Should Irish citizens be allowed to vote from abroad?

Graham Bright

vote in my poll

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/government_in_ireland/elections_and_referenda/voting/registering_to_vote.html

Overseas voters

If you are an Irish citizen living abroad you cannot be entered on theRegister of electors. This means that you cannot vote in an election orreferendum here in Ireland. (The only exception to this is in the case of Irishofficials on duty abroad (and their spouses) who may register on the postalvoters list).

amacachi

Not if they're resident abroad IMO.

rugbyman

No, nor can I think of any reason why they should.

Regards, Rugbyman

CokaColumbo

If you emigrated and are living abroad I don't think so. Why should you have a say in elections when the outcome will have implications that won't effect you, i.e. tax rates, government spending, etc?

mikemac

No they shouldn't

Not unless they are diplomats, defence forces or on government business and this is already in place

Dionysus

Graham Bright wrote: »

Should Irish citizens be allowed to vote from abroad?

Yes, for the first five years or so anyway. Particularly if they've been forced out for economic reasons. It's their way of making the government of the day accountable. Far too many political leaders depend upon the safety valve or emigration to reduce pressure on the government of the day. This "that's good; let them go" attitude by politicians to emigration needs to be made accountable to the very people who suffer most from it: emigrants.

Iwasfrozen

Giving Irish citizens abroad a vote would also mean giving the vote to the 800 thousand or so Irish citizens in the North.

Graham Bright

I think it is troubling in these times of forcasted emigration that Irish citizens will be unable to vote for elections in Ireland.

According to the Economic and Social Research Institute 100,000 people will be forced out of Ireland in the next two years. It is everyones choice if they want to emigrate, however, many Irish men and women with families who have no jobs are faced with the only choice but to emigration. Surely these people deserve a right to cast their vote like other countries.

The contrast with UK passport holders could not be starker. As the Electoral Commission says on its website: "Yorkshire puddings, pubs, and having a good debate over a decent cup of tea with an old friend are just a few things you may miss while you're overseas. But living abroad doesn't stop you having your say back home."

PeakOutput

of course they should

Cavehill Red

No representation without taxation.

pawrick

I don't agree that all Irish citizens abroad should have the vote here.

There should be criteria such as having lived in the Republic for maybe 3 years withing in past 10 etc. otherwise as was pointed out we would have people who live in the UK (or even the USA etc.) being eligible to vote - we simply have too high proportion of people with citizen rights living abroad compared to other countries.

lugha

I wouldn’t favour this at all. For me, the whole purpose of political engagement at any level is that you try an affect the way society is structured in terms of how it impacts on your life.
And if you don’t live here, then you don’t pay tax here, you don’t have your children educated here, you don’t avail of the health service and other public services and infrastructure. In short, it doesn’t effect you. It may of course interest you, but that is a different matter.
Do we really want the plight of the “undocumented” Irish in the US being a major (or even minor) issue in our elections? Similarly with your Northern friends and whatever their latest petty quarrel is with the other tribe.
No, citizens everywhere who want to bring influence to bear on how they live should do so where they live.

Cosmo Kramer

Irish born people living abroad have as much right to vote as the unemployed in Ireland do. They don't pay taxes either, they just get handouts so the 'no representation without taxation' argument is ridiculous.

I split my time roughly 50/50 between two countries (one of which is Ireland) and feel perfectly entitled to vote in both countries.

Cavehill Red

Cosmo Kramer wrote: »

Irish born people living abroad have as much right to vote as the unemployed in Ireland do. They don't pay taxes either, they just get handouts so the 'no representation without taxation' argument is ridiculous.

I split my time roughly 50/50 between two countries (one of which is Ireland) and feel perfectly entitled to vote in both countries.

FYI, benefits are taxed, actually.

lugha

Cosmo Kramer wrote: »

Irish born people living abroad have as much right to vote as the unemployed in Ireland do. They don't pay taxes either, they just get handouts so the 'no representation without taxation' argument is ridiculous.

They don't pay income tax (though for this reason, I think the possibly should pay at least a nominal amount). But by living here they do pay other taxes.

I split my time roughly 50/50 between two countries (one of which is Ireland) and feel perfectly entitled to vote in both countries.

Presumably the other is the UK? That is down to a special arrangement between the two countries which is fairly unique (I don't think we have a similar arrangement with any other country)

Cosmo Kramer

Yes, the other is the UK, its fine for me but I know a lot of Irish who have been forced abroad as a result of what has happened in the last few years. As they are amongst those most affected, I feel they have as much right to a vote as those who have stayed behind and cannot find work.

