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Why can't we neutralise the world and start again?

2

Comments

  • #32
    af_thefragile
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,161 ✭✭✭af_thefragile


    newmug wrote: »
    My opinion is BAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

    Oh to be young and innocent again................. like 4 years old!


    See Fragle, the problem is this:

    1) You WILL find it hard to get a job when you leave college. Thats life. But lets say you emigrate and find one.

    2) Then, you WILL need somewhere to live. Lets say you take home $500 in your new job (brilliant for a starting wage!), and you find a grand little apartment for $100 per week, so you're now left with $400

    3) You WILL need to eat. Say $50 per week. So you're down to $350 left.

    4) You WILL need transport, clothes, electricity, heating oil etc., so say thats another $100 per week on average. Now you have $250 left.

    5) Assuming you remain a batchelor for the rest of your life, and dont have kids to feed and clothe, there WILL be other unforseen expenses. Say you buy a car every 4 years for 10 grand, thats $50 a week on average.


    So Fragle, you have $200 to save at the end of each week. Thats $10,400 in savings per year. That means, to buy a very mediocre semi-d either in Ireland or some similar western country, say at $208,000, would take you 20 YEARS to save for! If you're 23 now, you'll be 43 when you have enough to start looking:eek::eek::eek:

    Most people say "Feck that, life's too short. I'll borrow it now, live my life, and pay it back in manageable chunks over my lifetime". If you do that, you save the extra for the interest by cutting out rent straight away, your home is your own, it would be much bigger than a dingy $100 apartment, you're your own boss in it, and you can always sell it.

    As you know, this is the option most people go for!

    So pressing the reset button on the worlds economy or not, you cannot change the factor of time. Its a balance between having what you want now and paying a bit extra in interest for it, or letting life pass you by while you save for something and then die. There will always be banks, and interest, and loans.

    Well... actually...

    1. I will have a job before I leave the college. I have two years to make sure I do well in my exams and find decent electives to be able to get the job.

    2. I might earn a bit more than $500 a week. But $500 is reasonable. I only buy things I need but yeah, I don't expect to be saving much.

    3. I plan on doing some other things that'll earn me money. If they don't work out, I'll still have my $500 a week job. And may pay is going to increase too as I move up the ladder.

    4. Don't plan on remaining a batchelor for the rest of my life. But anyway, I'm not going to buy a house till I have the money for it. Till then I'll be happy in a rented house. I really don't like the idea of mortgage and paying massive interest for it for the rest of your life. Rather just stick with a rented house. Also I'm not going to stay in the same place for a long time. I plan on moving around.

    And I have what I want now. Owning a bigger house isn't going to change anything. I don't need a big place to live. Just a decent clean place will do.
    If the other things I plan to do work out and I manage to make more money than what I get from my job, then I'll have more savings and will be able to buy a house.

    Most people have bought into the option of mortgaging a house and now they're stuck with a mortgage for life which they can't pay off.
    I'ld like to be a bit more free. Sure paying rent's going to be expensive if you look at it in the long run, but atleast you can move places if you find a better place and you don't have to worry about interest and such. And as I stated, I'm not really gonna be in one place for long. I'm going to USA after I graduate (might stay here for a year or two if I get a decent job here) but I don't plan on staying there for much longer. Maybe 5-6 years and I'll move to somewhere else and such.


  • #33
    Kefa
    Closed Accounts Posts: 44 ✭Kefa


    What makes a man turn neutral? Lust for gold? Power? Or were you just born with a heart full of neutrality?


  • #34
    ejmaztec
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,369 ✭✭✭✭ejmaztec


    "Hey Chinese, how do you feel about a reset?"

    "Fuck Yu paupers"


  • #35
    af_thefragile
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,161 ✭✭✭af_thefragile


    bluewolf wrote: »
    OP:
    http://www.lietaer.com/2010/03/the-worgl-experiment/

    Guess how that one ended - the banks

    The central banks used their power to end the system which seemed to be working perfectly for the people.

    Why should the people listen to the central bank. Say feck the central bank and keep doing our thing. What are they going to do? Imprison the whole country? Send an army to fight against the own civilians who are just upholding their rights?

    This is the ridiculous fascist face of today's government hiding behind its mask of democracy.

    Democracy means the people are in power, they run the state through their vote and representative candidates. Plutocracy means a bunch of rich elite like bankers and in power and they decide how the state is run.

    Why do we let these rich elite own our lives? Why do we have to take part in their system? A system that enslaves us in debt and we didn't vote for or bring upon ourselves.

