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Yet another school shooting in the USA

2

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86,683 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    OisinT wrote: »
    Hang on now, you can't pretend to know the "legislative intent" of the 2nd Amendment. The only people that can know that are the writers of the Constitution.

    http://www.guncite.com/gc2ndfqu.html

    We established however some, although not all its [self-government] important principles . The constitutions of most of our States assert, that all power is inherent in the people; that they may exercise it by themselves, in all cases to which they think themselves competent, (as in electing their functionaries executive and legislative, and deciding by a jury of themselves, in all judiciary cases in which any fact is involved,) or they may act by representatives, freely and equally chosen; that it is their right and duty to be at all times armed;
    ---Thomas Jefferson to John Cartwright, 1824. Memorial Edition 16:45, Lipscomb and Bergh, editors.

    They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.
    ---Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759.

    To model our political system upon speculations of lasting tranquility, is to calculate on the weaker springs of the human character.
    ---Alexander Hamilton

    Before a standing army can rule, the people must be disarmed; as they are in almost every kingdom in Europe. The supreme power in America cannot enforce unjust laws by the sword; because the whole body of the people are armed, and constitute a force superior to any band of regular troops that can be, on any pretence, raised in the United States. A military force, at the command of Congress, can execute no laws, but such as the people perceive to be just and constitutional; for they will possess the power, and jealousy will instantly inspire the inclination, to resist the execution of a law which appears to them unjust and oppressive.
    ---Noah Webster, An Examination of the Leading Principles of the Federal Constitution (Philadelphia 1787).

    Many more inside the link.
    There are many methods of interpreting the 2nd Amendment and as I've pointed out elsewhere most Constitutional scholars that interpret that rely on one of 2 methods: historical interpretation or "living" interpretation.
    Historical interpretations would take it to mean that the people have a right to form a well regulated militia and that militia has the right to keep and bear arms. That is, the People have the said right to keep and bear arms in order to form a well regulated (that is there is some form of oversight) militia.

    Others believe that it must be looked at in a modern context... but even then, it's hard to see how it can be interpreted to mean that you can keep and bear arms without the requisite militia membership.
    That's one of the main reasons the 2nd Amendment is oft misquoted as merely "the right to bear arms".

    Yep, I am the legal discussion moderator and if you really want to challenge me on constitutional interpretation of the US Constitution or Bunreacht na hÉireann I'd be glad to go there :o
    Ha :)

    I see your point about the regulated militia however I believe that constitutes the gun lobbies and the NRA and such, the gun vendors, etc. and it is the case in most states that your firearm be licensed and/or registered. And many gun owners freely choose to take membership in organizations, like the NRA, which promote gun safety but also gun liberties.
    I'm sure a school shoot up would happen here too if guns were so easy to come by.
    Never been shot with an airsoft in the handball alleys then? I agree, Ireland has fewer guns and poorer access to guns and enjoys fewer gun related incidents but it's a double-edged sword shield that prevents the people from having much sway against the appointed government which having disarmed it's constituents finds no critical need to keep it's people happy other than to collect fatter paychecks. Whereas is the case elsewhere, the leaders have to take into consideration just how violent the population can become when real civil unrest occurs, and I'm not talking about the student protest which was a tame joke in comparison to real riots that occur around the world.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 23,315 ✭✭✭✭amacachi


    OisinT wrote: »
    Just goes to show that the USA really needs better and stricter gun control

    Three injured? Pfft. We need better knife control in that case. http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/0410/drogheda.html


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,638 ✭✭✭PeakOutput


    They're saying it was an accidental shooting and that the gun went off when he dropped his school bag. It wouldn't happen here, because it's not exactly easy for a 16year old to get a gun into their possession.
    I'm sure a school shoot up would happen here too if guns were so easy to come by.

    good to hear that this was an accident and not another maniac

    when was the last school shooting in canada? their gun crime problem is a symptom of a societal problem and access to guns is not the cause, that is for sure

    i know plenty of teenagers with gun licences and access to guns. if your from a rural area its not very difficult at all.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,895 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manic Moran


