Why does the Irish Education system force me to learn subjects that I wont need for m

iheartthailand · 18-01-2011 02:34AM

MultiUmm wrote: »

Because they did in my school? A European language is a requirement to do almost any if not every university course, the vast majority of people intend to go to university so most picked French or German, while those who picked neither do geography. I'm using this as an actual example of my own year, not an abstract thought.

I'm just using my own school as an example. Maybe it's different in other schools, but either way if you don't do a language you automatically have to do geography while the rest of the year does French/ German. My point was is that it eliminates the choice factor either way.

As far as I know it'd only the larger universities that require a foreign language? Im alson saying this is a ridiculous rule... that if you want to study say botany or nursing that you need a language. I went to ucd but my course didnt require a foreign language but i had to do it in school anyways! What Im trying to say is if they treated french as a choice subject just like economics, chemisty, history, music etc and universities didnt insist on the need for it, then you wouldnt be forced to do geography (as it was in your case). you could study a subject that you wanted to study and that could benefit you more.

johnmcdnl · 18-01-2011 05:28AM

Am I the only person who's Irish is pretty damn good and my French is deplorable...

Logical Fallacy wrote: »

Look, if you can't wrap your head around languages at a secondary school level you haven't a ****ing hope of getting college level physics.

Yeah that's complete ****e tbh - languages require learning off not understanding - there's no understanding in that bonjour means hello in French... that's just memory skills as I'm sure you'll agree with me...

Dunno what they teach exactly in college physics but I'm sure it's more about understanding and not remembering what the past particle of the verb etre is..

I used to be pretty good at all the science subjects in school but couldn't ever get my head around french because it was notoriously boring and memorising and reciting stuff that I had no interest in was boring as ****..
Leaving Cert physics was pretty straight forward for me though because it was pure simple to understand in my mind so I'm assuming that just because I was terrible at French is school and couldn't get my head around it i'd be terrible in college physics (lets just not mention me finding physics easy to understand which may actually be a valid point in how good I could expect myself to be in a college physics course)

Killer Pigeon · 18-01-2011 07:04AM

johnmcdnl wrote: »

Am I the only person who's Irish is pretty damn good and my French is deplorable...

Yeah that's complete ****e tbh - languages require learning off not understanding - there's no understanding in that bonjour means hello in French... that's just memory skills as I'm sure you'll agree with me...

Dunno what they teach exactly in college physics but I'm sure it's more about understanding and not remembering what the past particle of the verb etre is..

I used to be pretty good at all the science subjects in school but couldn't ever get my head around french because it was notoriously boring and memorising and reciting stuff that I had no interest in was boring as ****..
Leaving Cert physics was pretty straight forward for me though because it was pure simple to understand in my mind so I'm assuming that just because I was terrible at French is school and couldn't get my head around it i'd be terrible in college physics (lets just not mention me finding physics easy to understand which may actually be a valid point in how good I could expect myself to be in a college physics course)

To understand physics you need to understand logic and maths (sometimes the logic part of physics can be quite hard to get a grasp on). A physics degree is basically 2/3 of a maths degree (believe me I'm doing one). Last semester I did 2 applied maths courses, two pure maths courses and 2 physics courses.

Just because someone doesn't understand languages doesn't mean they won't understand physics ... that's absurd. There are a lot of people on my course who say they were absolutely hopeless at Irish and French, some people even said their English spelling and grammar wasn't top notch either. A majority, however, were better at maths and science subjects (this including myself) in school.

I really don't understand why foreign languages are essential for matriculation in a majority of Irish universities for maths, science and engineering degrees. I think in the UK system you only need English for such courses.

In the long run, however, it would be a good idea to learn an extra language. Physicists in industry and academia would do quite a lot of traveling, simply because their aren't many physics related jobs in Ireland (however with a physics degree it's possible to cross over into IT and even finance so it's not a totally useless degree). Either French or German would be useful (Germany, of course, is the home of modern physics).