    Why can't the towns and villages say, screw the corrupt system, we're going to run our town/village our own way. Set up their own schools, set up their own farms and industries. If many towns/villages do it together, they can share the resources between them and trade the goods. Such a system will create employment for all the people of the communities. It'll develop the towns and village economies in a debt free system. It'll provide enough resources for all the people to survive.

    It only takes one small village to kick off the experiment. Say a small village in the middle of mayo or somewhere. They could decide to screw the government's system which has put them into debt and set up their own little micro economy. A village with 100-200 odd people, they could come together and decide they're going to start farming their own food, build houses themselves, pave roads, create water supplies, schools and small businesses, all by themselves. Create their own little monetary system to regulate the resources. This way everyone will have some form of employment. Everyone will be working towards developing the village resources and making sure there's enough food for everyone. They could sell their excess food and resources to generate extra revenue which could be used for buying necessary goods they can't build themselves such as farmyard equipment and such. If the neighbouring villages start doing the same thing, they can share their resources among the villages and this would reduce the burden of work among the villages as long as the villages decide to function on the new debt free monetary system. If the amount of money is tightly regulated and the village(s) keep sharing their resources and producing excess they can export. It'll quickly within a few years time set up a really strong and wealthy economy. Soon the poorest village in the country will become one of the wealthiest!

    Just as long as the banks stay out of it.


  • #36
    Yakult
    Moderators, Computer Games Moderators Posts: 7,943 Mod ✭✭✭✭Yakult


    af_thefragile wrote: »

    Why can't the towns and villages say, screw the corrupt system, we're going to run our town/village our own way. Set up their own schools, set up their own farms and industries. If many towns/villages do it together, they can share the resources between them and trade the goods. Such a system will create employment for all the people of the communities. It'll develop the towns and village economies in a debt free system. It'll provide enough resources for all the people to survive.

    It only takes one small village to kick off the experiment. Say a small village in the middle of mayo or somewhere. They could decide to screw the government's system which has put them into debt and set up their own little micro economy. A village with 100-200 odd people, they could come together and decide they're going to start farming their own food, build houses themselves, pave roads, create water supplies, schools and small businesses, all by themselves. Create their own little monetary system to regulate the resources. This way everyone will have some form of employment. Everyone will be working towards developing the village resources and making sure there's enough food for everyone. They could sell their excess food and resources to generate extra revenue which could be used for buying necessary goods they can't build themselves such as farmyard equipment and such. If the neighbouring villages start doing the same thing, they can share their resources among the villages and this would reduce the burden of work among the villages as long as the villages decide to function on the new debt free monetary system. If the amount of money is tightly regulated and the village(s) keep sharing their resources and producing excess they can export. It'll quickly within a few years time set up a really strong and wealthy economy. Soon the poorest village in the country will become one of the wealthiest!

    Just as long as the banks stay out of it.

    Didnt they try that hundreads/thousands of years ago?

    Turned out well.


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  • #37
    Iwannahurl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,156 ✭✭✭Iwannahurl


    af_thefragile wrote: »
    Almost every country is in debt. USA is fecked, Europe is fecked, Africa has been fecked since the beginning of civilization.

    Why can't we just tell the bankers to feck off, throw away all the money we have and start from new?? Where every country has zero debt and no one owes anything to anyone??

    Like pressing a giant 'reset' button for the world and bringing everything back to the starting point.

    Then we could all work together in building the world again properly this time without screwing up like last time. Learning from the mistakes of the past and all.

    Why can't all the countries just decide to stick up two fingers to the central banks and say "feck off, we're not paying you any debt anymore!!" and the banks won't really be able to do anything... Like what can they do? Fight us? Who would fight on their side?!!


    The thing is, the whole European colonial enterprise was in part driven, or at least influenced, by such Utopian notions. Perhaps that is why the term New World still exists.

    And how did Murka get from this to this?


  • #38
    ejmaztec
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,369 ✭✭✭✭ejmaztec


    af_thefragile wrote: »
    Why can't the towns and villages say, screw the corrupt system, we're going to run our town/village our own way. Set up their own schools, set up their own farms and industries. If many towns/villages do it together, they can share the resources between them and trade the goods. Such a system will create employment for all the people of the communities. It'll develop the towns and village economies in a debt free system. It'll provide enough resources for all the people to survive.

