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Anyone used Indian-based "Business Pro Designs" for cheap website ?

  • 14-01-2011 06:41PM
    #1
    jimmmy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,539 ✭✭✭


    Anyone used http://www.businessprocreatives.com/Portfolio.php for their website?
    I have had a number of unsolicited phone calls from them. They appear to be indian based although with a UK address on some of their advertising. They seemingly have done websites for hundreds of satisfied customers in Ireland. ( inc champion sports www.champion.ie they said ) . On their portfolio they have examples of dozens if not hundreds of Irish websites, inc some which are very good looking. I am wondering if anyone here has used them + would recommend them or not ?


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Comments

  • #2
    fishy21
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 159 ✭✭fishy21


    there are alot of cons about outsourcing web design overseas, and only one pro which is the cost. Do a search on here there was a good thread this topic recently.


  • #3
    Dirk Gently
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,779 ✭✭✭Dirk Gently


    heavy on the pushy hard sell, light on after sales communication once they have your CC details.


  • #4
    tricky D
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,698 ✭✭✭tricky D


    This is the thread fishy21 refers to: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056133037

    This crowd do have an impressive number of clients in their portfolio and the designs look 'nice' too. However looking pretty is only a small but excessively weighted aspect of web design. There's a lot more going on than the visual matters. Also, looking at some of their sites, they use a lot of bad practices and don't tick some vital boxes well which will increase long term costs possibly resulting in false economy. clown bag's comment isn't a surprise.


  • #5
    MrMatisse
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,743 ✭✭✭MrMatisse


    If you are going to outsource go through elance.com or something, you have more protection


  • #6
    jimmmy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,539 ✭✭✭jimmmy


    tricky D wrote: »
    This crowd do have an impressive number of clients in their portfolio and the designs look 'nice' too. However looking pretty is only a small but excessively weighted aspect of web design. There's a lot more going on than the visual matters. Also, looking at some of their sites, they use a lot of bad practices and don't tick some vital boxes well which will increase long term costs possibly resulting in false economy.

    Could you please specify which "bad practices / vital boxes " you are referring to ? The multinational firm based in India say its the little Irish web designers who do not tick the vital boxes / provide all the features as their websites do.

    Anyway, thanks for the replies so far. I am really wondering if anyone here has used them + would recommend them or not ?....and can they provide details ( well, the name ) of their website as designed by "Business Pro Designs" to verify their comments ?

    A good few posters on this forum seem to be Irish website designers, or good friends of Irish website designers, who have a vested interest in putting down the work of their overseas competitors. I do not have a vested interest in web design, I am simply interested in getting a website made for the best value for money. I know someone here in Dublin who I could sit down beside would have obvious advantages, but if that person wants ten times the wages of what someone in India - who has the same or better qualifications - will work for, my budget dictates I may have to go for the cheaper quote. Quality wise, www.champion.ie ( who I have no connection with ) + the other indian designed websites reassures me that if its good enough for them...


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  • #7
    tricky D
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,698 ✭✭✭tricky D


    jimmmy wrote: »
    Could you please specify which "bad practices / vital boxes " you are referring to ? The multinational firm based in India say its the little Irish web designers who do not tick the vital boxes / provide all the features as their websites do.
    At a glance: poor SEO, ugly URLs, excessive graphics, tables based layout, improper and tacky use of Flash, graphics which should be text (and SEO keyword text at that) done in Flash, inconsistent and poorly designed templates, no accessibility for starters. Oh and frames too. However no one should deny that Irish designers make these mistakes too.
    jimmmy wrote: »
    A good few posters on this forum seem to be Irish website designers, or good friends of Irish website designers, who have a vested interest in putting down the work of their overseas competitors. I do not have a vested interest in web design, I am simply interested in getting a website made for the best value for money. I know someone here in Dublin who I could sit down beside would have obvious advantages, but if that person wants ten times the wages of what someone in India - who has the same or better qualifications - will work for, my budget dictates I may have to go for the cheaper quote. Quality wise, www.champion.ie ( who I have no connection with ) + the other indian designed websites reassures me that if its good enough for them...
    We do have a vested interest. First, most of us are Irish, second the economic multiplier effect wrt spending money abroad. However, it's a double-edged sword as Irish based designers are more direct competitors, so the accusation of having vested interests doesn't apply that much in reality.

