Why Is Ireland So Afraid Of Progress?

thetonynator · 07-01-2011 01:55PM

RockinRolla wrote: »

You're so disenchanted with modern reality, it's absurd.

Someone please HELP US ALL if those morons Fianna Fail EVER GET INTO GOVERNMENT AGAIN! They are NOT a democratic party! Explain why they **** on the Freedom of Information Act? Why did they restrict Irish citizens from understanding what they were doing to this country!? Go on SAY IT!

They were voted for 3 times unfortunately, which gives them the mandate to do whatever they want, within the constitution, and pending the approval of the seanad and the president.

orourkeda · 07-01-2011 01:57PM

seamus wrote: »

No clearly we'd prefer to pretend that none of this happens and instead we have beaten & abused hookers in private buildings, lads stoned out of their mind anyway, and thousands of aborted babies exported to the UK.

Irish politicians simply have no testicles when it comes to the difficult issues. They cow-tow to the catholic church and stick their fingers in their ears.

Whereas they should be cow girling a hooker with their fingers up their arse

humanji · 07-01-2011 01:57PM

OP, I kind of agree with what you're meaning, but you're explaining it terribly. Drugs and prostitution are the elast of our worries and banning them is nota sign of a lack of progress.

The republic is less that 100 years old. The US is older and many area are more religiously ruled than us, have harsher laws concerning soft drugs and prostitution in all forms is illegal.

Things don't happen over night.

Also, remember than the majority may not necessarilly agree with you, so forcing a minority belief on people is just as backward as some of the examples you gave.

thetonynator · 07-01-2011 01:57PM

RichieC wrote: »

Every crime legal? I dare you to get caught in holland with coke or any other class A, hell, get caught pissing into a canal, you'll have the **** kicked of you then locked up, the police there don't pull punches, I saw one guy paraded down the street hand cuffed to the arse of a police horse for acting the maggot drunk.

no, Prostitution and weed (not even actually legal) does not equal every crime being legal.

So all of our criminals in prison that are in excess of the number holland has are there because of wed and prostitution? No, our problems certainly wont be solved by that, i dont have the stats but i'm fairly sure than most of our prison population arent there from prostitution and weed.

JustAddWater · 07-01-2011 01:58PM

RockinRolla wrote: »

When we had the headshops - people marched up and down the streets and got them closed down. For what? Just so they could instill their values in the rest of society?

Were you living under a rock or something?

It wasn't for a bit of craic they closed these shops. The sh*te they sold was actually linked to deaths.

http://www.highlandradio.com/2010/02/12/donegal-woman-calls-for-headshop-ban-after-her-brothers-death/

http://www.braypeople.ie/premium/news/head-shop-link-to-death-2370085.html

And that's just Ireland, i'm sure you'll find similar stories in the UK news

RockinRolla wrote: »

Nobody forced those people into those establishments.

I would also suggest you read up a little on peer pressure

humanji · 07-01-2011 01:59PM

orourkeda wrote: »

You're pissed off at the lack of coke and hookers. I feel your pain.

You should become a mod!

RockinRolla · 07-01-2011 02:01PM

thetonynator wrote: »

*Ireland doesnt need even more people broke thanks to gambling and foreign companies taking all the gambling money with them back to wherever they came from. Thats not progress ffs!
*Most people in this country are in favour of the smoking ban as they dont smoke and dont have to inhale second hand smoke in every pub and restaurant and indoor place in the country.
*Prostitution isnt progress.
*The catholic church do not control the country, and haven't had any real influence in years. The influence in the constitution does remain, although it becomes less with every referendum.
*I dont know when you went to school, but sex education is quite good in schools now. Maybe it wasnt in the past, but isn't progress about changing in the future? We cant change whats already happened..
*Church and state are seperate.
*Euthanasia and drug policies are in line with the vast majority of european countries.
*Lobbyists usually represent a group of taxpayers.
*Laws on alcohol (bar one or two of them) are generally for the better . . later opening times wouldnt exactly benefit the country, and does it really matter if alcoholics cant get drink until half 12 one morning of the week or two days a year?

*and no economy can run without tax.