    It only takes one small village to kick off the experiment. Say a small village in the middle of mayo or somewhere. They could decide to screw the government's system which has put them into debt and set up their own little micro economy. A village with 100-200 odd people, they could come together and decide they're going to start farming their own food, build houses themselves, pave roads, create water supplies, schools and small businesses, all by themselves. Create their own little monetary system to regulate the resources. This way everyone will have some form of employment. Everyone will be working towards developing the village resources and making sure there's enough food for everyone. They could sell their excess food and resources to generate extra revenue which could be used for buying necessary goods they can't build themselves such as farmyard equipment and such. If the neighbouring villages start doing the same thing, they can share their resources among the villages and this would reduce the burden of work among the villages as long as the villages decide to function on the new debt free monetary system. If the amount of money is tightly regulated and the village(s) keep sharing their resources and producing excess they can export. It'll quickly within a few years time set up a really strong and wealthy economy. Soon the poorest village in the country will become one of the wealthiest!

    Just as long as the banks stay out of it.

    As well as the corrupt national elite, there is the corrupt local elite which seems to operate in all towns and villages. They're all a bunch of cliquey mini-megalomaniacs. None of them can be trusted to operate without their snouts in the trough.


  • #39
    chrisxii
    Closed Accounts Posts: 38 ✭chrisxii


    i would leave the banks alone it is the whole political side of things that need change all the cloak and dagger stuff that cheeses me of politicians lying through there teeth for what selling the country down the swanny for what ? money. a big pension. a free car. power. at least a thief will rob you then bugger off the politicians will rob you and milk you for every thing they can get...... the best thing to do is to start afresh with not only a new government but to scrap all the parties and bring in some new blood to run the country properly


  • #40
    Andres Chubby Puck
    Posts: 81,308 CMod ✭✭✭✭ Andres Chubby Puck


    af_thefragile wrote: »
    The central banks used their power to end the system which seemed to be working perfectly for the people.

    Why should the people listen to the central bank. Say feck the central bank and keep doing our thing. What are they going to do? Imprison the whole country? Send an army to fight against the own civilians who are just upholding their rights?

    This is the ridiculous fascist face of today's government hiding behind its mask of democracy.

    Democracy means the people are in power, they run the state through their vote and representative candidates. Plutocracy means a bunch of rich elite like bankers and in power and they decide how the state is run.

    Why do we let these rich elite own our lives? Why do we have to take part in their system? A system that enslaves us in debt and we didn't vote for or bring upon ourselves.

    Why can't the towns and villages say, screw the corrupt system, we're going to run our town/village our own way. Set up their own schools, set up their own farms and industries. If many towns/villages do it together, they can share the resources between them and trade the goods. Such a system will create employment for all the people of the communities. It'll develop the towns and village economies in a debt free system. It'll provide enough resources for all the people to survive.

    It only takes one small village to kick off the experiment. Say a small village in the middle of mayo or somewhere. They could decide to screw the government's system which has put them into debt and set up their own little micro economy. A village with 100-200 odd people, they could come together and decide they're going to start farming their own food, build houses themselves, pave roads, create water supplies, schools and small businesses, all by themselves. Create their own little monetary system to regulate the resources. This way everyone will have some form of employment. Everyone will be working towards developing the village resources and making sure there's enough food for everyone. They could sell their excess food and resources to generate extra revenue which could be used for buying necessary goods they can't build themselves such as farmyard equipment and such. If the neighbouring villages start doing the same thing, they can share their resources among the villages and this would reduce the burden of work among the villages as long as the villages decide to function on the new debt free monetary system. If the amount of money is tightly regulated and the village(s) keep sharing their resources and producing excess they can export. It'll quickly within a few years time set up a really strong and wealthy economy. Soon the poorest village in the country will become one of the wealthiest!

    Just as long as the banks stay out of it.

    The devaluing currency was the key factor in that one I think.
    But yeah, it'll mean legal action before long


  • #41
    Daroxtar
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,564 ✭✭✭Daroxtar


    af_thefragile wrote: »
    Well... actually...

    1. I will have a job before I leave the college. I have two years to make sure I do well in my exams and find decent electives to be able to get the job.

    2. I might earn a bit more than $500 a week. But $500 is reasonable. I only buy things I need but yeah, I don't expect to be saving much.

    3. I plan on doing some other things that'll earn me money. If they don't work out, I'll still have my $500 a week job. And may pay is going to increase too as I move up the ladder.

    4. Don't plan on remaining a batchelor for the rest of my life. But anyway, I'm not going to buy a house till I have the money for it. Till then I'll be happy in a rented house. I really don't like the idea of mortgage and paying massive interest for it for the rest of your life. Rather just stick with a rented house. Also I'm not going to stay in the same place for a long time. I plan on moving around.

    And I have what I want now. Owning a bigger house isn't going to change anything. I don't need a big place to live. Just a decent clean place will do.
    If the other things I plan to do work out and I manage to make more money than what I get from my job, then I'll have more savings and will be able to buy a house.

