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why should men have to pay child maintenance?????

135

Comments

  • #62
    ntlbell
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,287 ✭✭✭✭ntlbell


    JaxxYChicK wrote: »
    As a woman I find that entire notion seriously scary. Just can't wrap my head around the idea that I'd sacrifice my body, time and social life purely for a few extra quids from the Government. Creepy.

    Just wear a condom lads.

    They don't seem to have to make much of a sacrifice, a lot of them have better social lives than hard working profesionals trying to make ends meet.


  • #63
    Duggy747
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,295 ✭✭✭✭Duggy747


    JaxxYChicK wrote: »
    As a woman I find that entire notion seriously scary. Just can't wrap my head around the idea that I'd sacrifice my body, time and social life purely for a few extra quids from the Government. Creepy.

    It happens, seen plenty of women get preggers like it's a career choice so they claim their right to a fine pad for themselves while the ex makes odd trips to see their kids or to explain why he's late with payment.

    Many of those end up being able to go on the piss every weekend due to not having any work commitments.

    Then there's others who become human factories, just farming babies out like a conveyor belt. The result of which are from various fathers they hook up with on their piss-ups.
    Just wear a condom lads.

    Simplistic advice that so many idiots can't seem to remember.


  • #64
    Holybejaysus
    Closed Accounts Posts: 415 ✭✭Holybejaysus


    Hopefully this will curb the rate of unwanted pregnancies:


    http://www.independent.ie/health/latest-news/boots-offers-morning-after-pill-over-counter-2491084.html


  • #65
    Jaxxy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,297 ✭✭✭Jaxxy


    ntlbell wrote: »
    They don't seem to have to make much of a sacrifice, a lot of them have better social lives than hard working profesionals trying to make ends meet.
    Duggy747 wrote: »
    It happens, seen plenty of women get preggers like it's a career choice so they claim their right to a fine pad for themselves while the ex makes odd trips to see their kids or to explain why he's late with payment.

    Many of those end up being able to go on the piss every weekend due to not having any work commitments.

    Then there's others who become human factories, just farming babies out like a conveyor belt. The result of which are from various fathers they hook up with on their piss-ups.

    This just disturbs me to no end, especially since I have friends of my own who are raising children single-handedly, with little to no input or financial help from the fathers. They're constantly struggling and having a social life is a distant memory.
    Simplistic advice that so many idiots can't seem to remember.

    Indeed, and that brings me back to my original point. If you're going to have a one night stand with someone you don't know, and therefore can't completely trust, then you have to protect yourself.


  • #66
    curlzy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,708 ✭✭✭curlzy


    prinz wrote: »
    At the risk of going off topic but how is it vastly more disgusting and wrong than for a woman to abort against the wishes of the man. He had an equal part in creating it.

    Because it's HER body. We are at risk of dragging this off topic, so I won't continue the discussion other than to say that when men are able to be pregnant and give birth I will fight for their right to THEIR bodies. Everyone should have the right to say what happens to their bodies, that goes for both genders.
    ntlbell wrote: »
    But it's fine for a woman to terminate a mans child without his input?

    Then expect the man to pay 50/50 when he didn't want the child in the first place?

    Then only give him access to the child when the mother see's fit?

    right so

    You're making wild assumptions from what I said so I won't be replying to you anymore, I don't see much sense in responding to nosense.


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  • #67
    ntlbell
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,287 ✭✭✭✭ntlbell


    curlzy wrote: »


    You're making wild assumptions from what I said so I won't be replying to you anymore, I don't see much sense in responding to nosense.

    It's ok. We forgive you.

    Come back, you're great craic.


  • #68
    curlzy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,708 ✭✭✭curlzy


    ntlbell wrote: »
    It's ok. We forgive you.

    Come back, you're great craic.

    :P You can feck off.


  • #69
    prinz
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    curlzy wrote: »
    Because it's HER body. We are at risk of dragging this off topic, so I won't continue the discussion other than to say that when men are able to be pregnant and give birth I will fight for their right to THEIR bodies. Everyone should have the right to say what happens to their bodies, that goes for both genders..

    That's great....and men only have to start paying maintenance etc once they are able to give birth too. Oh wait no...


  • #70
    problemchimp
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,025 ✭✭✭problemchimp


    consultech wrote: »
    It's actually not that daring a statement. It's common knowledge. It's no coincidence that the system has been subject to attempted rampant reform here in Ireland. It's a real problem.