    Read the other thread, there are plenty of good posts and advice in it. My main point is simple: such outsourcing carries a large risk of becoming a false economy once you factor in the extra time you have to invest and what that actually costs. Most just look at the price and don't do the costs properly hence the false economy. Value is possible and if you feel you can get better value abroad, go for it and happy hunting, but it's just not a black and white matter.


  • #8
    pwd
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,284 ✭✭✭pwd


    India has one of the highest rates of corruption in the world.
    A high rate of corruption is considered to equate to a 20% tax. I assume that includes business from abroad.

    That's before you even consider the practical problems and risks inherent with outsourcing to a different continent.

    A bad website will negatively effect your image. Not worth the risk tbh.


  • #9
    MrMatisse
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,743 ✭✭✭MrMatisse


    pwd wrote: »
    India has one of the highest rates of corruption in the world.
    A high rate of corruption is considered to equate to a 20% tax. I assume that includes business from abroad.

    That's before you even consider the practical problems and risks inherent with outsourcing to a different continent.

    A bad website will negatively effect your image. Not worth the risk tbh.

    What has that got to do with website design?


  • #10
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    MrMatisse wrote: »
    What has that got to do with website design?

    It has to do with credibility of getting web design done in India.

    Web Design isn't like buying a lampshade.....if the lampshade doesn't work you bring it back and get a refund/replacement. simple.

    Getting a website developed isn't simple.
    You might want changes every week of the year.
    How fast or willing will the designer be to react to your needs.

    If you want a cheapo website why don't you read this thread......they are going with weebly.

    http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056144965&page=3


  • #11
    xp90
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 583 ✭✭✭xp90


    Its great site friend!!

    desi-radio-arr82710.gif


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  • #12
    jimmmy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,539 ✭✭✭jimmmy


    xp90 wrote: »
    Its great site friend!!

    some are. eg
    http://www.preciousmomentscaptured.com/index.php/product/browse/23

    Its not often you see quality like that come from an Irish web designer. Maybe because the Indian multinational designs thousands of websites, and has the experience of having done hundreds in Ireland, that is the reason its better ? I wonder how much an Irish web designer would charge for a website like the one above...if they can do one like the one above for the same price then great. Any Irish web designer like to give a price indication of how much they would charge for a site similar to the above, assuming they can do the same quality as the above ?


  • #13
    MrMatisse
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,743 ✭✭✭MrMatisse


    You would swear Irish web designers are the best in the world reading this thread. Im sure the OP has gotten dozens of PM's from one man band Irish operators since he/she posted.

    If Indian designers or designers from the U.S/U.K are so bad, then it is amazing that so many Irish ones feel the need to come on here to criticise them.

    Major Irish companies are now starting to outsouce, they are probably fed up dealing with Irish designers who consider themselves god's gift, charge an arm and a leg and then produce rubbish.


  • #14
    pwd
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,284 ✭✭✭pwd


    MrMatisse wrote: »
    You would swear Irish web designers are the best in the world reading this thread. Im sure the OP has gotten dozens of PM's from one man band Irish operators since he/she posted.

    If Indian designers or designers from the U.S/U.K are so bad, then it is amazing that so many Irish ones feel the need to come on here to criticise them.

    Major Irish companies are now starting to outsouce, they are probably fed up dealing with Irish designers who consider themselves god's gift, charge an arm and a leg and then produce rubbish.
    I'm not a Web designer.

    India score the worst in the Bribe Payers Index.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bribe_Payers_Index

    Here is a random forum thread about businessprocreatives:

    http://whocallsme.com/Phone-Number.aspx/2081332514/2

    They seem dodgy as hell imo.

    Disregard Irish professionals' advice. They dont care about their reputations or credibility; they just want to unfairly slam random competitors. (This is sarcasm).

    What have UK or US Web designers got to do with this discussion?


  • #15
    MrMatisse
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,743 ✭✭✭MrMatisse


    pwd wrote: »
    I'm not a Web designer.

    Dont remember saying you were.


  • #16
    pwd
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,284 ✭✭✭pwd


    MrMatisse wrote: »
    Dont remember saying you were.
    You said that "so many" Irish Web designers felt the need to come on here to criticise them.

