Obsession with homeownership

Agricola · 15-01-2011 04:43PM

Id definitely go along with argument that it is related to centuries of renting land from British gentry, the dream of owning your own patch is deeply engendered into us. Also theres the minor matter of "blowing"! Alot of Irish people like nothing better than getting the keys to a bigger house than their neighbours and friends and feeling well pleased with themselves.

chopser · 15-01-2011 04:44PM

gilberto_eire wrote: »

They are some poor comparisons tbh.

So paying rent of on average of E70 per week to have absolutely nothing to show after it at the end is better then buying a house and one day not having to pay anything but bills?

Oh by the way

Bus- cheaper costs, you don't need to pay tax, insurance, cars eventually have ZERO value.

As for the farm compared to a shop.... I needn't get into that one

The rent is dead money is a terrible argument especially as the interest on most mortgages are up to and over 100.00 per week.

kippy · 15-01-2011 04:45PM

chopser wrote: »

The rent is dead money is a terrible argument especially as the interest on most mortgages are up to and over 100.00 per week.

Source.

AckwelFoley · 15-01-2011 04:46PM

kippy wrote: »

11 year old Data?

Bearing in mind that was before the tiger years.

compared to most of europe, particularly holland, we irish do have an obsession.

Ill quantify that by saying We have an obsession with the GAA... i don and many are the same, but there is a significant majority that do

Jesus Wept · 15-01-2011 04:46PM

whiteonion wrote: »

Compared to what other countries?

Others mentioned, add in Germany too.

ntlbell · 15-01-2011 04:49PM

gilberto_eire wrote: »

They are some poor comparisons tbh.

So paying rent of on average of E70 per week to have absolutely nothing to show after it at the end is better then buying a house and one day not having to pay anything but bills?

Oh by the way

Bus- cheaper costs, you don't need to pay tax, insurance, cars eventually have ZERO value.

As for the farm compared to a shop.... I needn't get into that one

What do you have to show for it paying your NTL/UPC bill?

Your phone bill?

a meal in a restraunt?

You paid for a service you got a service.

Paying rent is the exact same thing, services rendered.

Interest on mortges, again, services rendered.

Getting a 40yr mortgaes buying a home for 400k paying a shed load of interest each month the house been worth now 200k and you can't sell can't move.

It all depends on your own personal situation, but not having anything to "show" for rent is a retarded argument.

m5ex9oqjawdg2i · 15-01-2011 04:51PM

kippy wrote: »

Again,
A lot of people make assumptions about all mortgage holders.
The main on is that they have taken out 40 year mortgages.
The next on is that they took out 100% mortgages. (even that they put cars onto these mortgages)

And finally that they intend selling their houses at some stage.

You'll find that the vast majority of mortgage holders DO NOT fall within these strict criteria.

They are not assumptions about everyone who owns a mortgage.

I would need a 40 year mortgage to buy a house where I would like to live (those mortgages don't exist now as far as I am aware)

Many people took out 100% mortgages, some even took out 110% mortgages when they were available. Now, you need to source between 8% and 20% of the mortgage yourself, in most cases.

About selling your home, the choice is there. Nobody can say "I'm buying this home and living here for the next 50-60 years, a lot could happen in 5-10 years and your opinions can change a lot in that time. With renting a house, you give your notice and move. If you own a house it's a totally different story. You could be trying to sell for years.

Agricola wrote: »

Id definitely go along with argument that it is related to centuries of renting land from British gentry, the dream of owning your own patch is deeply engendered into us. Also theres the minor matter of "blowing"! Alot of Irish people like nothing better than getting the keys to a bigger house than their neighbours and friends and feeling well pleased with themselves.

WTF is this? :eek:

15-01-2011 04:52PM

snyper wrote: »

:mad:

Most landlords. Not you, obviously.

kippy · 15-01-2011 04:52PM

snyper wrote: »

compared to most of europe, particularly holland, we irish do have an obsession.

