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"New law could criminalise men for buying sex" (IT)

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Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,941 ✭✭✭caseyann


    A complete non-sequitar to anything I just said so I do not know why you are saying it to me, but I will continue all the same... though I am having a massive case of Deja Vu... I think you or someone else did EXACTLY this thing on another thread about this very same topic...

    Thankfully there is no reason on offer by you to think it any more than your opinion so it is as well you ended with IMO, let alone an actual fact in reality. In fact your opinion seems not to match reality in any way I can personally discern.

    Just because you do not want to engage in the same enterprise does not mean you get to declare by fiat that anyone who does is not “in right mind”.

    Our subjective opinions on the career choices of others does not reflect on the career choice itself. I would never, for example, want to work in the army, in a mine, in McDonalds, in any kind of direct hands on law enforcement, or with children under the age of 10. Yet people do it all the time, and I do not judge them for it. It is not right for ME to do those jobs, that does not mean I have any right to question the “right mind” of those people.

    It actually did,it was in reference to this.(Even if any of this is true it is still one single anecdote. Just because one person claims to have had a bad experience this does not mean all people in the same career have the same experience)
    Those anecdotes as you call them are far wider and more frequent than you know.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    caseyann wrote: »
    It actually did,it was in reference to this.(Even if any of this is true it is still one single anecdote. Just because one person claims to have had a bad experience this does not mean all people in the same career have the same experience)
    That makes no rational sense. Sorry.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,941 ✭✭✭caseyann


    I think it is very important for some to truly believe that these women WANT to have sex. It is inconceiveable or cannot be allowed into the schema to consider they dont want to be there. It threatens the fantasy.

    What i dont doubt is some of them women become accustomed to their life style and do want to have sex with men and make money as like in porn industry.But the worry is why? And how does it come about.
    If i was a man/woman going to either female or male prostitutes depending on my preference, in good conscience i really couldn't.Because in back of my mind i would have those thoughts why are they doing this and what led them here and feel guilty for taking advantage of god knows what situation.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,856 ✭✭✭✭28064212


    caseyann wrote: »
    Well then i guess in her own home or hotel and she has proven her mental state and she hasnt been coerced or threatened into it then she is free to do that let her pay taxes on it.That way she is safe they know what she does and where she frequents etc..
    And all plumbers, accountants, sewer workers, McDonalds workers and electricians have to prove their mental state before they start working? And work from their own home (somehow)?
    caseyann wrote: »
    And the other jobs are nothing like what you are trying to compare them to.
    Why? At the very least give a reason why you hold that opinion, even if you're not backing it up with anything other than your own statements.

    What about a masseuse btw? What's the difference between the following two scenarios:
    28064212 wrote: »
    A woman decides, competely informed and of her own free will, that, rather than work in McDonalds or go on the dole, she would like to be a prostitute. She was not coerced, she was not trafficked, she is not on drugs, she employs herself, she was not abused as a child, she practices sex that is as safe as possible and she has no hangups about whether men see her as a sex object or not. Should what she wants to do be illegal? Why? Should her clients be criminalised? Why?
    28064212 wrote: »
    A woman decides, competely informed and of her own free will, that, rather than work in McDonalds or go on the dole, she would like to be a masseuse. She was not coerced, she was not trafficked, she is not on drugs, she employs herself, she was not abused as a child, and she has no hangups about whether men see her as a sex object or not. Should what she wants to do be illegal? Why? Should her clients be criminalised? Why?

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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,376 ✭✭✭metrovelvet


    Why did you post that in response to nozzferrahhtoo's post - there's practically no connection between it and your response.

    That's an interesting bit of psychobabble. Is it an opinion or has anything here been said by anyone to back it up?