    This is nonsensical, since Web designers should be the first people you should look for advice from about Web design. But anyway.

    There only seems to be one Web designer criticising them, and his criticism seems valid.


  • #17
    OctavarIan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,736 ✭✭✭OctavarIan


    tricky D wrote: »
    At a glance: poor SEO, ugly URLs, excessive graphics, tables based layout, improper and tacky use of Flash, graphics which should be text (and SEO keyword text at that) done in Flash, inconsistent and poorly designed templates, no accessibility for starters. Oh and frames too. However no one should deny that Irish designers make these mistakes too.

    I'm quoting this for the benefit of the OP since he seems to have missed it.

    You get what you pay for with web design. It doesn't matter if it's in Ireland, India, USA, wherever. Cheap web design is cheap for a reason; it's average at best.

    That BusinessPro Solutions crowd; their own website is absolutely awful. That should be an indication of how much they value their business. They're bigging up the fact they give free quotes, but the text "Ask for a quote" on their page is SIDEWAYS. Speaking from a user interface perspective, their entire site is total rubbish. There's no thought given to the design or presentation of information. If they don't care about their own site why do you think they'll care about yours?

    I'd strongly suggest you look around more, there's no shortage of web designers out there and with a smaller studio you're likely to get a better 1-to-1 service.


  • #18
    tricky D
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,698 ✭✭✭tricky D


    jimmmy wrote: »
    some are. eg
    http://www.preciousmomentscaptured.com/index.php/product/browse/23

    Its not often you see quality like that come from an Irish web designer. Maybe because the Indian multinational designs thousands of websites, and has the experience of having done hundreds in Ireland, that is the reason its better ? I wonder how much an Irish web designer would charge for a website like the one above...if they can do one like the one above for the same price then great. Any Irish web designer like to give a price indication of how much they would charge for a site similar to the above, assuming they can do the same quality as the above ?
    MrMatisse wrote: »
    You would swear Irish web designers are the best in the world reading this thread. Im sure the OP has gotten dozens of PM's from one man band Irish operators since he/she posted.

    If Indian designers or designers from the U.S/U.K are so bad, then it is amazing that so many Irish ones feel the need to come on here to criticise them.

    Major Irish companies are now starting to outsouce, they are probably fed up dealing with Irish designers who consider themselves god's gift, charge an arm and a leg and then produce rubbish.
    A lot of strawman arguments, poor unfounded assumptions, cheap digs and borderline trolling being made in these two posts.

    The pros and cons have been discussed well and pretty fairly in this and the other thread. It's certainly not a black and white choice. Good luck to anyone looking for a presence who comes across these threads, I hope you get good value wherever you choose to get your development done.


  • #19
    jimmmy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,539 ✭✭✭jimmmy


    OctavarIan wrote: »
    I'm quoting this for the benefit of the OP since he seems to have missed it.
    You get what you pay for with web design. It doesn't matter if it's in Ireland, India, USA, wherever.
    Surely some web designers in Dublin will justify charging 50 or 100 euro per hour if they can get it. Or how much do they charge ? People who are as well if not better qualified but who live in cheaper overhead countries, and who design an awful lot more websites for the Irish market ( there are seemingly hundreds of websites designed by this Indian multinational for business in Ireland alone ; see their portfolio on their website ) than the average Irish web design business, can presumably charge less for their time.

    OctavarIan wrote: »
    That BusinessPro Solutions crowd; their own website is absolutely awful.
    Their own website is fine for the amount of information on it. I am more concerned with the websites they do for other businesses and which they charge money for e.g.

    http://www.finaltouch.ie/

    http://www.preciousmomentscaptured.com/index.php/product/browse
    OctavarIan wrote: »
    Cheap web design is cheap for a reason; it's average at best.
    I am still waiting for some Irish web designers to come up with quotes for similar types of websites to the above, far eastern designed ones ; maybe the quality has blown them away and they cannot compete on price either ?
    I would prefer buy Irish, but money is so tight that the best value for money will be considered. I have got references from people in Ireland who have used this Indian website firm + who are happy to recommend them. However if any Irish web designers want to be considered for the work, can they do work similar in quality to eg the 2 websites above, and if so how much would they charge for same ?