    RichieC wrote: »
    seems rather ridiculous though, I'm sure as much damage can be done with semi auto ar 15 and could be done with a full auto military ar15 :/

    Oddly enough, it's been noted that the anti-gun types have been flip-flopping on the issue. On the one hand, you'll see them going on about how machineguns should be banned because they spray bullets and are very dangerous, on the other hand, you'll also see them targetting semi-autos because, unlike machineguns which spray bullets, a semi-auto allows accurate, precise shooting.
    Seems from quick scanning of the legislation and otherwise that you need a federal permit from the ATF?

    For full-auto, correct.

    NTM


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,331 ✭✭✭RichieC


    Oddly enough, it's been noted that the anti-gun types have been flip-flopping on the issue. On the one hand, you'll see them going on about how machineguns should be banned because they spray bullets and are very dangerous, on the other hand, you'll also see them targetting semi-autos because, unlike machineguns which spray bullets, a semi-auto allows accurate, precise shooting.



    For full-auto, correct.

    NTM

    Would full autos not have 2 firing modes anyway?


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 23,315 ✭✭✭✭amacachi


    Overheal wrote: »
    Never been shot with an airsoft in the handball alleys then?

    Seriously?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86,683 ✭✭✭✭Overheal




  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,038 ✭✭✭jackiebaron


    The gun-nut apologists will always bring up some lame excuse as to why gun control should be restricted. The only people on this Earth who need to hunt for food are indigenous people like the Innuit or tribespeople in south America, Africa and Asia.
    If some insecure, inadequate clown in the US can shell out thousands for a Bushmaster rifle with state of the art scope and outdoor apparel then the idiot can afford to buy food rather than shoot a buck deer to make himself feel hard.

    As for other weapons like 9 millimetre pistols, assault rifles and things like machine guns.....what are people owning these for? They are not for hunting. They are designed to kill people. So why are they available? Again the gun-nut apologists will argue that it's their right to "defend their house and home" (!!) like we're all lining up to come over and steal your fücking tupperware and chard. Idiots. Get a dog and put an alarm on your trailer you cretinous rednecks.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,943 ✭✭✭✭the purple tin


    Just noticed a link at the top of the site advertising tasers for sale:confused:
    Are they not classed as firearms in Ireland?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,638 ✭✭✭PeakOutput


    The gun-nut apologists will always bring up some lame excuse as to why gun control should be restricted. The only people on this Earth who need to hunt for food are indigenous people like the Innuit or tribespeople in south America, Africa and Asia.
    If some insecure, inadequate clown in the US can shell out thousands for a Bushmaster rifle with state of the art scope and outdoor apparel then the idiot can afford to buy food rather than shoot a buck deer to make himself feel hard.

    As for other weapons like 9 millimetre pistols, assault rifles and things like machine guns.....what are people owning these for? They are not for hunting. They are designed to kill people. So why are they available? Again the gun-nut apologists will argue that it's their right to "defend their house and home" (!!) like we're all lining up to come over and steal your fücking tupperware and chard. Idiots. Get a dog and put an alarm on your trailer you cretinous rednecks.

    wow your not prejudice at all :rolleyes:

    who said anything about need? if someone wants to go hunting they should be allowed to

    if someone wants to compete in competition shooting they should be allowed to

    if someone just likes being on the range and shooting targets they should be allowed to. need dosnt come into really


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,925 ✭✭✭th3 s1aught3r


    OisinT wrote: »

    Just goes to show that the USA really needs better and stricter gun control

    When did you arrive at this conclusion ? Been obvious for years I would imagine :rolleyes:


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,331 ✭✭✭RichieC


    An american friend just told me it was an accidental discharge after a bag with a gun in it was slammed onto the table :/

    eta: it doesnt sidestep the gun control issue but "kid dressed in black shoots 3 people" is poor reporting if my friends story is accurate.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,396 ✭✭✭✭FreudianSlippers


    PeakOutput wrote: »
    nope, it really dosnt

    what it shows is that crazy people will kill innocent people, how they do it is largely irrelevant to both them and the dead people

    i might aswell just quote myself from a thread in us politics instead of typing it all out again, its not like anyone ever listens anyway people who like to blame guns instead of people will always blame the guns
    if it was a direct cause then the country with the fewest guns would have the fewest deaths, but it dosnt.

