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US Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords shot (other persons killed or injured)

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,919 ✭✭✭Einhard


    Interesting article in slate about how right wing hysteria about perceived federal tyranny and the febrile poitical atmosphere that creates can influence deranged individuals.
    The Tea Party and the Tucson Tragedy

    How anti-government, pro-gun, xenophobic populism made the Giffords shooting more likely.

    By Jacob Weisberg
    Posted Monday, Jan. 10, 2011, at 6:30 PM ET
    There's something offensive, as well as pointless, about the politically charged inquiry into what might have been swirling inside the head of Jared Loughner. We hear that the accused shooter read The Communist Manifesto and liked flag-burning videos—good news for the right. Wait—he was a devotee of Ayn Rand and favored the gold standard, so he was a right-winger after all. Some assassinations embody an ideology, however twisted. Based on what we know so far, the Tucson killings look like more like politically tinged schizophrenia.

    It is appropriate, however, to consider what was swirling outside Loughner's head. To call his crime an attempted assassination is to acknowledge that it appears to have had a political and not merely a personal context. That context wasn't Islamic radicalism, Puerto Rican independence, or anarcho-syndicalism. It was the anti-government, pro-gun, xenophobic populism that flourishes in the dry and angry climate of Arizona. Extremist shouters didn't program Loughner, in some mechanistic way, to shoot Gabrielle Giffords. But the Tea Party movement did make it appreciably more likely that a disturbed person like Loughner would react, would be able to react, and would not be prevented from reacting, in the crazy way he did.

    At the core of the far right's culpability is its ongoing attack on the legitimacy of U.S. government—a venomous campaign not so different from the backdrop to the Oklahoma City bombing in 1995. Then it was focused on "government bureaucrats" and the ATF. This time it has been more about Obama's birth certificate and health care reform. In either case, it expresses the dangerous idea that the federal government lacks valid authority. It is this, rather than violent rhetoric per se, that is the most dangerous aspect of right-wing extremism.

    Often the two issues are blurred together, because if government is illegitimate, rebellion is an appropriate response (hence the Colonial costumes). Conservative entertainers like Glenn Beck and Sarah Palin like to titillate their audiences with hints of justified violence, including frequent reminders that they are armed and dangerous. Palin went so far as to put a target on someone who subsequently got shot. Whether or not the man who fired the gun was inspired by Palin isn't the point. The point is that you shouldn't paint targets on people, even in metaphor, or jest.

    Guns are also at the heart of how the right's ideology enabled Loughner. Tea Partiers often frame the right to bear arms as a necessary check on federal despotism. "You know, if this Congress keeps going the way it is, people are really looking toward those Second Amendment remedies," said Sharron Angle of Nevada, who nearly defeated the majority leader of the U.S. Senate in neighboring Nevada. In practical terms, easy access to firearms empowers extremists and crazies to challenge government authority at whim. The National Rifle Association position that any attempt to regulate the ownership of firearms is a violation of the Constitution has prevailed both politically and through the courts. That means that there are few things simpler than for someone to walk into a sporting goods store, as Loughner apparently did, buy a dangerous weapon, and carry it concealed to political meetings. How should politicians protect themselves from nuts with guns? By arming themselves, of course. Absent permissive firearm laws, nowhere more lax than in Arizona, Loughner might still have been able to get a gun. But he couldn't have done it quite so easily.

    First you rile up psychotics with inflammatory language about tyranny, betrayal, and taking back the country. Then you make easy for them to get guns. But if you really want trouble, you should also make it hard for them to get treatment for mental illness. I don't know if Loughner had health insurance, but he falls into a pool of people who often go uninsured—not young enough to be covered by parents (until the health-care bill's coverage of twentysomethings kicked in a few months ago), not old enough for Medicare, not poor enough for Medicaid. If such a person happens to have a history of mental illness, he will be effectively uninsurable. To get treatment, he actually has to commit a crime. If Republicans succeed in repealing the Obama health care bill, that's how it will remain.

