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Landis admits doping, points finger at LA - Please read Mod Warning post 1

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Comments

  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,277 Mod ✭✭✭✭Chips Lovell


    macken04 wrote: »
    If he did dope it would be a disaster for cycling, fans and all the poor cancer patients who are invested in livestrong. I hope for their sake its not true

    I disagree. I think anyone involved in cycling or a fan of cycling who didn't have an idea about what's been going on has been quite naive. If another big name in the sport were to go down, it would hardly be surprising.


  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,277 Mod ✭✭✭✭Chips Lovell


    When Italian police and customs officials raided the home of longtime Armstrong teammate Yarolslav Popovych last November, they discovered documents and PEDs as well as texts and e-mails linking Armstrong's team to controversial Italian physician Michele Ferrari as recently as 2009, though Armstrong had said he cut ties with Ferrari in 2004.

    Looks like Popo may be in trouble too.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 11,672 Mod ✭✭✭✭RobFowl


    Sports Illustrated is huge in the States and they wouldn't publish this unless they had a rock solid base.

    It really is game over for LA now.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,538 ✭✭✭nak


    I have to say I find some of that hard to believe. Hem Assist was binned as it was shown to have no significant effect in the clinical trials, was Armstrong supposed to have been part of the trials that were conducted in A&E departments?

    If they found all that in Popo's house why is he still racing? He must be pretty stupid if he knew the team was being investigated and left all that stuff in his house.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,981 ✭✭✭Diarmuid


    RobFowl wrote: »
    It really is game over for LA now.

    Oh no it's not! :rolleyes:


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 114 ✭✭spokeydokey


    Full article

    http://media.crikey.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/ArmstrongThe-Case-Against-LASI-Jan-2011.pdf


    Edit, the article is on the Sports Illustrated website now. Easier to read than the pdf format above.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 72 ✭✭DeadMan1




  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,277 Mod ✭✭✭✭Chips Lovell


    nak wrote: »
    I have to say I find some of that hard to believe. Hem Assist was binned as it was shown to have no significant effect in the clinical trials, was Armstrong supposed to have been part of the trials that were conducted in A&E departments?

    They're alleging he got his hands on the drug outside the clinical trials.
    nak wrote: »
    If they found all that in Popo's house why is he still racing? He must be pretty stupid if he knew the team was being investigated and left all that stuff in his house.

    He isn't racing at the moment. His house was raided in November, in the off season and he hasn't raced yet this season. It was by the Italian police too, which means its a criminal rather than sporting allegation. If what Sports Illustrated is saying is correct, I'm guessing the authorities may move to have him suspended once the European season started. Then again, there is precedent for riders carrying on while still under police investigation, such as Petacchi in last year's Tour.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 27,833 ✭✭✭✭ThisRegard


    I haven't seen it mentioned on this thread or seen it in another, but hear last night that Landis is retiring from cycling as he can't get a team ride this year, the Times has a small paragraph
    CYCLING: Floyd Landis has announced his retirement from cycling after failing to find a new team. The 35-year-old American won the Tour de France with Team Phonak in 2006, but was later stripped of the title after testing positive for a banned substance.

    Landis confessed last year he had used performance enhancing drugs throughout his career, at the same time alleging doping was rife in his former team, US Postal Services – the team of seven-time Tour winner Lance Armstrong.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 132 ✭✭tfrancer


    Full article

    http://media.crikey.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/ArmstrongThe-Case-Against-LASI-Jan-2011.pdf


    Edit, the article is on the Sports Illustrated website now. Easier to read than the pdf format above.

    Excellent article..................difficult to figure out who are the good guys and who are the bad guys...............


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  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,277 Mod ✭✭✭✭Chips Lovell


    Good piece in the Boulder Report about HemAssist and similar drugs:
    All of that makes HBOCs, on paper, anyway, far more efficient at delivering oxygen to muscles than whole blood.

    It turns out they’re likely not. Dr. Michael Ashenden, founder of the Science and Industry Against Blood Doping consortium and member of the UCI bio-passport panel, told me two years ago that HBOCs never delivered the kind of oxygen-transport capacity they seemed to offer. As a result of that and their scarcity, they fell out of favor compared to less exotic regimens like blood doping and micro-dosing EPO.

    But in the late 90s and early 2000s, only their advertised abilities were known. So it’s no surprise athletes wanted to get their hands on them. And Armstrong isn’t the first to have his name linked to HBOCs. When Italian anti-drug police raided the 2001 Giro d’Italia, star rider Dario Frigo was found to have stocks of HemAssist in his parents’ camper van.

    Later, authorities discovered that Frigo had actually been duped: the IV bags contained nothing more than saline solution. Frigo’s clear intent was to dope but, because he never actually purchased the real drug, no one ever chased down the supply pipeline.

