US Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords shot (other persons killed or injured)

Anonymous1987 · 09-01-2011 02:02AM

cavedave wrote: »

Legal insanity has a very strict definition. Its not something you can diagnose over youtube.

We use mental illness as a label to people who we want to marginalise and ignore. If he is just mental we can ignore him. If however he is legally sane it means we can ignore them. For example the unabomber is claimed to be insane because he refuses to claim he is insane to get out of the death penalty. Yet if you read his manifesto its not really the ramblings of a madman as far as I can tell. And other like Kevin Kelly agree that his analysis is clear. So Theodore Kaczynski's manifesto is not just insane ramblings. Even though I dont agree with it and even if his methods of violence are abhorrent.

Having had a look at Kaczynski's experience at college with abusive psychological experiments, this could have had a long term impact. A highly logical mind might rationalise resentment against what he perceived to be the root cause of this abuse, in this case manifesting itself in militant anarchasim. Pure speculation and not a case for insanity but rather mental illness. Still, Kaczynski's arguments against the industrial revolution would seem to tie in with his own experiences of becoming victim of the applied scientific method which was so important to technological development.

kaiser sauze · 09-01-2011 02:20AM

Giffords has been confirmed as the target. That's the end of the myth that this was anything but the hate speech that has been peddled by the right as the cause.

"Mental issue" is being put forward as the reason the suspect did it, and the issue of the vitriol and rhetoric affecting those of unsound mind-exactly as I pointed out earlier-has been raised. "This country has become The Mecca for bigots and haters" - AZ County Sheriff, Clarence Dupnik

kaiser sauze · 09-01-2011 02:21AM

19 people shot. :eek:

kaiser sauze · 09-01-2011 02:22AM

7 minute ordeal, two people tackled the shooter, there was NO exchange of gunfire. There was still ammunition in the gun and there was no formal security.

kaiser sauze · 09-01-2011 02:23AM

6 dead.

The Judge and 9 year old (some say girl other say boy) are only two I am sure about.

kaiser sauze · 09-01-2011 02:32AM

Second unidentified suspect being sought.

Jared Loughner has invoked his rights and is not speaking.

kaiser sauze · 09-01-2011 02:35AM

The Sheriff again, repeated his point about the hate speech, vitriol and bigotry in media and public discourse.

He is the Sheriff of Pima County, AZ, Clarence Dupnik.

Sand · 09-01-2011 02:40AM

kaiser sauze wrote: »

Jared Loughner has invoked his rights and is not speaking.

If the aimless rants and tirades about currencies back by gold, god and dreaming/sleepwalking attributed to him are anything to go by thats probably a good thing.

Jonny7 · 09-01-2011 02:43AM

white1awake wrote: »

Ah yes, another 'genius' from the shamed Island of broke beggars chimes in with his opinion on a woman with a long term happy marriage, a woman not too proud to say she is a Christian, a woman who doesn't kill her own children in the womb despite the 'inconvenience' it might cause her, a woman who made over 12 million dollars last year, a woman who looks better at age 46 and after giving birth to 5 kids than 70% of the women here........yeah, what an 'idiot'.
Like I said, it would do a lot of people here well to try a little humble pie and see where the values of someone like Sarah Palin might lead them to a better way of life.
But since that would require you giving up your love of liberalism, we can pretty much forget it.

This is just... wow

Anyway I think hes been banned

Quite a defining moment, a sad one, politicians in the States look like they'll prob have to physically distance themselves from the public now.

PeakOutput · 09-01-2011 02:46AM

its pityfull that nothing can be discussed about american politics without constant childishness from both sides

first page of the thread someone tries to make a political point on guns

every page since then constant irrelevant points scoring and petty insults from both sides

people need to grow up me thinks

penana · 09-01-2011 02:58AM

mgmt wrote: »

... but placing the blame onto Palin over the actions of a madman is a stretch.

Ah, but as someone currently -- and sadly solely due to poverty preventing me from moving back home to Ireland -- stuck living in the US at the minute, I can tell you I've seen/heard/read enough of Palin to have no doubt she is a vicious, ignorant, dangerous woman who revels in spouting hate-filled rhetoric at every possible opportunity.