    As far as the OP's original point goes; Should've worn a condom etc etc. It's not that simple at all though in reality. There are huge grey areas. What about relationships where a girl forgets her pill etc etc? Still the man's fault presumably yeah? Happens a lot.

    IMO we live under a sh1tty sh1tty system that has swung violently away from unmarried fathers' rights etc., as well as holding men strictly accountable without regard to the mother's character or motives.



    2 words: Rent allowance.

    Very naive if you think unmarried mothers' benefits stop at dole + childrens allowance.
    Everybody on the scratcher is entitled to rent allowance, you don't have to have babies or be female for that matter. Like most threads in A.H. we have the usual "it's common knowledge" posts without any real facts. Girls trap men so they can make a social welfare career, foriegners leave buggies at bus stops and they eat our swans. At the end of the day, men should take responsibility for their actions, and I find it insulting to me as a man that we are classed as stupid and use our mickies to do our thinking. The vast majority of men DON'T have illigitimate babies so no big sweeping generalisations please.


  • #71
    Kizza
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 57 ✭✭Kizza


    Kizza wrote: »
    Either way, men should not be forced to pay child maintenance for a child which they didn't want, who is being raised by a mother who the father doesn't even know.
    So should the taxpayer pay for all the kids men dont want? Simple as if men or women dont want children take every precaution possible, if it happens it happens, and with DNA it can be proved. Children cant live on thin air and every taxpayer doesnt want to raise them, people should raise ther own kids


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  • #72
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    mawk wrote: »
    not to mention being the most environmentally unfriendly thing possible. you could drive your fleet of hummers over a field of burning tyres just for fun for months on end and still have a lower environmental impact than that of any parent.
    for reals

    LOL :)

    But really -maintenence is one thing.

    But you want and need to spend time with your kids as people to make it real.

    @Kizza - I dont know how many deadbeat Dads there are in Ireland but there was a thread in the Gentlemens Club last year and the numbers are very small.

    It is a legal issue under the constitution , I believe, that women in that situation have the option not to work, and that seems to have been the case since 1937 -the era of the Magdelene Launderies. Things have changed with the development of the welfare system.

    If the cost of a single mum is 40,000 a year in payments and benefits - families survive on that and its a no brainer that that is a disincentive to work.

    So it is a very emotive subject.

    Other countries tackle it through a subsidised childcare system available to all encouraging all to work and subsidising all working parents thus increasing participation in the workplace.


  • #73
    wolfpawnat
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,124 ✭✭✭wolfpawnat


    jesster wrote: »
    That's my point. If women want to get pregnant for their house and social welfare, why should the man be trapped into a situation they don't want.

    Same can be said for the tax payers who are stuck forking out for the SW bill. I say this as a short term unemployed person myself!


  • #74
    Nevyn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 43,043 ✭✭✭✭Nevyn


    Abortion is not legal here and so can't be made to factor into the laws and legislation do to with child maintenance.


  • #75
    kraggy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,414 ✭✭✭kraggy


    Very simple solution to the problem of single-parenting in this country.

    Provide the morning-after pill over the counter. A girl/woman shouldn't have to go to the doctor to get a prescription for this.

    And condoms should be used in the first place. Preferably in conjunction with the normal pill. That way the above emergency option should only be a contingency.

    And most important of all, the government should at least HALVE the single parents allowance for claims that start 9 months after the announcement. i.e. don't halve the allowances people already get.

    That way, people will be more likely to employ the methods above in the first place.

    In this country, we REWARD people for having children. That has to stop.


  • #76
    HUNK
    Closed Accounts Posts: 383 ✭✭HUNK


    Little Acorn wrote: »
    Why do you not think it's also ridiculous for the men to be having unprotected sex with strangers, why just mention the women?
    They only wouldn't be aware that the woman was not on the pill if they didn't ask or discuss contraception.- In the very unlikely case that the girl lies and says she is, the male still holds some responsibility. I mean, ffs if it's a complete stranger you don't just take their word for it, you use a condom, apart from pregnancy there's also stds.
    Men DO have a choice, they have a choice to use contraception themselves. If it fails, well then that is a risk that they are knowingly taken, and both the man and woman have to take responsibility for accidents.