  • #20
    jimmmy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,539 ✭✭✭jimmmy


    The quote got ( for an e-commerce site ) from an Irish website site designer was five times that of the Indian multi-national, and the e-commerce websites designed by the Irish business was not as good as the two samples designed in the far east
    http://www.finaltouch.ie/
    http://www.preciousmomentscaptured.c...product/browse

    Any Irish website designed prepared to quote ? ( but most important they must show an example of their work )


  • #21
    serfboard
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,708 ✭✭✭serfboard


    jimmmy wrote: »
    Any Irish website designed prepared to quote ? ( but most important they must show an example of their work )

    Why don't you go on tenderme.ie and ask for quotes? As part of the process say that those tendering will need to include samples of their work.

    You say you got a quote from an Irish company - one. When you've got multiple quotes, then compare to the Indians.

    If you do decide to go with the Indians I would be interested to hear how it works out for you. Maybe you'll post back here and let us know?


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  • #22
    AndyJB
    Closed Accounts Posts: 177 ✭✭AndyJB


    Hi All,
    I met a UK client recently, they're in the retail technology area. The conversation of off-shore systems and web development came up in conversation. Their take on it was very interesting.

    The primary issues that they continually encounter is one of communications and the difficulty of the off-shore contractor to understand the nuances of the english language thus not grasping what is actually required of them. More often than not what was being delivered for testing was not actually functioning as required. They invariably required numerous tweaks to correct.

    They gave me examples where the contractor couldn't for some reason grasp the concept of post codes and how they relate to credit checking in the UK. This is a pretty basic requirement for any UK retailer that extends credit to consumers and has been in existence, even pre any live POS systems, for years.

    The guys I met are very intune with ISO documentation standards so there was no lack of technical specifications available. They eventually halted the credit check project and kept what they have as the costs were mounting without any deliverables.

    I think before going down the off-shore route you should exhaust the local venders first. Fortunately these days you don't need an IBM or Big 4 consultancy house to develop powerful systems or web applications.

    I'd be very interested to know how you proceed, so please do keep us posted.

    Best of luck.


  • #23
    team eGlobe
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40 ✭team eGlobe


    jimmmy wrote: »
    Any Irish website designed prepared to quote ? ( but most important they must show an example of their work )
    PM you with a quote less than the Business Pro Designs's price(what's on their website) and samples of work which are better than what you have mentioned. Please let me know what you think.Thanks


  • #24
    gavney1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 537 ✭✭✭gavney1


    Hi OP

    I have used Business Pro Designs.

    It was an abandoned project which cost me about 1000euro. The total cost was going to be about 1800euro, but I abandoned it half way through and didn't pay them the balance - they charge you for each step along the way.

    Part of the reason for the abandonment was that I abandoned the idea as a whole, and part of the reason was that they weren't doing a particularly good job.

    I've very little experience of web design. What they produced wasn't bad but it wasn't great either. I'll summarize my issues with them as follows.

    1. The content management system they use isn't great. I've since learned that there's far better ones out there, like Joomla etc.. BPD's is easy to use but limited

    2. They are VERY VERY VERY annoying. As soon as they'd completed a change they'd ring me 4/5 times a day looking for payment/ approval. I had to tell the guy to **** off a few times. One of the times he rang my while I was on a beach on holidays and I started screaming at him, as I'd already told him to stop calling me, and that I'd ring him when I was back when I'd review the changes - I didn't need him putting pressure on me.

    3. It can be difficult to communicate with an Indian person. It's a different language obviously but also a different culture e.g. the way they constantly put me under pressure to give a response/ payment is very Indian.

    Now, having said that, I still don't buy into the "you get what you pay for" idea 100%. Of course you're more likely to get a good job done if you pay more but I know there are Irish web designers out there who just get someone in India to do the job for them, and just pass on the message. And there's probably guys who've paid 10K and gotten a worse website than the one I got.

    There's no easy answer -you really have to shop around, get recommendations etc..

    The biggest lesson I learned from this is you should learn a little bit about web development yourself first. That way you can at least communicate better with a web developer, and understand what's involved. Learn what CMS is, what PHP is etc...
    More importantly, think about what exactly you want your website to look like.