Ill quantify that by saying We have an obsession with the GAA... i don and many are the same, but there is a significant majority that do

"An obsession with the GAA"
Are you being serious?

alb · 15-01-2011 04:52PM

what all the poeple who say rent is dead/wasted money seem to forget is how much interest you pay on a mortgage. Mortgage interest is just as much dead/wasted money as rent is.

To anyone who thinks this, how much interest do you think is paid on over the lifetime of a mortgage of say 250,000 over 25 years? I'm interested in your estimate, can you even guess to the nearest 50,000?

Buying is probably better than renting if you have cash to buy, if you're just borrowing to buy you need to do some serious maths to know which is actually the 'waste' of money.

Copper23 · 15-01-2011 04:56PM

whiteonion wrote: »

Why is this country obsessed with homeownership? In many other countries people who have advanced quite far in their careers, work in middle management etc are happy to let their families live in a rented flat, whereas in Ireland people have been buying apartment as soon as they get their first graduate job.

I don't understand this obsession at all, me I never owned a house and I'm happy to rent.

So you're basically saying that people who own their own home are wrong?

So... Land and property is valuable, despite whatever fluctuations there have been over the past few years or will be again, it is still the most valuable thing 99% of people will ever own.
It's you're house/land, you can do as you please with it, not expect others to maintain and not allow you hang a shelve ffs!
I'd say the main thing really is having something of value to pass. When you are gone your family is provided for by your ownership of the land.

kippy · 15-01-2011 04:57PM

alb wrote: »

what all the poeple who say rent is dead/wasted money seem to forget is how much interest you pay on a mortgage. Mortgage interest is just as much dead/wasted money as rent is.

To anyone who thinks this, how much interest do you think is paid on over the lifetime of a mortgage of say 250,000? I'm interested in your estimate, can you even guess to the nearest 50,000?

Buying is probably better than renting if you have cash to buy, if you're just borrowing to buy you need to do some serious maths to know which is actually the 'waste' of money.

Indeed you are paying for the facility of the mortgage (loan) and its not something "MOST" people forget, especially those that pay a mortgage.
The interest paid on the lifetime of a 250000 K mortgage is obviously varient on three factors:
1. The average interest rates over the term of the mortgage (variable, fixed, tracker - averaged out)
2. The term of the repayments.
3. Whether or not the mortgage holder "Overpays" the mortgage at any stage.

You can work it out and change the three variables on this site:
http://www.drcalculator.com/mortgage/

Its obviously a significant amount of money but if you make the calculations that you can afford it and it fits your life choices, I dont see what the issues are.

Just as an aside,
Even if we had a country full of "renters" - there would obviously have to be a large number of people who owned these premises in the first place.......investors.

sink · 15-01-2011 04:58PM

'Rent is wasted money' 'Mortgage is a burden'

When you purchase a house with a mortgage what you are doing is purchasing a liability. You now owe a financial institution your future earnings and you will have to plan your life around paying it back which will possibly take a few decades. Paying rent means not owing anybody, you are foot loose and fancy free, you can take opportunities as they come without being tied down/held back by financial burdens.

Now each has their own advantages and disadvantages. Each will suit different people at different times in their lives. Everyone should go with whatever meets their individual needs and will allow them to plan successfully for the future they want. There is no absolute right and wrong and so this debate is somewhat pointless.

fontanalis · 15-01-2011 05:01PM

squeakyduck wrote: »

Rent is wasted money, its of benefit to you as you get a house to stay in and live but it's not going anywhere you're no closer to having your own house.

Personally I'd love to own my own house. I'd love to have somewhere permanent to have all my stuff and a house to come home to.

And interest on an overpriced slum is what?

alb · 15-01-2011 05:01PM

kippy wrote: »

Source.

Using the link you just provided 25 years for 250k would be 188k interest, (188 % 25) % 52 = 144 interest per week, for example.

J K · 15-01-2011 05:03PM

alb wrote: »

what all the poeple who say rent is dead/wasted money seem to forget is how much interest you pay on a mortgage. Mortgage interest is just as much dead/wasted money as rent is.

To anyone who thinks this, how much interest do you think is paid on over the lifetime of a mortgage of say 250,000 over 25 years? I'm interested in your estimate, can you even guess to the nearest 50,000?

