous remarks just because you don't speak it and nobody you know speaks it. The world encompasses more people and greater things than your narrow mind.


  • #38
    Renn
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,255 ✭✭✭Renn


    Does mike65 even have an opinion on this?


  • #39
    Captain Darling
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,542 ✭✭✭Captain Darling


    IvySlayer wrote: »
    Restructure the entire thing.

    Learning Irish poetry and stories was ****ing ridiculous and it has not once benfited me in life. Start teaching in like the way French/German is. Considering Irish has to be learned through all of our school life and Irish is still dying as a language, is that not a sign the current cirrculum is not suitable?

    The way its taught doesnt work. My german was better then my irish when i finished school....


  • #40
    KerranJast
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,828 ✭✭✭KerranJast


    It's a pretty crazy situation where 6th Class kids conversational Irish is better than Leaving Cert honours students.
    I got a B2 in Honours Irish but if someone wanted to have a chat to me as Gaeilge I'd have floundered whereas my 12 year old self would have had no bother. I was well able to write a generic essay about suicide or drugs though :rolleyes:


  • #41
    david75
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,611 ✭✭✭david75


    A perfect example of why we should fight to keep it as much as we can, 'cos without it we're lost

    Loss of Irish damaged confidence, book claims

    LORNA SIGGINS, Western Correspondent

    A CONTROVERSIAL claim has been made in a new study that Irish parents who believed their children only had a future with the English language may have been contributing to a loss of economic creativity and self-confidence.
    The analysis by Dr John Walsh, lecturer in NUI Galway’s school of language, literature and culture, contends that the shift from Irish to English use in the 19th century had a detrimental effect on both Ireland’s economy and its society.
    His new work has been described by Prof Peadar Kirby, who is professor of international politics at University of Limerick (UL), as “one of the most important books written on the Irish language for a very long time”.
    “For the first time, it examines the claim made by authors as far back as Thomas Davis in the 1840s and up to historian Joe Lee’s magisterial book of 1989 that the decline of Irish as the vernacular language has had a detrimental effect on Ireland’s socio-economic development,” he said.
    Prof Kirby was speaking at the book’s publication in Galway City Museum.
    “The experience of language shift in the 19th century was a remarkably painful experience,” he said.
    “This is a point which has not been acknowledged, but which affected us deeply. Contrast our sense of confidence and creativity with Scandinavian countries which held on to their languages,” he said.
    “Walsh’s book adopts a rigorous social scientific approach to interrogating this claim, contributing important insights not only to debates about Ireland’s future development but also to international debates about culture and development,” the professor told those attending the launch.
    “Coming at a time of major national reappraisal of where we are going as a society, this book has a huge contribution to make to charting the road towards a better future.”
    Dr Walsh was appointed as a Fulbright Irish Language Scholar in 2009, and he subsequently spent six months engaged in researching the subject matter of the book at the University of California, Santa Cruz, in the United States.
    He examined previous writing on the issue, dating back to Thomas Davis and Douglas Hyde, and chose three Gaeltacht areas as case studies.
    He also investigated areas outside the traditional Gaeltacht, such as Galway city and west Belfast. Dr Walsh additionally examined the new development policy of Údarás na Gaeltachta, and looked at the changing focus of the organisation, particularly in the light of renewed concern about the strength of Irish in the Gaeltacht.
    “I conclude that we need a new theoretical model, combining elements of sociolinguistics and socio-cultural development, in order to better understand the link between language and development,” Dr Walsh said.

    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2011/0201/1224288693721.html


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  • #42
    Snakeblood
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,466 ✭✭✭Snakeblood


    kraggy wrote: »

    Please don't make such ridiculous remarks just because you don't speak it and nobody you know speaks it. The world encompasses more people and greater things than your narrow mind.

    Could say the same thing for you. You want to waste time (granted, you don't see it that way, but a lot of people do) on a language that a tiny percentage of a tiny population speak. Pretty narrowminded.