    It's an opinion, no need to demean it by calling it psychobabble.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,856 ✭✭✭✭28064212


    I think it is very important for some to truly believe that these women WANT to have sex. It is inconceiveable or cannot be allowed into the schema to consider they dont want to be there. It threatens the fantasy.
    It's an opinion, no need to demean it by calling it psychobabble.
    The problem is you're assigning meaning to other people's posts based on... well, nothing as far as I can see. I have no idea whether there are women (or men for that matter, it's not an exclusive profession) who want to sell their sexual services. I do know that there are women who are in the profession that don't want to be.

    But none of that makes the slightest bit of difference to the fact that if someone exists that does want to sell a sexual service, there is no reason in the world that they shouldn't be allowed to

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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,376 ✭✭✭metrovelvet


    28064212 wrote: »
    The problem is you're assigning meaning to other people's posts based on... well, nothing as far as I can see. I have no idea whether there are women (or men for that matter, it's not an exclusive profession) who want to sell their sexual services. I do know that there are women who are in the profession that don't want to be.

    But none of that makes the slightest bit of difference to the fact that if someone exists that does want to sell a sexual service, there is no reason in the world that they shouldn't be allowed to

    Do you have stats on conviction rates?

    Because from what I can see they are allowed to.

    Would be ok with your daughter doing it? How about your mother?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    It's an opinion, no need to demean it by calling it psychobabble.
    You were attempting to give a psychological diagnosis based upon opinion, not even anything said by anybody here - that it why I called it psychobabble.

    To call it that does not so much demean it as returns it back to the level of objective credibility it deserves.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,080 ✭✭✭Gunsfortoys


    I would vote against it.

    I agree it should be regulated to protect the people involved in selling it. Trafficking would subside and people would be protected.

    I cannot see how anyone other than women with an obvious chip on their shoulder, or blinkered hard line feminists would agree to this law.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,376 ✭✭✭metrovelvet


    You were attempting to give a psychological diagnosis based upon opinion, not even anything said by anybody here - that it why I called it psychobabble.

    To call it that does not so much demean it as returns it back to the level of objective credibility it deserves.

    Nowhere did I give a diagnosis. I nowhere mentioned, hinted or suggested anything remotely related to mental illness.

    It deserves whatever credibility people want to give it. Just because you dont like it doesn't mean others wouldn't find some credence in it or that it doesnt deserve credence. You called it psychobabble as a put down, plain and simple.

    That is the nature of opinion, which is different from diagnosis, and yes you did demean it, only because you dont agree with it.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,856 ✭✭✭✭28064212


    Do you have stats on conviction rates?

    Because from what I can see they are allowed to.
    So because a law isn't currently enforced, we should keep it? And there are prostitution prosecutions in this country
    Would be ok with your daughter doing it? How about your mother?
    This old argument. No. Of course there are many hundreds of jobs I don't want my daughter to work as. It's her choice though. Should I lock her up so that she can't do anything I don't want her too? I would be no more opposed to her working as a safe, regulated prostitute than I would be with her working in many other currently legal jobs

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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,376 ✭✭✭metrovelvet


    I would vote against it.

    I agree it should be regulated to protect the people involved in selling it. Trafficking would subside and people would be protected.

    I cannot see how anyone other than women with an obvious chip on their shoulder, or blinkered hard line feminists would agree to this law.

    A lot of feminists are pro prostitution. They would follow the same philosophy as 280 about it.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    Nowhere did I give a diagnosis.
    Actually you diagnosed the psychological motive for some - that is how you framed it - and not as an opinion.
    It deserves whatever credibility people want to give it. Just because you dont like it doesn't mean others wouldn't find some credence in it.
    And I gave it the credibility I wanted to give it, based upon the manner in which you dressed it up.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,376 ✭✭✭metrovelvet


    Actually you diagnosed the psychological motive for some - that is how you framed it - and not as an opinion.

    And I gave it the credibility I wanted to give it, based upon the manner in which you dressed it up.

    No I didnt. I did not do any sort of diagnosis because this has nothing to do with mental illness.

    People like to imagine things in one way and they do not like other possibilities to enter their imaginations when they are asserting their opinions and projections.