    Most people have bought into the option of mortgaging a house and now they're stuck with a mortgage for life which they can't pay off.
    I'ld like to be a bit more free. Sure paying rent's going to be expensive if you look at it in the long run, but atleast you can move places if you find a better place and you don't have to worry about interest and such. And as I stated, I'm not really gonna be in one place for long. I'm going to USA after I graduate (might stay here for a year or two if I get a decent job here) but I don't plan on staying there for much longer. Maybe 5-6 years and I'll move to somewhere else and such.


    Well firstly what are you studying, because if you're so absolutely sure you will find a job so easily then you must be an undertaker as thats the only line of work that's recession proof? I love your enthusiasm and self belief but I know scores of incredibly intelligent hard working people with relevant experience and degrees that haven't managed to find any work at all here.

    Secondly, and I demand the truth here, did you come up with your idea for this thread after reading this?
    Because tbh, my idea is far fukking superior. I see where you're coming from though and if my idea was implemented and I was put in charge I would let you be a minnion, so that's your employment prospect looking a bit rosier than it is now :)


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  • #42
    af_thefragile
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,161 ✭✭✭af_thefragile


    R_H_C_P wrote: »
    Didnt they try that hundreads/thousands of years ago?

    Turned out well.

    It did turn out quite well till the banks stepped in and started loaning out kingdoms money to fund their perpetual wars. If the banks wouldn't have had loaned out money, the kingdoms would have run out of money and stopped going to war anyway. This happened in Europe though.

    In other places everything was pretty good till the Brits and other colonialist nations stepped in. Sure they used to be small wars and feuds between kingdoms and tribes before but they at least didn't have a foreign nation exploiting their wealth and resources.


    And yes back then you had to worry about armies invading you and stay prepared for such. That's one thing you don't really have to worry about now. Unless the bankers decide to invade you.


  • #43
    Iwannahurl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,156 ✭✭✭Iwannahurl


    cuppa wrote: »
    good luck in your new planet



    A recurring theme in science fiction: world catastrophe followed by the search for a new beginning. It's been around a while.


  • #44
    Earthhorse
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,728 ✭✭✭✭Earthhorse


    af_thefragile wrote: »
    Almost every country is in debt. USA is fecked, Europe is fecked, Africa has been fecked since the beginning of civilization.

    Why can't we just tell the bankers to feck off, throw away all the money we have and start from new?? Where every country has zero debt and no one owes anything to anyone??

    Like pressing a giant 'reset' button for the world and bringing everything back to the starting point.

    Then we could all work together in building the world again properly this time without screwing up like last time. Learning from the mistakes of the past and all.

    Why can't all the countries just decide to stick up two fingers to the central banks and say "feck off, we're not paying you any debt anymore!!" and the banks won't really be able to do anything... Like what can they do? Fight us? Who would fight on their side?!!

    Wait a minute, wait a minute. af_thefragile? Your name is af_thefragile?

    I've been calling you at_thefragile all this time. :(


  • #45
    af_thefragile
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,161 ✭✭✭af_thefragile


    ^were you? I never noticed...
    Well, "the fragile" bit is like a tribute to NIN's "The Fragile" album which back in 2006 I believed was the greatest music album ever created. If I was to create a user name now, it'ld be something very different...
    Daroxtar wrote: »
    Well firstly what are you studying, because if you're so absolutely sure you will find a job so easily then you must be an undertaker as thats the only line of work that's recession proof? I love your enthusiasm and self belief but I know scores of incredibly intelligent hard working people with relevant experience and degrees that haven't managed to find any work at all here.

    Secondly, and I demand the truth here, did you come up with your idea for this thread after reading this?
    Because tbh, my idea is far fukking superior. I see where you're coming from though and if my idea was implemented and I was put in charge I would let you be a minnion, so that's your employment prospect looking a bit rosier than it is now :)

    Oh well, I'm in med school. So I'm sorta safe... Although I still need to work hard to get a job. I've got to do a few very big exams and pass those with good grades first. Then I start doing job interviews in US (and in Ireland as well) during the winter (nov-feb) of my final year and I'll have a job ready (if I get one which totally depends on how well I do in my exams) by around feb-march. I'll have my final exams in May-June. So I'll have a job before I graduate.

    The one thing about your idea is that:
    1. Wealth nowdays is only a piece of paper which a bunch of greedy bankers have given a value to. And the value is only going to go down. Which means no country has any real wealth except for the material resources it possesses such as oil, minerals, industry etc.

    2. No country is going to agree on giving its wealth to any poorer country. Its just how it works. And also if one agrees to collapse the economic banking system, then no country has no liquid wealth. Every country is just as bankrupt as another. And if the whole world is bankrupt, that means the 'reset' button has been pressed!

