Obsession with homeownership

whiteonion

Why is this country obsessed with homeownership? In many other countries people who have advanced quite far in their careers, work in middle management etc are happy to let their families live in a rented flat, whereas in Ireland people have been buying apartment as soon as they get their first graduate job.

I don't understand this obsession at all, me I never owned a house and I'm happy to rent.

Jesus Wept

We have poor rights as tenants, it won't change unless that changes.

J K

The Land white onion. The Land.
You wouldn't understand it.

slavetothegrind

i didn't haul all that seaweed for years for nothin'!

phasers

I think it all goes back to when The Brits stole our land and made us pay rent to live on it. Tenaments wouldn't have helped either, Ireland have a very poor history with rented accommodation.

The dream was always to own your own land, I think it just carried on down the generations.

whiteonion

The-Rigger wrote: »

We have poor rights as tenants, it won't change unless that changes.

Compared to what other countries?

crossmolinalad

I did rent houses for 3 years
In that time i had to move houses 6 times
seen nice house once
All the other ones were just good enough to live in
Most of them had poor heating some dodgy crappy kitchens bathrooms and dirty furniture
So i decided after 3 years to buy my own home

squeakyduck

Rent is wasted money, its of benefit to you as you get a house to stay in and live but it's not going anywhere you're no closer to having your own house.

Personally I'd love to own my own house. I'd love to have somewhere permanent to have all my stuff and a house to come home to.

drdeadlift

whiteonion wrote: »

Compared to what other countries?

France/Spain

squeakyduck

squeakyduck wrote: »

Rent is wasted money.

Not this tired old line again

I'm amazed people even use the bus - bus fares are wasted money when you could buy a car!
Buying in the shop is wasted money when you could buy a farm!

crossmolinalad

drdeadlift wrote: »

France/Spain

The Netherlands

whiteonion

squeakyduck wrote: »

Rent is wasted money, its of benefit to you as you get a house to stay in and live but it's not going anywhere you're no closer to having your own house.

Personally I'd love to own my own house. I'd love to have somewhere permanent to have all my stuff and a house to come home to.

If you move around every couple of years it's probably better to rent, you don't flip houses in just a month these days.

bluewolf

bluewolf wrote: »

Not this tired old line again

I'm amazed people even use the bus - bus fares are wasted money when you could buy a car!
Buying in the shop is wasted money when you could buy a farm!

They are some poor comparisons tbh.

So paying rent of on average of E70 per week to have absolutely nothing to show after it at the end is better then buying a house and one day not having to pay anything but bills?

Oh by the way

Bus- cheaper costs, you don't need to pay tax, insurance, cars eventually have ZERO value.

As for the farm compared to a shop.... I needn't get into that one

BornToBe?

Well if you had any small idea of Irish history you would understand.


IT'S MY LAND!!!!



(Then I got carried away by a celtic tiger, re morgaged the house to buy giant tv's, blu ray thingys, and have at least 2 holidays a year, and now the bank owns it.........again)

Tar.Aldarion

No way I'd want a house unless rich...You can't move around as freely etc pointless and boring being in same place

gilberto_eire

gilberto_eire wrote: »

They are some poor comparisons tbh.

So paying rent of on average of E70 per week to have absolutely nothing to show after it at the end is better then buying a house and one day not having to pay anything but bills?

What on earth is this "nothing to show after it" business? You have nothing to show after buying and eating your food either.
You pay to get shelter and flexibility. You have a home for all the time you're paying rent. You can buy a house if you are that obsessed with owning it, but that doesn't make rent "wasted money" just because you get something different from it

kippy

whiteonion wrote: »

Why is this country obsessed with homeownership? In many other countries people who have advanced quite far in their careers, work in middle management etc are happy to let their families live in a rented flat, whereas in Ireland people have been buying apartment as soon as they get their first graduate job.

I don't understand this obsession at all, me I never owned a house and I'm happy to rent.

