Should Irish citizens be allowed to vote from abroad?

Graham Bright · 23-01-2011 04:06PM #1

vote in my poll

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/government_in_ireland/elections_and_referenda/voting/registering_to_vote.html

Overseas voters

If you are an Irish citizen living abroad you cannot be entered on theRegister of electors. This means that you cannot vote in an election orreferendum here in Ireland. (The only exception to this is in the case of Irishofficials on duty abroad (and their spouses) who may register on the postalvoters list).

amacachi · 23-01-2011 04:06PM

Not if they're resident abroad IMO.

rugbyman · 23-01-2011 04:10PM

No, nor can I think of any reason why they should.

Regards, Rugbyman

CokaColumbo · 23-01-2011 04:11PM

If you emigrated and are living abroad I don't think so. Why should you have a say in elections when the outcome will have implications that won't effect you, i.e. tax rates, government spending, etc?

mikemac · 23-01-2011 04:11PM

No they shouldn't

Not unless they are diplomats, defence forces or on government business and this is already in place

Dionysus · 23-01-2011 04:12PM

Graham Bright wrote: »

Should Irish citizens be allowed to vote from abroad?

Yes, for the first five years or so anyway. Particularly if they've been forced out for economic reasons. It's their way of making the government of the day accountable. Far too many political leaders depend upon the safety valve or emigration to reduce pressure on the government of the day. This "that's good; let them go" attitude by politicians to emigration needs to be made accountable to the very people who suffer most from it: emigrants.

Iwasfrozen · 23-01-2011 04:18PM

Giving Irish citizens abroad a vote would also mean giving the vote to the 800 thousand or so Irish citizens in the North.

Graham Bright · 23-01-2011 04:33PM

I think it is troubling in these times of forcasted emigration that Irish citizens will be unable to vote for elections in Ireland.

According to the Economic and Social Research Institute 100,000 people will be forced out of Ireland in the next two years. It is everyones choice if they want to emigrate, however, many Irish men and women with families who have no jobs are faced with the only choice but to emigration. Surely these people deserve a right to cast their vote like other countries.

The contrast with UK passport holders could not be starker. As the Electoral Commission says on its website: "Yorkshire puddings, pubs, and having a good debate over a decent cup of tea with an old friend are just a few things you may miss while you're overseas. But living abroad doesn't stop you having your say back home."

PeakOutput · 23-01-2011 04:34PM

of course they should

Cavehill Red · 23-01-2011 04:34PM

No representation without taxation.

pawrick · 23-01-2011 04:40PM

I don't agree that all Irish citizens abroad should have the vote here.

There should be criteria such as having lived in the Republic for maybe 3 years withing in past 10 etc. otherwise as was pointed out we would have people who live in the UK (or even the USA etc.) being eligible to vote - we simply have too high proportion of people with citizen rights living abroad compared to other countries.

lugha · 23-01-2011 04:44PM

I wouldn’t favour this at all. For me, the whole purpose of political engagement at any level is that you try an affect the way society is structured in terms of how it impacts on your life.
And if you don’t live here, then you don’t pay tax here, you don’t have your children educated here, you don’t avail of the health service and other public services and infrastructure. In short, it doesn’t effect you. It may of course interest you, but that is a different matter.
Do we really want the plight of the “undocumented” Irish in the US being a major (or even minor) issue in our elections? Similarly with your Northern friends and whatever their latest petty quarrel is with the other tribe.
No, citizens everywhere who want to bring influence to bear on how they live should do so where they live.

Cosmo Kramer · 23-01-2011 04:51PM

Irish born people living abroad have as much right to vote as the unemployed in Ireland do. They don't pay taxes either, they just get handouts so the 'no representation without taxation' argument is ridiculous.

I split my time roughly 50/50 between two countries (one of which is Ireland) and feel perfectly entitled to vote in both countries.

Cavehill Red · 23-01-2011 04:52PM

Cosmo Kramer wrote: »

Irish born people living abroad have as much right to vote as the unemployed in Ireland do. They don't pay taxes either, they just get handouts so the 'no representation without taxation' argument is ridiculous.

I split my time roughly 50/50 between two countries (one of which is Ireland) and feel perfectly entitled to vote in both countries.