    For my idea, you don't need to force any big governments to take action cuz in reality they aren't going to do squat!
    All one's got to do for my idea to be implemented is just for the people of the smallest village in Ireland to take charge and set up their own commune and micro economy.

    If the government takes action against the village, which it eventually will, the village will have to take the government to the court because the government is violating the rights and freedom of the people of the village. It is a democracy after all and not some fascist dictatorship! I don't think there's anywhere written in the constitution that a bunch of people can't set up their own small community and work together in farming for food and resources creating employment.


  • #46
    Stompbox
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,811 ✭✭✭Stompbox


    af_thefragile wrote: »
    It only takes one small village to kick off the experiment. Say a small village in the middle of mayo or somewhere. They could decide to screw the government's system which has put them into debt and set up their own little micro economy. A village with 100-200 odd people, they could come together and decide they're going to start farming their own food, build houses themselves, pave roads, create water supplies, schools and small businesses, all by themselves. Create their own little monetary system to regulate the resources. This way everyone will have some form of employment. Everyone will be working towards developing the village resources and making sure there's enough food for everyone. They could sell their excess food and resources to generate extra revenue which could be used for buying necessary goods they can't build themselves such as farmyard equipment and such. If the neighbouring villages start doing the same thing, they can share their resources among the villages and this would reduce the burden of work among the villages as long as the villages decide to function on the new debt free monetary system. If the amount of money is tightly regulated and the village(s) keep sharing their resources and producing excess they can export. It'll quickly within a few years time set up a really strong and wealthy economy. Soon the poorest village in the country will become one of the wealthiest!

    This is just completely unfeasible.


  • #47
    Andres Chubby Puck
    Posts: 81,308 CMod ✭✭✭✭ Andres Chubby Puck


    Sweet wrote: »
    This is just completely unfeasible.

    That's what happened in worgl though


  • #48
    Earthhorse
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,728 ✭✭✭✭Earthhorse


    af_thefragile wrote: »
    ^were you? I never noticed...
    Well, "the fragile" bit is like a tribute to NIN's "The Fragile" album which back in 2006 I believed was the greatest music album ever created. If I was to create a user name now, it'ld be something very different...

    I see. What does the af part mean then?

    To contribute, there's nothing essentially wrong with the system you're describing but it's a question of how you get there from here. If you think you can simply ignore the debts people have built up then you're wrong; there'll be consequences to ignoring that debt.


  • #49
    Daroxtar
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,564 ✭✭✭Daroxtar


    af_thefragile wrote: »
    ^were you? I never noticed...
    Well, "the fragile" bit is like a tribute to NIN's "The Fragile" album which back in 2006 I believed was the greatest music album ever created. If I was to create a user name now, it'ld be something very different...



    Oh well, I'm in med school. So I'm sorta safe... Although I still need to work hard to get a job. I've got to do a few very big exams and pass those with good grades first. Then I start doing job interviews in US (and in Ireland as well) during the winter (nov-feb) of my final year and I'll have a job ready (if I get one which totally depends on how well I do in my exams) by around feb-march. I'll have my final exams in May-June. So I'll have a job before I graduate.

    The one thing about your idea is that:
    1. Wealth nowdays is only a piece of paper which a bunch of greedy bankers have given a value to. And the value is only going to go down. Which means no country has any real wealth except for the material resources it possesses such as oil, minerals, industry etc.

    2. No country is going to agree on giving its wealth to any poorer country. Its just how it works. And also if one agrees to collapse the economic banking system, then no country has no liquid wealth. Every country is just as bankrupt as another. And if the whole world is bankrupt, that means the 'reset' button has been pressed!

    For my idea, you don't need to force any big governments to take action cuz in reality they aren't going to do squat!
    All one's got to do for my idea to be implemented is just for the people of the smallest village in Ireland to take charge and set up their own commune and micro economy.

    If the government takes action against the village, which it eventually will, the village will have to take the government to the court because the government is violating the rights and freedom of the people of the village. It is a democracy after all and not some fascist dictatorship! I don't think there's anywhere written in the constitution that a bunch of people can't set up their own small community and work together in farming for food and resources creating employment.

    The last time we had a total reset was in Cambodia under Pol Pot, Brother number 1 he called himself, and i can tell you now that didn't work.
    Now if a community tries to seperate itself from the state they will be stopped. The last time that was successful anywhere was when Emperor Leonard of Hutt declared himself independant of the Australian federal government. He did quite well for himself but ultimately the idea didn't spread too well and any other person tried the same soon found themselves locked up underr tax/treason laws.

