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Its official : public sector pay per hour is 49% higher than private sector

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Comments

  • #1142
    ardmacha
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,476 ✭✭✭ardmacha


    Some people do indeed talk about the "private sector" as though it is a lumpen mass of Seanie Fitzpatricks, this is of course wrong. But so is referring to everyone in the public sector as if they are workshy individuals who could not earn just as much in the private sector. The situation is more complex in both cases.


  • #1143
    noodler
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,508 ✭✭✭✭noodler


    gigino wrote: »
    Its tough on most private sector workers but why did they not get public service jobs ? Most were not good enough. Thats why we deserve higher pay , more time off etc, and we should not apologise for it. We should go on strike if the government cuts our wages again. Many of us have commitments like additional properties / mortgages etc we cannot get rid of - yet the cost of these, payable to the private sector, is not reduced. Over 100,000 Irish people have have foreign ( not Irish ) holiday homes alone - yet most will not admit publically to it, for fear of jealousy, appearing foolish etc. Yet the costs have to be paid. No more pay cuts. Lots of people are down hundreds of euro per week.

    You have got to be a wind-up mechant.
    Matt Bauer wrote: »
    Do I detect a hint of sarcasm? ;)

    Ahhh..I sure hope so

    The_Thing wrote: »
    Guys it simple - I don't give a fcuk about the private sector and the problems they've created for themselves. As I've stated before the only loan I ever have had was one for £4,000 to buy a car. I never got into debt because I was afraid of losing the farm I had inherited to some fat cat in a suit if I couldn't repay the loan. I will not be made a scapegoat for the excesses of others. We have had two pay cuts already. If my salary is cut further I will do less work. I will put my feet up every afternoon and read the Farmers Journal.

    You had better start caring - many public sector workers were being paid too much too begin with. You had also better start caring because I don't want my tax money wasted on an inflated public service. You had better start caring because the private sector pays your wages. You had beter stop referring to the "excesses" of the private sector when a handful of bankers would be a more apt phrase.

    Are you actually a farmer? Have you ever recieved grants or subsidies from the Government or EU?


  • #1144
    Treehouse72
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,003 ✭✭✭Treehouse72


    ardmacha wrote: »
    This is of course wrong. But so is referring to everyone in the public sector as if they are workshy individuals who could not earn just as much in the private sector. The situation is more complex in both cases.


    Please don't quote my post and then talk about an allegation that I know is made, but which I emphatically didn't make.


  • #1145
    ardmacha
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,476 ✭✭✭ardmacha


    Please don't quote my post and then talk about an allegation that I know is made, but which I emphatically didn't make.

    OK, I've removed the quotation to your post.


  • #1146
    avoidspammers
    Closed Accounts Posts: 38 ✭avoidspammers


    Treehouse72 wrote: »
    You talk about the "private sector" as though it is a lumpen mass of Seanie Fitzpatricks.

    That is your interpretation of how the PS see the private sector. Having said that, there are plenty of "Seanie Fitzpatricks" mingled in there, let's not forget that. Let's not portray the private sector in its entirety as a group of victims.

    Where might I pick up one of those "high horses" that seem to be going free for anti-PS posters on this forum??

    Finally, you low paid PS workers need to cut the rest loose.

    That is a ridiculous pretentious remark. You know that is not a possibility, and if you don't, you really are not knowledgeable enough to make any comments re the PS.


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  • #1147
    noodler
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,508 ✭✭✭✭noodler


    avoidspammers wrote: »
    That is your interpretation of how the PS see the private sector. Having said that, there are plenty of "Seanie Fitzpatricks" mingled in there, let's not forget that. Let's not portray the private sector in its entirety as a group of victims.

    Where might I pick up one of those "high horses" that seem to be going free for anti-PS posters on this forum??




    That is a ridiculous pretentious remark. You know that is not a possibility, and if you don't, you really are not knowledgeable enough to make any comments re the PS.


    Everything you say seems to revolve around putting anyone who disagrees with you into a category.

    There is nothing "anti-PS" about wanting to pay a sustainable amount to the country's public sector.

    It does your "arguments" no good to continually refer to those you disagree with as anti-PS in a bid to avoid the issues.


  • #1148
    Treehouse72
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,003 ✭✭✭Treehouse72


    avoidspammers wrote: »
    That is your interpretation of how the PS see the private sector. Having said that, there are plenty of "Seanie Fitzpatricks" mingled in there, let's not forget that. Let's not portray the private sector in its entirety as a group of victims.

    Where might I pick up one of those "high horses" that seem to be going free for anti-PS posters on this forum??




    That is a ridiculous pretentious remark. You know that is not a possibility, and if you don't, you really are not knowledgeable enough to make any comments re the PS.


    I have never seen a sectional interest debate in such bad faith or with so little objectivity as in this thread.