TeddyTedson · 18-01-2011 07:11AM

Killer Pigeon wrote: »

To understand physics you need to understand logic and maths (sometimes the logic part of physics can be quite hard to get a grasp on). A physics degree is basically 2/3 of a maths degree (believe me I'm doing one). Last semester I did 2 applied maths courses, two pure maths courses and 2 physics courses.

Just because someone doesn't understand languages doesn't mean they won't understand physics ... that's absurd. There are a lot of people on my course who say they were absolutely hopeless at Irish and French, some people even said their English spelling and grammar wasn't top notch either. A majority, however, were better at maths and science subjects (this including myself) in school.

I really don't understand why foreign languages are essential for matriculation in a majority of Irish universities for maths, science and engineering degrees. I think in the UK system you only need English for such courses.

In the long run, however, it would be a good idea to learn an extra language. Physicists in industry and academia would do quite a lot of traveling, simply because their aren't many physics related jobs in Ireland (however with a physics degree it's possible to cross over into IT and even finance so it's not a totally useless degree). Either French or German would be useful (Germany, of course, is the home of modern physics).

Everyone should be near fluent in another language I think, such as German. A lot of engineering equipment is made by the likes of Siemens for example. To be honest I think German is one language that isn't offered in enough secondary schools. It and Spanish.

bob the bob · 18-01-2011 08:24AM

Free or near enough free education is a gift. You will realise that some day no doubt.

Millions of people going to night classes after working all day to learn a language, doing homework at the weekend after the kids have gone to bed.

You have a gift in your hands with your education.

jimthemental · 18-01-2011 10:02AM

MultiUmm wrote: »

Probably because you learned French in a more practical way whereas learning poetry answers off by heart for Irish left you with little idea of how to hold a proper conversation. If the department never make it optional they should at least change the curriculum so that it's less full of complete horse shít.

Our teacher was so crap that we went into the pass paper not even knowing we were supposed to know about poems, in fairness maybe we should of had a look at past papers but he could have given us a heads up.

u140acro3xs7dm · 18-01-2011 10:09AM

feelingstressed wrote: »

What if you're a brilliant physicist and get recruited by CERN in Switzerland, the languages will be handy then

There is a fair chance you'll be emigrating anyway when you finish up

A lot of the big science companies use English as their official working language. I presume its because a lot of Asians would be employees and very few of them would be French or German speakers but probably have English.

thisisadamh · 18-01-2011 10:12AM

MultiUmm wrote: »

Where in OP's post did he/she say that they were completely useless at languages? OP said they hate doing languages, not that they're bad at them. There is a difference, no need to berate the OP.

Thank you

you have it spot on. I can do them but I just hate doing them.

prinz · 18-01-2011 10:46AM

If I had my way OP you'd be doing them in primary school. Consider yourself lucky.

I was never hugely interested in science subjects either but ended up doing physics and chemistry to Leaving Cert because of how the timetable/clash of teachers worked out. I could look back on that and say 'time wasted' boohoohoo and when am I ever going to need that? You know what - I'm glad I did them now. It's called broadening your horizons.

The Irish system is f*cked enough as it is because there is so much emphasis on doing x,y and z to get such and such a course, or only doing the bare minimum to pass exams etc.

the_syco · 18-01-2011 10:48AM

iheartthailand wrote: »

People say you dont know what you'll want when you leave school, in that case should they stop someone from studying say, business, economics and accounting. Should they be forced to study a science subject?

Yes. They may find a section in it that they excel at and enjoy. Are you saying that they should only be taught subjects that relate to a job that they thought they'd do when they were 8 years old?

18-01-2011 10:50AM

Life doesn't always work out the way you expect and all your intentions may mean nothing, especially if you get to college and realise you absolutely hate physics.
A broad education with just enough in-depth cover is a blessing, I'm only glad we don't specialise as much as other places.
All that said, the system does need some reform. Much as I love irish, I think it should be optional, and a european language should be taught from primary school. And it should be proper teaching. I'm doing a german class in the evening at the moment and by god is it a completely different experience to learning off tables in school. I mean, I loved languages as much as maths in school, but they need to be taught properly. And to higher standards. Leaving cert was becoming much too easy and grade-inflated when I was doing it, e.g. in french and in maths

Lumen · 18-01-2011 10:58AM

Logical Fallacy wrote: »

Look, if you can't wrap your head around languages at a secondary school level you haven't a ****ing hope of getting college level physics.