Believe me, there is no bloody "stretch" involved in placing the blame squarely on that madwomen for "... the actions of a madman ..."

EastTexas · 09-01-2011 03:14AM

PeakOutput wrote: »

its pityfull that nothing can be discussed about american politics without constant childishness from both sides

first page of the thread someone tries to make a political point on guns

every page since then constant irrelevant points scoring and petty insults from both sides

people need to grow up me thinks

Well said,
When a woman is fighting for her life, several people are dead including a child and a federal judge and so many injured and traumatized….it’s in incredible poor taste to exploit this via conjecture for political hay making and partisan hackery.
Especially when we’re all still so short on the facts, motive and back story leading up to this wicked deed.

kaiser sauze · 09-01-2011 03:19AM

EastTexas wrote: »

Well said,
When a woman is fighting for her life, several people are dead including a child and a federal judge and so many injured and traumatized….it’s in incredible poor taste to exploit this via conjecture for political hay making and partisan hackery.
Especially when we’re all still so short on the facts, motive and back story leading up to this wicked deed.

I will accept the words of the Pima County Sheriff.

Thank you.

EastTexas · 09-01-2011 03:31AM

kaiser sauze wrote: »

I will accept the words of the Pima County Sheriff.

Thank you.

That’s part of the problem….
When you blindly accept the words and opinions others sans understanding the context.

kaiser sauze · 09-01-2011 03:43AM

EastTexas wrote: »

That’s part of the problem….
When you blindly accept the words and opinions others sans understanding the context.

Would you please stop with the underhanded insults of my intelligence?

Thanks.

You accused me in the other thread of not understanding the breath[sic] of US sources and now you accuse me of not understanding the context.

When a Sheriff goes in front of cameras, mindful of prejudicing any investigation, and states for the record that the vitriol is the main reason for this shooting, that the Congresswoman was no doubt the target and that this was not the first incident involving this Representative and I add that to the discourse, led by people like Palin over the last two years in particular, I have all the context I need.

Care to pop over to the other thread and answer my question about the US economy under Democratic Congress'? Or are you going to continue to hide behind an unrelated mod warning?

Overheal · 09-01-2011 05:19AM

amacachi wrote: »

I dunno, close range through-and-through to the temple, sounds like she was targetted.

And the 9 year old girl? Your reasoning is thin. The possibility that she was not the priority target is merited. However given that it was her event, she would seem the likely target. The investigation also seems to be based off this, and based off the motive of vitriol. Whether or not this is true in reality is yet uncertain, but that is the angle the Investigation will surely lean on.

kaiser sauze wrote: »

http://www.takebackthe20.com/ is now not loading.

Fortunately, google cached it

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:koF70deULPgJ:www.takebackthe20.com/+www.takebackthe20.com&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&client=firefox-a

I'm sure there are other crawler systems that will have a record of the site in its databases also.

kaiser sauze wrote: »

It's quite excruciating watching Fox, not once have they mentioned her vote for ACA and how she he in favour of immigration reform. It's barely noted that she is a Democrat either.

Her being a Democrat has not a lot to do with how one should feel about the visceral nature of the act of violence. It might hold relevance during the investigation, surely. But in the hours when we didn't even know if she is alive? Minutiae.

kaiser sauze wrote: »

Sarah Palin 'target picture', posted here early in thread, is no longer on her website.

I stole it and moved it to my facebook wall, underneath news of the shooting.

GuanYin wrote: »

I think it's a bit too early to start pointing fingers in what led the shooter to action.

Yes, the tea party and specifically Palin use language that is irresponsible to rile up their followers, but generally, the type of person who shoots into a crowd of people needs very little encouragement and will always find a reason.

I agree that Palin, Rushbo, Hannitys and Beck by themselves would not drive a personal of reasonable fortitude to such violence. However they do a great job of resonating with sympathetic ears and driving them into a sense of dread, followed by "How you can stop it".