    Similarly, Michael Rasmussen, who was accused of trying to dupe an acquaintance, Whit Richards, into unwittingly smuggling IV bags of HemoPure into Europe in 2002, was never discovered in his effort. Richards dumped the stuff in a sink drain and kept the story relatively quiet until 2006, so no one ever traced his attempts.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,833 ✭✭✭niceonetom


    More on HemAssist here and here.

    The use of HemAssist might be significant even if it had no actual performance enhancing properties. Its use, actually even its possession would have been a federal crime and therefore subject to investigation by the FDA. Add that to the various flavours of fraud that LA could possibly be charged with and things look bleak for him.

    "Why, goes one of Fabiani’s (an Armstrong spokesman) best lines, is the FDA of all people interested in some European bike races from a decade ago?

    Well, the response now goes, because one of the most famous sportsmen of the last half-century stands accused of buying stocks of a tightly controlled investigational drug – manufactured by an American pharmaceutical company and intended for use only in clinical trial settings under the regulation of the FDA or its European counterparts and which is illegal to use for any other purpose, or even for a private citizen to possess, much less transport internationally – to pull off a monumental sporting fraud.

    I think that subject is well within the FDA’s investigatory wheelhouse. And I eagerly await Fabiani and Armstrong’s explanation for why it’s not."


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,010 ✭✭✭velo.2010


    Just in from an easy 3 hour cycle a-Hem, a-Hem.;)

    So can we say without doubt that Jan Ullrich WAS the better cyclist!
    OK we know he doped, Pevenage admitted to it last year, but there is surely no way he was up to the same kind of sh!t as Armstrong. I'm happy to stand corrected on that.

    Now I understand why so many commentators were always adament Ullrich was stronger than Armstrong. They knew....they knew it wasn't possible for a guy who couldn't previously climb that well to suddenly put 6 or 7 minutes into a rider like Ullrich. What a desperate git Armstrong must have been to go to that length to win.

    Last year we got an idea perhaps just how he would have performed without the pharmatilogical back-up he had in previous years. He had a strong Prologue, not surprising as he has always been good in that disipline but he looked distinctly average in the mountains not-withstanding his earlier crashes.

    Re. the Livestrong foundation. It means a lot to so many people and obviously should survive in some form to continue the services it provides. Maybe people will be less inclined to heap so much praise on Armstrong after this saga finally comes to an end.


  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,277 Mod ✭✭✭✭Chips Lovell


    I don't think we can draw that conclusion. If what's been alleged is correct then both were involved in sophisticated doping rings. It wasn't like Operation Puerto uncovered some two bit operation. Some of the biggest names in the sport were involved and, it's believed, even more names escaped scot free.

    Certainly Ullrich was regarded has having a huge natural talent. But he was also a lot lazier than Armstrong. Lance never showed up at early season races looking like this:

    heavy%20jan%20ullrich.jpg?__SQUARESPACE_CACHEVERSION=1200411793613


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,010 ✭✭✭velo.2010


    el tonto wrote: »
    It wasn't like Operation Puerto uncovered some two bit operation...............Certainly Ullrich was regarded has having a huge natural talent. But he was also a lot lazier than Armstrong.

    Not knocking the seriousness of the Puerto investigation it just appears Armstrong went to the ends of the Earth to get what he needed and cover things up-and had some pretty big hitters willing to help him out!

    As regards Ullrich... yeah I should have said 'more talented' but you knew what I meant. Incredible what he did manage to achieve carrying that 'over-weight'.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,266 ✭✭✭Junior


    Popo denies it.. Cyclingnews Story


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,604 ✭✭✭petethedrummer


    velo.2010 wrote: »
    Re. the Livestrong foundation. It means a lot to so many people and obviously should survive in some form to continue the services it provides. Maybe people will be less inclined to heap so much praise on Armstrong after this saga finally comes to an end.
    Money donated to Livestrong goes towards cancer awareness, not cancer research. I know where I'd prefer my money to go.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,268 ✭✭✭irishmotorist


    Money donated to Livestrong goes towards cancer awareness, not cancer research. I know where I'd prefer my money to go.

    I think I read (maybe on here) that there's livestrong.org that's a very nice cancer awareness (or whatever) charity and livestrong.com that's profitable (for something) and not charitable. Sorry if I'm a bit short on facts here...:o

    Anyway, I remember when I read it thinking that the 2 organisations being so similarly named could lead to confusion and somebody thinking he's great when he's, in fact, just rich.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,604 ✭✭✭petethedrummer


    I think I read (maybe on here) that there's livestrong.org that's a very nice cancer awareness (or whatever) charity and livestrong.com that's profitable (for something) and not charitable. Sorry if I'm a bit short on facts here...:o

    Well Livestrong.com isn't a charity. But to be honest its pretty hard to spend money on the website, in fact I couldn't find anything that could be bought on it. That's not to say it doesn't generate income from advertising.