    My Idea doesn't need any government backing, we just need a few dedicated lads well tooled up, preferably Ninjas or similar. Think Robin Hood meets Assasins Creed. :)


  • #50
    nyarlothothep
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,184 ✭✭✭nyarlothothep


    af_thefragile wrote: »
    Almost every country is in debt. USA is fecked, Europe is fecked, Africa has been fecked since the beginning of civilization.

    Why can't we just tell the bankers to feck off, throw away all the money we have and start from new?? Where every country has zero debt and no one owes anything to anyone??

    Like pressing a giant 'reset' button for the world and bringing everything back to the starting point.

    Then we could all work together in building the world again properly this time without screwing up like last time. Learning from the mistakes of the past and all.

    Why can't all the countries just decide to stick up two fingers to the central banks and say "feck off, we're not paying you any debt anymore!!" and the banks won't really be able to do anything... Like what can they do? Fight us? Who would fight on their side?!!

    Technically its possible, it would require people to refuse participating in the system or at least undermining it completely. Getting a trans national movement together would be very difficult. Living conditions would need to be intolerable and you would probably need a mobilizing figure or group in addition to conceptual alternatives to the current system. But instead of withdrawing from the game and seeking independence we will most likely lurch from one crap solution to the next. As a species we tend to suck at running our own affairs.


  • #51
    af_thefragile
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,161 ✭✭✭af_thefragile


    Sweet wrote: »
    This is just completely unfeasible.

    It is not unfesible. That's how civilizations of the past survived. That's how tribes have survived over the years.
    They never working on a debt based financial system.
    They just worked with what they had.

    Ireland has enough fertile land to feed the whole country and many others. Especially with the modern scientific knowledge we can grow food more efficiently and more plentiful using machinery and all. So we already have an advantage over the civilizations of the past.

    If cleaver scientific farming is performed with crop and animal rotation, there would be no need to buy fertilizers either.

    I remember watching a show on discovery channel where they were rebuilding this town destroyed in a hurricane. They were building it to be environmentally green and efficient and such where they people of the town were contributing to rebuilding it.

    When you're building something from scratch, you have the advantage of using all the latest scientific knowledge to build it in the most efficient way.

    Once you've got enough food going around for the community, you can start building homes, schools and other small industries. Local businesses started by a few entrepreneurs will drive the economy better.

    It only needs 50-100 people living in the smallest village in Ireland to try out the experiment and see how well it works. Sure if it doesn't work, its not going to change anything and they can go back to complaining about how bad things are.

    The only thing that will prevent this system from running is government sanctions against such a system. Which is totally illegal and unconstitutional.


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  • #52
    af_thefragile
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,161 ✭✭✭af_thefragile


    Daroxtar wrote: »
    The last time we had a total reset was in Cambodia under Pol Pot, Brother number 1 he called himself, and i can tell you now that didn't work.
    Now if a community tries to seperate itself from the state they will be stopped. The last time that was successful anywhere was when Emperor Leonard of Hutt declared himself independant of the Australian federal government. He did quite well for himself but ultimately the idea didn't spread too well and any other person tried the same soon found themselves locked up underr tax/treason laws.

    My Idea doesn't need any government backing, we just need a few dedicated lads well tooled up, preferably Ninjas or similar. Think Robin Hood meets Assasins Creed. :)

    But we can try doing it now. The constitution doesn't stop the community from separating from the state. In fact the community won't be separating from it state. It will remain a part of the state. Only difference is it'll be working on its own small micro economy. After all the state keeps banging on about buying local. How more local can you get than a village that produces its own food, schools, businesses and industries!

    Earthhorse wrote: »
    I see. What does the af part mean then?

    To contribute, there's nothing essentially wrong with the system you're describing but it's a question of how you get there from here. If you think you can simply ignore the debts people have built up then you're wrong; there'll be consequences to ignoring that debt.
    Af is the first two letters of my name. I don't disclose my name on the internet so hmm... You'll have to do with just that much... :)

    Which is true. Its a step eventually the government will have to take rather than local communities.

    But. First the local communities (towns/villages) can work together creating these micro economies and pay off the debt they collectively owe in form of a tax to the government. So all the 100 odd people in the village will work together contributing to the economy. The excess they generate, they'll pay it off as tax to the government.

    This will work for small towns and villages. But for the bigger cities, its gonna be more of a problem. As the people owe their properly to the banks. Though as the banks are broke themselves, this is where the government will have to intervene and dissolve the banks letting the people keep their properly, dissolving their debt from the banks.

    Then now the country on the whole will have taken up the debt the banks owed to foreign nations and banks as well. So now the country will be working on its own economy which will be a collective system of many micro economies working together sharing wealth and resources. The country can export its excess and use the revenue generated from the exports to pay off the debt.