    I find this post to be quite agreeable. In the case of consensual sex, both parties should share equal responsibility. If pregnancy is something both wish to avoid then measures do have to be taken. Obviously the most extreme measure would be to not have sex which guarantees no pregnancy, but if both individuals are looking for consensual sex and not a baby together then methods will have to be taken by both the man and the woman. The risk is greatly reduced if both use contraception rather than just one of them. If contraception still fails, well that is unfortunate but both were/need to be aware that it can happen and there are still consequences.

    Someone mentioned in this thread that some women make it their "career" to get pregnant and live off of child maintenance, which I imagine has happened. Obviously if the woman is straight up front about it beforehand, then the man can decide to go ahead with it. But if she manipulates the situation (for example, lies about being on the pill) then the man should still be cautious. Sorry if this seems biased against women but I have no doubt that men have manipulated women for sex also. Some people, regardless of gender, will try it on. One night stands can be risky for this reason.

    Anyone willing to approach sex through one night stands are exposing themselves to greater risks in general, I reckon. It would be more difficult to understand the motives of the other person as you most likely don't know them, or know them well enough, as opposed to someone you would be in a relationship with. The thing is, if you are willing to go through one night stands then you will have to face the consequences of your actions.
    Pregnancy, unplanned or otherwise, can be a big deal. The life of another human being is being entered into the equation.

    If you are willing to have a one night stand(s) and put yourself in these situations, then I feel it is important to realize the gravity of the situation that can occur. Obviously you can't feckin' anticipate every possible thing that can happen, but you do generally have control over the big factors (e.g using contraception etc,).

    That's just my take on it I guess.


  • #77
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,387 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    curlzy wrote: »
    Because everyone has the right to their own bodies. Are you actually suggesting that men should be able to force a woman to have an abortion???:eek: Surely you can see how disgusting and wrong that is? Like if a woman decides she doesn't want to have babies should she be allowed to force her OH to have the snip???
    It seems this mostly comes down to ownership for some. Does the child belong to the mother, the father, society or a mix of all three?

    The woman "owns" the kid in utero because it's in her body. The man has no rights at that point, but apparently still has responsibilities. Then when she gives birth, suddenly he gains ownership and more responsibility. But ah ha of course he still doesnt get 50/50 ownership. The mother still has the controlling vote. She can put it up for adoption and essentially have a post natal termination and the daddy still has no rights to try and stop her. Yet the bloke is supposed to be in a 50/50, it takes two to tango relationship and has to pay for the ankle biter even if he didnt want it? Sorry, don't pee down my neck and tell me it's raining, the odds are massively stacked against the father.


    As for the forced snip. I can think of two men who were told by their partner "no more nookie until you have the snip".

    Many worry about Artificial Intelligence. I worry far more about Organic Idiocy.



  • #78
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    Wibbs wrote: »

    As for the forced snip. I can think of two men who were told by their partner "no more nookie until you have the snip".

    That makes it sound like the "one" partner EWWWWWW :eek:


  • #79
    Kizza
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 57 ✭✭Kizza


    CDfm wrote: »
    LOL :)

    But really -maintenence is one thing.

    But you want and need to spend time with your kids as people to make it real.

    @Kizza - I dont know how many deadbeat Dads there are in Ireland but there was a thread in the Gentlemens Club last year and the numbers are very small.

    It is a legal issue under the constitution , I believe, that women in that situation have the option not to work, and that seems to have been the case since 1937 -the era of the Magdelene Launderies. Things have changed with the development of the welfare system.

    If the cost of a single mum is 40,000 a year in payments and benefits - families survive on that and its a no brainer that that is a disincentive to work.

    So it is a very emotive subject.

    Other countries tackle it through a subsidised childcare system available to all encouraging all to work and subsidising all working parents thus increasing participation in the workplace.


    Im sure the no. is low but if the mother is not working and the father wont contribute who will fit the bill? thats my point, a child needs to be looked after and if there is a father out there, either by mistake or whatever he should pay his way. The child has no choice and needs to be paid for.


  • #80
    PeterIanStaker
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,072 ✭✭✭PeterIanStaker


    Absurdum wrote: »
    the wise choice is to give her a fake name and phone number

    I've always been frank with every woman I've slept with . . .

    Don't want em knowing my real name . .