    I'll take my leave of this thread now cause it's just driving me nuts and there's no real debate between the two sides going on.


  • #1149
    avoidspammers
    Closed Accounts Posts: 38 ✭avoidspammers


    Treehouse72 wrote: »
    I have never seen a sectional interest debate in such bad faith or with so little objectivity as in this thread.

    I'll take my leave of this thread now cause it's just driving me nuts and there's no real debate between the two sides going on.

    Correct.


  • #1150
    sollar
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,007 ✭✭✭sollar


    Public servants should just be honest - they do not want to give up what they have and they aren't to bothered about being selfless in the countries interest when they see so many others don't give a damn (Politicians, NAMA Developer, Bankers and other elites).


  • #1151
    Head The Wall
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,892 ✭✭✭Head The Wall


    sollar wrote: »
    Public servants should just be honest - they do not want to give up what they have and they aren't to bothered about being selfless in the countries interest when they see so many others don't give a damn (Politicians, NAMA Developer, Bankers and other elites).

    Yes but that's 300,000 people Vs 1-2,000 people.


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  • #1152
    MagicSean
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,897 ✭✭✭MagicSean


    sollar wrote: »
    Public servants should just be honest - they do not want to give up what they have and they aren't to bothered about being selfless in the countries interest when they see so many others don't give a damn (Politicians, NAMA Developer, Bankers and other elites).

    I've given up plenty already. And I don't want to give up anymore until I know it's going somewhere useful. Why should I lose another 10% just so it can be given to some scrounger who doesn't feel like working or who got knocked up by a stranger? Why should my sacrifice go to some idiot in a bank who needs a massive salary? The problem here is the tax system in Ireland. It should be hypothicated. If I am going to be given another 10% pay cut I want to know that money is going to hospitals or schools or roads or even to paying off out debt.


  • #1153
    sollar
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,007 ✭✭✭sollar


    Head The Wall wrote: »
    Yes but that's 300,000 people Vs 1-2,000 people.

    Its the principal. If the leaders and elites of our society aren't bothered about sacrifice how do they reasonably expect the public servants to offer up more. The example given by the likes of harney, dempsey, ahern etc was terrible. Its everywhere though... bankers bonuses paid on the sly, nama developers conspiring to profiteer now from their failed empires. Agreeing to pay all this private banking dept and settling for a 5.8% interest rate. Where is the motivation for ordinary public servants to sacrifice more - protect what they have i say everyone else is doing it (if they can).
    k_mac wrote: »
    I've given up plenty already. And I don't want to give up anymore until I know it's going somewhere useful. Why should I lose another 10% just so it can be given to some scrounger who doesn't feel like working or who got knocked up by a stranger? Why should my sacrifice go to some idiot in a bank who needs a massive salary? The problem here is the tax system in Ireland. It should be hypothicated. If I am going to be given another 10% pay cut I want to know that money is going to hospitals or schools or roads or even to paying off out debt.

    I agree with you.


  • #1154
    gigino
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,350 ✭✭✭gigino


    sollar wrote: »
    Its the principal. If the leaders and elites of our society aren't bothered about sacrifice how do they reasonably expect the public servants to offer up more.

    You have got a point there. Why should the public service architect, vet, receptionist or cleaner NOT be paid 49% more per hour than the private sector architect, vet, receptionist or cleaner, when the leaders and elites of our society, our bosses in government, are not too bothered about sacrifice ? We can always go on strike anyway. We did not make the crises.


  • #1155
    RichardAnd
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,121 ✭✭✭RichardAnd


    This thread is like a group of monkeys fighting over a banana. Most people that are posting here seem to be under the impressing that an average figure of 49% means that every public servant is automatically earning 49% more than someone in a similar position outside the PS. Further, there seems tobe a belief that inflated salaries can only exist inside the PS, well I know many people in private industry who get paid way too much for what they do.

    This thread illustrates perfectly the reason why Irish people are so meek.


  • #1156
    danbohan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,914 ✭✭✭danbohan


    RichardAnd wrote: »
    This thread is like a group of monkeys fighting over a banana. Most people that are posting here seem to be under the impressing that an average figure of 49% means that every public servant is automatically earning 49% more than someone in a similar position outside the PS. Further, there seems tobe a belief that inflated salaries can only exist inside the PS, well I know many people in private industry who get paid way too much for what they do.

    This thread illustrates perfectly the reason why Irish people are so meek.

    what really illustrates why irish people are so meek is that they allowed a corrupt and discredited government enter into a agreement to protect a grossly overpaid overstaffed and inefficient public service . hopefully fine gael in power will do the necessary


  • #1157
    noodler
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,508 ✭✭✭✭noodler


    RichardAnd wrote: »
    This thread is like a group of monkeys fighting over a banana. Most people that are posting here seem to be under the impressing that an average figure of 49% means that every public servant is automatically earning 49% more than someone in a similar position outside the PS. Further, there seems tobe a belief that inflated salaries can only exist inside the PS, well I know many people in private industry who get paid way too much for what they do.