    Again, none of this says that Tea Party caused the Tucson tragedy, only that its politics increased the odds of something like it happening. It was in criticizing writers on his own side for their naivete about communism that George Orwell wrote, "So much of left-wing thought is a kind of playing with fire by people who don't even know that fire is hot." Today it is the right that amuses itself with violent chat and proclaims an injured innocence when its flammable words blow up.


    Even more interesting, and accurate IMO, article as to why Sarah palin can't have it both ways.


    Sarah Palin, Blood-Libel Hypocrite

    Sarah Palin opposes collective blame for monstrous crimes, unless they're committed by Muslims.

    By William Saletan
    Posted Wednesday, Jan. 12, 2011, at 11:55 AM ET
    Sarah Palin is outraged. In a Facebook post this morning, she responds to critics who have suggested that her target map of Democrats, which put a crosshairs-like symbol over the district of Rep. Gabrielle Giffords, D-Ariz., may have contributed to the Tucson shooting. Palin writes:
    After this shocking tragedy, I listened at first puzzled, then with concern, and now with sadness, to the irresponsible statements from people attempting to apportion blame for this terrible event. President Reagan said, "We must reject the idea that every time a law's broken, society is guilty rather than the lawbreaker. It is time to restore the American precept that each individual is accountable for his actions." Acts of monstrous criminality stand on their own. They begin and end with the criminals who commit them, not collectively with all the citizens of a state, not with those who listen to talk radio, not with maps of swing districts used by both sides of the aisle, not with law-abiding citizens who respectfully exercise their First Amendment rights at campaign rallies … journalists and pundits should not manufacture a blood libel that serves only to incite the very hatred and violence they purport to condemn. That is reprehensible.
    That's what Palin believes. Each person is solely accountable for his actions. Acts of monstrous criminality "begin and end with the criminals who commit them." It's wrong to hold others of the same nationality, ethnicity, or religion "collectively" responsible for mass murders.
    Unless, of course, you're talking about Muslims. In that case, Palin is fine with collective blame. In fact, she's enthusiastic about it. Palin was the first national politician to join the jihad against what she called the "planned mosque at Ground Zero" (which wasn't a mosque and wasn't at Ground Zero, but let's cut her some slack). In her statement, issued six months ago on the same Facebook page where she now denounces collective blame, she wrote this:
    To build a mosque at Ground Zero is a stab in the heart of the families of the innocent victims of those horrific attacks. … I agree with the sister of one of the 9/11 victims (and a New York resident) who said: "This is a place which is 600 feet from where almost 3,000 people were torn to pieces by Islamic extremists. I think that it is incredibly insensitive and audacious really for them to build a mosque, not only on that site, but to do it specifically so that they could be in proximity to where that atrocity happened."
    The last bit is a falsehood—proximity wasn't the motive for choosing the site—but again, let's cut Palin some slack. They key phrase to focus on is "a mosque." Palin used it twice—once in the quote, and once in her own words—so it can't be passed off as inadvertent. Her objection wasn't just to a specific imam or sect, much less to an identifiable terrorist. It was to any Islamic house of worship near Ground Zero.

    Palin has never retracted this position. Indeed, she has persisted in her opposition to any mosque near Ground Zero. Her position is that the act of monstrous criminality on 9/11 doesn't end with the criminals who committed it. Its stigma extends to any mosque near the site. All Muslims should yield to that stigma. All Muslims are responsible.

    "Blood libel," as defined by The Concise Oxford Dictionary of World Religions, is historically targeted not at a country but at a religion. Palin's campaign against any Muslim house of worship near Ground Zero, based on group blame for terrorism, fits that definition more closely than does any current accusation against the Tea Party.