    That is NOT diagnosis. Its not even in the realm of psychology, and even if it were you still cannot call someone's opinion 'psychobabble' without it being anything but a put down.

    Are you done " babbling? "


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    Its not even in the realm of psychology
    I think we can agree upon that.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 15,914 ✭✭✭✭tbh


    I think it is very important for some to truly believe that these women WANT to have sex. It is inconceiveable or cannot be allowed into the schema to consider they dont want to be there. It threatens the fantasy.

    I find this hugely ironic. It is obviously very important for you to believe the opposite of the above. You are as close minded as those you seek to deride with that post. What you are demonstrating is arrogance - you're saying that anyone who has an opinion contrary to yours is a fantasist.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 15,914 ✭✭✭✭tbh


    That's an interesting bit of psychobabble. Is it an opinion or has anything here been said by anyone to back it up?

    ok, this is the last warning on this I'm going to give. I've warned you and metro very clearly about these derisory remarks. Its becoming apparent that you are ignoring our efforts to keep this forum a pleasant place to post - so I'm going to say, one final time, if you cannot make your point without making these types of remarks, then the only solution is to remove you from the forum.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,376 ✭✭✭metrovelvet


    tbh wrote: »
    I find this hugely ironic. It is obviously very important for you to believe the opposite of the above. You are as close minded as those you seek to deride with that post. What you are demonstrating is arrogance - you're saying that anyone who has an opinion contrary to yours is a fantasist.

    No that is not what I am saying, but however I will not bother anymore with it since this is now the second time you have practised the very thing you have warned me about doing on this thread and its hardly an equal playing field if you can throw comments around like 'all in your head' [obviously labelling me a hallucinating fantasist] and 'demonstrating arrogance' making further personalised comments while I risk getting banned by you if I do the same.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 15,914 ✭✭✭✭tbh


    Oroel has asked for one of her posts to be removed. Under the circumstances, I've agreed to it, and I've also deleted referencing posts - I know some of those posts took a long time to write, and so it was a decision that was not taken lightly. However. As I said, given the circumstances I think it's the right thing to do.


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  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,838 ✭✭✭midlandsmissus


    Reward the "used for sex" thing as said by women means this.

    You meet a guy, he says he really likes you, he can't believe he has such a connection with you, he thinks you are "the one", he calls and texts you every day, you really like him aswell.

    You sleep with him. The minute after you sleep with him he goes stone cold on you and doesn't want to know you.

    This is what leads women to feel used for sex. That a man can completely lie to them to get what he wants, (sex) and then ditch them. This makes you feel worthless as a human being.

    This happened to me once, and I thought for ages, "how could I have been so wrong? How did I get it so wrong?"

    This is why women feel used. I sometimes think men don't realise the hurt they can inflict on women in this type of scenario.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,770 ✭✭✭Bottle_of_Smoke


    Reward the "used for sex" thing as said by women means this.

    You meet a guy, he says he really likes you, he can't believe he has such a connection with you, he thinks you are "the one", he calls and texts you every day, you really like him aswell.

    You sleep with him. The minute after you sleep with him he goes stone cold on you and doesn't want to know you.

    This is what leads women to feel used for sex. That a man can completely lie to them to get what he wants, (sex) and then ditch them. This makes you feel worthless as a human being.

    This happened to me once, and I thought for ages, "how could I have been so wrong? How did I get it so wrong?"

    This is why women feel used. I sometimes think men don't realise the hurt they can inflict on women in this type of scenario.

    Trust me - that goes both ways. Just men don't admit to feeling hurt about it and girls don't realise they should feel guilty about it.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,289 ✭✭✭parker kent


    This is why women feel used. I sometimes think men don't realise the hurt they can inflict on women in this type of scenario.

    Some men don't, not all men. There is a big difference. The same way that some women don't realise the hurt they can cause men. Men are not emotionless robots programmed to have sex with as many women as possible. Some men will use women, but there will be men used for sex too. It is just not as socially acceptable for a man to come out and say "I feel used".