    This thread illustrates perfectly the reason why Irish people are so meek.

    See thats total BS. Nobody here is under the impression that every single public sector is paid 49% more than an equivalent in the private sector.

    Forget about the Private sector - thats none of your concern. Private businesses live and die by what they make in revenue - whatever they want to do with it - good luck to them - they won't last long paying people far more than the going rate for less than productive efforts.

    Government revenues are a different thing altogether.


  • #1158
    noodler
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,508 ✭✭✭✭noodler


    avoidspammers wrote: »
    If the private sector is none of anybody's concern, why is the actual title of this thread a direct reference to Private Sector earnings? Please be sensible.

    AS

    Hey, don't make me report your post for abusing the poster rather then the post.....like you did yesterday for example.


    What someone gets paid in a private sector company really isn't anybody's concern but the company in question. Benchmarking?

    A Private compnay will pay what it can afford and will only pay what it makes sense to pay.

    The Government has to pay within its means.

    Public Sector workers complaining about private sector companies paying their employees too much is not really relevant - if the company can't afford it, it will go bust.


  • #1159
    avoidspammers
    Closed Accounts Posts: 38 ✭avoidspammers


    Note:

    This post should replace the one above.

    noodler wrote: »
    Forget about the Private sector - thats none of your concern.

    Amazing arrogance. If the private sector is none of anybody's concern, why is the actual title of this thread a direct reference to Private Sector earnings?
    they won't last long paying people far more than the going rate for less than productive efforts.

    You are obviously referring to the PS again here.
    Aren't you promoting the very notion you have just denied in your post above?

    Please be sensible in your remarks at the very least.

    A.S.


  • #1160
    noodler
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,508 ✭✭✭✭noodler


    avoidspammers wrote: »
    Amazing arrogance. If the private sector is none of anybody's concern, why is the actual title of this thread a direct reference to Private Sector earnings?



    You are obviously referring to the PS again here.
    Aren't you promoting the very notion you have just denied in your post above?

    Please be sensible in your remarks at the very least.

    A.S.


    Yeah yeah, addressed it all above.

    Actually, unless you say something really misleading again in this thread I am just going to ingore you for twisting people's words.

    You are not worth the effort.


  • #1161
    avoidspammers
    Closed Accounts Posts: 38 ✭avoidspammers


    noodler wrote: »
    Hey, don't make me report your post for abusing the poster rather then the post.

    I take your point on board.
    noodler wrote: »
    Yeah yeah, addressed it all above.

    Actually, unless you say something really misleading again in this thread I am just going to ingore you for twisting people's words.

    You are not worth the effort.

    Eh?? Isn't this an example of what you are against on this forum?

    Apologies to the rest of you for taking this thread off topic but I feel I must defend my good name.

    A.S.


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  • #1162
    gigino
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,350 ✭✭✭gigino


    avoidspammers wrote: »
    If the private sector is none of anybody's concern, why is the actual title of this thread a direct reference to Private Sector earnings?

    Because of jealousy coming from the private sector. They are jealous about pay, pensions, security, conditions. The average private sector architect, vet, receptionist or cleaner more often than not knows a public sector sector architect, vet, receptionist or cleaner, as the case may be. Why did they not apply for jobs in the public service during the boom. They made their bed...let them lie in it. A public servant who took out mortgages ( eg on a principal residence and a buy to let or holiday home ) during the boom has to honour those loans. The private sector financial institutions will not cut those loans but yet some want public sector pay cut.


  • #1163
    Count Dooku
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,419 ✭✭✭Count Dooku


    gigino wrote: »
    Why did they not apply for jobs in the public service during the boom.
    because everybody wanted to work in public sector and it was not enough positions for everyone
    http://www.publicjobs.ie/publicjobs/downloads/an_report2004.pdf
    Civil Service Commission
    • Clerical 1,646 568
    • Administrative 0 538
    http://www.publicjobs.ie/publicjobs/downloads/an_report2005.pdf
    Civil Service
    • Clerical (including term time) 22,802 1,910
    • Administrative 19,584 395
    http://www.publicjobs.ie/publicjobs/downloads/an_report2006.pdf
    Civil Service
    • Clerical (including term time) 21,395 2,091
    • Administrative 14,307 349


  • #1164
    noodler
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,508 ✭✭✭✭noodler


    gigino wrote: »
    Because of jealousy coming from the private sector. They are jealous about pay, pensions, security, conditions. The average private sector architect, vet, receptionist or cleaner more often than not knows a public sector sector architect, vet, receptionist or cleaner, as the case may be. Why did they not apply for jobs in the public service during the boom. They made their bed...let them lie in it. A public servant who took out mortgages ( eg on a principal residence and a buy to let or holiday home ) during the boom has to honour those loans. The private sector financial institutions will not cut those loans but yet some want public sector pay cut.