    It didn't matter to Palin that the imam behind the "mosque" (which was actually an Islamic community center two blocks from Ground Zero) had denounced terrorism. Shortly after 9/11, the imam, Faisal Abdul Rauf, appeared on 60 Minutes and was asked this question:
    Ed Bradley: What would you say to people in this country, who, looking at what happens in the Middle East, would associate Islam with fanaticism, with terrorism?
    Abdul Rauf: Fanaticism and terrorism have no place in Islam. That's just as absurd as associating Hitler with Christianity or David Koresh with Christianity. There are always people who will do peculiar things and think that they are doing things in the name of their religion. But the Quran—you know, God says in the Quran that they think that they're doing right, but they're doing wrong.
    Palin ignored the imam's denunciation of violence. Now she repudiates the massacre in Tucson and expresses outrage that anyone would associate her with it.
    In today's Facebook post, Palin writes: "Recall how the events of 9-11 challenged our values and we had to fight the tendency to trade our freedoms for perceived security. And so it is today." Indeed. But when the events of 9/11 challenged our values, Palin surrendered. A decade later, she remains still willing to trade freedom, not for security, but for "sensitivity" to her supporters' anger at Muslims generally. She's willing to issue blood libels and sacrifice people's freedoms. She just doesn't want the same done to her.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,558 ✭✭✭kaiser sauze


    EastTexas wrote: »
    As it turned out, he is not a Republican/ Teaparty as alleged by many on left within the hr before even knowing his name.

    Some of those who are determined to paint him as a paid up/bought & sold Republican have done that yes. They are in the minority and are likely fringe Democrats or even people who just hate Republicans.

    Yet again, you are not debating the actual surrounding issues here: the discourse, or lack thereof, in your country. It is a breeding ground for people like Loughner to go on and trying to parse what happened and completley ignoring the surrounding issues is a complete non-starter.
    EastTexas wrote: »
    And there is no evidence what so ever, that any public rhetoric has influenced him at all.

    Are you saying here that the public rhetoric, and I am glad to see you actually acknowledge it, must be toned down OR are you saying "case closed, let's get back to calling Democrats communists who have taken over our country and we need to take up arms against them"?

    It is one or the other. Sorry.
    EastTexas wrote: »
    There is a huge discrepancy between what the Right says and what the Left claims for them to have said.

    Some examples?
    EastTexas wrote: »
    Instead of disagreeing they have taken to demonization if not character assassination by any means.

    Is it bad for you now to have to suffer the demonisation by Democrats that they have been suffering?

    EastTexas wrote: »
    Last week many blamed Sarah Palin’s crosshair map for the incident.

    Again, more paraphrasing.

    Noone has blamed Sarah Palin directly for this, those people are just as crazy as the gunman, but you using this strawman to excuse the hate & demonisation that Sarah Palin has been spreading is just another right-winger saying case is closed when the trial has not even begun.

    Likewise,
    EastTexas wrote: »
    Liberals & Democrats where outraged when it first appeared.
    However take a look at this link from a Democratic website form 2004
    http://www.dlc.org/ndol_ci.cfm?contentid=253055&kaid=127&subid=171

    And they have yet to be proven wrong to be outraged. ;)

    Oh, wait, that was just another fallacy.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,938 ✭✭✭caseyann


    Overheal wrote: »
    That would be difficult data to compile and more importantly that isn't the implication in my post, if you read it. Stabbings doesnt cover unarmed robberies, manslaughter with claw hammers, unarmed rape by physically superior scum, etc.

    It also wouldn't be properly weighed against vigilantism statistics, wherein convenience store and home robberies, muggins and rapes are thwarted by the presence of a gun, or other personal defense weapon.
    The vast majority of gun owners store the guns properly and educate their children on gun safety. You could just as easily give out about children who have beaten their families to death with Hammers, of which there are multiple tragic examples: http://www.google.com/search?q=killed+with+hammer&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a

    Where did I ever say to hand out weapons to people like candy? I'd like you to withdraw that remark, please.