Theres actually no problems at all with a person wanting to own their own house. None, zero. Its quite sad that the lesson that many people tend to draw from the events of the past few years revolves around the fact that owning ones own house is a bad thing.
The issues occur when that want, as you say, generates into an obsession sometimes driven by media and those with vested interests in it.
Ultimately the person buying the property needs to weigh up a large amount of pros and cons to see if buying a property at a particular time suits them

As others have said, you are happy to rent now, however renting in this country is VERY unfamily and un elderly friendly, things have to change.

I've rented when it suited me. When it suited me to buy I bought, I have a property which I weighed up the pros and cons of buying.

AckwelFoley

gilberto_eire wrote: »

They are some poor comparisons tbh.

So paying rent of on average of E70 per week to have absolutely nothing to show after it at the end is better then buying a house and one day not having to pay anything but bills?

70 euro a week that you can walk away from.

You wont get a mortgage for 70 quid a week.

You will be paying a significant sum of your money to the bank every month for the greater part of your adult life.

I do believe in owning your own home. But the "rent is dead money" is a theory sold to us by the banks that has got alot of people into financial bother

m5ex9oqjawdg2i

The-Rigger wrote: »

We have poor rights as tenants, it won't change unless that changes.

What? Have you any idea of what you are talking about? It's the landlords that don't have many rights. The law is very much in the favour of the tenant. Just because you don't know your rights, doesn't mean you don't have any. I'd say you never even investigated or tried to find out your rights as a tenant.

squeakyduck wrote: »

Rent is wasted money, its of benefit to you as you get a house to stay in and live but it's not going anywhere you're no closer to having your own house.

Personally I'd love to own my own house. I'd love to have somewhere permanent to have all my stuff and a house to come home to.

Rent is not wasted money. You get to live in a house/apartment which you pay for. You're statement is ilogical.

It would be nice to own a house or two, but then you're stuck there for some time. You're not going to sell it too fast in this climate. 40 years of debts? No thanks.

Because most landlords are ****.

kippy

snyper wrote: »

70 euro a week that you can walk away from.

You wont get a mortgage for 70 quid a week.

You will be paying a significant sum of your money to the bank every month for the greater part of your adult life.

I do believe in owning your own home. But the "rent is dead money" is a theory sold to us by the banks that has got alot of people into financial bother

Again,
it all depends on your circumstances.
There were many people in this country who bought houses within their means and at mortgage rates that compared favorable to rental prices at the time.

Also, the "obsession" didnt really cover everyone, from reading these boards, there were plenty people who never bought a house and continue to rent. I am sure however, that when the notice that financially it would make more sense to buy and when their own situation changes, I am sure they will buy.

Doublin

Yes, whenever I met up with the father during the late 90's/00's, first question from him was why haven't you bought a house in Ireland yet.

I tried to argue with him that the price increases were unsustainable, Ireland were not a special case to similiar house bubbles historically around the world & I was used to the way things were done on the continent.

In fairness, he came out on top, both him & his partner sold their houses in Dublin & moved to the country comfortably but I never saw myself committing to staying in Ireland for life.

rossie1977

ireland has the highest home ownership in the developed world

kippy

Samara White Washboard wrote: »

What? Have you any idea of what you are talking about? It's the landlords that don't have many rights. The law is very much in the favour of the tenant. Just because you don't know your rights, doesn't mean you don't have any. I'd say you never even investigated or tried to find out your rights as a tenant.



Rent is not wasted money. You get to live in a house/apartment which you pay for. You're statement is ilogical.

It would be nice to own a house or two, but then you're stuck there for some time. You're not going to sell it too fast in this climate. 40 years of debts? No thanks.

Again,
A lot of people make assumptions about all mortgage holders.
The main on is that they have taken out 40 year mortgages.
The next on is that they took out 100% mortgages. (even that they put cars onto these mortgages)

And finally that they intend selling their houses at some stage.

