Obsession with homeownership

Dyr · 15-01-2011 05:19PM

Renters have very little rights in Ireland compared to other european countries, this country has alway been run in the interests of certain groups and landlords a very defintely one of them. It's our gombeen culture basically

kylith · 15-01-2011 05:21PM

I think that a lot of it is to do with the racial memory of landlords in the past.

However I do think that renting is essentially dead money. You pay the rent and, yes, you get somewhere to live, but there are downsides too. In this country it can be very difficult to find somewhere to rent is you have pets or children. Your landlord can evict you, as long as they do so within the law, and it can be hard to find somewhere else.

And what happens when you get old and can't afford to pay rent? If you'd bought the house you'd more than likely have paid off the mortgage by that point and have your own house that no-one can throw you out of, and no rent to worry about paying out of your meagre pension. If you never buy then if you can't afford to pay rent you're depending on the kindness of your children to either take you in, pay your rent, or pay for a home, which is even more expensive than renting.

Iwannahurl · 15-01-2011 05:24PM

The explanations for international differences in home ownership rates are quite complex.

I rented for many years before buying in 2002. At the time I thought the housing market was going crazy and would end in train-wrecks and tears. I only had to wait about 5 or 6 years before being proved right!

For a while the whole loan-to-value phenomenon more than justified the decision to buy, but that was an illusion in one sense.

Now that the market has crashed, I still feel I am in a better position than if I was renting.

Security of tenure and decision-making power regarding what you want to do with the interior and exterior of the building are important factors. I have no post-colonial baggage.

I feel at home now in a way that I never did when renting. And when the mortgage is paid off I'll have more than a collection of stamps and Dinky cars to leave to my kids.

KindOfIrish · 15-01-2011 05:29PM

whiteonion wrote: »

Why is this country obsessed with homeownership?

It's a pure masochistic obsession to be entrapped in debt for the best period of human life.(usually 30 - 55 years old). I feel sorry for so called homeowners who pay in interest alone, more than whole equity in a house.

jam_mac_jam · 15-01-2011 05:33PM

Iwannahurl wrote: »

The explanations for international differences in home ownership rates are quite complex.

I rented for many years before buying in 2002. At the time I thought the housing market was going crazy and would end in train-wrecks and tears. I only had to wait about 5 or 6 years before being proved right!

For a while the whole loan-to-value phenomenon more than justified the decision to buy, but that was an illusion in one sense.

Now that the market has crashed, I still feel I am in a better position than if I was renting.

Security of tenure and decision-making power regarding what you want to do with the interior and exterior of the building are important factors. I have no post-colonial baggage.

I feel at home now in a way that I never did when renting. And when the mortgage is paid off I'll have more than a collection of stamps and Dinky cars to leave to my kids.

I rent and you can be sure that Iwill have a lot more then stamps to leave my kids.

kippy · 15-01-2011 05:35PM

KindOfIrish wrote: »

It's a pure masochistic obsession to be entrapped in debt for the best period of human life.(usually 30 - 55 years old). I feel sorry for so called homeowners who pay in interest alone, more than whole equity in a house.

Debt, for the right reasons and managed correctly is not essentially a negative thing.

The best period of human life (as you describe it) usually, for many in this day and age, also coincides with the time kids can come along, having a stable roof over their heads is of great benefit to them and you during this phase. If that involves the taking on of MANAGEABLE debt to do so, then I dont think theres any parent that wouldnt disagree with it.

kippy · 15-01-2011 05:37PM

jam_mac_jam wrote: »

I rent and you can be sure that Iwill have a lot more then stamps to leave my kids.

Indeed.
If you invest the money you are saving by not owning a house into the correct areas. Thats another totally crazy kettle of fish!
But yeah, I hope you managed well and leave your kids as much as possible.