    Yes stun guns, mace, pepper spray, whistles, pen knives, are a different matter. And yes we got one for our sister because we don't particularly want to see her get raped. Fortunately it's not a device she's ever had to use. She's not a child and she understands it's a weapon, and despite it's non-lethal classification it can kill with enough effort.

    Nobody is discussing handing out guns "like candy" to people, or at least I am not. Gun ownership is something to be measured and controlled but it's the right of people if they so wish to own one in the US for their personal defense.

    I wasnt saying you said it sorry about that.I am saying USA does.And any wonder they have so may shooting and violent deaths and gang land murders.When they so readily allow easy access to guns.Then robbers can rob said guns also to add to their Armour of weapons.
    Ireland is just fine as it is.And Ireland does not need to follow in USA foot steps as it has shown with the tiny steps it already has has caused nothing but worse crime here.
    In order to fight the gun issue in USA they need a strong ban on all guns unless proven needed like i said farmer or law enforcement or army.
    Gun shops on every corner i recall was such a pretty sight to be had.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,558 ✭✭✭kaiser sauze


    Einhard wrote: »

    <from your second linked article>
    That's what Palin believes. Each person is solely accountable for his actions. Acts of monstrous criminality "begin and end with the criminals who commit them." It's wrong to hold others of the same nationality, ethnicity, or religion "collectively" responsible for mass murders.

    This is the problem, the right want this issue stopped at the mental state of this gunman, to go any further hinders them in their tracks from continuing the disgusting political rhetoric and underhanded, and sometimes ouright direct, hate speech they have been practicing since the election of Clinton.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,630 ✭✭✭steelcityblues


    Some of those who are determined to paint him as a paid up/bought & sold Republican have done that yes. They are in the minority and are likely fringe Democrats or even people who just hate Republicans. QUOTE]

    Yet, you were one of those doing that throughout this thread. :rolleyes:


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,558 ✭✭✭kaiser sauze


    Some of those who are determined to paint him as a paid up/bought & sold Republican have done that yes. They are in the minority and are likely fringe Democrats or even people who just hate Republicans.

    Yet, you were one of those doing that throughout this thread. :rolleyes:

    You have an actual quote to back up this? :rolleyes:


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,038 ✭✭✭✭Sparks


    caseyann wrote: »
    And Ireland does not need to follow in USA foot steps as it has shown with the tiny steps it already has has caused nothing but worse crime here.
    Speaking as someone who's been ears-deep in those 'tiny steps' for the best part of a decade, that's utterly, completely, totally wrong. The steps we've taken aren't tiny, weren't necessary, and have had zero effect on gun crime rates in Ireland.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,630 ✭✭✭steelcityblues


    From Page 14 - I found this by yourself kaisersauze:

    "The BBC, and The Telegraph, are reporting it like it is: deranged gunman, influenced by hate-speech and right wing rhetoric from Tea Party/Republican led groups, takes 2 + 2 gets 1,573,284 and proceeds to shoot a Democratic politician."

    Stop pretending otherwise.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,558 ✭✭✭kaiser sauze


    From Page 14 - I found this by yourself kaisersauze:

    "The BBC, and The Telegraph, are reporting it like it is: deranged gunman, influenced by hate-speech and right wing rhetoric from Tea Party/Republican led groups, takes 2 + 2 gets 1,573,284 and proceeds to shoot a Democratic politician."

    Stop pretending otherwise.

    That is not the same thing and to insinuate so is rubbish.

    Deranged gunman: check

    hate speech and rhetoric from the right: check

    Democratic politician: check

    ---^those are my words, your words are below, I don't find them in your quote of me.

    Membership card or registration for either a Tea Party group or Republican Party: Loughner was a registered independent.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,630 ✭✭✭steelcityblues


    That is not the same thing and to insinuate so is rubbish.

    Deranged gunman: check

    hate speech and rhetoric from the right: check

    Democratic politician: check

    ---^those are my words, your words are below, I don't find them in your quote of me.