FYI, benefits are taxed, actually.

lugha · 23-01-2011 04:57PM

Cosmo Kramer wrote: »

Irish born people living abroad have as much right to vote as the unemployed in Ireland do. They don't pay taxes either, they just get handouts so the 'no representation without taxation' argument is ridiculous.

They don't pay income tax (though for this reason, I think the possibly should pay at least a nominal amount). But by living here they do pay other taxes.

I split my time roughly 50/50 between two countries (one of which is Ireland) and feel perfectly entitled to vote in both countries.

Presumably the other is the UK? That is down to a special arrangement between the two countries which is fairly unique (I don't think we have a similar arrangement with any other country)

Cosmo Kramer · 23-01-2011 05:08PM

Yes, the other is the UK, its fine for me but I know a lot of Irish who have been forced abroad as a result of what has happened in the last few years. As they are amongst those most affected, I feel they have as much right to a vote as those who have stayed behind and cannot find work.

Even if benefits are taxed, the unemployed are still just giving back money that the Government are handing out to them, so they are making no more of a contribution than those who moved abroad to work. In fact they are costing the taxpayer far more. (This isn't a dig at those who cannot find work, I'm just of the opinion that those who moved abroad to work have just as much right to a vote.)

Holybejaysus · 23-01-2011 05:20PM

I would say yes, they should, especially if they are one of the thousands who have had to emigrate thanks to the gombeen men in this country. They should be able to democratically ensure that the gombeen men are pulverised and scattered into the winds of history.

freyners · 23-01-2011 05:27PM

rugbyman wrote: »

No, nor can I think of any reason why they should.

Regards, Rugbyman

if they have been forced to emigrate due to the economic conditions against their will and would return when they were able to gain employment in their own country perhaps?

LizT · 23-01-2011 05:28PM

In certain circumstances, yes. I have many friends on gap years, Erasmus etc in different countries. They are gone for a year or under, but will not be able to vote.

Simarillion · 23-01-2011 05:31PM

Most other countries have a postal vote, the UK, USA and France to name a few

I lived in Ireland until September when I moved to the UK to do a post-grad course and now I will either have to fly home to vote, or not vote at all !! At the moment I won't be able to due to placements, and I have never missed voting before.

I think a postal vote should definitely be allowed.

dubhthach · 23-01-2011 05:32PM

Politicans would never allow it. Mainly as "emigration is a safety valve" protecting them from social unrest. They are hardly gonna allow the people who had to emigrate due to their mismanagment the chance to vote them out.

lugha · 23-01-2011 05:44PM

Cosmo Kramer wrote: »

Yes, the other is the UK, its fine for me but I know a lot of Irish who have been forced abroad as a result of what has happened in the last few years. As they are amongst those most affected, I feel they have as much right to a vote as those who have stayed behind and cannot find work.

There is of course a degree of anger from those who have no option but to leave. But their anger will be shared by their friends and families who stay here. Any government whose time in office leads to forced emigration will pay a price at the ballot box. By proxy, if not directly by those effected.

Cosmo Kramer wrote: »

Even if benefits are taxed, the unemployed are still just giving back money that the Government are handing out to them, so they are making no more of a contribution than those who moved abroad to work. In fact they are costing the taxpayer far more. (This isn't a dig at those who cannot find work, I'm just of the opinion that those who moved abroad to work have just as much right to a vote.)

Social welfare is intended, in most cases, as a temporary arrangement. If you able-bodied and fit for work, then the deal is that you make your contribution to society, occasionally depending on social welfare, between jobs so to speak.
Thus over a longer period of time, most people who reside continuously in the country will be. or at least should be, gainfully employed most of the time and contributing to the tax take.
It would be totally unfair to suggest to an upstanding citizen who was unfortunate to lose their job that they should also forfeit their right to vote.

paky · 23-01-2011 05:50PM

they should be given the right. there are alot of people who had to immigrate the last couple of years and they should have the right to hit back at the government who forced them to leave

seven-iron · 23-01-2011 05:54PM

i may not pay income tax but I pay dirt and cgt still so yeah i should have the right to vote

Inverse to the power of one! · 23-01-2011 06:28PM

First up as some are suggesting, a vote abroad would not have to invoke the grandfather rule....It's not soccer!

Secondly, what's with all the wanna be hardliners on this issue, I don't see the vote abroad bothering American libertarians and Repub's and their the ones all up in their taxation and representation.....