    Your statement is a fallacy actually. What you're saying is essentially: If guns are responsible for deaths then the country with the fewest guns should have the fewest deaths. The country with the fewest guns does not have the fewest deaths, therefore guns are not responsible for deaths.

    That's denying the antecedent.

    You need to look at the correlation between gun law strictness and gun deaths.
    From a quick search Japan and Greece seem to have the strictest gun laws - I'm using the most up-to-date data I can find on the google :P

    Greece has 0.59 firearm homicides per 100,000, Japan has 0.02 per 100,000... even Ireland at 0.03 per 100,000.

    Compare that with 7.07 per 100,000 in the US, 74.57 per 100,000 in South Africa, 9.88 per 100,00 in Mexico


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86,683 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    Just noticed a link at the top of the site advertising tasers for sale:confused:
    Are they not classed as firearms in Ireland?
    Google adsense doesn't care, but i imagine it would link you to a foreign website where the sale of tasers is permitted.
    Your statement is a fallacy actually. What you're saying is essentially: If guns are responsible for deaths then the country with the fewest guns should have the fewest deaths. The country with the fewest guns does not have the fewest deaths, therefore guns are not responsible for deaths.

    That's denying the antecedent.

    You need to look at the correlation between gun law strictness and gun deaths.
    From a quick search Japan and Greece seem to have the strictest gun laws - I'm using the most up-to-date data I can find on the google

    Greece has 0.59 firearm homicides per 100,000, Japan has 0.02 per 100,000... even Ireland at 0.03 per 100,000.

    Compare that with 7.07 per 100,000 in the US, 74.57 per 100,000 in South Africa, 9.88 per 100,00 in Mexico
    Personally I concede that those figures do correlate, that Ireland and Japan have fewer instances of violence because of bans and whatever, but, I still subscribe to the idea that the right to own weapons is necessary to the protection of a free state.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,676 ✭✭✭dr gonzo


    California has some of the strictest gun control in the Union. Doesn't seem to have helped here.
    NTM

    Is this actually true because i got a Californian NRA pistol certificate in an afternoon and had i had a Californian drivers licence at the time i could have gotten a gun, or so i was told?

    Is this correct because if it is thats not exactly strict


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,638 ✭✭✭PeakOutput


    OisinT wrote: »
    Your statement is a fallacy actually. What you're saying is essentially: If guns are responsible for deaths then the country with the fewest guns should have the fewest deaths. The country with the fewest guns does not have the fewest deaths, therefore guns are not responsible for deaths.

    fewest gun deaths is obviously what i meant

    You need to look at the correlation between gun law strictness and gun deaths.

    i would argue that what is important is comparing the amount of deaths by guns to the amounts of deaths by illegally held guns

    From a quick search Japan and Greece seem to have the strictest gun laws - I'm using the most up-to-date data I can find on the google :P
    Greece has 0.59 firearm homicides per 100,000, Japan has 0.02 per 100,000... even Ireland at 0.03 per 100,000.

    Compare that with 7.07 per 100,000 in the US, 74.57 per 100,000 in South Africa, 9.88 per 100,00 in Mexico

    this was all debated over in the other thread. if you look at countries that dont have high gun ownership rates (ie take out america and canada from the data) then the ownership rate is not correlated to the death rate by guns it fluctuates too much


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86,683 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    dr gonzo wrote: »
    Is this actually true because i got a Californian NRA pistol certificate in an afternoon and had i had a Californian drivers licence at the time i could have gotten a gun, or so i was told?