    Membership card or registration for either a Tea Party group or Republican Party: Loughner was a registered independent.[/QUOTE]

    Exactly. Which is a vague term politically, that could mean any one of several things in the case of Loughner. Yet, you have chosen to pinpoint the blame squarely on Tea party members or Republicans or Sarah Palin for several pages now.

    The guy was a nut with no clear political philosophy - plain and simple!


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86,683 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    apparently according to conservative talk radio host Smidcht (sp?) he didn't watch TV or Listen to Radio, but rather came across Conspiracy Theory stuff on the internet. Such as the Loose Change Movie and something about Zeitgeist - a term that I know I have seen before, but not an idea that I am familiar with.

    when he met Giffords in 2007 (the same year the Zeitgeist theory took steam) the question he asked her was something like 'What is the point of politics when words have no meaning?'

    /shrug

    Just offering what I heard while I ran my errands. Any ideas?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,558 ✭✭✭kaiser sauze


    That is not the same thing and to insinuate so is rubbish.

    Deranged gunman: check

    hate speech and rhetoric from the right: check

    Democratic politician: check

    ---^those are my words, your words are below, I don't find them in your quote of me.

    Membership card or registration for either a Tea Party group or Republican Party: Loughner was a registered independent.[/QUOTE]

    Exactly. Which is a vague term politically, that could mean any one of several things in the case of Loughner. Yet, you have chosen to pinpoint the blame squarely on Tea party members or Republicans or Sarah Palin for several pages now.
    The guy was a nut with no clear political philosophy - plain and simple!

    He was a nut, his political philosophy was all over the place, which is why I have a problem with right-wingers calling him a liberal.

    However, I am not accepting you characterization of my words as pinpointing The Tea Party/Republicans, but they certainly are not doing people like Loughner any favours with the discourse model they follow.

    Why was Giffords targeted?

    Why is the majority of violence and threats against Democrats?

    You cannot ignore all these things, to do so is called squatting on the fence.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,899 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manic Moran


    RichieC wrote: »
    isn't it 21 feet that soldiers are trained about regarding the distance an assailant can cover in the time it takes to draw and fire a side arm? what would it be for reloading?

    Police, actually.

    Not strictly applicable: The Tueller Drill assumes that both the run and the draw start at the same moment (And that the runner is already standing and poised). For this purpose, you would have to allow some reaction time to the tackler to comprehend that yes, the shooter has started reloading, and then likely get up from cover before running, placing him at a bit of a disadvantage in the time stakes.

    And that's also assuming the shooter has not done a tactical reload. In such a case, the pistol is never not in a ready-to-fire condition. (And is the express rationale behind a tactical reload: In case something happens during the reloading process that might need shooting at)

    NTM


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,463 ✭✭✭marienbad


    That Jared Laughner was completely responsible for his actions is a given. But is seems to me to be,to believe that the backdrop of poisoned and hate-filled rhetoric that has dominated US politics since the demise of the''fairness doctrine'' in 1987 does not have an influence on such disturbed minds, is at best willfully naive.

    To believe that some form of gun control would not reduce some of these mass shootings is just plain wrong. And to say that these kind of nutjobs would have just used an ax or a knife is just plain stupid.

    If axes or knives were as effective as guns, the indians and not the cowboys would have won.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86,683 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    marienbad wrote: »
    If axes or knives were as effective as guns, the indians and not the cowboys would have won.
    And going by the Legislative Intent of the 2nd Amendment thats one of the reasons why the right to keep and bear arms must be maintained to prevent an Armed Government from supressing the will of the People by force. That was back during a time when the best armies still only had muskets, cannons and horses. Now the military is a bit more serious, and Armed. But the right of people to own these weapons still holds as much meaning today as it did then: An unarmed nation is susceptible to tyranny at any given moment. A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 23,315 ✭✭✭✭amacachi


