Munster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread.

Ciaran-Irl · 16-01-2011 6:48pm

Will this year's performance affect Munster's seeding for next year's HEC? Not certain where they stand.

Podge_irl · 16-01-2011 6:51pm

Ciaran-Irl wrote: »

Will this year's performance affect Munster's seeding for next year's HEC? Not certain where they stand.

They're not going to be the no.1 ranked team anymore, but I think they'll remain a top 6 seed so it won't make any material difference. Next year is their last year with 11 points from a HEC win though so they'll need a good performance next year to maintain their ranking.

ambid · 16-01-2011 8:33pm

So what are the key areas for Munster to focus their rebuilding? It seems to me they need to strengthen just a few areas to get back to the top.

front row: big problem. Buckley & Hayes are average Magners League THs at best, neither is HEC or Test level. With some scrum work the rest of the front row seems ok though.
second row: very strong. Need to develop Nagle & Foley, but POC, DOC & MOD will all be top class for another couple of years;
back row: big problem. Very weak against Toulon. Wallace & Quinlan are fading, Coughlan is average ML level. Need to work on O'Mahony & Butler.
half backs: very strong.
centre: big problem. Tuitupou is so predictable. Earls will get it back, maybe needs a new position though.
back three: very strong. Howlett, Murphy, Jones - all excellent.

So I think they just need a 3 (maybe Borlase), 6 & 7, and 12. Plus some changes to their gameplan. I don't think they're far away at all, or is that too simplistic.

What does everybody think?

TheHighRoad · 16-01-2011 8:43pm

ambid wrote: »

So what are the key areas for Munster to focus their rebuilding? It seems to me they need to strengthen just a few areas to get back to the top.
front row: big problem. Buckley & Hayes are average Magners League THs at best, neither is HEC or Test level. With some scrum work the rest of the front row seems ok though.

second row: very strong. Need to develop Nagle & Foley, but POC, DOC & MOD will all be top class for another couple of years;

back row: big problem. Very weak against Toulon. Wallace & Quinlan are fading, Coughlan is average ML level. Need to work on O'Mahony & Butler.

half backs: very strong.

centre: big problem. Tuitupou is so predictable. Earls will get it back, maybe needs a new position though.

back three: very strong. Howlett, Murphy, Jones - all excellent.

So I think they just need a 3 (maybe Borlase), 6 & 7, and 12. Plus some changes to their gameplan. I don't think they're far away at all, or is that too simplistic.

What does everybody think?

I think your underestimating the task ahead. For instance Having only Howlett, Murphy and Jones for the back 3 is not enough especially when it remains to be seen whether Jones will fully recover from such a serious injury. I think Munster need to sign a new winger/full back to be honest. They obviously need a new tighthead and should probably get someone world class after the world cup. They definitely need to sign a world class backrower to replace the likes of Quinlan and Wallace. Coughlan isnt HC standard so maybe two backrow signings might be needed. Other than that I think the only other player they need is an actual 13 who will create for them. But 3 world class signings at tighthead, backrow and 13 along with some utility signings for the back 3 and they should be set.

CouchSmart · 16-01-2011 10:12pm

To be honest it's a good time to be rebuilding. There'll be a fair few high quality southern hemisphere players floating around after the WC next year, I'm sure Munster will snap a few of them up.

Jemo · 16-01-2011 10:23pm

A good 13 to compliment Tuitopou, Keatley and Mafi at 12
a top-class tighthead,
a top class backrower (preferably and 8 and move Leamy back to 6) and
a ball playing second row is what is most needed in the team at current.

in that order

Other than that, a new coaching ticket, perhaps bringing in a director of rugby and relegating McGahan somewhat and a new forwards/scrum coach. They could get rid of some of the niq props they signed, and hopefully allow Hayes to retire.

CIARAN_BOYLE · 16-01-2011 10:31pm

Ciaran-Irl wrote: »

Will this year's performance affect Munster's seeding for next year's HEC? Not certain where they stand.

At the moment Munster are the #1 seed in europe with 29 ranking points. They have 4 points expiring since only the last 4 years are counted and Munster didn't have a good year in 06/07. If they come 2nd in the group they will gain an addition 3 ranking points.

Add an aditional ranking point for each ACC win and their number of ranking points will only grow if they do well in the Amlin.

My guess is that Munster will probably be ranked 3rd next season. so still a first seed

castie · 16-01-2011 10:36pm

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

At the moment Munster are the #1 seed in europe with 29 ranking points. They have 4 points expiring since only the last 4 years are counted and Munster didn't have a good year in 06/07. If they come 2nd in the group they will gain an addition 3 ranking points.

Add an aditional ranking point for each ACC win and their number of ranking points will only grow if they do well in the Amlin.