    Is this correct because if it is thats not exactly strict
    After a waiting period and background check.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,396 ✭✭✭✭FreudianSlippers


    Overheal wrote: »
    http://www.guncite.com/gc2ndfqu.html

    We established however some, although not all its [self-government] important principles . The constitutions of most of our States assert, that all power is inherent in the people; that they may exercise it by themselves, in all cases to which they think themselves competent, (as in electing their functionaries executive and legislative, and deciding by a jury of themselves, in all judiciary cases in which any fact is involved,) or they may act by representatives, freely and equally chosen; that it is their right and duty to be at all times armed;
    ---Thomas Jefferson to John Cartwright, 1824. Memorial Edition 16:45, Lipscomb and Bergh, editors.
    Interesting one. I'd imagine you'd really want an English professor's view on this comment. IMO the semicolon sare being used as parenthetic commas. That is that the "that it is their right and duty to be at all times armed" is not necessarily pertaining to the preceding statement - rather a list of rights and responsibilities thrust upon each state.

    They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.
    ---Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759.
    I'm not really sure of exactly how this promotes the viewpoint.
    To model our political system upon speculations of lasting tranquility, is to calculate on the weaker springs of the human character.
    ---Alexander Hamilton
    Quite an interesting statement... clearly true. It still would bring me back to the militia statement though.
    Before a standing army can rule, the people must be disarmed; as they are in almost every kingdom in Europe. The supreme power in America cannot enforce unjust laws by the sword; because the whole body of the people are armed, and constitute a force superior to any band of regular troops that can be, on any pretence, raised in the United States. A military force, at the command of Congress, can execute no laws, but such as the people perceive to be just and constitutional; for they will possess the power, and jealousy will instantly inspire the inclination, to resist the execution of a law which appears to them unjust and oppressive.
    ---Noah Webster, An Examination of the Leading Principles of the Federal Constitution (Philadelphia 1787).
    I would suggest that if this were to be the case then the US should return to its roots of isolationism, disband the Army and the National Guard ought to be the main force.

    I see your point about the regulated militia however I believe that constitutes the gun lobbies and the NRA and such, the gun vendors, etc. and it is the case in most states that your firearm be licensed and/or registered. And many gun owners freely choose to take membership in organizations, like the NRA, which promote gun safety but also gun liberties.Never been shot with an airsoft in the handball alleys then? I agree, Ireland has fewer guns and poorer access to guns and enjoys fewer gun related incidents but it's a double-edged sword shield that prevents the people from having much sway against the appointed government which having disarmed it's constituents finds no critical need to keep it's people happy other than to collect fatter paychecks. Whereas is the case elsewhere, the leaders have to take into consideration just how violent the population can become when real civil unrest occurs, and I'm not talking about the student protest which was a tame joke in comparison to real riots that occur around the world.

    I think that point digresses slightly so I'll make this point.
    There are many ways to interpret a Constitution, especially an old one. The quotes above do little but to prove that point. Do you take these words as they meant then in context?

    I think to understand my point it's important to highlight the different types of interpretive methods:
    • Originalism: These believe in the original meaning and intent of the wording. No new values or interpretations are put on the words... they are not put into modern context. Often called "strict Constitutionalism"
      1. The 'original intent theory,' which holds that interpretation of a written constitution is (or should be) consistent with what was meant by those who drafted and ratified it.
      2. The 'original meaning theory,' which is closely related to textualism, is the view that interpretation of a written constitution or law should be based on what reasonable persons living at the time of its adoption would have declared the ordinary meaning of the text to be.
    • Living Constitution: puts a dynamic meaning into the document. It essentially imputes humanism on the document and the idea that it and its meaning change with time. The idea is associated with views that contemporaneous society should be taken into account when interpreting key constitutional phrases.
      1. The pragmatist view contends that interpreting the Constitution in accordance with long outdated views is often unacceptable as a policy matter, and thus that an evolving interpretation is necessary.
      2. The second school under this category is intent. This is the contention that the authors of the Constitution specifically wrote it with the intent of it being a "living document" and thus wrote it in broad and flexible terms.
    • Moral Constitution: Not as popular outside of academic circles, but often comes up when considering Bunreacht na hÉireann. It's the idea that there is an underlying foundation of moral philosophy in the Constitution.
      1. Religious morals
      2. Moral principles - i.e. humanism