    Overheal wrote: »
    Goodness, even Stephen Colbert appeared to break character to give a condolence over this tragedy. I never thought I'd see the day.
    Didn't he do it when a congresswoman who'd been on the show died? Think her name was Tubbs.
    Overheal wrote: »
    apparently according to conservative talk radio host Smidcht (sp?) he didn't watch TV or Listen to Radio, but rather came across Conspiracy Theory stuff on the internet. Such as the Loose Change Movie and something about Zeitgeist - a term that I know I have seen before, but not an idea that I am familiar with.

    when he met Giffords in 2007 (the same year the Zeitgeist theory took steam) the question he asked her was something like 'What is the point of politics when words have no meaning?'

    /shrug

    Just offering what I heard while I ran my errands. Any ideas?
    Zeitgeist is basically everything on the CT forum here less the 2012 stuff. It's a terrible, terrible piece of film making, I'd like to think if I were a nutter I'd still appreciate good production values.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 86,683 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    amacachi wrote: »
    Didn't he do it when a congresswoman who'd been on the show died? Think her name was Tubbs.
    He may have. Incidences where he breaks character are reserved and rare gems.

    http://www.colbertnation.com/the-colbert-report-videos/180133/august-27-2008/stephanie-tubbs-jones-tribute

    Didn't seem to break character as much as he did with Gifford: http://www.colbertnation.com/the-colbert-report-videos/370516/january-10-2011/pundits-lay-blame-for-senseless-arizona-attack


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,630 ✭✭✭steelcityblues


    That is not the same thing and to insinuate so is rubbish.

    Deranged gunman: check

    hate speech and rhetoric from the right: check

    Democratic politician: check

    ---^those are my words, your words are below, I don't find them in your quote of me.

    Membership card or registration for either a Tea Party group or Republican Party: Loughner was a registered independent.[/QUOTE]

    Exactly. Which is a vague term politically, that could mean any one of several things in the case of Loughner. Yet, you have chosen to pinpoint the blame squarely on Tea party members or Republicans or Sarah Palin for several pages now.



    He was a nut, his political philosophy was all over the place, which is why I have a problem with right-wingers calling him a liberal.

    However, I am not accepting you characterization of my words as pinpointing The Tea Party/Republicans, but they certainly are not doing people like Loughner any favours with the discourse model they follow.

    Why was Giffords targeted?

    Why is the majority of violence and threats against Democrats?

    You cannot ignore all these things, to do so is called squatting on the fence.

    Well, burning the flag usually isn't associated with right wingers, but that alone means I can't prove if he is a liberal.

    As for why was Giffords targeted? We know Loughner didn't like the woman as far back as 2007, given his immature comments towards her then - but i'm guessing no politician could be considered radical enough to meet his approval.

    Is it the majority? You only have to watch and exaimne both FOX and MSNBC on a daily basis to know how pointless most of it is, when in reality there are only minor differences between both parties.

    BTW, I don't have much time for Palin - she is quite the opportunist (even by US standards), and not too bright IMO. She has given small govt. proponents a bad name too, but will most likely drop that philosophy like a bad habit if in the White House. I

    If it is Palin v Obama for 2012 - and if I was a US voter - would look towards third party candidates myself.

    Still, I don't think you can legislate for opinions in general as it goes against what a free society should be.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,899 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manic Moran


    marienbad wrote: »
    To believe that some form of gun control would not reduce some of these mass shootings is just plain wrong. And to say that these kind of nutjobs would have just used an ax or a knife is just plain stupid.

    Nah, they'd use a car, like the Europeans.

    If axes or knives were as effective as guns, the indians and not the cowboys would have won.

    The problem is that nothing is as effective as a gun for doing good things either. We just refuse to let the possibility of something being misused prevent the possibility of something being used well.

    NTM


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,463 ✭✭✭marienbad


    Nah, they'd use a car, like the Europeans.