Rabble Rabble · 15-01-2011 05:39PM

bluewolf wrote: »

What on earth is this "nothing to show after it" business? You have nothing to show after buying and eating your food either.
You pay to get shelter and flexibility. You have a home for all the time you're paying rent. You can buy a house if you are that obsessed with owning it, but that doesn't make rent "wasted money" just because you get something different from it

Rent was not wasted money during the boom - because the inevitable drop in prices would have wiped out any gains in equity you paid in, however there are times, close the bottom of the market, where buying - if possible - makes more sense than renting. Buying a house and paying off some equity is saving that money. If rent is higher, or the same as a normal mortgage that is the time to go for it.

Iwannahurl · 15-01-2011 05:40PM

KindOfIrish wrote: »

It's a pure masochistic obsession to be entrapped in debt for the best period of human life.(usually 30 - 55 years old). I feel sorry for so called homeowners who pay in interest alone, more than whole equity in a house.

It's an economic decision. There are times when buying makes no sense as you can get much bigger bang for your buck by renting. I feel no pain in (over)paying my mortgage.

jam_mac_jam wrote: »

I rent and you can be sure that Iwill have a lot more then stamps to leave my kids.

Fair point. I wasn't disparaging renters at all. No offence intended. Everybody's situation may be different. However, inheriting property has its advantages. I know that from personal experience, though I had to share it with a bunch of siblings!

Rabble Rabble · 15-01-2011 05:42PM

alb wrote: »

what all the poeple who say rent is dead/wasted money seem to forget is how much interest you pay on a mortgage. Mortgage interest is just as much dead/wasted money as rent is.

To anyone who thinks this, how much interest do you think is paid on over the lifetime of a mortgage of say 250,000 over 25 years? I'm interested in your estimate, can you even guess to the nearest 50,000?

Buying is probably better than renting if you have cash to buy, if you're just borrowing to buy you need to do some serious maths to know which is actually the 'waste' of money.

Actually that is not true, as you could invest that money to more use in many cases - certainly during the boom.

If rent and mortgages are similar prices for similar houses your argument falls through, regardless of how much is spent on interest in any one house, as at the end you have equity.

Ir rent is cheaper and you save the difference it makes sense.

Thats not the only reason people want to own - people want to re-decorate, add extensions, refit and so on. Horses for courses.

Iwannahurl · 15-01-2011 05:49PM

Rabble Rabble wrote: »

Rent was not wasted money during the boom - because the inevitable drop in prices would have wiped out any gains in equity you paid in, however there are times, close the bottom of the market, where buying - if possible - makes more sense than renting. Buying a house and paying off some equity is saving that money. If rent is higher, or the same as a normal mortgage that is the time to go for it.

It's an economic decision, based on personal circumstances and current/potential realities such as tax policy and interest rates.

Here's Ronan Lyons on the topic (May 2009):

The tax system as it currently stands certainly strongly favours home ownership. If the government decides that the balance of emphasis when correcting its fiscal black hole should be on raising taxes rather than cutting expenditure, it may abolish mortgage interest relief and bring in a universal residential property tax. This could significantly alter the maths of buying versus renting and bring about the ‘nation of renters’. As it stands, though, even if rents were to halve over the coming year, the premium people pay to actually own their home appears too small for that to happen.

iPlop · 15-01-2011 05:50PM

Regardless of how much interest I pay on my mortgage ,I need a "HOME" for my kids ,I don't think dragging them from rented house to rented house is the right thing to do.They need a family home to live in and grow up with friends in the area instead of making new friends every 1 or 2 years.That's why I bought a house of my own.

goat2 · 15-01-2011 05:51PM

squeakyduck wrote: »

Rent is wasted money, its of benefit to you as you get a house to stay in and live but it's not going anywhere you're no closer to having your own house.

Personally I'd love to own my own house. I'd love to have somewhere permanent to have all my stuff and a house to come home to.

i think people who rent have it good, that is if they can get a long term with a good landlord,
tenants do not have to paint outside of house, cut lawns, have to pay for the breakdowns that happen to building, not having to pay for septic tank cleaning, right now is a great time to be in the business of looking for long term rent at a decent price,

kylith · 15-01-2011 06:21PM

Can one of the proponents of renting tell me what they will do when they are old and no longer earning enough to pay rent?

phasers · 15-01-2011 06:23PM

kylith wrote: »

Can one of the proponents of renting tell me what they will do when they are old and no longer earning enough to pay rent?