I couldn't convict any of them of committing/enciting this act, but I would definitely see an end to their brand of media, which involves hype for the sake of hyped ratings.

I'm a bit sad that so much focus has shifted to Palin, as it give her an opportunity for PR. We also have to reconcile the fact that we can't label Palin as a hick idiot and then simultaneously paint her as a mastermind behind an assassination (which is something the liberal blogsphere is busy doing).

That's absolutely ridiculous of course. Palin would never have plotted or condoned this attack. However, she thinks politics is a game, and she didn't appear to realize how her actions could be interpreted by the Fringe. For that, I hope she has learned a very critical lesson.

Either she's dumb and the rhetoric she uses is because she's dumb and she really believes it does no harm OR she's very smart and is playing on the fanaticism of her followers to get results. Can't have it both ways.

In reality, I think she's just irresponsible and plays the "win at all costs" politics that has dominated US and world politics for too long.

In any case, I'm just happy that Giffords looks like she'll pull through. The fallout from this may not be pretty though.

Thoughts and condolences to the families of those lost in the tragic act.

Agreed. I appear to have typed ahead of myself and we're of the same mind on the Palin issue

GuanYin · 09-01-2011 06:58AM

Overheal wrote: »

And the 9 year old girl? Your reasoning is thin. The possibility that she was not the priority target is merited. However given that it was her event, she would seem the likely target. The investigation also seems to be based off this, and based off the motive of vitriol. Whether or not this is true in reality is yet uncertain, but that is the angle the Investigation will surely lean on.

I think when it comes to the overall actual actions of the shooter, his alleged mental instability is likely to be a factor as to why he continued shooting into a crowd of people.

Given what is know about him so far, it appears that Giffords was the intended target, whether as a general figurehead for the shooters mental insecurities or as a target of the vitriolic propaganda from the tea party. However, until more is know about the mental health of the shooter, the level the propaganda may have played is questionable... as I said, I speculate he would be of the disposition that would have found some cause to go shooting up a crowd sooner or later.

It should be noted that a suspect device was apparently found at Giffords office, which, if true, makes it look more targeted than first believed, but I think this needs to be confirmed.

troposphere · 09-01-2011 10:23AM

5:09: Saying Jared Laughner was the gunman. Really hoping that's not the same guy I went to HS with, really good friend. Freaking out right now!!!
5:09: Official I went to high school & college, & was in a band w/ the gunman. I can't even fathom this right now.
5:32: He was a political radical & met Giffords once before in '07, asked her a question & he told me she was "stupid & unintelligent"
5:34 he was a pot head & into rock like Hendrix,The Doors, Anti-Flag. I haven't seen him in person since '07 in a sign language class
5:36 As I knew him he was left wing, quite liberal. & oddly obsessed with the 2012 prophecy.
5:40 he had a lot of friends until he got alcohol poisoning in '06, & dropped out of school. Mainly loner very philosophical.
6:09 This is a circus. Good Morning America just called me.

caitieparker i get sense that he's just anti-establishment; not really a liberal or conservative; his views seem not fullyformed or mature

johnedelstein liberal in wanting to change the way the world was run, we both wanted to. He took it to an extreme I never would've.

johnedelstein also probably more libertarian & definitely socially liberal.

Mr. Loughner had exhibited increasingly strange behavior in recent months, including ominous Internet postings — at least one showing a gun — and a series of videos in which he made disjointed statements on topics like the gold standard and mind control.

He had posted on his Myspace page at some point a photograph of a United States history textbook, on top of which he had placed a handgun. He prepared a series of Internet videos filled with rambling statements on topics including the gold standard, mind control and SWAT teams. And he had started to act oddly during his classes at Pima Community College, causing unease among other students.

Don Coorough, 58, who sat two desks in front of Mr. Loughner in a poetry class last semester, described him as a “troubled young man” and “emotionally underdeveloped.” After another student read a poem about getting an abortion, Mr. Loughner compared the young woman to a “terrorist for killing the baby.”

