Its official : public sector pay per hour is 49% higher than private sector

Citizen_Cutback · 31-01-2011 11:00AM

noodler wrote: »

What someone gets paid in a private sector company really isn't anybody's concern but the company in question. Benchmarking?

A Private compnay will pay what it can afford and will only pay what it makes sense to pay.

The Government has to pay within its means.

Public Sector workers complaining about private sector companies paying their employees too much is not really relevant - if the company can't afford it, it will go bust.

I suppose you were thinking of the Banks when you made this statement.

But isn't that the real problem:

The Government has to pay for the mistakes of Bonker Bankers ergo Public Employee's pay must be cut!

Welease · 31-01-2011 11:03AM

RichardAnd wrote: »

Whilst I won't argue with official figures, I would point out that during the boom, lower level PS positions were hard to keep filled. It wasn't too uncommon for (mostly young) people to start on a monday morning in the Dept of whatever, go to lunch at 12:30 and then never return to their new job. Those that did this are probably on boards.ie right now complaining about PS wages and perks.

Low level PS jobs were not considered good jobs during the boom. They aren't even good jobs now, you might get the security but entry administration public sector style is a low paying and supremely tedious job to do.

Official figures don't back up those claims.. on either count..

For resignations -

http://www.scribd.com/doc/11635058/Wage-Determination-in-the-Irish-Economy-Ruane-Lyons-QEC-2002

While most resignations were at CO level (as would be expected.. younger staff job shopping) the levels were not high.. as the PS expanded considerable over the tiger years..

"the rate of departure for the supposedly sunnier private sector pastures is less than 1.5 per cent at the peak of a private sector boom"

For jobs not being considered good -

http://www.esri.ie/UserFiles/publications/20091102110232/WP321.pdf

It will depend on your definition of what a "good" job is.. but as has been demonstrated here thousands of times, there was a pay and benefit premium in favour of the PS.. so why would you consider that not "good", when comparing like for like?

fliball123 · 31-01-2011 11:39AM

avoidspammers wrote: »

Again,this type of remark is not adding intellectual value to this thread.

There was no public outrage from the private sector at this request from PS unions at the time. Why is that pray tell?I think we all know the answer to that one. Your argument reminds me of "mummy, I lost my pocket money so I don't want the other kids to have any".

AS

Well if your putting an argument together make sure you have the right analogy.

Its like all the kid promising to give all the other kids their money and losing his and trying to tell the other kids that the cash is no longer their...

The point still not borne on any ps debater here is the simple fact that the cash is not there??

gigino · 31-01-2011 11:49AM

The cash can - and is - being borrowed. Cowen and co. have no difficulty borrowing plenty to give to themselves and the bankers - who are also effectively public service now that they are practically nationalised. Why should I suffer further pay cuts when the top people, including the central bankers and the regulator, still get paid so much ?

almighty1 · 31-01-2011 02:40PM

Jesus ******* Christ is this thread still ongoing?

Little did I know that such a stupid and sensational thread title would gain so much attention. Its dumb threads like these that makes me stay away from the Politics section of boards.

sollar · 31-01-2011 07:35PM

almighty1 wrote: »

Jesus ******* Christ is this thread still ongoing?

Jealousy is a very powerful force.

ardmacha · 31-01-2011 07:41PM

Have a read of this, then we will discuss it further if you like.

http://www.esri.ie/UserFiles/publica...JACB200937.pdf

Will people ever tire of posting out of date data in this thread or be honest enough to point out that it is out of date when linking to it.

noodler · 31-01-2011 07:53PM

Citizen_Cutback wrote: »

I suppose you were thinking of the Banks when you made this statement.

But isn't that the real problem:

The Government has to pay for the mistakes of Bonker Bankers ergo Public Employee's pay must be cut!

Not really.

If you know anything about our public finances you'd know that even minus the bank bailouts we'd be looking at a hefty deficit.

ardmacha wrote: »

Will people ever tire of posting out of date data in this thread or be honest enough to point out that it is out of date when linking to it.