You'll find that the vast majority of mortgage holders DO NOT fall within these strict criteria.

ballsymchugh

it may have something to do with wanting to have something substantial to pass to the next generation. if you die in a rented house, you leave someone else to pick up the tab.

bluefinger

this might sound silly whiteonion but can you provide some evidence that Irish people are obsessed with home ownership?

rossie1977

bluefinger wrote: »

this might sound silly whiteonion but can you provide some evidence that Irish people are obsessed with home ownership?

post 23 should do it

mikom

whiteonion wrote: »

Why is this country obsessed with homeownership?

They're all hopped up on sugar.
First you get the sugar, then you get the power, then you get the house.

bluefinger

rossie1977 wrote: »

post 23 should do it

post 23 says nothing about obsession in fairness

kippy

rossie1977 wrote: »

ireland has the highest home ownership in the developed world

11 year old Data?

Bearing in mind that was before the tiger years.

AckwelFoley

Deleted User wrote: »

Because most landlords are ****.

:mad:

Agricola

Id definitely go along with argument that it is related to centuries of renting land from British gentry, the dream of owning your own patch is deeply engendered into us. Also theres the minor matter of "blowing"! Alot of Irish people like nothing better than getting the keys to a bigger house than their neighbours and friends and feeling well pleased with themselves.

chopser

gilberto_eire wrote: »

They are some poor comparisons tbh.

So paying rent of on average of E70 per week to have absolutely nothing to show after it at the end is better then buying a house and one day not having to pay anything but bills?

Oh by the way

Bus- cheaper costs, you don't need to pay tax, insurance, cars eventually have ZERO value.

As for the farm compared to a shop.... I needn't get into that one

The rent is dead money is a terrible argument especially as the interest on most mortgages are up to and over 100.00 per week.

kippy

chopser wrote: »

The rent is dead money is a terrible argument especially as the interest on most mortgages are up to and over 100.00 per week.

Source.

AckwelFoley

kippy wrote: »

11 year old Data?

Bearing in mind that was before the tiger years.

compared to most of europe, particularly holland, we irish do have an obsession.

Ill quantify that by saying We have an obsession with the GAA... i don and many are the same, but there is a significant majority that do

Jesus Wept

whiteonion wrote: »

Compared to what other countries?

Others mentioned, add in Germany too.

ntlbell

gilberto_eire wrote: »

They are some poor comparisons tbh.

So paying rent of on average of E70 per week to have absolutely nothing to show after it at the end is better then buying a house and one day not having to pay anything but bills?

Oh by the way

Bus- cheaper costs, you don't need to pay tax, insurance, cars eventually have ZERO value.

As for the farm compared to a shop.... I needn't get into that one

What do you have to show for it paying your NTL/UPC bill?

Your phone bill?

a meal in a restraunt?

You paid for a service you got a service.

Paying rent is the exact same thing, services rendered.

Interest on mortges, again, services rendered.

Getting a 40yr mortgaes buying a home for 400k paying a shed load of interest each month the house been worth now 200k and you can't sell can't move.

It all depends on your own personal situation, but not having anything to "show" for rent is a retarded argument.

m5ex9oqjawdg2i

kippy wrote: »

Again,
A lot of people make assumptions about all mortgage holders.
The main on is that they have taken out 40 year mortgages.
The next on is that they took out 100% mortgages. (even that they put cars onto these mortgages)

And finally that they intend selling their houses at some stage.

You'll find that the vast majority of mortgage holders DO NOT fall within these strict criteria.

They are not assumptions about everyone who owns a mortgage.

I would need a 40 year mortgage to buy a house where I would like to live (those mortgages don't exist now as far as I am aware)

Many people took out 100% mortgages, some even took out 110% mortgages when they were available. Now, you need to source between 8% and 20% of the mortgage yourself, in most cases.

About selling your home, the choice is there. Nobody can say "I'm buying this home and living here for the next 50-60 years, a lot could happen in 5-10 years and your opinions can change a lot in that time. With renting a house, you give your notice and move. If you own a house it's a totally different story. You could be trying to sell for years.