Even if benefits are taxed, the unemployed are still just giving back money that the Government are handing out to them, so they are making no more of a contribution than those who moved abroad to work. In fact they are costing the taxpayer far more. (This isn't a dig at those who cannot find work, I'm just of the opinion that those who moved abroad to work have just as much right to a vote.)

Holybejaysus

I would say yes, they should, especially if they are one of the thousands who have had to emigrate thanks to the gombeen men in this country. They should be able to democratically ensure that the gombeen men are pulverised and scattered into the winds of history.

freyners

rugbyman wrote: »

No, nor can I think of any reason why they should.

Regards, Rugbyman

if they have been forced to emigrate due to the economic conditions against their will and would return when they were able to gain employment in their own country perhaps?

LizT

In certain circumstances, yes. I have many friends on gap years, Erasmus etc in different countries. They are gone for a year or under, but will not be able to vote.

Simarillion

Most other countries have a postal vote, the UK, USA and France to name a few


I lived in Ireland until September when I moved to the UK to do a post-grad course and now I will either have to fly home to vote, or not vote at all !! At the moment I won't be able to due to placements, and I have never missed voting before.

I think a postal vote should definitely be allowed.

dubhthach

Politicans would never allow it. Mainly as "emigration is a safety valve" protecting them from social unrest. They are hardly gonna allow the people who had to emigrate due to their mismanagment the chance to vote them out.

lugha

Cosmo Kramer wrote: »

Yes, the other is the UK, its fine for me but I know a lot of Irish who have been forced abroad as a result of what has happened in the last few years. As they are amongst those most affected, I feel they have as much right to a vote as those who have stayed behind and cannot find work.

There is of course a degree of anger from those who have no option but to leave. But their anger will be shared by their friends and families who stay here. Any government whose time in office leads to forced emigration will pay a price at the ballot box. By proxy, if not directly by those effected.

Cosmo Kramer wrote: »

Even if benefits are taxed, the unemployed are still just giving back money that the Government are handing out to them, so they are making no more of a contribution than those who moved abroad to work. In fact they are costing the taxpayer far more. (This isn't a dig at those who cannot find work, I'm just of the opinion that those who moved abroad to work have just as much right to a vote.)

Social welfare is intended, in most cases, as a temporary arrangement. If you able-bodied and fit for work, then the deal is that you make your contribution to society, occasionally depending on social welfare, between jobs so to speak.
Thus over a longer period of time, most people who reside continuously in the country will be. or at least should be, gainfully employed most of the time and contributing to the tax take.
It would be totally unfair to suggest to an upstanding citizen who was unfortunate to lose their job that they should also forfeit their right to vote.

paky

they should be given the right. there are alot of people who had to immigrate the last couple of years and they should have the right to hit back at the government who forced them to leave

seven-iron

i may not pay income tax but I pay dirt and cgt still so yeah i should have the right to vote

Inverse to the power of one!

First up as some are suggesting, a vote abroad would not have to invoke the grandfather rule....It's not soccer!

Secondly, what's with all the wanna be hardliners on this issue, I don't see the vote abroad bothering American libertarians and Repub's and their the ones all up in their taxation and representation.....

Lastly, I'm abroad for the fact that were I at home, I would be on my arse decaying without a job and no future.....that I left to avoid such a fate should not begrudge me my vote or my say in the country I hope to return to one day.


Yours having paid a lifetime in taxes before I left....Thanks for the fish,
ITTPOO

Cat Melodeon

Inverse to the power of one! wrote: »

Secondly, what's with all the wanna be hardliners on this issue, I don't see the vote abroad bothering American libertarians and Repub's and their the ones all up in their taxation and representation.....

American taxation law requires it's citizens to file a tax return regardless of where they live. US citizens abroad often have to pay tax to two countries. They continue to pay tax to the US and retain their voting rights. If our emigrants want to retain their right to vote, they should also continue to contribute to the country through taxation.

Graham Bright

Is it the fault of individuals who are forced to emigrate that they cannot pay taxes to Ireland while living abroad? Additionally, if you work for an Irish company while living abroad you may be entitled to pay into the Irish tax system. However, you still are not entitled to vote.

So I would disagree with comments concerning payment of social insurance and tax.