When discussion benchmarking, its flaws, the fact it was paid out of all proportion or merit - why would linking to that ESRI report be considered "out of date" for the purposes of the discussion?

Did you just jump into the debate, see the year of publication and then post? Error on your part.

ardmacha · 31-01-2011 08:15PM

Did you just jump into the debate, see the year of publication and then post? Error on your part.

An effective debater. How unusual, here.

Benchmarking in general reflected an increase in private sector wages and the concept was justified. There is no doubt whatsoever that the implementation of benchmarking was entirely political.

If I was a new government I would publish the data from the first benchmarking and start from there.

noodler · 31-01-2011 09:23PM

ardmacha wrote: »

An effective debater. How unusual, here.

Benchmarking in general reflected an increase in private sector wages and the concept was justified. There is no doubt whatsoever that the implementation of benchmarking was entirely political.

If I was a new government I would publish the data from the first benchmarking and start from there.

Fine. The concept was sound in the same way the concept of a bank guarantee was sound.

Although, with some of the arguments posted in this thread - I could take the cynical view that maybe PS workers should have just left the Public Service and joined the private sector if they really felt they were getting a raw deal.

I'm not that big a **** tho.

NotInventedHere · 01-02-2011 02:19AM

Of all the threads on boards.ie. This is the one I despise the most. Truly at this stage nothing that can be added to this debate that has not been all ready said. Let it die!!!

fliball123 · 01-02-2011 10:34AM

NotInventedHere wrote: »

Of all the threads on boards.ie. This is the one I despise the most. Truly at this stage nothing that can be added to this debate that has not been all ready said. Let it die!!!

I aggree here I have argued about the clusterfcuk that is the cpa...and sure come Sept when the aggreed numbers and wage is not meet the IMF will ask the gov to cut and if it cant get redundncies ...it will cut wage accross the board. Enda Kenny has just been on Newstalk to say ...Fair play Enda...you have my vote Kid:)

Citizen_Cutback · 01-02-2011 10:36AM

noodler wrote: »

Not really.

If you know anything about our public finances you'd know that even minus the bank bailouts we'd be looking at a hefty deficit.

Let's say the current annual deficit is €20 billion as a ballpark figure.

Let's say the Banking/Property Developer crisis is going to cost us €100 billion.

Ongoing interest repayments alone to service this debt are likely to be €6 billion annually.

But then again you are probably informed by Brian Lenihan when he said on BBC Newsnight in an interview with Jeremy Paxman that the Banks were not the problem.

ardmacha · 01-02-2011 10:53AM

it will cut wage accross the board.

This illustrates the problem here. Many sectors of the PS will make improvements, probably those that are already relatively efficient. But you advocate that as long as someone somewhere does not then the whole lot should be cut, illustrating that efficiency is not your objective, but rather a simple anti-PS prejudice.

fliball123 · 01-02-2011 11:04AM

ardmacha wrote: »

This illustrates the problem here. Many sectors of the PS will make improvements, probably those that are already relatively efficient. But you advocate that as long as someone somewhere does not then the whole lot should be cut, illustrating that efficiency is not your objective, but rather a simple anti-PS prejudice.

Ehh no did I say that I was just reiterating what Enda Kenny said. I do want the P.S to be cut..but done so in a way that does not impact as much on those at the lower end of the pay scale.

My Objective is to have less of my tax taken in the next budget and the only way this can happen if other areas are cut. simple.

The last time we tried to tax the fcuk out of the country was in the late 70s it was over a 12 year period where the economy stagnated we where at a 15% unemployment and our borrowing was at over 7% from the Germans..and we tried to tax and it took 12 years until someone took a chainsaw to public spending which sprung the Tiger. Does this situation sound familiar it should we are at this point again and hopefully it doesnt take another 12 years to understand that you cannot tax the fcuk out of the country in order to get out of a recession

avoidspammers · 01-02-2011 11:09AM

noodler wrote: »

Wow.

EDIT:

Have a read of this, then we will discuss it further if you like.

http://www.esri.ie/UserFiles/publications/20090921103408/JACB200937.pdf

Hey, when it suits you, you link to out of date data. This time, I suggest you go back further...maybe by about 7 years?