Planck!

I know several physicists who are hopeless at languages.

the groutch · 18-01-2011 11:30AM

it's okay for primary school to get the basics, possibly the junior cert.
but nobody should be forced to do any specific subject for the leaving cert.
that's why the CAO system is so f***ed up, giving people places in colleges based on their abilities on subjects that

1. they want to do
2. they will probably never use again
3. have nothing at all to do with the college courses they're applying for

at least the english have got it right with their A Levels, where the students are allowed to handpick a smaller number of subject that THEY WANT to study

Davidius · 18-01-2011 11:52AM

I remember taking Leaving Cert French working under the assumption that I'd need it for matriculation. Then I found out that I didn't when it was much too late, not sure if they dropped the European language requirement after I started senior cycle though.

I don't mind the Leaving Cert being geared toward a broader education but I'm doubtful universities adding a pass at ordinary level in a language for any science or engineering courses really benefits anybody. Seems to me all that happens is you force people to waste time doing something they couldn't give a damn about. Which I suppose is relevant to the working world in a way.

I spent plenty of boring hours in French classes and doing the bare minimum in homework so the teacher wouldn't give out to me. It's only been about a year and a half since I did my Leaving and I barely remember a word of it. At this stage I probably know only slightly more French than I do German, a subject I've never even studied.

RachaelVO · 18-01-2011 12:03PM

Mostly people give out about having to learn the Irish language. Which is not particularly something I dislike. Why shouldn't we learn our own culture.

However, why is it as native English speakers we expect the world to learn our language and us not theirs. I speak English and Dutch. My husband is Dutch and has word perfetct English. Infact he now speaks English with a fairly strong Irish brogue and uses all the Irishisms (gob****e, whats de craic...)

Our children are both bilingual, and the will pick up languages very easily as a result, this gives them so many opportunities all over the world, not just in "english speaking" countries.

Well OP, the funny thing is, you want to do physics, and you don't see the need for a language. Most physics terminology is derived from either greek or latin and has to be so to include physicists from all over the world. You're gonna be learning somthing anyway, so why not just embrace your chances, all of our forefathers fought and died for you to have the right to the wear crown of education, so wear it well!

mconigol · 18-01-2011 12:05PM

It wouldn't be so bad if you were taught how to speak languages like native speakers but instead you learn strict grammar and read poetry. Drop off all the kids in France to fend for themselves for 6 months I say...

Logical Fallacy · 18-01-2011 12:06PM

iheartthailand wrote: »

Thats a ridiculous comment and incorrect.

Learn about Comparative Difficulty, which is something colleges use to decide the relevant area's of aptitude in the LC for likely success in a college course and come back to me.

deise go deo · 18-01-2011 12:25PM

johnmcdnl wrote: »

Am I the only person who's Irish is pretty damn good and my French is deplorable...

No, My Irish is fairly good, I dropped French after the JC and now cant say anything(Nevermind anything coherent) in the language.

I got into Uni because they took Irish as a second language rather than requiring a foreign language.:)

deise go deo · 18-01-2011 12:32PM

RachaelVO wrote: »

Mostly people give out about having to learn the Irish language. Which is not particularly something I dislike. Why shouldn't we learn our own culture.

Well that is an interesting point, Of the polls I have seen on the issue(from 2005), it seams that the overall majority are against compulsion but interestingly the younger people are more in favor of it, 52% of 18 - 34 year olds were in favor of it in one poll, and in another 65% of 15 - 24 year olds were in favor of compulsory Irish.

A shift in attitudes over time perhaps?

Monty Burnz · 18-01-2011 12:37PM

thisisadamh wrote: »

A friend and I have been talking recently and we think it is stupid that we have to learn subjects that we dont need for university. For example, 3 languages??? For a course in Physics? 3 languages for most courses. Personally I hate learning languages, I dont intend to touch languages after the leaving cert, so why do I have to learn them and why to colleges require them for courses that have nothing to do with them?