My guess is that Munster will probably be ranked 3rd next season. so still a first seed

Fat lot of good being first seed did us this year!

durkadurka · 16-01-2011 10:44pm

Didnt exactly give leinster an easy group either. The biggest factor is if you get an Italian team in your group. The two second place teams this year will have Italians in their group probably

RuggieBear · 16-01-2011 11:27pm

Fulton Crown banned. post deleted

Podge_irl · 16-01-2011 11:29pm

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

At the moment Munster are the #1 seed in europe with 29 ranking points. They have 4 points expiring since only the last 4 years are counted and Munster didn't have a good year in 06/07. If they come 2nd in the group they will gain an addition 3 ranking points.

Add an aditional ranking point for each ACC win and their number of ranking points will only grow if they do well in the Amlin.

My guess is that Munster will probably be ranked 3rd next season. so still a first seed

Forgot about the Amlin adding to their ranking points. They will, at worst, lose one ranking point for next year. Toulouse and Leinster are the only ones who could realistically go ahead of them I think. It's irrelevant though, as long as you're in the top 6 it makes no difference where in it you are.

davidpfitz · 17-01-2011 3:38pm

durkadurka wrote: »

Didnt exactly give leinster an easy group either. The biggest factor is if you get an Italian team in your group. The two second place teams this year will have Italians in their group probably

I could be wrong on this, but I think the best second place teams every year for the past 5-6 years have always been the ones with the Italian teams in it.

It's a bit of a con, not only do you get a good draw with an Italian team, which means there are only 3 teams with a shout in the group - but two of them go through.

I think that when assessing the 2 best second place teams, the results against the bottom team in each of their groups should be disregarded.

sock puppet · 17-01-2011 6:19pm

castie wrote: »

Fat lot of good being first seed did us this year!

Imo the problem is that 4 years is too long a period to base the rankings on. It leads to a situation where teams like Biarritz and Stade Francais were able to live off past achievments (Biarritz in fairness have stepped it up again) and sides like Toulon and Racing Metro will be ranked low again even next year.

CouchSmart · 17-01-2011 6:30pm

To be honest with regards seedings, you have to beat the best to be the best. Teams might get an easy group and qualify for the quarters but eventually you'll have to beat the big teams. If you're good enough you'll get out of the group.

The Rooster · 18-01-2011 2:07pm

CouchSmart wrote: »

To be honest with regards seedings, you have to beat the best to be the best. Teams might get an easy group and qualify for the quarters but eventually you'll have to beat the big teams. If you're good enough you'll get out of the group.

That's true to a large extent, however seeds 7 and 8, who get a second chance despite not winning their group, tend to be the two luckiest runners-up, rather than the two best runners-up.

Ulster/Biarritz and Perpignan/Leicester only had to overcome 1 decent team to make the quarter-finals, whereas the likes of Clermont and Munster (assuming they win their last game) will have finished ahead of 2 decent teams and be out.

thomond2006 · 18-01-2011 4:48pm

Nagle registered in Heineken Cup squad, Dowling deregistered in his place because he's a long term absentee.

Surely this means Nagle will play some part on Saturday, they wouldn't bother registering him otherwise. Are Munster about to turn a corner and start picking on form? I'd start him along with POC tbh. Yes it was only one game but it was coming, I won't put up my preferred 23 until the squad is announced but I want to see a lot of change.

http://www.munsterrugby.ie/news/8543.php

CouchSmart · 18-01-2011 4:50pm

thomond2006 wrote: »

Nagle registered in Heineken Cup squad, Dowling deregistered because he's a long term absentee.

Surely this means Nagle will play some part on Saturday, they wouldn't bother registering him otherwise. Are Munster about to turn a corner and start picking on form? I'd start him along with POC tbh.

http://www.munsterrugby.ie/news/8543.php

I'd agree with starting him with POC. Makes the IRFU giving DOC a 2(3?) year extension only a couple months very questionable.

CIARAN_BOYLE · 18-01-2011 5:54pm

CouchSmart wrote: »

I'd agree with starting him with POC. Makes the IRFU giving DOC a 2(3?) year extension only a couple months very questionable.

I gotta agree with you about wondering about DOCs 2 year contract. There are a couple of young locks in Munster who could very easily displace him if they got game time.

Regarding locks I think MOD or DR are surplus to requirements at Munster. Munster don't need 4 senior locks while trying to give gametime to a few younger lads.

Probably MOD should go since he is the older one.

PhatPiggins · 18-01-2011 6:03pm

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

I gotta agree with you about wondering about DOCs 2 year contract. There are a couple of young locks in Munster who could very easily displace him if they got game time.

Regarding locks I think MOD or DR are surplus to requirements at Munster. Munster don't need 4 senior locks while trying to give gametime to a few younger lads.

Probably MOD should go since he is the older one.

MOD he's the oldest but he's been our best lock this season and probably the form Irish lock. Donnacha Ryan needs to be given a chance to prove he's good enough. I wouldn't mind DOC starting from the bench for the rest of the season.

CouchSmart · 18-01-2011 6:07pm

Personally I'd like to see POC and Ryan tried out. I've always seen Ryan as a more modern DOC, maybe some day. I wouldn't mind Leinster signing Ryan - he'd compliment Toner nicely.

profitius · 18-01-2011 6:10pm

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

I gotta agree with you about wondering about DOCs 2 year contract. There are a couple of young locks in Munster who could very easily displace him if they got game time.