(Link brings you to page where you may choose to read the report - I don't generally like to link directly to pdf's).

http://www.finance.gov.ie/viewdoc.asp?DocID=500

This document is a background to the benchmarking initiative. While I do agree, it was politically motivated (to a certain extent), the reasoning behind it was grounded in well informed quantitative data - see graphs on p.41 (Figure 4.2 in particular).

P339

What does the above mean exactly??

A.S.

ardmacha · 01-02-2011 11:09AM

but done so in a way that does not impact as much on those at the lower end of the pay scale.

Perhaps you'd care to justify this approach given that the ESRI report cited by Noodler showed that any excess payments over private rates were highest at low levels and were low to non existent at higher levels? Are you a socialist?

Welease · 01-02-2011 11:57AM

avoidspammers wrote: »

Hey, when it suits you, you link to out of date data. This time, I suggest you go back further...maybe by about 7 years?

(Link brings you to page where you may choose to read the report - I don't generally like to link directly to pdf's).

http://www.finance.gov.ie/viewdoc.asp?DocID=500

This document is a background to the benchmarking initiative. While I do agree, it was politically motivated (to a certain extent), the reasoning behind it was grounded in well informed quantitative data - see graphs on p.41 (Figure 4.2 in particular).

What does the above mean exactly??

A.S.

figures 4.1 and 4.2 have absolutely nothing to do with a comparison of wages between public and private sector.. 4.2 in particular just shows that PS pensions and pay bill went down relative to GDP which could be expected in a booming economy, it in no way relates to a comparison of private sector wages.. In fact the PSBB didn't produce any data in their reports to demonstrate a gap between PS and PrS sector wages.

If you are interested in a somewhat more "independent" (and no one is truely independant), then it might be worth reading the report Frances Ruane & Ronan Lyons did on benchmarking..
http://www.scribd.com/doc/11635058/Wage-Determination-in-the-Irish-Economy-Ruane-Lyons-QEC-2002

fliball123 · 01-02-2011 11:58AM

ardmacha wrote: »

Perhaps you'd care to justify this approach given that the ESRI report cited by Noodler showed that any excess payments over private rates were highest at low levels and were low to non existent at higher levels? Are you a socialist?

Listen Ardmacha its my opinion which I am entitled to. As I say and I stick by it, I would cut more from the top earners I have gone through in detail how to do it. Something simular to the way the new USC tax is.

Up to a certain wage say 20k say 2% cut and then a 2% per every 20k earned above this in a stagered way...Not a socialist a realist...there are too many high earners in the public sector

ardmacha · 01-02-2011 12:41PM

Listen Ardmacha its my opinion which I am entitled to.

Entitled to your opinion you may be, but if you share it on this forum then people will disagree. My point is that there are two bases for debate about PS pay. One is belief that they are inefficient or overpaid relative to private sector norms and that efficient government requires attention to improving things, this view has merit but is generally undermined by sweeping generalisations and sloppy data. The second perspective is a political one, shared by yourself and Bertie Aherne, is that PS pay has nothing to do with productivity or efficiency but is a matter of what you can get away with. I despise the latter view, the PS should be a case of people doing the job properly and getting the going rate for it.

fliball123 · 01-02-2011 12:53PM

ardmacha wrote: »

Entitled to your opinion you may be, but if you share it on this forum then people will disagree. My point is that there are two bases for debate about PS pay. One is belief that they are inefficient or overpaid relative to private sector norms and that efficient government requires attention to improving things, this view has merit but is generally undermined by sweeping generalisations and sloppy data. The second perspective is a political one, shared by yourself and Bertie Aherne, is that PS pay has nothing to do with productivity or efficiency but is a matter of what you can get away with. I despise the latter view, the PS should be a case of people doing the job properly and getting the going rate for it.