What is everyone else's view?

Are you really learning 3 languages? Or are you learning communication skills and the ability to comprehend a text and write clearly (i.e. English) plus 2 other languages?

I'd definitely agree that 3 is too many, but the 'English' you are learning is about communication - you already know the language.

Now, whether 2 languages is too many, that's another debate

Liberalbrehon · 18-01-2011 01:01PM

Being forced to do subjects you're not interested in is crazy. I remember it with horror. Education should be about wanting to learn a subject in detail. If there was a credits based system for children it would create a much better situation all round. There is no reason why an intelligent teenager could not have a degree by the time they are 18. The junior and leaving cert are a waste of time.

You see when standards are forced instead of allowed to evolve you only create mediocrity. Imagine what some kids could achieve if they where unshackled from the irons of bureaucracy.

Also a child should not leave primary unless they can read to a good level and do basic arithmetic.

johnmcdnl · 18-01-2011 01:15PM

RachaelVO wrote: »

Mostly people give out about having to learn the Irish language. Which is not particularly something I dislike. Why shouldn't we learn our own culture.

However, why is it as native English speakers we expect the world to learn our language and us not theirs. I speak English and Dutch. My husband is Dutch and has word perfetct English. Infact he now speaks English with a fairly strong Irish brogue and uses all the Irishisms (gob****e, whats de craic...)

Our children are both bilingual, and the will pick up languages very easily as a result, this gives them so many opportunities all over the world, not just in "english speaking" countries.

Well OP, the funny thing is, you want to do physics, and you don't see the need for a language. Most physics terminology is derived from either greek or latin and has to be so to include physicists from all over the world. You're gonna be learning somthing anyway, so why not just embrace your chances, all of our forefathers fought and died for you to have the right to the wear crown of education, so wear it well!

can't you see the point here - you love languages so of course you love the current system - the OP would rather do something he thinks he a more of an interest in - ie physics, science subjects...

reverse the situation and when you were in school you were forced to do chemistry physics and biology and only got to choose one lanuage because of time constraints in the timetable...
image you want to go onto college to do linguistics or something and you were being put at this disadvantage by being forced to study subjects you have no interest in and will be of no relevance too you....

do you see the problem in the system now - i sympathise with the OP because I felt the exact same as him - I'd have loved to do chemistry or biology or basically any subject that wasn't French for my leaving cert but my school also forced all students to do french for the leaving "because "most" colleges need it so it opens options" I knew what course/field I wanted to do when I was in 5th year - I was always going into computers/engineering/science and I'm open to be corrected but none of the courses I looked at needed French as an extra subject... So basically I spent 2 years doing a subject that I didn't need or didn't like and was only doing it because I had no option but to do it... ended up scrapping a terrible mark but passing - complete waste of time for me and I would have got more points and all if I'd done a subject I'd been interested in myself...

Now you just imagine that it's you or your children that aren't allowed study french or german or spanish or whatever for their leaving cert but are forced to study PHYSICS which you child has no aptitude for at all and to rub salt in the wounds you won't ever need physics for any course or job you ever do again....

Killer Pigeon · 18-01-2011 01:25PM

johnmcdnl wrote: »

Now you just imagine that it's you or your children that aren't allowed study french or german or spanish or whatever for their leaving cert but are forced to study PHYSICS which you child has no aptitude for at all and to rub salt in the wounds you won't ever need physics for any course or job you ever do again....

Statistics prove that everyone has to abide by the laws of physics every millisecond of their lives.

pickarooney · 18-01-2011 01:29PM

thisisadamh wrote: »

*most university courses* I did not know that there was a character limit for the title

A bit of maths or the ability to express yourself succinctly would have helped you there, and that's not the kind of thing you'll find in your fancy physics books. Except maybe the maths.

dark crystal · 18-01-2011 02:16PM

I agree the emphasis on languages is largely pointless, unless you plan on travelling after leaving school. They certainly shouldn't be required to enter the larger colleges.

Personally, I would prefer to see civics, economics and computer studies more prevelant in secondary schools here, as they are much more likely to be useful to the average school leaver.