    Until the countries on the whole (like say the EU) decides they're not gonna pay off any more debt to a bunch of phony banks who keep getting richer by doing nothing but lending out money to other countries on an interest. The countries of the EU can decide to abolish the central banks and not pay any more debt to the central banks and abolish the debt all the countries of the EU owe to one another.

    Then this could move a step further where the economic blocks of the world decide the same and finally everyone agrees to cancel one another debt and no one owes anything to anyone.

    The only people who will lose here are the fat bankers. But they deserve to lose!


  • #53
    ejmaztec
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,369 ✭✭✭✭ejmaztec


    af_thefragile wrote: »
    It is not unfesible. That's how civilizations of the past survived. That's how tribes have survived over the years.
    They never working on a debt based financial system.
    They just worked with what they had.

    Ireland has enough fertile land to feed the whole country and many others. Especially with the modern scientific knowledge we can grow food more efficiently and more plentiful using machinery and all. So we already have an advantage over the civilizations of the past.

    If cleaver scientific farming is performed with crop and animal rotation, there would be no need to buy fertilizers either.

    I remember watching a show on discovery channel where they were rebuilding this town destroyed in a hurricane. They were building it to be environmentally green and efficient and such where they people of the town were contributing to rebuilding it.

    When you're building something from scratch, you have the advantage of using all the latest scientific knowledge to build it in the most efficient way.

    Once you've got enough food going around for the community, you can start building homes, schools and other small industries. Local businesses started by a few entrepreneurs will drive the economy better.

    It only needs 50-100 people living in the smallest village in Ireland to try out the experiment and see how well it works. Sure if it doesn't work, its not going to change anything and they can go back to complaining about how bad things are.

    The only thing that will prevent this system from running is government sanctions against such a system. Which is totally illegal and unconstitutional.

    You seem to be blatantly ignoring local corruption.


  • #54
    af_thefragile
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,161 ✭✭✭af_thefragile


    ejmaztec wrote: »
    You seem to be blatantly ignoring local corruption.
    I didn't ignore it. I did factor it in.

    That will have to be controlled. Which is why the smaller the economy the better. It is easy to control corruption in a small village consisting of 100 odd people. The people won't let it happen.

    In bigger towns, they'll need more local regulation. As I said, there needs to be tight regulation of the money and resources. The towns will need to work out their own system as to how they'ld want to make sure they can regulate the money and resources without any corruption and create own local anti-law corruption.

    In a small economy the only way corruption will arise is from thuggery. As long as the system remains transparent, it'll be impossible for people to do fraud or skim off the system.
    And if people don't allow thuggery to take place in their system, its not going to happen.

    Like say you are running a sports club in college. You have funds from the college and members. You have a president, vice president, treasurer and all running the club. With the funds you buy the equipment for the club and organise events. If any member of the club is trying to exploit the club by say stealing the equipment, then you're going to take immediate action against that person. And neither do you let people in the club form their own little micro club using the clubs funds to run their own small group activities. That would be exploiting the club.

    Its the same principle running a small micro economy. Most sports clubs in large universities have over 100 members. Similarly if you have 100 odd people living in a small village, you could create a similar system of governance and run it just as fine as one would run a successful sports club in university.


  • #55
    ASVM
    Closed Accounts Posts: 92 ✭✭ASVM


    Look even if you did start again and do the new village thing who is to say that it would work.Human nature being what it is would it not only be a matter of time before politics and power struggles came in to play.You just can't change human nature try though you may.It's a lovely idea but it's Utopian. It just wouldn't work


  • #56
    J K
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 468 ✭✭J K


    af_thefragile wrote: »
    It is not unfesible. That's how civilizations of the past survived. That's how tribes have survived over the years.

    In the first Greek City States anyone who didn't want to take part, or any anti social element, they would march them out to the edge of their territory and 'off you go now pal, and if you set foot in here again - you die' And they could go off and live with the barbarians or do what they want but not return


  • #57
    Monty Burnz
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,455 ✭✭✭✭Monty Burnz


    af_thefragile wrote: »
    Well, I do think it was a brilliant idea... Blowing up all the banks buildings so as to neutralise everyone's economic standings.

    Its a bit socialist but its better than a whole country festering in debt...
    Is it? Did you ever wonder why the human race was so poor and developed so slowly for tens of thousands of years even though they were as smart as us, and there was a sudden explosion of growth and development in the last 800 years or so?


  • #58
    Earthhorse
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,728 ✭✭✭✭Earthhorse


    af_thefragile wrote: »
    Af is the first two letters of my name. I don't disclose my name on the internet so hmm... You'll have to do with just that much... :)

    Don't worry, Ben Affleck, your secret's safe with me.