Some people have decent pensions.

kippy · 15-01-2011 06:25PM

kylith wrote: »

Can one of the proponents of renting tell me what they will do when they are old and no longer earning enough to pay rent?

In theory, pretty straightforward.
They would, in theory, have a lot more money saved during the time they were renting. Had that money been saved/invested properly, together with a pension, they should have no issues continuing to rent.

Of course, there are numerous other factors that could shake up that ideal world, but thats the theory I think.

fontanalis · 15-01-2011 06:27PM

kylith wrote: »

Can one of the proponents of renting tell me what they will do when they are old and no longer earning enough to pay rent?

I'm not supporting renting until death, just not rushing out to buy a house straight away based on the ridiculous notion that rent is dead money.

15-01-2011 06:28PM

Can't imagine living in one place my entire life. Can't imagine not having labour mobility. Can't imagine finding out I was in negative equity. Can't imagine paying a mortgage knowing the same monthly outlay would get me a much nicer rented house.

I know from looking at my brothers who have settled down all round the world a few times each that being locked down is not the way I want to be.. They have bounced around the world without a care in the world and that's the way I'll be doing it aswell.

And Sink the Banana, you should be more careful with your words. Saying that it's wrong to move kids around rented accommodation is blatent bullshlt and it's insulting.

15-01-2011 06:29PM

kylith wrote: »

Can one of the proponents of renting tell me what they will do when they are old and no longer earning enough to pay rent?

Pensions? Savings? Investments? Just because you rent doesn't mean you don't put money aside.

I'd rather my money for old age be liquid anyway.

stovelid · 15-01-2011 06:30PM

It's a good way of avoiding getting dumped into a Leah's Cross type home as your kids are sucking up to you for your gaff.

And then falling out with each other over the house when you kick the bucket but you're dead anyway so fuck it.

m5ex9oqjawdg2i · 15-01-2011 06:31PM

Iwannahurl wrote: »

The explanations for international differences in home ownership rates are quite complex.

I rented for many years before buying in 2002. At the time I thought the housing market was going crazy and would end in train-wrecks and tears. I only had to wait about 5 or 6 years before being proved right!

For a while the whole loan-to-value phenomenon more than justified the decision to buy, but that was an illusion in one sense.

Now that the market has crashed, I still feel I am in a better position than if I was renting.

Security of tenure and decision-making power regarding what you want to do with the interior and exterior of the building are important factors. I have no post-colonial baggage.

I feel at home now in a way that I never did when renting. And when the mortgage is paid off I'll have more than a collection of stamps and Dinky cars to leave to my kids.

I'll never get this "At least I will have something to leave my kids"...

Why would you get in debt for 30 years to to leave your offspring something? Surely they can provide for themselves? I don't understand the mentality of working your whole life just so your offspring have a more comfy existance...

sollar · 15-01-2011 06:37PM

Because i wouldn't trust landlords in this country - if at all possible they will screw you over at the first opportunity.

I wouldn't like to be raising a family in this country on a tight wage and relying on a landlord to be decent and fair.

redz11 · 15-01-2011 06:38PM

Copper23 wrote: »

I'd say the main thing really is having something of value to pass. When you are gone your family is provided for by your ownership of the land.

Have to say, that's a strange argument. I would much rather my family were raised to provide for themselves. And, if (hypothetically), in the future, I were to leave anything to dependents, I would much rather leave behind more liquid investments than property.

Sink The Banana wrote: »

Regardless of how much interest I pay on my mortgage ,I need a "HOME" for my kids ,I don't think dragging them from rented house to rented house is the right thing to do.They need a family home to live in and grow up with friends in the area instead of making new friends every 1 or 2 years.That's why I bought a house of my own.

I don't know your individual circumstances. But what if you were to lose your job, and be lucky enough to be offered a new one, on great money, elsewhere in the country ... but were unable to take it, due to being locked into a mortgage and trapped by negative equity?