    Where the lines become blurred is all detailed in this thread in the clinic
    http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showthread.php?t=11579


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,833 ✭✭✭niceonetom


    "Dude, are you that stupid," Armstrong asked the media. "Which part of 'I'm not commenting' is not clear to you?"

    I think LA's supposed media savvy has been slipping over the last couple of years. He seems increasingly erratic and his media posturing looks more and more obviously contrived. He hung back at the (neutralised) start of Stage 3 of the TDU so he could kiss his baby and wife goodbye in front of the cameras and then, when he was back with the team, had them all line out the front for him to pose again. Every day must seem like his last now.

    I'm really hoping for some sort of media freak out. A white ford bronco. A kidnapped Olsen twin (the other one). Progressively more psychotic twittering - perhaps a feud between @lancearmstrong and @juanpelota. An armed stand-off on a Texas hilltop. Eventual arrest of hugely bearded LA having been found hiding in a hole in the desert. Hilarious mugshot. Show trial. The lot.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,176 ✭✭✭Idleater


    niceonetom wrote: »
    Hilarious mugshot. Show trial. The lot.

    ... Movie rights ... proceeds of which go to "that charity"...


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,032 ✭✭✭CheGuedara


    Idleater wrote: »
    ... Movie rights ... proceeds of which go to "that charity"...

    Or in a similar way to someones 'Fairness Fund' to a newly created 'Lance Armstrong Liberation Fund'


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,176 ✭✭✭Idleater


    CheGuedara wrote: »
    Or in a similar way to someones 'Fairness Fund' to a newly created 'Lance Armstrong Liberation Fund'

    Popular Peoples Fro...

    no never mind He's not the Messiah, he's a very naughty boy :D


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,604 ✭✭✭petethedrummer


    Its all explained in this video.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,581 ✭✭✭uberwolf


    mainstream media beginning to regurgitate this now

    BBC
    SIndo


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,266 ✭✭✭Junior


    There was a report up on Versus last night, where Landis had emailed Neil Browne I think and fingered both Vaughers and Wiggo as being dopers. He pointed out that Wiggo's numbers were the same/similar to his and he was done for blood doping. The UCI claimed the reason for Wiggo's increased Hgb count was they were using a new machine. The article has since been pulled.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,604 ✭✭✭petethedrummer



    Expert Village is a registered trademark of Demand Media.
    http://www.expertvillage.com/
    Lance Armstrong Takes “Significant” Stake In Demand Media; Launching Wellness Site Together
    http://paidcontent.org/article/419-lance-armstrong-takes-stake-in-demand-media-launching-wellness-site-tog/

    Every time you waste 5 minutes of your life watching one of those 'Expert' Village youtube videos, you know who to thank. You'd be better off smoking.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,214 ✭✭✭Quigs Snr


    Interesting point Junior. I have followed Wiggins career, read his books etc... and was just saying the other day that he was extremely anti-doping. But his stance on Lance in particular has become quite inconsistent with that in recent years. It's very obvious what went on with Lance and co back in the day, and it seems it will all soon be proven, so I had been taking this as Wiggins trying to protect his pay check as bad for Armstrong might be bad for sponsors and bad for pay cheques. I am not so sure though..

    Et Tu Wiggo ?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,833 ✭✭✭niceonetom


    I haven't seen the email (I might do some googling though) in which Landis points fingers at Vaughters and Wiggins. I presume he's saying that Vaughters was doping back in the day though, right? No big deal. Because I don't think Vaughters even denies that any more. He doesn't, I think, explicitly confirm it either, but he did describe his Mt Ventoux record as a "science experiment" or words to that effects...

    If, on the other hand, Landis is accusing Vaughters of being complicit in doping NOW, well, that's a much more serious thing. Garmin Slipstream built riding clean into the team brand, into the image, they were always going on about that ethos - to find out that was or is a sham would be very very bad. The ethos, or at least the pretence of that ethos has seemingly survived the Cervélo merger too. Cervélo also maintained an official line of scrupulous purity and now they've gone to the extreme of firing Matt White for associating with Dr. Luis Garcia del Moral. If Matt White was sending Garmin riders to Spanish doctors for "advice" in 2009, I'm mentally adding a little question mark next to Wiggins' name... and other names too. Gah!

    This sport. You need a tough skin to keep loving it.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 415 ✭✭100Suns


    Has there been any serious analysis of Wiggo's performance in the 2009 Tour with Garmin and 2010 with Sky? Has he offered any explanation for the difference in performance levels despite the (british) media expectations? His transition to the road, including body reshaping, has been remarkable.

    Despite the usual reservations about some of the top elite, I had always given him the benefit of the doubt-I hope he proves me right.


This discussion has been closed.
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