  • #81
    PeterIanStaker
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,072 ✭✭✭PeterIanStaker


    whatsamsn wrote: »
    Dont split hairs carfiosaoorl :)
    we're not talking about the old famous saying "takes two to tango" - which I agree. Personally I like how my dad phrased it .... "if you are going to dip your wick, you got to pay for the oil"


    But let me tell you a story. Knew a girl named Donna once. Was mainly friends of friends. But I chatted to her. We both knew each other.
    Anyways Donna got pregnant. Thing was tho she didnt know who the father was. She had sex with more than one guy around the time of impregnation. Yet she was officially saying it was one certain guy. A guy who had a very good degree under his belt and whos family was anything but short. She confided in a friend that there was no way he was the father but seeing as how out of the bunch he had the most best future. She was saying it was his.

    Sadly she had a Miscarriage :( Which despite what she was doing is very sad. But the truth came out in the end that the accused person was not the father and that she simply said it was him because he had the money / future.


    Im curious what do you say to that?
    All joking aside, I also knew of a similar situation to what whatsamsn has described above. Happened to the ex of an acquaintance.


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  • #82
    curlzy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,708 ✭✭✭curlzy


    prinz wrote: »
    That's great....and men only have to start paying maintenance etc once they are able to give birth too. Oh wait no...

    Jesus don't know why I'm replying but I can't resist. Women DO have to pay maintenance if the guy is looking after the child. There aren't different rules for the genders as you seem to think. The one that doesn't live with the child pays maintenance.


  • #83
    johnmcdnl
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,740 ✭✭✭johnmcdnl


    that's why it's cheaper to wear a jonny


  • #84
    silverspoon
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 361 ✭✭silverspoon


    Wibbs wrote: »
    OK so 50/50 responsibility then? Grand so, but what if the woman decides to terminate the foetus? Does the man have 50/50 input on that decision? I doubt it, so why when the child is born he suddenly does? If a woman should have the right to choice of termination(and IMHO she should) then the man should have the choice of legal "termination" too.

    Hmm, think this post was misread here - I don't want to put words in anyone's mouth here, but I didn't see this as proposing forced abortions, but an option for the man to legally 'emancipate' (not a great word but better than terminate ha) himself from the child.

    It's completely true to say that men's 'rights' are hideously meagre here in comparison to those of the woman's. I'm not going to get into it too much, since Wibbs has iterated a few instances here where men are spat on in terms of their legal stance re: children. (although theoretically it isn't true to say men have no rights - they have the largely useless rights to be informed in the case of adoption unless they can't be found/are the father due to rape; and have the right to apply to be a guardian - which is exceptionally difficult to successfully acquire if the relationship with the mother is very bad/non-existent since that normally means the relationship with the child will be non-existent also....the wealth of legal rights would just warm your heart...:mad:)

    This thread is pretty depressing since, like the law, it assumes the worst of men. Men shouldn't pay maintenance because they have no responsibility since they're basically knuckle-dragging morons, especially when they have a pair of boobs in their hands? Then, at least a lack of responsibility for men would be logically consistent with the current situation where men seem to not be worthy of any rights re: their children, and seen also as totally uninterested in children and will run at the first sign of responsibility. (Not saying everyone is saying this, but the premise argued by the OP is certainly pretty insulting for what it is implying)

    Of course, it's also assuming the worst of women, in that they would intentionally deceive a man in order to get pregnant and abuse both his pockets and those of the taxpayer.


  • #85
    carwash_2006
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 568 ✭✭✭carwash_2006


    Maybe men should start bringing a lawyer along to the club with them and make the woman sign a pre-sex contract. :p Or maybe both partners should bring a lawyer to thrash out the terms of the encounter.

    I was thinking that it made more sense for the man to be able to emancipate himself from the child if the woman doesn't want to have an abortion and he would rather. Thing is there are always going to be problems with the laws regarding children of unmarried parents. Where people haven't made a legal commitment to each other have children you will never fairly distribute responsibility and rights so that everyone is happy. Some men don't want the responsibilities, others do. If you make responsibility a la carte for men, then you can't really protect the rights of the ones that do want it.

    If men want sex then they have to face up to the reality that sex makes babies. Contraception sometimes doesn't work no matter how careful you are, so the only foolproof way to avoid babies is not to have sex. Some women will take advantage of guys for producing babies that they maybe don't want, but life is unfair and some lessons are learned expensively.


  • #86
    Storminateacup
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,424 ✭✭✭Storminateacup


    I haven't read beyond the 1st post - so I'm sorry if this is reiterating what others have said.

    OP - you are an idiot.

    A man doesn't have a choice? If a man is prepared to have a one night stand, and not use protection, that "maintenance" is like an idiot tax. And he should have to pay it.
    You do not assume anybody is on the pill.