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,396 ✭✭✭✭FreudianSlippers


    PeakOutput wrote: »
    fewest gun deaths is obviously what i meant




    i would argue that what is important is comparing the amount of deaths by guns to the amounts of deaths by illegally held guns

    From a quick search Japan and Greece seem to have the strictest gun laws - I'm using the most up-to-date data I can find on the google :P



    this was all debated over in the other thread. if you look at countries that dont have high gun ownership rates (ie take out america and canada from the data) then the ownership rate is not correlated to the death rate by guns it fluctuates too much
    Therefore the point is proven that it is not ownership of guns, it is strictness of legislation.

    I never said Japan and Greece had the least amount of guns (legally held or otherwise), merely that they had the strictest gun laws.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,638 ✭✭✭PeakOutput


    OisinT wrote: »
    Therefore the point is proven that it is not ownership of guns, it is strictness of legislation.

    I never said Japan and Greece had the least amount of guns (legally held or otherwise), merely that they had the strictest gun laws.

    gun regulation doesnt affect illegally held guns, those people are already willing to break the law new laws arent going to make any difference


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 24,608 ✭✭✭✭arybvtcw0eolkf


    OisinT wrote: »

    Why the fúck does John Q. Public need to own an AK-47?

    Reminds me of the joke....

    Man walks into a gun store in the USA..

    "I wanna buy an AK 47 to shot at can's please" says Mr.J.Q.Public..

    "CAN'S... What kinda can's sir?" asks the store owner...

    "Ya know.. Afri-CAN's, Mexi-CAN's & Puerto Ri-CAN's!!!"..

    :pac:


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 554 ✭✭✭BASHIR


    This picture portrays gun culture in America brilliantly. Its from the Heckler&Koch
    website (a major firearms manufacturer) . It made me laugh anyway :D


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,396 ✭✭✭✭FreudianSlippers


    PeakOutput wrote: »
    gun regulation doesnt affect illegally held guns, those people are already willing to break the law new laws arent going to make any difference
    Yeah, but I don't see how you think that proves your point.

    Countries with strict gun laws still have illegal guns... the death rate is still lower.
    You want to see the percentage of the number of firearm deaths broken into legally owned and illegally owned?

    It could be 1% and 99% either way, but 100% of 0.02 is a hell of a lot lower than 100% of 7.07.
    I'm sure it makes shít all difference to the guy who died if the gun was legal or not.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 23,315 ✭✭✭✭amacachi


    Overheal wrote: »
    I see your point about the regulated militia however I believe that constitutes the gun lobbies and the NRA and such, the gun vendors, etc. and it is the case in most states that your firearm be licensed and/or registered. And many gun owners freely choose to take membership in organizations, like the NRA, which promote gun safety but also gun liberties.Never been shot with an airsoft in the handball alleys then? I agree, Ireland has fewer guns and poorer access to guns and enjoys fewer gun related incidents but it's a double-edged sword shield that prevents the people from having much sway against the appointed government which having disarmed it's constituents finds no critical need to keep it's people happy other than to collect fatter paychecks. Whereas is the case elsewhere, the leaders have to take into consideration just how violent the population can become when real civil unrest occurs, and I'm not talking about the student protest which was a tame joke in comparison to real riots that occur around the world.
    I'm not trying to be facetious here but with that logic and supporting that idea what's the problem with seeing an elected official or similar getting shot? I'm not trying to troll but I really don't see how you can believe what you say there and then go on to complain about someone who acts on it.
    OisinT wrote: »
    Greece has 0.59 firearm homicides per 100,000, Japan has 0.02 per 100,000... even Ireland at 0.03 per 100,000.