Additionally, I do agree that as an island there are probably a greater number of citizens living in foreign countries.

Maybe specific criteria needs to be established such as the number of years away, and reasons for emigrating? With such political and economic unrest in Ireland presently, and with most of my friends and family either out of a job or in a job that they are overqualified for, I feel helpless and powerless to change the situation back home. My vote is the only way I can contribute to changing the landscape for future generations to come.

dubhthach

Cat Melodeon wrote: »

American taxation law requires it's citizens to file a tax return regardless of where they live. US citizens abroad often have to pay tax to two countries. They continue to pay tax to the US and retain their voting rights. If our emigrants want to retain their right to vote, they should also continue to contribute to the country through taxation.

Perhaps we should take a leaf out of the american playbook in this regard. After all we have plenty of Irish millionares/billionares becoming "tax-exiles". Forcing every citzen to do a tax return would help combat that. As for been taxed in two countries. If you are an American citzen working in Ireland (for example) the IRS will give you a "Foreign Tax credit" so as to reduce the chances of double taxation.

pow wow

Simarillion wrote: »

Most other countries have a postal vote, the UK, USA and France to name a few


I lived in Ireland until September when I moved to the UK to do a post-grad course and now I will either have to fly home to vote, or not vote at all !! At the moment I won't be able to due to placements, and I have never missed voting before.

I think a postal vote should definitely be allowed.

Postal voting in that context doesn't operate uniformly throughout the UK - in Northern Ireland it has to be done by a nominated proxy (they don't send poll cards to non-UK addresses). As an aside, in NI anyone applying to be included as an overseas elector has to confirm that they are a British citizen meaning those born in NI claiming Irish citizenship who subsequently move outside the UK cannot register as overseas electors (this is under review though!).

I'm a bit of fence-sitter on the original question as I've lived outside Ireland for my entire voting life (emigrated before I turned 18) though I personally never felt cheated by the fact I couldn't vote in elections back home. Now that I'm back I will of course be voting (especially as NI won't let me for reasons outlined above!). I guess my opinion is that if you're extended voting rights in the country you are living in in relation to their elections then you shouldn't have a right to vote in Irish ones too.

johnmcdnl

everyone in the north could vote in the election as well to begin with because they have dual citizenship if I'm not mistaken??

then what constituency do you vote in??

then image what would happen if some unionist party decided to send a candidate to run for the dail in a constituency and told everyone who supported that party to register to vote in that constituency and get their guy elected - not only undermining the entire electoral system in ireland but completely disrupting a constituency's right to get the people they want elected because of the skewed number of people voting who had nothing to do with that area...

that's just a hypothetical situation but entirely possible...

can you give me a single reason why someone who doesn't even live in the country should have a vote in this country??

also just out of interest - does anyone know how many people in the world actually have irish citizenship or would be entitled to it if they wanted???

simple answer to your question - no they shouldn't

jank

Cavehill Red wrote: »

No representation without taxation.

Should we exclude all those resident in Ireland who dont pay tax so?

jank

seven-iron wrote: »

i may not pay income tax but I pay dirt and cgt still so yeah i should have the right to vote

Same here. So should this be a good reason to give me a vote so.?;)
The answer to the question is Yes of course.

Just because you are living abroad doesnt mean you are "less" Irish.
Most other democracies allow for this and in fact the largest democracy in the world is trying to get legislation in place to allow emigrants to vote. The UK do it, Germans, Italians, Australians...etc.

Bit of a no brainer really.


MOD: Any chance of a poll!?

jank

Cat Melodeon wrote: »

American taxation law requires it's citizens to file a tax return regardless of where they live. US citizens abroad often have to pay tax to two countries. They continue to pay tax to the US and retain their voting rights. If our emigrants want to retain their right to vote, they should also continue to contribute to the country through taxation.

One needs to earn over $80k to me liable for tax abroad.

Cavehill Red

jank wrote: »

Should we exclude all those resident in Ireland who dont pay tax so?

Children, you mean? They're already excluded.

Let me ask all the ex-pats who chose to leave the country this simple question: are you prepared to file a tax return to Ireland annually in order to vote?

My mate's a Yank, lives here and votes in US Presidential elections. He has to make a tax return to the States every year or he doesn't get a vote. Now, he mightn't be handing them a red cent some years, but he still has to make the return, fill in the forms, send them off, have them checked.

Are you prepared to do that?

jank

Cavehill Red wrote: »

Children, you mean? They're already excluded.?