  • #43
    KerranJast
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,828 ✭✭✭KerranJast


    david75 wrote: »
    A perfect example of why we should fight to keep it as much as we can, 'cos without it we're lost

    Loss of Irish damaged confidence, book claims

    LORNA SIGGINS, Western Correspondent

    A CONTROVERSIAL claim has been made in a new study that Irish parents who believed their children only had a future with the English language may have been contributing to a loss of economic creativity and self-confidence.
    The analysis by Dr John Walsh, lecturer in NUI Galway’s school of language, literature and culture, contends that the shift from Irish to English use in the 19th century had a detrimental effect on both Ireland’s economy and its society.
    His new work has been described by Prof Peadar Kirby, who is professor of international politics at University of Limerick (UL), as “one of the most important books written on the Irish language for a very long time”.
    “For the first time, it examines the claim made by authors as far back as Thomas Davis in the 1840s and up to historian Joe Lee’s magisterial book of 1989 that the decline of Irish as the vernacular language has had a detrimental effect on Ireland’s socio-economic development,” he said.
    Prof Kirby was speaking at the book’s publication in Galway City Museum.
    “The experience of language shift in the 19th century was a remarkably painful experience,” he said.
    “This is a point which has not been acknowledged, but which affected us deeply. Contrast our sense of confidence and creativity with Scandinavian countries which held on to their languages,” he said.
    “Walsh’s book adopts a rigorous social scientific approach to interrogating this claim, contributing important insights not only to debates about Ireland’s future development but also to international debates about culture and development,” the professor told those attending the launch.
    “Coming at a time of major national reappraisal of where we are going as a society, this book has a huge contribution to make to charting the road towards a better future.”
    Dr Walsh was appointed as a Fulbright Irish Language Scholar in 2009, and he subsequently spent six months engaged in researching the subject matter of the book at the University of California, Santa Cruz, in the United States.
    He examined previous writing on the issue, dating back to Thomas Davis and Douglas Hyde, and chose three Gaeltacht areas as case studies.
    He also investigated areas outside the traditional Gaeltacht, such as Galway city and west Belfast. Dr Walsh additionally examined the new development policy of Údarás na Gaeltachta, and looked at the changing focus of the organisation, particularly in the light of renewed concern about the strength of Irish in the Gaeltacht.
    “I conclude that we need a new theoretical model, combining elements of sociolinguistics and socio-cultural development, in order to better understand the link between language and development,” Dr Walsh said.
    Ireland in the 19th Century was a 3rd World country in a lot of respects and a huge majority of the population were illiterate to boot.
    As a nation we are much better off economically having English as our primary language.


  • #44
    kraggy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,414 ✭✭✭kraggy


    Renn wrote: »
    Does mike65 even have an opinion on this?

    mike65 has a history of having disdain for the language even though he is English and it shouldn't bother him, but for some reason it does.

    He has called it useless, silly and other derogatory terms in the past.

    Major chip on his shoulder.


  • #45
    syklops
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,966 ✭✭✭✭syklops


    Cheeky_gal wrote: »
    I hated learning Irish with a passion but this would be an awful shame.

    He is just end the compulsory teaching of irish. He is not banning it. It would still be an option. How would that be shameful?

    As has been said, it needs a complete overhaul in the way it is taught. After about 6 months of not trying very hard, I now speak more Czech than I do Irish, after 14 years of education. That is honestly embarrassing for me and for the Department of Education. I also speak more French than I do Irish and that was only after 6 years of schooling.

    Surely the people who are campaigning to have the language remain compulsory can see that something is wrong with the current situation. To suggest that the current situation is fine is ridiculous. The subject being compulsory has not dramatically improved the uptake of the language. If anything it has damaged it further. Making it optional might improve things.


  • #46
    david75
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,611 ✭✭✭david75


    KerranJast wrote: »
    Ireland in the 19th Century was a 3rd World country in a lot of respects and a huge majority of the population were illiterate to boot.
    As a nation we are much better off economically having English as our primary language.

    Lotta people all this country still living in 3rd world conditions, but even if they aren't, should we let our heritage and culture die and become watered down west brits/europeans(take your pick) just because people like you are feckless about it? Reform how it's taught(and every other language as well as maths,) go for it..but leave it out to die? which it surely will if the option is presented? definitely not.


  • #47
    Notorious97
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,479 ✭✭✭Notorious97


    syklops wrote: »
    He is just end the compulsory teaching of irish. He is not banning it. It would still be an option. How would that be shameful?

    As has been said, it needs a complete overhaul in the way it is taught. After about 6 months of not trying very hard, I now speak more Czech than I do Irish, after 14 years of education. That is honestly embarrassing for me and for the Department of Education. I also speak more French than I do Irish and that was only after 6 years of schooling.

    Surely the people who are campaigning to have the language remain compulsory can see that something is wrong with the current situation. To suggest that the current situation is fine is ridiculous. The subject being compulsory has not dramatically improved the uptake of the language. If anything it has damaged it further. Making it optional might improve things.