Buying is probably better than renting if you have cash to buy, if you're just borrowing to buy you need to do some serious maths to know which is actually the 'waste' of money.

It would be at least the capital sum.
What is the real value of your total repayment when inflation is factored in.
People bought houses in 1982 for 15,000 pounds. They could have repaid the mortgage in the mid nineties with the equivalent of a small car loan.

The euro is supposed to minimize inflation but in the long run wages will go up and prices will go up. Year by year. So over time your loan including interest becomes smaller relative to your income.

Lawrence1895 · 15-01-2011 05:05PM

alb wrote: »

what all the poeple who say rent is dead/wasted money seem to forget is how much interest you pay on a mortgage. Mortgage interest is just as much dead/wasted money as rent is.

To anyone who thinks this, how much interest do you think is paid on over the lifetime of a mortgage of say 250,000 over 25 years? I'm interested in your estimate, can you even guess to the nearest 50,000?

Buying is probably better than renting if you have cash to buy, if you're just borrowing to buy you need to do some serious maths to know which is actually the 'waste' of money.

Don't know, but maybe it's always some kind of enthusiasm...hurray, I have my own house...but a rude awakening might follow, once you are not able to pay back your mortgage.

And always remember...if you have a decent landlord and something needs to be fixed in the house, it's up to him to pay the bill, unless you have caused the damage. It's the gas boiler serviced, new tiles on the roof after a storm and things like that.

Last but not least, in Germany you sometimes have to move with your job...one more of many advantages in renting a place

kippy · 15-01-2011 05:06PM

alb wrote: »

Using the link you just provided 25 years for 250k would be 188k interest, (188 % 25) % 52 = 144 interest per week, for example.

That is NOT a source for the statement you made previously.
I'll recap:
You said - "The rent is dead money is a terrible argument especially as the interest on most mortgages are up to and over 100.00 per week"

To make that statement you need to have two figures: ( I will assume you want to set the context to within Ireland, covering principle private residences only)
1. Details of all of all mortgages within this criteria. (Total number of mortgages)
2. The interest being charged weekly on each of these mortgages.

You dont have access to either of these figures (if you have please provide) so how can you make the statement that the interest on MOST mortgages is up to and over 100.00 per week?

The link I posted is a calculator that can be used to work out some figures and play around with some figures, it doesnt provide the statistical data that your statement requires.

alb · 15-01-2011 05:08PM

J K wrote: »

The euro is supposed to minimize inflation but in the long run wages will go up and prices will go up. Year by year. So over time your loan including interest becomes smaller relative to your income.

I know, but I guess people that bought in 2007 are not experiencing that. Their house is on average back to a 2001 price. That's a lot of making up to do and prices are still dropping.

I see your point and I understand over the lifetime of a mortgage a house will usually gain value, but it has to gain quite a bit in order for the purchase to be the best decision from a purely financial point of view.

fontanalis · 15-01-2011 05:08PM

kippy wrote: »

That is NOT a source for the statement you made previously.
I'll recap:
You said - "The rent is dead money is a terrible argument especially as the interest on most mortgages are up to and over 100.00 per week"

To make that statement you need to have two figures: ( I will assume you want to set the context to within Ireland, covering principle private residences only)
1. Details of all of all mortgages within this criteria. (Total number of mortgages)
2. The interest being charged weekly on each of these mortgages.

You dont have access to either of these figures (if you have please provide) so how can you make the statement that the interest on MOST mortgages is up to and over 100.00 per week?

The link I posted is a calculator that can be used to work out some figures and play around with some figures, it doesnt provide the statistical data that your statement requires.

Use the cumint function on excel. You can do rough calculations. At the start of the mortgage you pay massive amounts of interest. Then there's the wonderful interest only mortgages.