Agricola wrote: »

Id definitely go along with argument that it is related to centuries of renting land from British gentry, the dream of owning your own patch is deeply engendered into us. Also theres the minor matter of "blowing"! Alot of Irish people like nothing better than getting the keys to a bigger house than their neighbours and friends and feeling well pleased with themselves.

WTF is this? :eek:

snyper

snyper wrote: »

:mad:

Most landlords. Not you, obviously.

kippy

snyper wrote: »

compared to most of europe, particularly holland, we irish do have an obsession.

Ill quantify that by saying We have an obsession with the GAA... i don and many are the same, but there is a significant majority that do

"An obsession with the GAA"
Are you being serious?

alb

what all the poeple who say rent is dead/wasted money seem to forget is how much interest you pay on a mortgage. Mortgage interest is just as much dead/wasted money as rent is.

To anyone who thinks this, how much interest do you think is paid on over the lifetime of a mortgage of say 250,000 over 25 years? I'm interested in your estimate, can you even guess to the nearest 50,000?

Buying is probably better than renting if you have cash to buy, if you're just borrowing to buy you need to do some serious maths to know which is actually the 'waste' of money.

Copper23

whiteonion wrote: »

Why is this country obsessed with homeownership? In many other countries people who have advanced quite far in their careers, work in middle management etc are happy to let their families live in a rented flat, whereas in Ireland people have been buying apartment as soon as they get their first graduate job.

I don't understand this obsession at all, me I never owned a house and I'm happy to rent.

So you're basically saying that people who own their own home are wrong?

So... Land and property is valuable, despite whatever fluctuations there have been over the past few years or will be again, it is still the most valuable thing 99% of people will ever own.
It's you're house/land, you can do as you please with it, not expect others to maintain and not allow you hang a shelve ffs!
I'd say the main thing really is having something of value to pass. When you are gone your family is provided for by your ownership of the land.

kippy

alb wrote: »

what all the poeple who say rent is dead/wasted money seem to forget is how much interest you pay on a mortgage. Mortgage interest is just as much dead/wasted money as rent is.

To anyone who thinks this, how much interest do you think is paid on over the lifetime of a mortgage of say 250,000? I'm interested in your estimate, can you even guess to the nearest 50,000?

Buying is probably better than renting if you have cash to buy, if you're just borrowing to buy you need to do some serious maths to know which is actually the 'waste' of money.

Indeed you are paying for the facility of the mortgage (loan) and its not something "MOST" people forget, especially those that pay a mortgage.
The interest paid on the lifetime of a 250000 K mortgage is obviously varient on three factors:
1. The average interest rates over the term of the mortgage (variable, fixed, tracker - averaged out)
2. The term of the repayments.
3. Whether or not the mortgage holder "Overpays" the mortgage at any stage.


You can work it out and change the three variables on this site:
http://www.drcalculator.com/mortgage/

Its obviously a significant amount of money but if you make the calculations that you can afford it and it fits your life choices, I dont see what the issues are.

Just as an aside,
Even if we had a country full of "renters" - there would obviously have to be a large number of people who owned these premises in the first place.......investors.

sink

'Rent is wasted money' 'Mortgage is a burden'

When you purchase a house with a mortgage what you are doing is purchasing a liability. You now owe a financial institution your future earnings and you will have to plan your life around paying it back which will possibly take a few decades. Paying rent means not owing anybody, you are foot loose and fancy free, you can take opportunities as they come without being tied down/held back by financial burdens.

Now each has their own advantages and disadvantages. Each will suit different people at different times in their lives. Everyone should go with whatever meets their individual needs and will allow them to plan successfully for the future they want. There is no absolute right and wrong and so this debate is somewhat pointless.

fontanalis

squeakyduck wrote: »

Rent is wasted money, its of benefit to you as you get a house to stay in and live but it's not going anywhere you're no closer to having your own house.

Personally I'd love to own my own house. I'd love to have somewhere permanent to have all my stuff and a house to come home to.

And interest on an overpriced slum is what?

alb

kippy wrote: »

Source.

Using the link you just provided 25 years for 250k would be 188k interest, (188 % 25) % 52 = 144 interest per week, for example.