Going even further, I would like to see maths as an optional subject after the junior cert. Most people have learned enough maths by that stage to get them comfortably through life...how often does the average person use triginometry or algebra in their everyday life??
In my experience, an awful lot of people struggle with maths in school and this can really affect their points in the leaving cert. In fact, there's a case to be made for English and Irish also being optional after the junior cert too, if they are something the student feels will be of no benefit to them, either in college or in their future chosen careers.

jester77 · 18-01-2011 02:42PM

I wouldn't be where I am today if I hadn't learned languages for my leaving cert. Just like you I had zero intentions of leaving Ireland but you never know what the future may hold. The last thing you want is look back with regret. My only regret is that I didn't put in more of an effort!

prinz · 18-01-2011 03:06PM

This thread makes me sad. So many people with such a little appreciation of education, learning and expanding your own world for the sake of being a more rounded individual. There's more to life than studying w, x and y for the sake of entering z career. Life isn't a conveyor belt, people aren't computers who need to be programmed from childhood to fulfill a certain role and no other

18-01-2011 03:14PM

dark crystal wrote: »

In my experience, an awful lot of people struggle with maths in school and this can really affect their points in the leaving cert. In fact, there's a case to be made for English and Irish also being optional after the junior cert too, if they are something the student feels will be of no benefit to them, either in college or in their future chosen careers.

Eh, no there isn't - English should be given even more time!!

As for the rest of it, they're a bunch of kids. Seriously. At age 16-19 you don't know what life has in store for you. Wouldn't you hate to have to repeat the LC because you decided to change course and you couldn't because you never sat Maths/languages/whatever? Not to mention the fact education should be for the sake of education, not getting jobs.

MultiUmm · 18-01-2011 03:29PM

dark crystal wrote: »

I agree the emphasis on languages is largely pointless, unless you plan on travelling after leaving school. They certainly shouldn't be required to enter the larger colleges.

Personally, I would prefer to see civics, economics and computer studies more prevelant in secondary schools here, as they are much more likely to be useful to the average school leaver.

Going even further, I would like to see maths as an optional subject after the junior cert. Most people have learned enough maths by that stage to get them comfortably through life...how often does the average person use triginometry or algebra in their everyday life??
In my experience, an awful lot of people struggle with maths in school and this can really affect their points in the leaving cert. In fact, there's a case to be made for English and Irish also being optional after the junior cert too, if they are something the student feels will be of no benefit to them, either in college or in their future chosen careers.

I agree, civics especially should be taught as a subject at leaving cert. level, optional of course but still there. There is CSPE at junior cert. level but it's fairly basic stuff.

I'm going into 5th year next year (TY atm) and about 3/4's of my year (16-17 year old's) would seriously struggle to name more than 3 cabinet ministers, if that. As for knowing the names of the opposition, very few would have any idea. And people wonder why there's a political apathy in Ireland when my generation are more disinterested than ever ...

cackhanded · 18-01-2011 04:58PM

In the 20+ years since I left secondary school I have had occasion to use the following subjects in my working life - Maths, English, French, German, Italian, Spanish, Accounting, Economics, History, Physics, Chemistry, Business Studies, Home Economics - and a few more I can't think of right now. Obviously I didn't study all of these to Leaving Cert, nor could I have foreseen at that age that I would have any need for most of them. The most important thing I got from my schooling was a thirst for knowledge and a desire to learn.

prinz wrote: »

This thread makes me sad. So many people with such a little appreciation of education, learning and expanding your own world for the sake of being a more rounded individual. There's more to life than studying w, x and y for the sake of entering z career. Life isn't a conveyor belt, people aren't computers who need to be programmed from childhood to fulfill a certain role and no other

Couldn't agree more with this post. Unfortunately, the Irish education system (and our societies attitudes to education) encourage the complete opposite. Intensively rote learn, regurgitate as much information as possible in one exam sitting, select the college course with the best job prospects. And if at first you don't succeed, repeat until you do.

It saddens me too when I read comments such as the OP's and others in this thread - but it doesn't surprise me at all.

Why does the Irish Education system force me to learn subjects that I wont need for m

Comments