So the fact that we are overspending by nearly 20billion a year has nothing what so ever got to do with it??? Really?? Regardless of if they are overpaid or not is no longer the growing concern it is the fact tha money is not there and I dont believe it is fair to keep taxing the fcuk out of people to keep paying this overinflated bill

tweedledee · 01-02-2011 01:09PM

It depends on which department you work in and which grade you are at.The frontline staff,nurses,police,some teachers,prison staff,fire dept etc are NOT highly paid.Its the heavily bloated middle/senior management in HSE,Social Welfare,government office staff etc are creaming it bigtime.There are managers in HSE getting 70k to 120k a year to do NOTHING.They have no actual job description.the Dept of Finance has,would you believe it 745 staff,SEVEN HUNDRED and FORTY FIVE?????????????????????Thats where the problem is."to many chiefs and not enough indians" as the saying goes.:mad:

fliball123 · 01-02-2011 01:29PM

tweedledee wrote: »

It depends on which department you work in and which grade you are at.The frontline staff,nurses,police,some teachers,prison staff,fire dept etc are NOT highly paid.Its the heavily bloated middle/senior management in HSE,Social Welfare,government office staff etc are creaming it bigtime.There are managers in HSE getting 70k to 120k a year to do NOTHING.They have no actual job description.the Dept of Finance has,would you believe it 745 staff,SEVEN HUNDRED and FORTY FIVE?????????????????????Thats where the problem is."to many chiefs and not enough indians" as the saying goes.:mad:

I would say some fronline workers are overpaid but I do aggree that the back end office crap and duplication needs to be looked at...Look to all P.S I am not trying to get at anyone but as I say the money is no longer there...I personally would love the p.s to remain on the same wage as this would mean the country had the money and was in good shape but those are the breaks and even without the banking clusterfcuk we would still be in the sh1ts with the over borrowing for our spending...

tweedledee · 01-02-2011 01:38PM

Sorry Fliball but it was the blanket guarantee to the banks that started the snowball rolling,bigtime.The banks have cost the taxpayer and the cash reserves dearly.More than 150 BILLION from EU already for the banks and endless billions from the Irish taxpayers,pension reserve funds and Sovereign funds too.Most of the top financial advisors in the world have stated it was a grave mistake to support inept banks with taxpayers money.Bailing out the banks has crippled growth in Ireland.

OMD · 01-02-2011 01:43PM

tweedledee wrote: »

It depends on which department you work in and which grade you are at.The frontline staff,nurses,police,some teachers,prison staff,fire dept etc are NOT highly paid..:mad:

How do you work that out. In my view they are massively overpaid (well all except fire service. I don't know their rates of pay). On what basis do you believe thay are not highly paid.

tweedledee · 01-02-2011 01:59PM

Example,Guard with less than 5 years on the line,before tax is approx 25k!!Most subsidies are gone and no overtime.Do the maths.Nurses very similar.Just check their websites or speak to peole in the job.I saw,only two days ago a friends payslip for January(Garda,with 10+ years service) and I was shocked.After tax he earned just over the minimum wage.Honest to God.The government wants you to believe that ALL Public Sector workers are making millions.They know that they have to make cuts to the Sector so their spin doctors start an arguement in the press.They tar everybody with the same brush so average Joe on the street wants action,wants cutbacks.FF are NO way going to get rid of their suit wearing,cash sponges in the offices and backrooms.these people were given non descript jobs by the politicians in power over the last few years.As the private sector wants blood the government slash n burn everybody thats an easy target,FRONTLINE employees.Gardai,Nurses,Doctors,teachers,Fire brigade,Social welfare front office,prison officers etc etc.The masses are happy with the cuts but its the masses that will actually suffer in the longterm.FF always hit the weakest link.Budget for example,the wealthy got more money but the working/middle classes took the hit.