    You just have to laugh.

    Lets turn this on its head - lots of PS workers were jealous of the Private Sector and so convinced the Government to introduce benchmarking.


  • #1165
    gigino
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,350 ✭✭✭gigino


    The jealousy and bitterness and begrudgery is coming from the private sector, not coming from the public sector. Lets look at the reality. Not too many public sector architects want to be private sector these days. Not too many department of Agriculture vets want to be private sector vets these days. Not too many public sector receptionists or cleaners want to be private sector these days. Who cares about the private sector, they had it good for long enough. They can emigrate or change careers if they want.


  • #1166
    Red Actor
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 72 ✭✭Red Actor


    danbohan wrote: »
    what really illustrates why irish people are so meek is that they allowed a corrupt and discredited government enter into a agreement to protect a grossly overpaid overstaffed and inefficient public service . hopefully fine gael in power will do the necessary
    PJ Sheehan (?) is not running for re-election so will be unable to make the start he had promised to get a garda fired...

    I had a look at the FG site (i'm not politically aligned and try to infrom myself) and it does mention cutting Public Sector jobs. I would like to see where they propose the axe to fall as it is ease to pick a figure (30,000) in this case but I have not seen where this will happen - teachers, nurses, garda, special needs, home help.


  • #1167
    avoidspammers
    Closed Accounts Posts: 38 ✭avoidspammers


    noodler wrote: »
    You just have to laugh.
    Again,this type of remark is not adding intellectual value to this thread.
    Lets turn this on its head - lots of PS workers were jealous of the Private Sector and so convinced the Government to introduce benchmarking.
    There was no public outrage from the private sector at this request from PS unions at the time. Why is that pray tell?I think we all know the answer to that one. Your argument reminds me of "mummy, I lost my pocket money so I don't want the other kids to have any".

    AS


  • #1168
    noodler
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,508 ✭✭✭✭noodler


    gigino wrote: »
    The jealousy and bitterness and begrudgery is coming from the private sector, not coming from the public sector. Lets look at the reality. Not too many public sector architects want to be private sector these days. Not too many department of Agriculture vets want to be private sector vets these days. Not too many public sector receptionists or cleaners want to be private sector these days. Who cares about the private sector, they had it good for long enough. They can emigrate or change careers if they want.

    Hah.

    Wow, I don't even know where to begin with the stuff you post.
    avoidspammers wrote: »

    There was no public outrage from the private sector at this request from PS unions at the time. Why is that pray tell?I think we all know the answer to that one. Your argument reminds me of "mummy, I lost my pocket money so I don't want the other kids to have any".

    AS

    There was plenty of people that said benchmarking was a terrible idea.

    What exactly is your point here? The money was given without a corresponding rise in productivity and way out of sync with inflation - now the Government's revenues have collapsed and you feel anybody who wants the bill slashed further is some sort of jealous begrudger?

    Nice try.


  • #1169
    avoidspammers
    Closed Accounts Posts: 38 ✭avoidspammers


    noodler wrote: »

    The money was given without a corresponding rise in productivity and way out of sync with inflation.
    Untrue on both points. Provide sources for your outrageous ill conceived remarks.This is typical of your type: no substance.


  • #1170
    noodler
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,508 ✭✭✭✭noodler


    avoidspammers wrote: »
    Untrue on both points. Provide sources for your outrageous ill conceived remarks.This is typical of your type: no substance.

    Wow.

    EDIT:

    Have a read of this, then we will discuss it further if you like.

    http://www.esri.ie/UserFiles/publications/20090921103408/JACB200937.pdf

    P339


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  • #1171
    RichardAnd
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,121 ✭✭✭RichardAnd


    Count Dooku wrote: »
    because everybody wanted to work in public sector and it was not enough positions for everyone
    http://www.publicjobs.ie/publicjobs/downloads/an_report2004.pdf

    http://www.publicjobs.ie/publicjobs/downloads/an_report2005.pdf

    http://www.publicjobs.ie/publicjobs/downloads/an_report2006.pdf



    Whilst I won't argue with official figures, I would point out that during the boom, lower level PS positions were hard to keep filled. It wasn't too uncommon for (mostly young) people to start on a monday morning in the Dept of whatever, go to lunch at 12:30 and then never return to their new job. Those that did this are probably on boards.ie right now complaining about PS wages and perks.

    Low level PS jobs were not considered good jobs during the boom. They aren't even good jobs now, you might get the security but entry administration public sector style is a low paying and supremely tedious job to do.


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