    The problem is that nothing is as effective as a gun for doing good things either. We just refuse to let the possibility of something being misused prevent the possibility of something being used well.

    TM


    Could'nt be bothered replying to this rubbish


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 251 ✭✭EastTexas


    Nah, they'd use a car, like the Europeans.




    The problem is that nothing is as effective as a gun for doing good things either. We just refuse to let the possibility of something being misused prevent the possibility of something being used well.

    NTM

    That did raise a snicker though it shouldn't have, but surly you most be joking.
    At least I hope so.

    On a somewhat OT note, I am slightly puzzled why so many Europeans and from the looks of it some Irish gents too, are so upset about Americans having the constitutional right to own and bear arms in THEIR country?
    I am sure there are some rights and privileges that are distinctly European and perhaps Irish, but I can’t imagine anybody at home and that includes myself to be upset or belittling about that.
    Don’t get me wrong I am neither offended nor resentful of that but find a little odd if not just a tad small just the same. :)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,919 ✭✭✭Einhard


    Overheal wrote: »
    And going by the Legislative Intent of the 2nd Amendment thats one of the reasons why the right to keep and bear arms must be maintained to prevent an Armed Government from supressing the will of the People by force. That was back during a time when the best armies still only had muskets, cannons and horses. Now the military is a bit more serious, and Armed. But the right of people to own these weapons still holds as much meaning today as it did then: An unarmed nation is susceptible to tyranny at any given moment. A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed

    The idea that a few militias with access to guns would stand in the way of a government controlling the greatest military force the world has ever seen is laughably naive. Americans like guns. And the Constitution provides them with the right to arm themselves. Which is convenient. But the notion that they do so to prevent tyrannical government is largely BS, and taken seriously only by extremists.

    Incidentally, the fact that a proportion of the American public so distrusts the political system in the longest established democracy in the world, is evidence enough in my opinion, of the extremely polarised nature of American political discourse, something which has gotten worse in recent years as Republicans realised that they could gain politically by pandering to this section of society.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,463 ✭✭✭marienbad


    EastTexas wrote: »
    That did raise a snicker though it shouldn't have, but surly you most be joking.
    At least I hope so.

    On a somewhat OT note, I am slightly puzzled why so many Europeans and from the looks of it some Irish gents too, are so upset about Americans having the constitutional right to own and bear arms in THEIR country?
    I am sure there are some rights and privileges that are distinctly European and perhaps Irish, but I can’t imagine anybody at home and that includes myself to be upset or belittling about that.
    Don’t get me wrong I am neither offended nor resentful of that but find a little odd if not just a tad small just the same. :)

    EastTexas , that is simply not true , there is a whole industry in America devoted to taking the mickey out of Europeans and their foibles , ranging from Bill Maher on the left right across the spectrum to Sean Hannity on the right and usually at the very top of your derision list is ''those cheese eating surrender monkeys'' the French. And that is surely one of the greatest put downs of all time and I for one loved it , even though I love the French also. It is all great fun up to a point , but it seems less fun when people get shot.

    I for one fully agree that gun rights in America is none of my business but as we dont live in a vacuum it is not unreasonable to discuss it. I am sure people in the US are also discussing the terrible incident in Mauritius that has all Ireland united in sympathy even though technically it is nothing to do with you.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,361 ✭✭✭mgmt


    Einhard wrote: »
    The idea that a few militias with access to guns would stand in the way of a government controlling the greatest military force the world has ever seen is laughably naive. Americans like guns. And the Constitution provides them with the right to arm themselves. Which is convenient. But the notion that they do so to prevent tyrannical government is largely BS, and taken seriously only by extremists.




  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,899 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manic Moran


    EastTexas wrote: »
    That did raise a snicker though it shouldn't have, but surly you most be joking.
    At least I hope so.