OMD · 01-02-2011 02:10PM

tweedledee wrote: »

Example,Guard with less than 5 years on the line,before tax is approx 25k!!Most subsidies are gone and no overtime.Do the maths.Nurses very similar.Just check their websites or speak to peole in the job.I saw,only two days ago a friends payslip for January(Garda,with 10+ years service) and I was shocked.After tax he earned just over the minimum wage.Honest to God.The government wants you to believe that ALL Public Sector workers are making millions.They know that they have to make cuts to the Sector so their spin doctors start an arguement in the press.They tar everybody with the same brush so average Joe on the street wants action,wants cutbacks.FF are NO way going to get rid of their suit wearing,cash sponges in the offices and backrooms.these people were given non descript jobs by the politicians in power over the last few years.As the private sector wants blood the government slash n burn everybody thats an easy target,FRONTLINE employees.Gardai,Nurses,Doctors,teachers,Fire brigade,Social welfare front office,prison officers etc etc.The masses are happy with the cuts but its the masses that will actually suffer in the longterm.FF always hit the weakest link.Budget for example,the wealthy got more money but the working/middle classes took the hit.

Don't listen to the people themselves. They are giving you their after tax income. The basic pay for a garda after 5 years is €40,163 (not 25k you claim). This is before all allowances. They also get extra payments for working nights, weekends and bank holidays. Not over time just extra pay for working anti-social hours.
http://www.gra.cc/payscales.shtml

A staff nurse 5 years qualified gets a similar basic pay of €36,000. This is also greatly increased by allowances and anti-social hours payments.
http://www.inmo.ie/INMOPage_9_35.aspx

MagicSean · 01-02-2011 03:53PM

OMD wrote: »

Don't listen to the people themselves. They are giving you their after tax income. The basic pay for a garda after 5 years is €40,163 (not 25k you claim). This is before all allowances. They also get extra payments for working nights, weekends and bank holidays. Not over time just extra pay for working anti-social hours.
http://www.gra.cc/payscales.shtml

A staff nurse 5 years qualified gets a similar basic pay of €36,000. This is also greatly increased by allowances and anti-social hours payments.
http://www.inmo.ie/INMOPage_9_35.aspx

The problem with looking at basic pay is that Gardaí pay a number of taxes which private sector don't. There are four seperate pension deductions alone. Also, I know very few jobs that do not pay extra for those who work nights and Sundays so i don't see how that is relevant.

I see you stopped at five years. The reason that pay goes up so much in that time is that that is when all the learning and training is done. You'll notice that over the next 25 years the pay only goes up anothr €8000 in total.

OMD · 01-02-2011 04:04PM

k_mac wrote: »

The problem with looking at basic pay is that Gardaí pay a number of taxes which private sector don't. There are four seperate pension deductions alone. Also, I know very few jobs that do not pay extra for those who work nights and Sundays so i don't see how that is relevant.

I see you stopped at five years. The reason that pay goes up so much in that time is that that is when all the learning and training is done. You'll notice that over the next 25 years the pay only goes up anothr €8000 in total.

Gardai do not pay taxes that the private sector do not. Pension payments are not a tax. Private sector workers have to pay far more in pension contributions than gardai. Gardai also get many allowances that I did not include here.

I quoted 5 years because that was the time frame I was responding to in the previous post. The other poster claimed a Garda after 5 years only earns 25k before tax. I was correcting them.

You will notice that over the next 25 years if the pay freeze continues for the entire 25 years then the Garda will still get an €8000 pay rise. Obviously the pay freeze will not continue for 25 years so the Garda pay will rise substantially more than €8000

fliball123 · 01-02-2011 05:03PM

tweedledee wrote: »

Sorry Fliball but it was the blanket guarantee to the banks that started the snowball rolling,bigtime.The banks have cost the taxpayer and the cash reserves dearly.More than 150 BILLION from EU already for the banks and endless billions from the Irish taxpayers,pension reserve funds and Sovereign funds too.Most of the top financial advisors in the world have stated it was a grave mistake to support inept banks with taxpayers money.Bailing out the banks has crippled growth in Ireland.

Sorry but it has been both the debt already incurred for public spending is also the problem ..not sure what the figure is but if we are borrowing 20 odd billion every year to pay the bills and I believe this goes back to 2006/7 so how much is that you do the math there...Even if the banks were hunky dory the spend would have been an issue at mayb 2015 the bank collapse just brought it into focus

Its official : public sector pay per hour is 49% higher than private sector

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