Regarding locks I think MOD or DR are surplus to requirements at Munster. Munster don't need 4 senior locks while trying to give gametime to a few younger lads.

Probably MOD should go since he is the older one.

MOD and DR are better than DOC. DOC should be the one going but we all know that won't happen. Donnacha Ryan should go to Connacht because he simply isn't in the plans of the coaches. He'd be great signing for Connacht. MOD is 33 now so might be happy with a place on the bench for the big games.

CIARAN_BOYLE · 18-01-2011 6:44pm

profitius wrote: »

MOD and DR are better than DOC. DOC should be the one going but we all know that won't happen. Donnacha Ryan should go to Connacht because he simply isn't in the plans of the coaches. He'd be great signing for Connacht. MOD is 33 now so might be happy with a place on the bench for the big games.

DOC has a two year contract so he won't be leaving no matter what we think.

PhatPiggins · 18-01-2011 11:16pm

profitius wrote: »

MOD and DR are better than DOC. DOC should be the one going but we all know that won't happen. Donnacha Ryan should go to Connacht because he simply isn't in the plans of the coaches. He'd be great signing for Connacht. MOD is 33 now so might be happy with a place on the bench for the big games.

The only thing wrong with O'Callaghan is that he's out of form. He's very different style player from the two you mention so its hard to make a direct comparison but 90% of coaches would take DOC over Ryan any day.

Benny Cake · 19-01-2011 9:37am

http://breakingnews.ie/sport/?c=rugby&e=examiner&jp=kfeycwojgbkf

Some disaster if he were to leave but it would be hard to blame the fella after the way we've treated him!!!

thomond2006 · 19-01-2011 10:11am

D_Red_Army wrote: »

http://breakingnews.ie/sport/?c=rugby&e=examiner&jp=kfeycwojgbkf

Some disaster if he were to leave but it would be hard to blame the fella after the way we've treated him!!!

Oh jesus that's the last thing we need. I doubt he'll go tbh.

GerM · 19-01-2011 10:35am

D_Red_Army wrote: »

http://breakingnews.ie/sport/?c=rugby&e=examiner&jp=kfeycwojgbkf

Some disaster if he were to leave but it would be hard to blame the fella after the way we've treated him!!!

I doubt he'll be leaving. Northampton is a great club but it would be a huge risk. If he hit bad form or injury he could end up on the scrap heap very quickly. Munster have obviously added him to the ERC panel as a means of showing him he's wanted still. Have also heard he is being offered a full contract for next season and moving off the development list. About time too as he'll be 23 before the next HEC.

That said, he will still have POC and DOC ahead of him both of who are centrally contracted. POC will be first choice for several years yet and DOC's new central contract runs until 2014 meaning Nagle will be playing second fiddle more than likely no matter what for the next season or two. That's all assuming he can move ahead of MOD, Ryan and even Billy Holland who has seen more game time than him this season.

Big decisions for the lad soon. He should use the Northampton interest to broker himself a good deal and have the management give him a minimum number of games. Either that or come to Leinster.

thomond2006 · 19-01-2011 10:32pm

Munster kick off the weekend action in Garryowen FC on Friday night as they take on Esher RFC in the British and Irish Cup, ko 7.30pm.

Munster B&I Cup Squad:

Forwards:
David Kilcoyne, Peter Borlase, Stephen Archer, Duncan Casey, Sean Henry, Dave O’Callaghan, Dave Foley, TBC, Billy Holland, Tommy O’Donnell, Brian O’Hara, Paddy Butler, Brian Hayes.

Backs:
Duncan Williams, Cathal Sheridan, Conor Murray, Declan Cusack, Ivan Dineen, Tom Gleeson, Danny Barnes, Simon Zebo, Troy Smith, JJ Hanrahan, Sean Scanlon.

The TBC leaves a place for Ian Nagle I think.

http://www.munsterrugby.ie/news/8548.php

ambid · 19-01-2011 10:40pm

GerM wrote: »

Either that or come to Leinster.

Spot on! We need another second row.

CatFromHue · 19-01-2011 10:56pm

GerM wrote: »

I doubt he'll be leaving. Northampton is a great club but it would be a huge risk. If he hit bad form or injury he could end up on the scrap heap very quickly. Munster have obviously added him to the ERC panel as a means of showing him he's wanted still.

i think it could be a great move for him. at munster he has 2 lions to compete with. there are 4 second rows ahead of him at the moment. none of which look like they want to move on at any stage.

northampton is a good club and are very much on the up at the moment. they've a good history and local community support just like munster. plus there have been and are a few irish lads there. roger wilson, downey, best was there, and then geraghty

.

look at tonetti at sale, he has 8 games so far this season. nagle wont make that many appearances this season.

he could bide his time

jolley123 · 19-01-2011 11:07pm

ambid wrote: »

Spot on! We need another second row.

Second Row is an area where Leinster's academy is strong. Eoin Sherrif will see a lot of gametime soon and Mark Flanagan is rated quite highly.

Munster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread.

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