Lastly, I'm abroad for the fact that were I at home, I would be on my arse decaying without a job and no future.....that I left to avoid such a fate should not begrudge me my vote or my say in the country I hope to return to one day.

Yours having paid a lifetime in taxes before I left....Thanks for the fish,
ITTPOO

Cat Melodeon · 23-01-2011 06:41PM

Inverse to the power of one! wrote: »

Secondly, what's with all the wanna be hardliners on this issue, I don't see the vote abroad bothering American libertarians and Repub's and their the ones all up in their taxation and representation.....

American taxation law requires it's citizens to file a tax return regardless of where they live. US citizens abroad often have to pay tax to two countries. They continue to pay tax to the US and retain their voting rights. If our emigrants want to retain their right to vote, they should also continue to contribute to the country through taxation.

Graham Bright · 23-01-2011 07:14PM

Is it the fault of individuals who are forced to emigrate that they cannot pay taxes to Ireland while living abroad? Additionally, if you work for an Irish company while living abroad you may be entitled to pay into the Irish tax system. However, you still are not entitled to vote.

So I would disagree with comments concerning payment of social insurance and tax.

Additionally, I do agree that as an island there are probably a greater number of citizens living in foreign countries.

Maybe specific criteria needs to be established such as the number of years away, and reasons for emigrating? With such political and economic unrest in Ireland presently, and with most of my friends and family either out of a job or in a job that they are overqualified for, I feel helpless and powerless to change the situation back home. My vote is the only way I can contribute to changing the landscape for future generations to come.

dubhthach · 23-01-2011 07:29PM

Cat Melodeon wrote: »

American taxation law requires it's citizens to file a tax return regardless of where they live. US citizens abroad often have to pay tax to two countries. They continue to pay tax to the US and retain their voting rights. If our emigrants want to retain their right to vote, they should also continue to contribute to the country through taxation.

Perhaps we should take a leaf out of the american playbook in this regard. After all we have plenty of Irish millionares/billionares becoming "tax-exiles". Forcing every citzen to do a tax return would help combat that. As for been taxed in two countries. If you are an American citzen working in Ireland (for example) the IRS will give you a "Foreign Tax credit" so as to reduce the chances of double taxation.

pow wow · 24-01-2011 12:17AM

Simarillion wrote: »

Most other countries have a postal vote, the UK, USA and France to name a few

I lived in Ireland until September when I moved to the UK to do a post-grad course and now I will either have to fly home to vote, or not vote at all !! At the moment I won't be able to due to placements, and I have never missed voting before.

I think a postal vote should definitely be allowed.

Postal voting in that context doesn't operate uniformly throughout the UK - in Northern Ireland it has to be done by a nominated proxy (they don't send poll cards to non-UK addresses). As an aside, in NI anyone applying to be included as an overseas elector has to confirm that they are a British citizen meaning those born in NI claiming Irish citizenship who subsequently move outside the UK cannot register as overseas electors (this is under review though!).

I'm a bit of fence-sitter on the original question as I've lived outside Ireland for my entire voting life (emigrated before I turned 18) though I personally never felt cheated by the fact I couldn't vote in elections back home. Now that I'm back I will of course be voting (especially as NI won't let me for reasons outlined above!). I guess my opinion is that if you're extended voting rights in the country you are living in in relation to their elections then you shouldn't have a right to vote in Irish ones too.

johnmcdnl · 24-01-2011 01:29AM

everyone in the north could vote in the election as well to begin with because they have dual citizenship if I'm not mistaken??

then what constituency do you vote in??

then image what would happen if some unionist party decided to send a candidate to run for the dail in a constituency and told everyone who supported that party to register to vote in that constituency and get their guy elected - not only undermining the entire electoral system in ireland but completely disrupting a constituency's right to get the people they want elected because of the skewed number of people voting who had nothing to do with that area...

that's just a hypothetical situation but entirely possible...

can you give me a single reason why someone who doesn't even live in the country should have a vote in this country??

also just out of interest - does anyone know how many people in the world actually have irish citizenship or would be entitled to it if they wanted???

simple answer to your question - no they shouldn't

jank · 24-01-2011 02:26AM

Cavehill Red wrote: »

No representation without taxation.

Should we exclude all those resident in Ireland who dont pay tax so?

Should Irish citizens be allowed to vote from abroad?

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