  • #59
    af_thefragile
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,161 ✭✭✭af_thefragile


    ASVM wrote: »
    Look even if you did start again and do the new village thing who is to say that it would work.Human nature being what it is would it not only be a matter of time before politics and power struggles came in to play.You just can't change human nature try though you may.It's a lovely idea but it's Utopian. It just wouldn't work

    You never know until you try it. Sure human nature will cause divides and conflicts. But as long as the system works and the people are happy with the system it'll work.

    Like look at how the gentile and pacifist societies used to exist. They would have strict laws of the tribe and respect among the members. They knew the environment and situation was hard. They had to work together for the survival of everyone. If they'ld rebel, only they'ld lose. Power was in numbers.

    Yes you can't change human nature which is why you have laws and moral codes to adhere to and anyone who doesn't adhere to these codes will be prosecuted.

    It is more important for a society to have a just legal and judicial system than anything else for the society to run successfully. If the society is wealthy but its judicial system is corrupt, the society will soon fall into turmoil. On the other hand, if the society is poor and working with scarce resources yet it has a just judicial system, the society will manage to pull itself through and will become successful.


    Look at all the poorest countries in the world and you'll notice the only reason these people are poor is because their judicial system has become corrupt and failed. This is the biggest problem of all the 3rd world countries. If any 3rd would county could manage to fix its judicial system to proper just standards, within a few decades the country could put itself out of poverty and be a successful economy.

    Its not the lack or resources or debt that makes a country poor. Its their failed judicial system takes makes the country poor. As long as there are people who are above the law, the below below the law will have no regards for the law.


  • #60
    Fighting Irish
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,062 ✭✭✭Fighting Irish


    af_thefragile wrote: »
    Almost every country is in debt. USA is fecked, Europe is fecked, Africa has been fecked since the beginning of civilization.

    Why can't we just tell the bankers to feck off, throw away all the money we have and start from new?? Where every country has zero debt and no one owes anything to anyone??

    Like pressing a giant 'reset' button for the world and bringing everything back to the starting point.

    Then we could all work together in building the world again properly this time without screwing up like last time. Learning from the mistakes of the past and all.

    Why can't all the countries just decide to stick up two fingers to the central banks and say "feck off, we're not paying you any debt anymore!!" and the banks won't really be able to do anything... Like what can they do? Fight us? Who would fight on their side?!!


    Sick of paying your mortgage for your sh1tty house? :P


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  • #61
    af_thefragile
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,161 ✭✭✭af_thefragile


    Monty Burnz wrote: »
    Is it? Did you ever wonder why the human race was so poor and developed so slowly for tens of thousands of years even though they were as smart as us, and there was a sudden explosion of growth and development in the last 800 years or so?

    That is not true. Civilizations work in cycles of rise to economic success and development and then downfalls.

    The Egyptian civilizations reached extremely high levels of development. People still can't figure out how the hell the egyptians could manage to build their pyramids back in those days. But then corruption took over and the civilization collapsed.

    The Chinese civilization reached great levels of ingenuity and development. But then even they collapsed.

    Then it was the turn for the Islamic civilization during the middle ages to rise and reach new levels of scientific, economic and social development. But then after the inquisition and crusades, corruption took hold of the Islamic civilization and even that broke up and headed towards its downfall.

    Then was the European renaissance period where scientists and mathematicians worked "standing on the shoulder of giants" as Netwon put it.
    That period had its ups and down with the battles between the European nations, discovery of the "new world", Colonialisation and the industrial revolution.

    Sure it was the bankers who make this big leap possible over the past 800 or so years. But look at it now and even this modern civilization is on its last leg. Its riddled with corruption like all of the previous civilizations and its going to collapse anytime soon. In fact it has collapsed in many places already.

    If we manage to completely destroy what we've built, like the civilisations of the past did, then people will look back at this period of time and say it was no different from what the civilisations of the past did. Only these guys also managed to destroy the environment while at it! Soon there will be no oil left in this world to run any aeroplanes, trains, ships, trucks, cars etc. What is the modern world going to do then? How is long distance travel going to take place then? You can't expect electric batteries to be powering massive turbines and engines capable of hauling tons of cargo and people from one end of the world to another...

    And then another new civilisation will rise from the ashes of the destroyed civilisation and take humanity another step further standing on the works and achievements of what the civilisations of the past achieved.



    So you can't say humanity made no development before the Renaissance or the Industrial Revolution. It always made progress and then collapsed. Which is exactly what this modern civilisation is doing too.


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