J K

alb wrote: »

what all the poeple who say rent is dead/wasted money seem to forget is how much interest you pay on a mortgage. Mortgage interest is just as much dead/wasted money as rent is.

To anyone who thinks this, how much interest do you think is paid on over the lifetime of a mortgage of say 250,000 over 25 years? I'm interested in your estimate, can you even guess to the nearest 50,000?

Buying is probably better than renting if you have cash to buy, if you're just borrowing to buy you need to do some serious maths to know which is actually the 'waste' of money.

It would be at least the capital sum.
What is the real value of your total repayment when inflation is factored in.
People bought houses in 1982 for 15,000 pounds. They could have repaid the mortgage in the mid nineties with the equivalent of a small car loan.

The euro is supposed to minimize inflation but in the long run wages will go up and prices will go up. Year by year. So over time your loan including interest becomes smaller relative to your income.

Lawrence1895

alb wrote: »

what all the poeple who say rent is dead/wasted money seem to forget is how much interest you pay on a mortgage. Mortgage interest is just as much dead/wasted money as rent is.

To anyone who thinks this, how much interest do you think is paid on over the lifetime of a mortgage of say 250,000 over 25 years? I'm interested in your estimate, can you even guess to the nearest 50,000?

Buying is probably better than renting if you have cash to buy, if you're just borrowing to buy you need to do some serious maths to know which is actually the 'waste' of money.

Don't know, but maybe it's always some kind of enthusiasm...hurray, I have my own house...but a rude awakening might follow, once you are not able to pay back your mortgage.

And always remember...if you have a decent landlord and something needs to be fixed in the house, it's up to him to pay the bill, unless you have caused the damage. It's the gas boiler serviced, new tiles on the roof after a storm and things like that.

Last but not least, in Germany you sometimes have to move with your job...one more of many advantages in renting a place

kippy

alb wrote: »

Using the link you just provided 25 years for 250k would be 188k interest, (188 % 25) % 52 = 144 interest per week, for example.

That is NOT a source for the statement you made previously.
I'll recap:
You said - "The rent is dead money is a terrible argument especially as the interest on most mortgages are up to and over 100.00 per week"

To make that statement you need to have two figures: ( I will assume you want to set the context to within Ireland, covering principle private residences only)
1. Details of all of all mortgages within this criteria. (Total number of mortgages)
2. The interest being charged weekly on each of these mortgages.

You dont have access to either of these figures (if you have please provide) so how can you make the statement that the interest on MOST mortgages is up to and over 100.00 per week?


The link I posted is a calculator that can be used to work out some figures and play around with some figures, it doesnt provide the statistical data that your statement requires.

alb

J K wrote: »

The euro is supposed to minimize inflation but in the long run wages will go up and prices will go up. Year by year. So over time your loan including interest becomes smaller relative to your income.

I know, but I guess people that bought in 2007 are not experiencing that. Their house is on average back to a 2001 price. That's a lot of making up to do and prices are still dropping.

I see your point and I understand over the lifetime of a mortgage a house will usually gain value, but it has to gain quite a bit in order for the purchase to be the best decision from a purely financial point of view.

fontanalis

kippy wrote: »

That is NOT a source for the statement you made previously.
I'll recap:
You said - "The rent is dead money is a terrible argument especially as the interest on most mortgages are up to and over 100.00 per week"

To make that statement you need to have two figures: ( I will assume you want to set the context to within Ireland, covering principle private residences only)
1. Details of all of all mortgages within this criteria. (Total number of mortgages)
2. The interest being charged weekly on each of these mortgages.

You dont have access to either of these figures (if you have please provide) so how can you make the statement that the interest on MOST mortgages is up to and over 100.00 per week?


The link I posted is a calculator that can be used to work out some figures and play around with some figures, it doesnt provide the statistical data that your statement requires.

Use the cumint function on excel. You can do rough calculations. At the start of the mortgage you pay massive amounts of interest. Then there's the wonderful interest only mortgages.