Big Bankers, people on the dole, people who for the last few years were on minimum wage..etc..

Cavehill Red wrote: »

Let me ask all the ex-pats who chose to leave the country this simple question: are you prepared to file a tax return to Ireland annually in order to vote?

Yes!!! Absolutely.

Cavehill Red wrote: »

My mate's a Yank, lives here and votes in US Presidential elections. He has to make a tax return to the States every year or he doesn't get a vote. Now, he mightn't be handing them a red cent some years, but he still has to make the return, fill in the forms, send them off, have them checked.

Are you prepared to do that?

Yes!

I did two tax returns last year. One for NZ the other for Australia. This year I will just be doing Australia. A tax return for Ireland would not be a problem for me. Sure if/when my investments mature at a profit I have to submit a tax return for that. Ill have to do it anyway and it doesnt matter if I am resident in Ireland or the south pole.

jank

Anyway my point is that I am being taxed but not represented.

Slunk

I'm on a whv in Australia at the moment and won't be able to vote. I worked and paid taxes in Ireland for six years and will probably be back in October. I think its a joke that i can't vote and i know there a thousands of others in the same situation.

Xavi6

Course we should. I want to move home to Ireland but can't due to the situation. Until it gets corrected I'll be staying abroad despite having skills that could benefit the country, and there are thousands like me.

I should be able to have a say in where I would like the spend my future.

Magi11

dubhthach wrote: »

Politicans would never allow it. Mainly as "emigration is a safety valve" protecting them from social unrest. They are hardly gonna allow the people who had to emigrate due to their mismanagment the chance to vote them out.

FF politicians would never allow it but as they are going to be as influential in the next few Dails as the Monster Raving Looney Party it doesn't really matter what they think.
I think some if not most countries allow this and it should be tried with a competent government in charge. Not like the last crowd who didn't do anything if there wasn't a political upside for them.

munchkin_utd

Magi11 wrote: »

...
I think some if not most countries allow this and it should be tried with a competent government in charge. Not like the last crowd who didn't do anything if there wasn't a political upside for them.

Germany is a good example of a country with a large diaspora through decent, millions in east europe were entitled to german citizenship due to german heritage.
The rule there is that if you lived a minimum of 3 months on german soil (inside the current borders of unified germany) then you can vote from abroad.
So effectively in that case that takes care of the people who have passports but never lived in the country, and are probably unlikely enough to ever move to the country or know a fierce amount about the politics.

An example of a country with high recent emmigration are the greeks who voting for their citizens abroad. In germany theres 300,000 + and in Australia 100,000 Greek born people. So considering theres only just over 10 million in Greece, its a high enough percentage of people abroad that have a right to vote.

The representation/ taxation thing is an arguement BUT on the other side,
those on the dole OR the 50% of the workforce that Bertie decided should be exempt from tax.
They can vote but arent paying taxes.
Which essentially means they are voting to shape the future of the country.

Those of us abroad with close links to Ireland should also have a voice in the shaping of the country which many of us hope to go back to sooner or later, just like people in other nations do in their homeland.

mdebets

Rather than allowing people to vote, who won't be impacted by the election (i.e. Irish abroad), people who are actually impacted by the election (i.e foreigners in Ireland) should be allowed to vote.

This might also address some of the problems with Irish elections, like the 'I vote for candidate X, because my father vote for his father and my grandfather voted for his grandfather and anyhow, they were on the right side in an event over 80 years ago' voters and the 'I vote for candidate X, because he fixed the minor pothole in front of my house' voters.

Xavi6

mdebets wrote: »

Rather than allowing people to vote, who won't be impacted by the election (i.e. Irish abroad), people who are actually impacted by the election (i.e foreigners in Ireland) should be allowed to vote.

This might also address some of the problems with Irish elections, like the 'I vote for candidate X, because my father vote for his father and my grandfather voted for his grandfather and anyhow, they were on the right side in an event over 80 years ago' voters and the 'I vote for candidate X, because he fixed the minor pothole in front of my house' voters.

I will be impacted by the election because the incoming Government will shape my future. The current regime are preventing me from coming home so I have quite a vested interest in who gets in next.

moonstone63

Cavehill Red wrote: »

No representation without taxation.

