Why the disregard of Sinn Féin?

21-01-2011 12:40AM

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

No offense, but do we really need to get into a debate on the justification for armed conflict? This aint the thread for it methinks.

Sinn Fein today are intertwined with it

6 mins 30 secs in former IRA man Brendan Hughes tells all about the murder
of Jean Mc Conville implicating Gerry Adams in her murder
RTE Documentary "Voices from the grave"

so yeah its totally relevant

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2002/sep/30/northernireland.northernireland1

Moloney accuses Mr Adams of setting up a special unit to enable the IRA to dispose of those it did not want to admit having murdered, and he says the republican leader was head of the Belfast brigade at the time of the disappearance and murder of a Falls Road mother of 10.

Brendan Huges also accuses Adams of being in charge of "The Unknowns" who made people "disappear".

Wolfe Tone · 21-01-2011 12:44AM

Deleted User wrote: »

Sinn Fein today are intertwined with it

6 mins 30 secs in former IRA man Brendan Hughes tells all about the murder
of Jean Mc Conville implicating Gerry Adams in her murder
RTE Documentary "Voices from the grave"

so yeah its totally relevant

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2002/sep/30/northernireland.northernireland1

Brendan Huges also accuses Adams of being in charge of "The Unknowns" who made people "disappear".

Things happen in war that no one likes, myself included. However, you have to ask yourself was that war justified(as a whole, not individual events). Then ask yourself were the various previous rebellions justified. I could look at any war and pick out atrocities, thats not looking at the whole picture.

Liam Byrne · 21-01-2011 12:59AM

I don't think I can actually say why without sparking off the usual.

Safe to say that some unacceptable fairly recent activities and double-standards keep them off my possibility list.

lugha · 21-01-2011 01:02AM

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

Things happen in war that no one likes, myself included. However, you have to ask yourself was that war justified(as a whole, not individual events). Then ask yourself were the various previous rebellions justified. I could look at any war and pick out atrocities, thats not looking at the whole picture.

The particular thing that needs to be asked that is relevant to this thread is whether or not those who seek to serve in the Dail fully recognize the state and unconditionally support the gardai. In their attempts to bring the "hawks" with them, SF have been somewhat half-arsed about this.

Hannibal · 21-01-2011 01:05AM

Deleted User wrote: »

Brendan Hughes also accuses Adams of being in charge of "The Unknowns" who made people "disappear".

and these are the accusations of a dead man so it must obviously be through. I dont believe Gerry Adams was a member of the IRA but coming from where he was and from a Republican family he had a lot of influence over people in his area which allowed him to rise quickly in SF. He was and is a very intelligent and calculating person who basically used his position in SF and influence over republicans over time to guide the IRA into a peace process. Many ex IRA men like McGuinness and Gerry Kelly joined him in these ideas. Some people cant see the difference between SF and the IRA because they believe the media too much.
I know many ex members of the IRA who were never associated with SF in any way, same way I know SF members who were in the IRA and also SF members who were never in the IRA. I've always seen a clear line between the two. Many people change opinion and some may have been part of the army at one stage and then saw politics as the way forward and vice versa.

Wolfe Tone · 21-01-2011 01:06AM

lugha wrote: »

The particular thing that needs to be asked that is relevant to this thread is whether or not those who seek to serve in the Dail fully recognize the state and unconditionally support the gardai. In their attempts to bring the "hawks" with them, SF have been somewhat half-arsed about this.

If they are prepared to fully back the god forsaken PSNI then I doubt they have much problem in supporting An Garda Síochana.

Liam Byrne · 21-01-2011 01:08AM

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

If they are prepared to fully back the god forsaken PSNI then I doubt they have much problem in supporting An Garda Síochana.

Do I need to "mention the war" ? They don't fully support An Garda Siochana, and they continue to refer to Ireland as a group of counties rather than a country.

lugha · 21-01-2011 01:11AM

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

If they are prepared to fully back the god forsaken PSNI then I doubt they have much problem in supporting An Garda Síochana.

If a member of the SF party can embrace those that murdered Det. McCabe and face no sanctions from the party, then they plainly do not fully support the gardai.

Wolfe Tone · 21-01-2011 01:14AM

lugha wrote: »

If a member of the SF party can embrace those that murdered Det. McCabe and face no sanctions from the party, then they plainly do not fully support the gardai.