I would say this probably has more to do with this guy having a mental issue like schizophrenia than being influenced by strong political beliefs.

Liberal but anti-abortion
Favorite books include Mein Kampf but also Wizard of Oz
Believes in return to gold standard but also that world will end in 2012

EastTexas · 09-01-2011 11:36AM

I surmise that opportunity possibility played a much larger part in targeting Gabrielle Giffords and perhaps not political party affiliation at all.
The fellow lived just a few blocks down the road with his mother.
Has recently been rejected by the military, a troubled past including a criminal record.
By his YouTube postings holds a very strong world views but with no apparent particular preference of political affiliation.
His reading list sure mixes it up.
And frankly considering the deed and target I was initially surprised the “Turner Diaries” where not on that list.
But then again we can’t expect an obviously confused if not deranged person to be consistent.

Given his living proximity to the event and his general disenchantment with Government/ Authority and the easy access to a representative of Government due to the location and setting, I wonder if it would have made a bit of difference whether a Democrat or Republican came within his reach.

All aside that Gabrielle Giffords is an ex Republican now Blue Dog Democrat with an impressive record of bipartisanship.
As much in opposition to the Federal lawsuit challenging Arizona’s controversial new immigration law as the passing of the law it’s self, whilst taken an avid stand for improved and more stringent border security.
She is a strong supporter of the 2nd Amendment and a gun owner but also voted for “healthcare”.
In short a true Moderate always willing to work across the isle as her record shows.
Ego, she would have been a poor choice of target to purely make a political point regardless of which side you’re on.

Of course all this is still conjecture until we find out more, but one fact remains
She came within walking distance into “ his territory” thus providing easy opportunity to an individual with hate in his heart and a finger on the trigger.

Additionally, in the past politically motivated assassins usually only targeted the person of their choice to make that point but didn’t go on indiscriminate shooting sprees hurting “innocent” bystanders because in their minds this would only diminish their “ noble endeavor” and mute the point they hoped to make altogether.

Dozen Wicked Words · 09-01-2011 11:53AM

Interesting (IMO) about the shooting and Arizona's politics on the BBC website, article HERE.

I wonder if Arizona can be seen as an indication of wider problems in US politics or is that too simplistic?

amacachi · 09-01-2011 11:56AM

Overheal wrote: »

And the 9 year old girl? Your reasoning is thin. The possibility that she was not the priority target is merited. However given that it was her event, she would seem the likely target. The investigation also seems to be based off this, and based off the motive of vitriol. Whether or not this is true in reality is yet uncertain, but that is the angle the Investigation will surely lean on.

I would hazard a wiiiiiiild guess that he didn't go for all 19 or 20 people he shot by going close-up and shooting them in the head, that after the first couple shots most people will have moved and it would have been difficult for him to go close-range on all the others. With that in mind I thought it was fairly logical to assume that the close-range shots would have been first, because it would have been easier to get close to one of the victims before any other shots had been fired and from this it leads me to think that she was more than likely the first or one of the first shot which leads me to believe that she may well have been a target. If you'd like to specifically point out where I'm making a big leap there then please, feel free.
At the start of the breaking story I was open to the idea that it could have been someone getting back at one of her staffers, someone pissed at the judge or any number of other scenarios but once I heard she was shot at close range I was fairly sure that she was targetted.

Einhard · 09-01-2011 12:04PM

ET, would you not accept that a lot of the rhetoric from the Tea party and more rightwing conservatives, has been extremely inflammatory oiver the past year? Gifford herself made reference to it in the Autumn, and warned that there might be consequences arising from the vitriol heaped on her by some on the Right. Indeed, the Tea party chairman of the district represented by Gifford has admitted that he and his fellow political travellers were often guilty of reckless language, which could be taken out of context. Now, someone who fails to distinguish the metaphorical nature of Palin's "crosshairs" is obviously deranged, but that doesn't take away from the fact that much of the commentary from the right has been unnecessarily incendiary and divisive. And irresponsible. It's a problem that the Right in America has I think, whereby frustration at political setbacks or liberal sucesses, can manifest itself in extreme and violent ways. The militia movement exploded across America during Clinton's tenure, diminished under Bush, and surged again once Obama was elected. The Oklahoma bombing was carried out by a member of one of these groups, who was fuelled by a hatred of liberals. Two years ago, there were calls at a McCain rally for Obama to be murdered. And this before he was even elected! So, IMO, and I wouldn't call necessarily call myself a dyed in the wool liberal, that sections of he Right in America do have a serious problem when it comes to dealing with political setbacks, and that some conservative politicians, perhaps unwittingly, encourage such resentment and hatred amongst their constituents. I'd be interested in your thoughts on this.