    I don’t think any of us who want it to remain compulsory are happy with how it is taught.

    I don’t want it optional, but the system needs an overhaul on it definitely! I think the idea it should be split into two modules, language and literature is a good idea.


  • #48
    kraggy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,414 ✭✭✭kraggy


    Snakeblood wrote: »
    Could say the same thing for you. You want to waste time (granted, you don't see it that way, but a lot of people do) on a language that a tiny percentage of a tiny population speak. Pretty narrowminded.

    So my speaking 2 languages daily, instead of 1 = narrow mind ???

    And it's a waste of time speaking Gaeilge how? It's one my languages. Would you say to a South African that their speaking Afrikaans is a waste of time?


  • #49
    kraggy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,414 ✭✭✭kraggy


    syklops wrote: »
    He is just end the compulsory teaching of irish. He is not banning it. It would still be an option. How would that be shameful?

    As has been said, it needs a complete overhaul in the way it is taught. After about 6 months of not trying very hard, I now speak more Czech than I do Irish, after 14 years of education. That is honestly embarrassing for me and for the Department of Education. I also speak more French than I do Irish and that was only after 6 years of schooling.

    Surely the people who are campaigning to have the language remain compulsory can see that something is wrong with the current situation. To suggest that the current situation is fine is ridiculous. The subject being compulsory has not dramatically improved the uptake of the language. If anything it has damaged it further. Making it optional might improve things.


    Because there could be cases where students who want to study it for leaving cert wouldn't be able to because the numbers wouldn't be sufficient in their school.


  • #50
    Snakeblood
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,466 ✭✭✭Snakeblood


    kraggy wrote: »
    Because there could be cases where students who want to study it for leaving cert wouldn't be able to because the numbers wouldn't be sufficient in their school.

    But there definitely will be many many more cases of students who don't want to study it but are forced to instead of learning something else? Is it really worth the cost?


  • #51
    david75
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,611 ✭✭✭david75


    We're too immersed in British culture and far too subject to it as a people for young people to take up the option of doing Irish if it became one.

    There'd be a bigger outcry if you banned British soccer matches off our screens and as a statement about us as a people, how depressing is that?

    Yet the same morons will go on in the pub about 'hating English people' yet they won't defend their language or their heritage.

    The only time they feel pride is when they have their tricolour boxers on when they're over in Alicante. Safe to say i'm proably addressing a few of the feckless in this thread.


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  • #52
    Iwasfrozen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    kraggy wrote: »
    Because there could be cases where students who want to study it for leaving cert wouldn't be able to because the numbers wouldn't be sufficient in their school.
    That's a problem with every subject not just Irish. The really determined will find a way through though. Like the girl in the year ahead of me who wanted to be a pharmacist even though chemistry wasn't offered in our school. Instead she studyed it outside of school.


  • #53
    aDeener
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,487 ✭✭✭aDeener


    mickydoomsux wrote: »
    A tiny percentage of people speak it and that's pretty much only out of being awkward "FOOK DA BRITS" dinosaurs.

    It's a dead language, the vast majority if people in this country speak English, if Irish was made completely optional in schools it would be pretty much gone completely in 20-ish years.

    you sir, are living proof that our whole education system is a failure :rolleyes:


  • #54
    ryaner012
    Closed Accounts Posts: 53 ✭✭ryaner012


    it's not just the Irish language syllabus that should be restructured but the foreign languages that are taught are only useful from a 70's approach when we would only really look as far as Europe.

    People that say that Irish is a dead language are wrong, I was force fed it all the way through school and was never good at it and didn't like it but I like it now and wish that i was better at it.

    I took French at school which I think is still one of the most popular languages taught at school, yet it is pointless. More international languages like Spanish of Chinese should be taught in schools instead of people taking French


  • #55
    syklops
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,966 ✭✭✭✭syklops


    kraggy wrote: »
    Because there could be cases where students who want to study it for leaving cert wouldn't be able to because the numbers wouldn't be sufficient in their school.

    That shows a pretty low confidence in the language if you think by making it compulsory so few people will choose it that they wont be able to find a teacher for them.

    Only 2 people in my year did applied maths but they were still accommodated. 2 girls in my class took Russian for their leaving and they had a class organised for them. A friend of mine wanted to do a class that our school did not provide so he changed schools. Thats how the game works.

    If it really does occur that so few people opt in for irish that there are not enough numbers for a regular class in a school, then surely you can see that making it compulsory only damages the language?