Tell me, do they fully support the PSNI?

In the eyes of near every republican the psni/ruc is a billion times worse than AGS ever has been. If SF can ignore blatant abuses by the PSNI in the name of political progress than I don't see how you can argue that SF wont support what is for the most part, an excellent force.

Liam Byrne · 21-01-2011 01:16AM

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

Tell me, do they fully support the PSNI?

In the eyes of near every republican the psni/ruc is a billion times worse than AGS ever has been. If SF can ignore blatant abuses by the PSNI in the name of political progress than I don't see how you can argue that SF wont support what is for the most part, an excellent force.

Huh ? It's actually pretty simple to argue considering what they've condoned!

Wolfe Tone · 21-01-2011 01:17AM

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Do I need to "mention the war" ? They don't fully support An Garda Siochana, and they continue to refer to Ireland as a group of counties rather than a country.

Liam, I am not getting into a debate on the reasons why republicans refer to the two states on this partitioned island as they do, it is OT.

Wolfe Tone · 21-01-2011 01:18AM

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Huh ? It's actually pretty simple to argue considering what they've condoned!

So according to you they dont support the PSNI?

Liam Byrne · 21-01-2011 01:19AM

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

Liam, I am not getting into a debate on the reasons why republicans refer to the two states on this partitioned island as they do, it is OT.

It's not off-topic to highlight, though, because it's a valid reason why they're not acceptable to vote for.

A debate on why they call it that might be off-topic, but the fact that they call it that means that the result of that stance is on-topic.

Let's take a (hopefully less emotive) example:

A referendum is passed into law by a majority to provide for gay marraige, but because I don't agree with it I refuse to call married gay couples "married", because I'd prefer that it hadn't been passed. Someone picks up on that and decides as a result not to vote for me because I come across as being unable to deal with the truth and stuck in my own little ways.

Isn't it perfectly valid for them not to want to vote for me as a result, because I'm denying reality ? Even if that is against my religion or beliefs ?

feicim · 21-01-2011 01:20AM

Monty Burnz wrote: »

So anyone who disagrees with Shinner propaganda is talking nonsense? I suppose I'd better keep my mouth shut or a volunteer will be around to see to my knees...

So anyone who disagrees with a Shinner... gets knee capped?

This, truly, is nonsense.

Irish voters haven't got a clue - hence Fianna Fail being voted in time and time again and destroying the country.

Liam Byrne · 21-01-2011 01:21AM

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

So according to you they dont support the PSNI?

I said no such thing. I didn't mention or refer to the PSNI.

I said that they obviously don't support the Gardaí.

Wolfe Tone · 21-01-2011 01:23AM

Liam Byrne wrote: »

I said no such thing. I didn't mention or refer to the PSNI.

I said that they obviously don't support the Gardaí.

But what about the actions they have condoned against the RUC?

Using your logic they don't properly support the PSNI.

feicim · 21-01-2011 01:24AM

Liam Byrne wrote: »

I said no such thing. I didn't mention or refer to the PSNI.

I said that they obviously don't support the Gardaí.

No one really likes the gardai. (apart from themselves).:)

Hannibal · 21-01-2011 01:26AM

feicim wrote: »

So anyone who disagrees with a Shinner... gets knee capped?

This, truly, is nonsense.

Irish voters haven't got a clue - hence Fianna Fail being voted in time and time again and destroying the country.

that particular poster hadnt a clue. Its the type of ignorant nonsense that you regularly see on this. I dont think the majority of people on here actually understand Irish history from 1900-2000, if they did we'd see a greater level of debate on here.

Liam Byrne · 21-01-2011 01:30AM

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

But what about the actions they have condoned against the RUC?

Using your logic they don't properly support the PSNI.

I don't know what way you're "using" my logic, but please refrain from doing so.

If they've condoned murder of the PSNI, refused to condemn said murders until shamed into doing so, or collected their murderers from jail, then yes, it's true that they don't support the PSNI.

But the PSNI aren't part of the discussion, which refers to an election in this state.

feicim wrote: »

No one really likes the gardai. (apart from themselves).:)

Untrue.

Wolfe Tone · 21-01-2011 01:34AM

Liam Byrne wrote: »

I don't know what way you're "using" my logic, but please refrain from doing so.

If they've condoned murder of the PSNI, refused to condemn said murders until shamed into doing so, or collected their murderers from jail, then yes, it's true that they don't support the PSNI.