EastTexas · 09-01-2011 12:09PM

dooferoaks wrote: »

Interesting (IMO) about the shooting and Arizona's politics on the BBC website, article HERE.

I wonder if Arizona can be seen as an indication of wider problems in US politics or is that too simplistic?

Since this is still unfolding and we’re all still so short on fact and back story leading up to this, the real affront is the political hay-making, posturing and continued conjecture in the interest of fanning the flames partisanship and “team spirit” at all cost, whilst the blood has barely dried and some are still fighting for their life.
If anything sad to see the BBC jump on that band wagon too.
I guess its catnip laced with crack for the media.

Until we learn of the motive from the suspected shooter(s) ….it’s all meaningless and nothing but political theater.
That said, it’s not like it’s the first time people got shot.

Dozen Wicked Words · 09-01-2011 12:18PM

EastTexas wrote: »

Since this is still unfolding and we’re all still so short on fact and back story leading up to this, the real affront is the political hay-making, posturing and continued conjecture in the interest of fanning the flames partisanship and “team spirit” at all cost, whilst the blood has barely dried and some are still fighting for their life.
If anything sad to see the BBC jump on that band wagon too.
I guess its catnip laced with crack for the media.

Until we learn of the motive from the suspected shooter(s) ….it’s all meaningless and nothing but political theater.
That said, it’s not like it’s the first time people got shot.

Not talking specifically about the shooting, Arizona seemed deeply divided before this tradegy.

Monty Burnz · 09-01-2011 12:21PM

Even if this shooting was not inspired by the 'traitor' vitriol spewed by America's hard right, the fact that we are discussing it at all tells you all you need to know - nobody would be surprised if something of that sort happened.

The American hard right needs to take a long look at itself and its methods. Why do they continue to crank up the fear/treachery/'unamerican' rhetoric? And I'm no leftie by any means.

EastTexas · 09-01-2011 12:51PM

Einhard wrote: »

ET, would you not accept that a lot of the rhetoric from the Tea party and more rightwing conservatives, has been extremely inflammatory oiver the past year? Gifford herself made reference to it in the Autumn, and warned that there might be consequences arising from the vitriol heaped on her by some on the Right. Indeed, the Tea party chairman of the district represented by Gifford has admitted that he and his fellow political travellers were often guilty of reckless language, which could be taken out of context. Now, someone who fails to distinguish the metaphorical nature of Palin's "crosshairs" is obviously deranged, but that doesn't take away from the fact that much of the commentary from the right has been unnecessarily incendiary and divisive. And irresponsible. It's a problem that the Right in America has I think, whereby frustration at political setbacks or liberal sucesses, can manifest itself in extreme and violent ways. The militia movement exploded across America during Clinton's tenure, diminished under Bush, and surged again once Obama was elected. The Oklahoma bombing was carried out by a member of one of these groups, who was fuelled by a hatred of liberals. Two years ago, there were calls at a McCain rally for Obama to be murdered. And this before he was even elected! So, IMO, and I wouldn't call necessarily call myself a dyed in the wool liberal, that sections of he Right in America do have a serious problem when it comes to dealing with political setbacks, and that some conservative politicians, perhaps unwittingly, encourage such resentment and hatred amongst their constituents. I'd be interested in your thoughts on this.