    If I skid on ice and hit the car approaching me, I'm still going to be held accountable for making bits of the other car because as a driver, I am responsible for my car, and for taking into account possible outcomes when I choose to drive in icy conditions.

    As a man, I am responsible for wherever I shot my load. It takes two to tango. Sure, the two people involved are idiots, but its not the childs fault. Do the crime, pay the fine!

    If men don't want to be paying maintainance -- wrap it. Simple solution. As I said earlier - idiot tax. Don't rely on other people to take responsibility for your actions.

    I'll be damned if that wasn't the most maddening thing I read this week.


  • #87
    Captain_Generic
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,408 ✭✭✭Captain_Generic


    Storminateacup wrote: »
    If men don't want to be paying maintainance -- wrap it.

    Theres always Boots.....





    to the uterus!


  • #88
    Johro
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,705 ✭✭✭Johro


    whatsamsn wrote: »
    Dare I say,
    Op there are certain women out there that their 'career' is to get knocked up and live off the system or child maintenance.
    What a load of crap. I know there are people, stupid people, out there who really believe this sh1t, but do you seriously think a girl will go through pregnancy and childbirth just to get a benefit and/or a flat? There are plenty of unplanned pregnancies that turn out that way but a career?
    There's plenty of guys out there who father babies and f#ck off though.


  • #89
    Maddison
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,594 ✭✭✭Maddison


    jesster wrote: »
    I'm a 21yo female and think that is really ridiculous that so many girls are going out at my age, having a one night stand, unprotected, and getting pregnant. Then, before the baby is even born, they get in contact with the man, who might have not been aware that the woman was not on the pill, demanding child maintenance.

    Women have a choice if they want to get pregnant. Men don't. As a result, these men are 60 euro down every week and the women are getting rent allowance and enough money to keep her and a baby going while doing sweet FA for it.

    I think the entire system is messed up. I understand if a man and woman are in a relationship, they decide to have a baby and it doesn't work, that he should be responsible financially. But why should a woman be able to trap a man who she doesn't even know? At my age, women should be more independent and responsible. if they want the baby, they should be responsible for it. If not, dont have unprotected. Either way, men should not be forced to pay child maintenance for a child which they didn't want, who is being raised by a mother who the father doesn't even know.

    Its opinions like these that give young single mothers a bad name...yes there are some absolute state leeches out there but what your doing is tarring them all with the one brush.
    I had my son when I was young & myself & his father were not together that long. The condom split. When I found out I was devastated as I was working at the time saving for my round the world trip. My ex convinced me continue with my pregnancy, I did. We struggled every day but rather than have to rely on state benefits we both worked(I more than him mostly)we bought a house, a car & had it all. Unfortunately we split after 7 years....now this may seem like an unusual set up but as I worked mostly nights our son mostly lived with his father so HE is claiming Single Parents Allowance, as I continued to work rather than trying to rely on welfare....I claim nothing for my child. And as much as I love my son, I cant see why any young woman would want to give up a single crazy youth in order to get a few extra quid in her dole...for 18 years of bringing up a child. Parenting is no easy life and especially for single mothers.


  • #90
    ArtSmart
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,610 ✭✭✭ArtSmart


    jesster wrote: »
    I'm a 21yo female and think that is really ridiculous that so many girls are going out at my age, having a one night stand, unprotected, and getting pregnant. Then, before the baby is even born, they get in contact with the man, who might have not been aware that the woman was not on the pill, demanding child maintenance.

    Women have a choice if they want to get pregnant. Men don't. As a result, these men are 60 euro down every week and the women are getting rent allowance and enough money to keep her and a baby going while doing sweet FA for it.

    I think the entire system is messed up. I understand if a man and woman are in a relationship, they decide to have a baby and it doesn't work, that he should be responsible financially. But why should a woman be able to trap a man who she doesn't even know? At my age, women should be more independent and responsible. if they want the baby, they should be responsible for it. If not, dont have unprotected. Either way, men should not be forced to pay child maintenance for a child which they didn't want, who is being raised by a mother who the father doesn't even know.
    jester is spelt with one s.


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  • #91
    Dudess
    Closed Accounts Posts: 37,214 ✭✭✭✭Dudess


    OP, hopefully when you're older you'll look back in mortification at what you've written here.
    Oh, and it isn't a fact that men are out-of-control baboons when it comes to sex just because you SAY they are.


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