But the PSNI aren't part of the discussion, which refers to an election in this state.

They have done all that with the RUC. Yet the unionists seem satisfied that SF support the PSNI. If SF support the PSNI they deffo support AGS.

SF are an all Ireland party, thats a huge factor in deciding to vote for them or not.

lugha · 21-01-2011 01:42AM

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

SF are an all Ireland party, thats a huge factor in deciding to vote for them or not.

Actually it is not an issue at all. To get back to the OPs question, one card SF could have played more forcefully than the other parties in the past was the UI card. But that is now eaten bread. The mechanism to bring that about has been agreed. Whether SF are a small party or a slightly less small party after the next GE will have no impact on the timetable of events of that particular foolish project.

Wolfe Tone · 21-01-2011 01:47AM

lugha wrote: »

Actually it is not an issue at all. To get back to the OPs question, one card SF could have played more forcefully than the other parties in the past was the UI card. But that is now eaten bread. The mechanism to bring that about has been agreed. Whether SF are a small party or a slightly less small party after the next GE will have no impact on the timetable of events of that particular foolish project.

It is an issue for me anyway. I follow pretty closely what goes on on this island, SF are a huge part of it.

Thats right, get the digs in "foolish project"

lugha · 21-01-2011 02:04AM

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

It is an issue for me anyway. I follow pretty closely what goes on on this island, SF are a huge part of it.

It may be an issue for many people. But it is not a "live" one, that was my point. It is a resolved issue. Voting for SF will not bring a UI one day closer. Once a majority in the North are in favour, it will happen soon after.

Liam Byrne · 21-01-2011 02:07AM

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

They have done all that with the RUC. Yet the unionists seem satisfied that SF support the PSNI. If SF support the PSNI they deffo support AGS.

The Unionists are also satisfied with the North being part of the UK, so I don't think we'll use them as a benchmark, somehow.

Whatever criteria they use is up to them; whatever criteria I use is up to me.

SF are an all Ireland party, thats a huge factor in deciding to vote for them or not.

It's completely irrelevant to me; why should that single issue override everything else?

Anyway, I've said why I can't vote for them, so I'll leave the thread to let other contributors give their opinions. No point hogging it or re-hashing old ground.

Nehaxak · 21-01-2011 04:35AM

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Safe to say that some unacceptable fairly recent activities and double-standards keep them off my possibility list.

As if they were ever on your possibility list. Who are you trying to fool :rolleyes:

outandabout · 21-01-2011 10:07AM

I won't vote Sinn Fein because I don't think they've matured fully as a political party yet.

Maybe in five to ten years time...

danbohan · 21-01-2011 10:12AM

outandabout wrote: »

I won't vote Sinn Fein because I don't think they've matured fully as a political party yet.

Maybe in five to ten years time...

you mean when they are as mature as fianna fail are now ? , right got you !

Tipp Man · 21-01-2011 10:33AM

I have absolutely zero respect for them as a party - a sitting TD collecting people who killed a Garda is abscene

I disagree fundamentally with 99% of the "economic" policies (a phrase i use very lightly in their case)

I can't actually think of any possible situation which would make me even consider voting for them - ever

Wide Road · 21-01-2011 10:42AM

Tipp Man wrote: »

I have absolutely zero respect for them as a party - a sitting TD collecting people who killed a Garda is abscene

I disagree fundamentally with 99% of the "economic" policies (a phrase i use very lightly in their case)

I can't actually think of any possible situation which would make me even consider voting for them - ever

I agree with a lot of what you say (fellow) Tipp Man, but doesn't it sound silly that our govt are happy with Sinn Fein in power up north but not down south.

Monty Burnz · 21-01-2011 10:50AM

feicim wrote: »

So anyone who disagrees with a Shinner... gets knee capped?

This, truly, is nonsense.

Well obviously they don't kneecap everyone who disagrees with them, but if you're unlucky they will do worse, like gut you so that your bowels are spilling onto the street like Robert McCartney, or execute you with a shot to the back of the head like Jim Curran. Incidentally, have the Shinners who murdered Robert McCartney been brought to justice yet? If not, why not?

feicim wrote: »

Irish voters haven't got a clue - hence Fianna Fail being voted in time and time again and destroying the country.

This part I agree with.

Why the disregard of Sinn Féin?

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