Not to be evasive, but at this point without much fact, not even knowing the motive of the shooter if not shooters and lack of back story leading up to this, I can honestly see no correlation to the Teaparty or any other party.
Ergo your question is based on conjecture on THIS topic, thus almost OT.

None·the·less, your post to me is fair and worthy of discussion in general regarding the increasingly vitriolic rhetoric from both sides.
And from the looks of it, no longer limited the US as increasing numbers of European are taken a deep interest in our DOMESTIC policies and sadly follow the same modus operandi.
Therefore will give it some thinking over and respond to you later.

Not to criticize and just as a personal favor to me…..
Is there a chance, that you could use some paragraphs?
A block of words is difficult to read for me being dyslexic….no kidding and just humbly asking.

troposphere · 09-01-2011 01:21PM

Monty Burnz wrote: »

The American hard right needs to take a long look at itself and its methods. Why do they continue to crank up the fear/treachery/'unamerican' rhetoric? And I'm no leftie by any means.

Because as long as the Republicans are able to use that anger and help build it up when they get kicked out of power then it is not going to go away.

The Democrats do the same thing. Funny how all those anti-war protesters faded from public view after Obama got elected.

Bruthal · 09-01-2011 01:27PM

The 9 year old girl was born on 11-9-2001, born on one well known date and died on another now.

EastTexas · 09-01-2011 01:31PM

dooferoaks wrote: »

Not talking specifically about the shooting, Arizona seemed deeply divided before this tradegy.

Yes and no, it’s more complex than that.
Arizona is a borders state and therefore suffers from particular problems other states not at the border don’t
The problem is not immigration or immigrants but illegal immigration.

It is incredibly misleading by some the left to paint this stance against illegal immigration as anti immigrant if not racist and equality as disingenuous by some of the right to paint illegal immigrants as more likely to be criminals.
Get what I mean.

In the end we all champion better border security but differ on how to implement this.
Because of the lack of attention to the ongoing and escalation problem by the federal government, Arizona has taken the initiative to help remedy this with the controversial new laws but also and many argue foremost to send a message to the federal government, that further inaction will not longer stand.

Personally I don’t believe that police should be tasked with checking immigration statuses.
That really isn’t part of their job description i the US and also erodes faith and trust toward law enforcement and also makes illegal immigrants easier targets for crime since they are now without protection for fear of discovery.

But again the culprit is the past inaction and lack of attention to Arizona’s problem by the federal Government.
At least they have their attention now and that is a step forward despite it all.

P.S. can somebody answer this for me, please?
Does European or Irish police check the immigration status of people they encounter if they appear to be foreign and suspect of being there illegally?
I know the German police does and will retain you immediately upon discovery.
Even at a routine traffic stop.

Manic Moran · 09-01-2011 01:52PM

mgmt wrote: »

This picture is going around Twitter alot atm:

Jesse Kelly ran against this Rep. in last years election.

I'd say they were using her face as target practice on the gun range.

Oh, for crying out loud. This is Arizona, we're talking about, where guns are a fundamental part of life, and after New Hampshire and maybe Pennsylvania is one of the most pro-gun States in the Union. It's one of the few States where you don't need a permit to carry concealed, and any politician who even proposes limiting firearms is likely to not get elected.

Shooting is a day out there. It's about the same as having an Irish politician hold a puc fada event. It's not something insidious.

also shooting a M16 clip at Rep Gabrielle at the gun range

I had a quick hunt around for verification of that one, I have found nothing to indicate that they used images of Rep Gabrielle as the targets in that event.

This is a tragedy, the political motivation of the gunman is redundant in my opinion, he is clearly mentally unstable.

I'm inclined to agree. He didn't just go after the politician, he went after everyone present.

Sarah Palin 'target picture', posted here early in thread, is no longer on her website.

You have to admit, it would be kindof insensitive for her to leave it up.

The Sheriff again, repeated his point about the hate speech, vitriol and bigotry in media and public discourse.

And he's right. He's also quite right that he didn't say that it was a comment he was reserving specifically for the right or the left, the partisan divide in the US is huge and works both ways.

NTM

US Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords shot (other persons killed or injured)

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