  • #56
    mike65
    Closed Accounts Posts: 88,968 ✭✭✭✭mike65


    Renn wrote: »
    Does mike65 even have an opinion on this?

    Not particuarly, its not my language. From a political point of view its intersting - a bit like the PDs suggesting removing God from the constitution back in the early 90s (that went down well at the time - not!). Looking at the terrible way the language is taught, I've lived here since 9 so was compelled to cope with Peig et al and its clear
    changes are required. Whether dropping compulsion is the way is a debatable point of course. Changing the way Irish is taught is surely what should come first for Irish natives. The matter should be left open for foreigner children.


  • #57
    kraggy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,414 ✭✭✭kraggy


    Snakeblood wrote: »
    But there definitely will be many many more cases of students who don't want to study it but are forced to instead of learning something else? Is it really worth the cost?

    Yes, if it's done right. The way that Gaeilge has been taught up to now has to stop. Radical reform is needed.

    But to deny children the chance to study it for Leaving Cert is wrong. That's what taking away compulsory Gaeilge would do.

    Also, what about the cost of English? What relevance does reading Hard Times or Circus Animals' Desertion have? What good is that to working life? It's not even the type of English we use in the real world.


  • #58
    kraggy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,414 ✭✭✭kraggy


    syklops wrote: »
    That shows a pretty low confidence in the language if you think by making it compulsory so few people will choose it that they wont be able to find a teacher for them.

    Only 2 people in my year did applied maths but they were still accommodated. 2 girls in my class took Russian for their leaving and they had a class organised for them. A friend of mine wanted to do a class that our school did not provide so he changed schools. Thats how the game works.

    If it really does occur that so few people opt in for irish that there are not enough numbers for a regular class in a school, then surely you can see that making it compulsory only damages the language?


    I never said it would the case in all schools. I'm saying that it could happen in isolated incidents.

    So those kids who want to study it should have to move school after building up frienships with other kids in the school and got used to attending that particular school should have to give that up, move schools, risk being alienated in a new school because teenagers can be cruel to outsiders, just because they want to studay their native language for the Leaving Cert?


  • #59
    syklops
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,966 ✭✭✭✭syklops


    kraggy wrote: »
    I never said it would the case in all schools. I'm saying that it could happen in isolated incidents.

    So those kids who want to study it should have to move school after building up frienships with other kids in the school and got used to attending that particular school should have to give that up, move schools, risk being alienated in a new school because teenagers can be cruel to outsiders, just because they want to studay their native language for the Leaving Cert?

    I am sorry but that is a really really weak argument against the removal of compulsory teaching of Irish.


  • #60
    Snakeblood
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,466 ✭✭✭Snakeblood


    kraggy wrote: »
    Yes, if it's done right. The way that Gaeilge has been taught up to now has to stop. Radical reform is needed.

    But to deny children the chance to study it for Leaving Cert is wrong. That's what taking away compulsory Gaeilge would do.

    Also, what about the cost of English? What relevance does reading Hard Times or Circus Animals' Desertion have? What good is that to working life? It's not even the type of English we use in the real world.

    Irish definitely needs reform if it's not completely ditched.

    I don't see how the benefit to the extraordinary minority of children outweighs the benefit to the majority who might get to learn something else.

    Learning how to speak proper English is useful for business, and useful for interacting with other nations. Reading literature improves spelling, grammar vocabulary and makes it easier to illustrate concepts and thoughts.

    Learning how to speak proper Irish is useful for: speaking to other people who also speak Irish, but who probably won't because most people in Ireland have English as a lingua franca, and that will be extraordinarily difficult to change given the English television and marketing we get here, and the relative paucity and lack of budget of Irish television.

    Incidentally, reading Hard Times probably would give an understanding of the downside of utilitarianism and how that not everything can be measured in practical use, and there's a dimension of soul that should be attached to things to appreciate them fully.:)


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  • #61
    Iwasfrozen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    kraggy wrote: »
    I never said it would the case in all schools. I'm saying that it could happen in isolated incidents.

    So those kids who want to study it should have to move school after building up frienships with other kids in the school and got used to attending that particular school should have to give that up, move schools, risk being alienated in a new school because teenagers can be cruel to outsiders, just because they want to studay their native language for the Leaving Cert?
    Yes, that's the case with every optional subject. Schools can't please everyone so resources should go to the most popular subjects. The time of Irish being afforded a special place is thankfully drawing to a close.


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