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,144 ✭✭✭Scanlas The 2nd


    One phrase I think is potentially damaging to women that goes around is "selling yourself" in reference to having sex for money. It implies the only worth women have is sex. It implies a woman's value equals the sex that she can give you.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,376 ✭✭✭metrovelvet


    Somehow I can't imagine that someone who sucks cock for a living wants to pay prsi, self employment tax, public liability insurance, and a 13% service charge to the government.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,614 ✭✭✭ArtSmart


    iptba wrote: »
    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2011/0103/1224286669821.html

    I'm sure loads of men will welcome this law for one reason or another but I won't be one of them.

    I have never used a prostitude nor have I plans to use one.

    But I recall seeing cases of women in a region having a "sex ban" to force the men in the community to do something or other.

    yeah? on tv was it? wasn't that the show with the robot sex slaves?

    It effectively can/could mean women have all the power.

    effectively

    A question of supply and demand - if there is a monopoly on the supply, the price can be set very high.

    Luckily 'you never will' 'use' a prostitute so that wont effect you. - oh wait, the 'sex ban', i forgot.

    Prostitution may stop this monopoly to an extent. Or another way of putting it is that one could have a women-controlled state, where men are slaves because women institute sex bans until they get what they want. All dramatic sounding I know.

    not at all. (cough, nutter, cough)


    And I'm sure lots of PC men will revel in disagreeing and feel all superior. But that's the beauty of the internet - one can express non-PC views.

    ah yes, the beauty of it all.

    Unfortunately politicians can't afford to not be PC so I imagine this will probably go through.

    poor politicians. damn you PC, damn you to hell!

    I'm not even sure if many people would write in to newspapers to complain?

    Part of my reasoning is that I'm not convinced every woman is forced to do it. It might not have been her first career choice but lots of people including lots of men do jobs that wouldn't be their career choice. I certainly wouldn't want to work a mile underground in a mine in dangerous conditions for example. On a more mundane level, not many children (or their parents) would hope they would grow up to clean toilets for a living or whatever.


    *sigh*
    what's the point.

    all that reasoning.

    wow.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,897 ✭✭✭iptba


    ArtSmart wrote: »
    all that reasoning.

    wow.
    Ditto


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 15,914 ✭✭✭✭tbh


    I think everyone who has something to say on this issue has now said it. Seeing as we're now reduced to "you're stupid" "no you're stupid" it's time to close. If ye have anything final to add, do it now, will close the thread tonight.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,614 ✭✭✭ArtSmart


    just read through iptba's posts.

    all clearer now.

    best wishes dude.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,838 ✭✭✭midlandsmissus


    Originally Posted by Reward
    Yes, you set a price of secondary benefits, "being the one" (commitment, emotional investment, time) he faked your secondary benefit requirement price in order to have sex with you and never paid you your ongoing investment. So you were used for sex.


    Does the concept of "liking some-one" ever come into it for you?

    Women don't have sex to get commitment. I've never had sex with some-one to get them to stay with me. I've had sex with people because I really liked them and I wanted to have sex with them.

    When you really like some-one you want to have sex with them and you want to be around them (commitment as you say), so in my scenario I really liked the person, but he faked his personality, in effect lying to some-one to get what he wanted.

    Also, a point I think you're severely missing. Men and women have different needs and different levels of importance on things. Imagine how important sex is to you, that is how important emotional bonding is to women. If neither get their needs met, they feel like they are being used.

    If you a brought out a woman on a load of dates and were very romantic with her, but there was no sex, you would start to feel used right?

    It works both ways. We have differnt things that are important to us. Both sexes like each of these things but one takes paramount importance to each gender.

    How can you expect men and women to think exactly the same? We are different on every aspect, the polar opposite of each other mentally and physically. we have different needs and we complement each other.


This discussion has been closed.
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