No! This is NOT in line with the principles of a free democratic society, sorry about you. Give the individual the choice to live and NEVER impose your values on anybody else!

pawrick wrote: »

Is there not a middle ground some where between drugs and hookers on every corner and "an aborted foetus injected with heroin lying in every back alley"? Seriously, talk about extreams!

Fact is no amount of ranting on internet forums will change anything - you want change you do something about it - vote for someone who represents your interests, if not happy with them, it's a democratic country put yourself forward.
Most people prefer the middle ground on issues and tend to avoid change unless they have to. In order for big changes to be made people need to be willing to do something rather then bicker and blame religion (a lot of us can vote now who grew up in a less religeous country). This applies to all points of views, we have too many internet warriors in Ireland.

As a moderatively conservative person there are a lot of things I agree with that others would not - but once it doesn't harm what I consider society or myself I generally don't care.

The people have no choice...wake up to the illusion of choice. There is no direct democracy. We can't petition in this country!

orourkeda · 07-01-2011 02:01PM

humanji wrote: »

You should become a mod!

Thanks but no thanks

Biggins · 07-01-2011 02:03PM

RockinRolla wrote: »

...It's unacceptable. Why can't we update outdated laws to progress.

Who do we have in power again? Who long does it take them to do anything - never mind do anything right!

RichieC · 07-01-2011 02:04PM

thetonynator wrote: »

So all of our criminals in prison that are in excess of the number holland has are there because of wed and prostitution? No, our problems certainly wont be solved by that, i dont have the stats but i'm fairly sure than most of our prison population arent there from prostitution and weed.

It's obviously not hurting them is what I'm saying, besides, weed and prostitution only put more work on the gardas plate, they could be chasing shop robbers with bags on their faces.

Grassroots_FF · 07-01-2011 02:07PM

RockinRolla wrote: »

No! This is NOT in line with the principles of a free democratic society, sorry about you. Give the individual the choice to live and NEVER impose your values on anybody else!

Having the right to breath smoke in someone elses face while they they have tea and a sandwich is not democracy despite what you say

RockinRolla · 07-01-2011 02:09PM

RichieC wrote: »

It's obviously not hurting them is what I'm saying, besides, weed and prostitution only put more work on the gardas plate, they could be chasing shop robbers with bags on their faces.

I agree that Gardai must be allocated to violent communities in a bid to tackle violent behaviour. Criminalising victimless crimes is against the principle of a free democratic society! Let the people live in whatever way they deem fit to live their lives so long as it does not infrindge on the rights of others!

Jesus Christ! Get these undemocratic evil bastards OUT of government and NEVER EVER VOTE FOR THEM AGAIN!

Grassroots_FF wrote: »

Having the right to breath smoke in someone elses face while they they have tea and a sandwich is not democracy despite what you say

A rule for a particular venue MUST be made by that venues owners! It must be made by the property owner to decide what behaviour is acceptable on their premises. Why can't you understand that?! Nobody forces you to go anywhere you dont want to go!

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 07-01-2011 02:11PM

Grassroots_FF wrote: »

Having the right to breath smoke in someone elses face while they they have tea and a sandwich is not democracy despite what you say

Are you saying people are having sex with prostitutes and smoking hash in teashops now? Ban teashops, I say! Dens of iniquuity!

Seriously. If it's done in public, you have a point. If it's done in private, you have no say in another adult's life. Sorry to break the news to you.

Grassroots_FF · 07-01-2011 02:11PM

RockinRolla wrote: »

I agree that Gardai must be allocated to violent communities in a bid to tackle violent behaviour. Criminalising victimless crimes is against the principle of a free democratic society! Let the people live in whatever way they deem fit to live their lives so long as it does not infrindge on the rights of others!

Jesus Christ! Get these undemocratic evil bastards OUT of government and NEVER EVER VOTE FOR THEM AGAIN!

A rule for a particular venue MUST be made by that venues owners! It must be made by the property owner to decide what behaviour is acceptable on their premises. Why can't you understand that?! Nobody forces you to go anywhere you dont want to go!

Tell us what a free democratic society is exactly and give us an example of where it exists?

superelliptic · 07-01-2011 02:12PM

Humans eh! wrote: »

Driving both underground doesn't get rid of either, but merely increases the danger to people involved. I think that regulation is a better way to monitor and control both rather than hysterical banning for personal moral or religious reasons. progress would be to take them out of the hands of the viscious scumbags who benefit from the "If I can't see it it's not there brigade" and their imposition of their personal ideas on us all.