I'm in the opposite situation: I pay my taxes (have done that for the past) but cannot vote - unless I pay out 950 euros to become an Irish citizen - Ironically I can vote for the Italian parliament by post from my West Cork garden.... I only do that because I'd love to see Silvio in Mountjoy:D

jonnny68

Cosmo Kramer wrote: »

Irish born people living abroad have as much right to vote as the unemployed in Ireland do.

I split my time roughly 50/50 between two countries (one of which is Ireland) and feel perfectly entitled to vote in both countries.

Likewise and well said.

Snakeblood

Graham Bright wrote: »

vote in my poll

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/government_in_ireland/elections_and_referenda/voting/registering_to_vote.html

Overseas voters

If you are an Irish citizen living abroad you cannot be entered on theRegister of electors. This means that you cannot vote in an election orreferendum here in Ireland. (The only exception to this is in the case of Irishofficials on duty abroad (and their spouses) who may register on the postalvoters list).

It should be a set duration, like 1 Dail lifetime after emigration. or 4-5 years after emigration. That way they can't have a long term effect on the country when they've been gone for ages, but they can register their feelings on the govt. that was extant while they were emigrating.

ejmaztec

This issue was a sore point with many of the Irish immigrants that I spoke to in the UK, one of them even suggesting that, had they been allowed a postal vote, Ireland would have been a Marxist republic, and that would have been Karma for the various regimes that never treated job-creation seriously, instead relying on mass emigration to save them the trouble.

DoesNotCompute

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Giving Irish citizens abroad a vote would also mean giving the vote to the 800 thousand or so Irish citizens in the North.

Don't forget the (roughly) 6 million* or so Irish citizens/passport holders "of Irish descent" around the world , many of whom claim their citizenship through descent. Many of these Irish citizens would have no interest or desire to vote in an Irish General Election, and would only apply for citizenship/an Irish passport as (a) official recognition of their heritage, or (b) to enable them to travel to/work in Europe/the UK without the hassle of applying for a visa/residency. But I digress.

I used to think that Irish citizens living abroad should have no say in General Elections, but I am starting to think that the recently emigrated Irish abroad should at the very least be allowed to register their disgust at the current regime's incompetence.

Perhaps allowing the diaspora to vote for 3 to 5 years after they have emigrated would be a more preferable option to the current system.

*not sure about this figure - this might be just Irish citizens in Britain alone

thebigcheese22

Well I'm a student in an Irish university who is studying in Paris for a year...why should I be deprived of my vote while trying to further my studies? There is no reason why postal votes should not be allowed. I'm very critical of the US in a lot of things, but this is an area where they are spot on.

jester77

munchkin_utd wrote: »

Germany is a good example of a country with a large diaspora through decent, millions in east europe were entitled to german citizenship due to german heritage.
The rule there is that if you lived a minimum of 3 months on german soil (inside the current borders of unified germany) then you can vote from abroad.
So effectively in that case that takes care of the people who have passports but never lived in the country, and are probably unlikely enough to ever move to the country or know a fierce amount about the politics.

An example of a country with high recent emmigration are the greeks who voting for their citizens abroad. In germany theres 300,000 + and in Australia 100,000 Greek born people. So considering theres only just over 10 million in Greece, its a high enough percentage of people abroad that have a right to vote.

The representation/ taxation thing is an arguement BUT on the other side,
those on the dole OR the 50% of the workforce that Bertie decided should be exempt from tax.
They can vote but arent paying taxes.
Which essentially means they are voting to shape the future of the country.

Those of us abroad with close links to Ireland should also have a voice in the shaping of the country which many of us hope to go back to sooner or later, just like people in other nations do in their homeland.

Yet on the other hand, I have lived and paid taxes in Germany for nearly 10 years and I am not entitled to a vote and have a say in how the country is run. I can only vote in local or EU elections. I don't see the point in someone like me having a vote in how Ireland is run as it has little relevance to me right now. If I ever return to Ireland, then I can then register and have a say. There should be a 6 or 12 month cut off point from when you left the country for letting people postal vote.

enda1

I live abroad and I don't think I should be allowed to vote in representative elections (Parliamentary, council, MEP or Presidential). I do think I should be allowed to vote in Referenda however.

wolfpawnat

Yes, it is their birth-rite! If they have been forced to leave this country in search of work and hope to return then yes, they should have their say.

Also some people (those few who can afford it) who are abroad for holidays during an election should get to vote too, after all they have to come back to Ireland after their holiday and a two week break to the Mediterranean doesn't mean you should lose the right to vote for who you want running your country or not getting your say in the altering of our constitution!