By the way, plenty of people rent the one place for years, indeed decades. Just because you're renting doesn't mean you're going to be moving every year or so. It just gives you the flexibility to do so when you want to.

kippy · 15-01-2011 06:40PM

Samara White Washboard wrote: »

I'll never get this "At least I will have something to leave my kids"...

Why would you get in debt for 30 years to to leave your offspring something? Surely they can provide for themselves? I don't understand the mentality of working your whole life just so your offspring have a more comfy existance...

To ensure they dont have to be in as much debt for 30 years of their life? (Or at least that is the intention)
I would have thought that were obvious.

redz11 · 15-01-2011 06:42PM

kippy wrote: »

To ensure they dont have to be in as much debt for 30 years of their life? (Or at least that is the intention)
I would have thought that were obvious.

Or they could just invest their money more wisely in the first place, live off the profits, not get a mortgage, and thus avoid getting into debt at all .....?

sollar · 15-01-2011 06:44PM

Kintarō Hattori wrote: »

When I'm 65 I'll hopefully have the mortgage paid off. If I rent and retired I'd still have a huge outlay every month.

I agree with this, if your able to pay of a mortgage in 20 to 25 years then you can relax and not worry to much then. House paid by 50 and if you lose your job then you only have to worry about feeding yourself and the dole should cover that.

15-01-2011 06:44PM

kippy wrote: »

To ensure they dont have to be in as much debt for 30 years of their life? (Or at least that is the intention)
I would have thought that were obvious.

I know that if I get inheritance, I'll be starting a business or investing it... That's a big "if". We've been trying to talk mam into selling, moving into something smaller and seeing the world properly with the difference.

kippy · 15-01-2011 06:46PM

redz11 wrote: »

Have to say, that's a strange argument. I would much rather my family were raised to provide for themselves. And, if (hypothetically), in the future, I were to leave anything to dependents, I would much rather leave behind more liquid investments than property.

I don't know your individual circumstances. But what if you were to lose your job, and be lucky enough to be offered a new one, on great money, elsewhere in the country ... but were unable to take it, due to being locked into a mortgage and trapped by negative equity?

By the way, plenty of people rent the one place for years, indeed decades. Just because you're renting doesn't mean you're going to be moving every year or so. It just gives you the flexibility to do so when you want to.

I'd like to leave a combination of both as well as passing on some smarts.

Ifs and buts are great. What if you were renting your house and you got pregnant. Two weeks before you are due the landlord decides he'd like you out. What do you do?

I get your point about the job however for me, a key factor for any job is location, more so than money, if I really NEEDED the money I would do what my father did years ago while he and mum brought us up, live where the job was during the week, came home weekends, until something closer to home came up again weighing up all the pros and cons.
I am sure there is a similar method of resolving the "pregnant" while renting scenario I mentioned.

Yep, plenty of people do rent long term. Its just not very well regulated or geared towards the renter in this country. I would prefer if it was to be honest. Theres no reason for it not to be and have the best of both worlds.

redz11 · 15-01-2011 06:48PM

kippy wrote: »

I'd like to leave a combination of both as well as passing on some smarts.

Ifs and buts are great. What if you were renting your house and you got pregnant. Two weeks before you are due the landlord decides he'd like you out. What do you do?

I get your point about the job however for me, a key factor for any job is location, more so than money, if I really NEEDED the money I would do what my father did years ago while he and mum brought us up, live where the job was during the week, came home weekends, until something closer to home came up again weighing up all the pros and cons.
I am sure there is a similar method of resolving the "pregnant" while renting scenario I mentioned.

If I were to become pregnant unexpectedly, I would a million times prefer the insecurity of renting, than the ball and chain of a mortgage hanging over me.

kippy · 15-01-2011 06:54PM

redz11 wrote: »

Or they could just invest their money more wisely in the first place, live off the profits, not get a mortgage, and thus avoid getting into debt at all .....?

Thats a great utopian vision.
How many people do you know that have invested their money wisely?
(Yep, they are out there but not as "numerous" as some would like to think)

Obsession with homeownership

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