    Overall, would I recommend them Business Pro Designs?

    No.

    If you shop around, do your research and haggle - you'll find an Irish web designer who can do a better job without charging 10K. You might have to pay about 4K (assuming it's a basic website), but it will be worth it to save yourself the headaches.


  • #25
    gavney1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 537 ✭✭✭gavney1


    op, ill also point out, that you could probably get a decent website done in India for less than what BPD charge if you shop around.

    You're right about the overheads being much smaller there, and the price is naturally lower. But bear in mind, BPD aren't the only Indian web development company out there and I very much doubt their prices are the most competitive.


  • #26
    pwd
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,284 ✭✭✭pwd


    gavney1 wrote: »
    3. It can be difficult to communicate with an Indian person. It's a different language obviously but also a different culture e.g. the way they constantly put me under pressure to give a response/ payment is very Indian.

    A couple of people have referred to a language barrier. They speak English in India! :) Though the fact it seems like there is a language barrier is a good indicator that they are very awkward to deal with I think.


  • #27
    jimmmy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,539 ✭✭✭jimmmy


    team eGlobe wrote: »
    PM you with a quote less than the Business Pro Designs's price(what's on their website) and samples of work which are better than what you have mentioned. Please let me know what you think.Thanks
    thanks for that. I'm overseas on some business at the moment so have not looked in to it in detail. With all due respect, and I like to buy Irish when I can, I do not think your "samples of work are better than what was mentioned" ( the 2 mentioned 7 or 8 posts ago ). I'll look in to it again in due course. If you are cheaper thats a great help, thanks, and increases the chances of the whole new website going ahead. At least I would presumably be dealing with someone who has an Irish ( or at least easy to understand ) accent rather than an Indian accent.


  • #28
    jimmmy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,539 ✭✭✭jimmmy


    gavney1 wrote: »
    op, ill also point out, that you could probably get a decent website done in India for less than what BPD charge if you shop around.

    You're right about the overheads being much smaller there, and the price is naturally lower. But bear in mind, BPD aren't the only Indian web development company out there and I very much doubt their prices are the most competitive.

    After only 5 minutes looking I have been offered an e-commerce website for first 950 euro, then700 euro. I am sure there are cheaper than that too, but the whole distance / accent / trust thing is a bit off putting. Though to be honest its not easy to trust an Irish guy who charges 5,000 and who gets most of his work sub-contracted out either.
    Its difficult to know if the proposed online business will work / make money or not, so thats why I do not want to spend a fortune - even if I had it to spare, which I do not. I suspect most people still like to go in to a shop and touch / feel what they are buying, rather than buy online....unless perhaps the item is very light / cheap to post. Thanks to all for your replies anyway.


  • #29
    gavney1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 537 ✭✭✭gavney1


    jimmmy wrote: »
    I suspect most people still like to go in to a shop and touch / feel what they are buying, rather than buy online....unless perhaps the item is very light / cheap to post. Thanks to all for your replies anyway.


    depends what your product is. But actually, size doesn't seem to matter that much.

    On the one hand, people don't like paying big postage charges for, say, a tin of roses cause the value is low.

    But on the other hand, if buying a sofa, lots of people would rather pay to have it delivered anyway, whether buying online or in a shop

    It's really down to the nature of the product - e.g. electronics,perfumes & books sell really well online for various reasons. And surprisingly, clothing is becoming popular, particularly among young men (as they couldn't be arsed shopping)


  • #30
    businessdit
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 173 ✭✭businessdit


    this guy based in India seems to own it:
    http://in.linkedin.com/in/avimannu


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  • #31
    byrne0f56789
    Closed Accounts Posts: 201 ✭✭byrne0f56789


    The bottom line is how many sales result from your site. It’s become more a marketing operation than a design operation. A good sales focused website will dramatically increase your return on investment from advertising. It reduces your cost per lead, and as a result your cost per sale.

    It’s about putting what works for you offline on your website.

    With regards to prices, Irish web designers are working out more or less the same as the Indian guys right now. Especially, when you cost in your time managing the project.

    It’s up to the business owner to decide which way to go. I would say that you should consider your return on investment as well as the marketing ability of the web design firm.



    Their speciality should match what you want to achieve.


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