Tubsandtiles · 15-01-2011 05:10PM

Because we have all watched "The Field" and know when you have worked hard enough for something in life it should be yours

alb · 15-01-2011 05:10PM

kippy wrote: »

That is NOT a source for the statement you made previously.
I'll recap:
You said - "The rent is dead money is a terrible argument especially as the interest on most mortgages are up to and over 100.00 per week"

I never said that, a different poster did. I merely pointed out that that's a likely figure (in fact probably a bit low). If you're so sure it's wrong what do you suggest is the average weekly interest paid by mortgage holders?

AckwelFoley · 15-01-2011 05:10PM

kippy wrote: »

"An obsession with the GAA"
Are you being serious?

Its only an example perhaps a bad one, but essentially my point is it is prevalent among the population

kippy · 15-01-2011 05:11PM

fontanalis wrote: »

Use the cumint function on excel. You can do rough calculations. At the start of the mortgage you pay massive amounts of interest. Then there's the wonderful interest only mortgages.

I have a basic grasp of maths and am well aware of that.

However making those calculations DO NOT back up the statement that alb made previously.

You cant back up that statement WITHOUT access to the figures I mentioned.

Kintarō Hattori · 15-01-2011 05:11PM

I've rented for the last 8 years and to be honest I'm sick of it. Good landlords are hard to find and most letting agents are just unpleasant. You can't alter the accommodation in anyway. If you don't want a piece of furniture chances are they won't take it away unless they have a lock-up which most don't.

When I'm 65 I'll hopefully have the mortgage paid off. If I rent and retired I'd still have a huge outlay every month.

kelle · 15-01-2011 05:13PM

snyper wrote: »

70 euro a week that you can walk away from.

You wont get a mortgage for 70 quid a week.

You will be paying a significant sum of your money to the bank every month for the greater part of your adult life.

I do believe in owning your own home. But the "rent is dead money" is a theory sold to us by the banks that has got alot of people into financial bother

I was paying £240 rent per month (in 1997). My husband complained it was dead money, he eventually persuaded me to buy a house which I was very reluctant to do, until the landlord raised the rent to £300.

We bought a house, repayments were £200 per month - but it was costing us £1000 per month to get the house in a liveable state (spent most of that time living in one room!), but eventually we were just paying the mortgage.

Now the house is our own, if we had continued renting we would be paying considerably more than we did then - and nothing to show for it.

DISCLAIMER: I'm speaking about a time when banks only lent money that the borrower could pay back - before they started reckless lending.

kippy · 15-01-2011 05:14PM

alb wrote: »

I never said that, a different poster did. I merely pointed out that that's a likely figure (in fact probably a bit low). If you're so sure it's wrong what do you suggest is the average weekly interest paid by mortgage holders?

Apologies for attributing that statement to you, but that is the source I was looking for, and not the one you provided.

I am not sure its wrong. Just point out that you cannot make a statement like that without having some form of backup (when I say you I mean anyone)

I know my weekly interest, its well below €100 a week, I can tell you that much for nothing, but that proves nothing.

alb · 15-01-2011 05:14PM

Kippy I've provided example figures from a calculator you posted. Obviously each mortgage is different but there's no reaosn to believe my figures were unusual in any way.

Either come back to me with some examples of maths that prove me wrong or gtfo.

Run_to_da_hills · 15-01-2011 05:16PM

It used to be the case that it was better to own your own property but now with negative equety and falling rents with competition on the market it is becoming more attractive not to own.

Renting also offers the advantage of flexibility, ie those that loose their jobs can pack up their bags with a months notice and feck off abroad. Try doing this with a 200K+ mortgage strapped around your neck.

Houses that were once an asset to people are now turning into liabilities.

kippy · 15-01-2011 05:16PM

alb wrote: »

Kippy I've provided example figures from a calculator you posted. Obviously each mortgage is different but there's no reaosn to believe my figures were unusual in any way.

Either come back to me with some examples of maths that prove me wrong or gtfo.

gtfo?
Are you serious?

You have provided figures, that I am well aware of, of how much the interest can be on a mortgage given some variables.
What you have not done is given evidence to suggest that the interest on most mortgages is over 100 per week. You cannot possibly provide that evidence without having access to some more information.
I know you did not make that statement, but that statement is essentially what you are trying to prove.

Obsession with homeownership

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