    Only partially. Most europeans who go on killing sprees tend to use firearms as well, and it's not as if the idea of trying to run over as many people a possible hasn't occurred to americans either: we had a guy here in the SF area doing circles around a few blocks before he finally hit something that stopped him.

    But the fundamental reason that americans are so fond of their firearms is that nothing else will do the job required. Like any tool, they can be misused, but most people use them responsibly and for the overall betterment.

    NTM


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 251 ✭✭EastTexas


    marienbad wrote: »
    EastTexas , that is simply not true , there is a whole industry in America devoted to taking the mickey out of Europeans and their foibles , ranging from Bill Maher on the left right across the spectrum to Sean Hannity on the right and usually at the very top of your derision list is ''those cheese eating surrender monkeys'' the French. And that is surely one of the greatest put downs of all time and I for one loved it , even though I love the French also. It is all great fun up to a point , but it seems less fun when people get shot.

    I for one fully agree that gun rights in America is none of my business but as we dont live in a vacuum it is not unreasonable to discuss it. I am sure people in the US are also discussing the terrible incident in Mauritius that has all Ireland united in sympathy even though technically it is nothing to do with you.

    By golly, I probably should have pointed out that I am referring to this thread.
    You took it somewhere different but no problem.
    I am honestly not aware of any industry in America devoted to taking the mickey out of Europeans.
    Bill Maher calls Americans stupid since years and if anything appears a little infatuated with Europe which is fine by me.
    Incidentally this is his latest rant.
    “NRA Should Just Change Their Name To 'Assassin's Lobby'”
    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/01/12/bill-maher-leno-nra-gun_n_807914.html#comments
    I don’t think this is very helpful at this time.

    Never let a good crisis go to waste...eh Bill;)


    Of cause it’s not unreasonable to discuss it and neither did I take issue with that.
    Heck that’s what we’ve doing here since days.:)
    I was merely marveling at the strong feelings some harbor against the 2nd amendment when it doesn’t affect them in their country.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 15,552 ✭✭✭✭GuanYin


    [MOD POST:]


    OK, this has gone on long enough.

    The next instance of US vs EU bashing I see on this forum, no matter how mild will earn a 2 week ban from the forum.

    In addition, the tangents have gotten a bit off topic. If you want to talk about the 2nd amendment, start a new thread.

    This thread is for the discussion of the shooting of Gabby Giffords and her constituents and the political ramification there after.

    I'll take a very dim and prejudicial view of anyone trying to use semantics to push their agenda of soap boxing.

    You have been formally warned.
    [/mod]


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 13,016 ✭✭✭✭jank


    RichieC wrote: »
    Does Sarah Palin even know what Blood Libel is?


    http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/01/12/palin-calls-criticism-blood-libel/?hp


    mother of god...


    :eek:
    Yeap, she does it again. What a twit but sure thats her narrative. She is ALWAYS the victim. She will probably go away and write another book on the matter. Bar her hardcore fan base most people it seems are over her.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,355 ✭✭✭Belfast


    BluePlanet wrote: »
    I suppose it might have something to with the fact that Giffords was pro gun control and was shot by the sort of weapon she would have liked to ban.
    Or even the fact that a mentally-ill person could walk into a shop and arm themselves with a killing machine, no questions asked.


    Hardly!
    If he could only fire 6 rounds before having to reload then he wouldn't have been able to shoot 20 people. You do realize that he was tackled to the ground as he was trying to reload, having emptied a 30-round clip?

    Giffords supports gun rights. She opposed the Washington D.C. gun ban, signing an Amicus curiae brief with the U.S. Supreme Court to support its overturn.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,684 ✭✭✭FatherTed


    Never let a good crisis go to waste. That's a good motto for any politician, of course. This is about standard for McCarthy, she's been the most strident anti-gun congresscritter for years and makes it an annual event to propose something of that nature.
    ....

    She has always been a supporter of gun control. Perhaps it has something to do with the fact that her husband was shot in 1993.


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