    Compare that with 7.07 per 100,000 in the US, 74.57 per 100,000 in South Africa, 9.88 per 100,00 in Mexico
    0.03 per 100,000 in Ireland would mean ~1.3 killings per year with guns, somehow I think that's incorrect.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,396 ✭✭✭✭FreudianSlippers


    amacachi wrote: »
    I'm not trying to be facetious here but with that logic and supporting that idea what's the problem with seeing an elected official or similar getting shot? I'm not trying to troll but I really don't see how you can believe what you say there and then go on to complain about someone who acts on it.

    0.03 per 100,000 in Ireland would mean ~1.3 killings per year with guns, somehow I think that's incorrect.
    IDK... this is the best and most recent source I could find for Ireland: http://ije.oxfordjournals.org/content/27/2/214.full.pdf


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 27,856 ✭✭✭✭Dave!




    Let's see how the media performs this time...


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,895 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manic Moran


    OisinT wrote: »
    I never said Japan and Greece had the least amount of guns (legally held or otherwise), merely that they had the strictest gun laws.

    You've obviously never been to Crete. I actually can't think of a place in Europe with less restrictive firearms laws. Even in Switzerland, where the government gives you assault rifles to keep at home, firing machineguns at a wedding is generally frowned upon. Standard practice in that part of Greece.
    They are not for hunting. They are designed to kill people. So why are they available?

    To kill people?

    At least, that's why I have them. The vast majority of firearms owners in the US are not hunters. Firearms are a very good way of protecting yourself, I have as yet to find anything as effective, and that's why they're so popular for the job.
    I'm sure it makes shít all difference to the guy who died if the gun was legal or not.

    On the other hand, it makes a lot of difference to the shooter. Especially if it was a legally owned weapon used legally.

    NTM


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,638 ✭✭✭PeakOutput


    OisinT wrote: »
    Yeah, but I don't see how you think that proves your point.

    Countries with strict gun laws still have illegal guns... the death rate is still lower.
    You want to see the percentage of the number of firearm deaths broken into legally owned and illegally owned?

    It could be 1% and 99% either way, but 100% of 0.02 is a hell of a lot lower than 100% of 7.07.
    I'm sure it makes shít all difference to the guy who died if the gun was legal or not.

    it makes a difference because if 99% of all gun deaths are as a result of illegal guns then new gun laws wont make a shred of difference

    also i havnt seen any stats that show a link with strict gun laws and gun deaths but if someone has a link to that study then im all ears/eyes, whatever

    in my observation, there appears to be, very roughly, 3 types of gun deaths in the states, besides accidental

    gangland / crime related

    white collar type shootings, crimes of passion / spur of the moment

    and the crazy mass killings (school shootings etc)

    now being a criminal is obviously a reason not to give anyone a gun and if they are giving out guns and licences to felons then i agree that should be stopped but as i said criminals will break the law

    the second type wouldnt be stopped by stricter laws as those people are normal until something happens that makes them snap so they wouldnt be flagged and refused a licence

    the third type might have psychiatric history and therefore shouldnt be allowed access to guns obviously but they might not and in that case they are the same as the second group

    so i really dont see how stricter gun, besides an outright ban, will affect anything


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 23,315 ✭✭✭✭amacachi


    OisinT wrote: »
    IDK... this is the best and most recent source I could find for Ireland: http://ije.oxfordjournals.org/content/27/2/214.full.pdf

    Ignore the headline, it's wrong and shows a basic lack of competency with statistics, poor poor journalism. http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2010/0517/1224270550474.html

    I make it about 0.4 per 100,000 in 2008 which translates to about 14-15, still seems low to me.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,396 ✭✭✭✭FreudianSlippers


    also i havnt seen any stats that show a link with strict gun laws and gun deaths but if someone has a link to that study then im all ears/eyes, whatever
    That's what I posted earlier... and the link a few posts later. It's all freely available all over the internet. Literally 10 mins searching and I got that very information.


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