Fair enough, but I think your looking at the problem the wrong way. I get that you see prostitutes as victims (and many of them are to some degree) but you cant help them in their situation by legalising their trade. If you want to help a prostitute, help them get out of prostitution and into care.

I think that Ireland is in a better position to combat drug abuse and prostitution that most countries, mainly because we are geographicaly seperate from mainland europe, and we have a small population. When it comes to drugs, there needs to be more Gardai involved in both detection and enforcement, and most importantly there needs to be a reform of the sentencing handed down by the courts. IMO if a drug importer is caught bringing in a lorry load of hash or coke, he should get life - 25 years. No exceptions. Same goes for anyone caught trafficking people into the country as part of the sex trade - send the hookers home, lock up the trafficker. Thats part of the reason why drugs et al continue to come into the country - because its widely known that we're a soft touch when it comes to punishment.

Grassroots_FF · 07-01-2011 02:12PM

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

Are you saying people are having sex with prostitutes and smoking hash in teashops now?

Well you wouldn't know with some of these newer "coffee" shops

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 07-01-2011 02:16PM

Grassroots_FF wrote: »

Well you wouldn't know with some of these newer "coffee" shops

Are you making seriosuly suggesting this here? Scared of something you think might be happening but isn't?

Also, FF and proud hasn't been around lately. Am I sensing a troll and a rereg in one go?

seamus · 07-01-2011 02:17PM

Grassroots_FF wrote: »

I'm suspicious of this liberal agenda to force their own values on every one else. And anyone who doesn't agree with them is dismissed as small minded and backwards:rolleyes:

I'm sick of the conservative agenda which currently pushes some people's private values onto everyone's choices. And anyone who suggests that people be allowed to make choices for themselves is dismissed as liberal and short-sighted :rolleyes:

Biggins · 07-01-2011 02:18PM

thetonynator wrote: »

* The catholic church do not control the country, and haven't had any real influence in years. The influence in the constitution does remain, although it becomes less with every referendum.
* I dont know when you went to school, but sex education is quite good in schools now. Maybe it wasnt in the past, but isn't progress about changing in the future? We cant change whats already happened..
* Church and state are separate.
* Lobbyists usually represent a group of taxpayers.

A lot of your points are good however the Catholic church in this country still has pulling power in this state. I mean that is obvious to this day - just look at the special deal they got away with concerning those that were abused in their care!

Generally sex education has improved however in church/religious based schools some backward teaching still persists.
I was contacted last year by a girl from a Loretto convent school who spoke about how the nuns there refuse (or to allow modern hired teachers) to teach about contraception, how not to get pregnant and how to avoid STD's.
Naturally they are following the edicts set out from Rome - and these edicts are allowed overrule the Irish state as regards what should be taught in schools - and they are allowed get away with it!

I firmly believe that church and state are still in bed with each other - only they are doing it more quietly and under the covers!

"Lobbyists usually represent a group of taxpayers."
...Or organisations such as the Vintners org' (and it's ilk), RGDATA, or other setup's that do lobbying on behalf of vested members that are in such bodies for the sake of eventual increased personal monetary gain.

RockinRolla · 07-01-2011 02:20PM

superelliptic wrote: »

Fair enough, but I think your looking at the problem the wrong way. I get that you see prostitutes as victims (and many of them are to some degree) but you cant help them in their situation by legalising their trade. If you want to help a prostitute, help them get out of prostitution and into care.

I think that Ireland is in a better position to combat drug abuse and prostitution that most countries, mainly because we are geographicaly seperate from mainland europe, and we have a small population. When it comes to drugs, there needs to be more Gardai involved in both detection and enforcement, and most importantly there needs to be a reform of the sentencing handed down by the courts. IMO if a drug importer is caught bringing in a lorry load of hash or coke, he should get life - 25 years. No exceptions. Same goes for anyone caught trafficking people into the country as part of the sex trade - send the hookers home, lock up the trafficker. Thats part of the reason why drugs et al continue to come into the country - because its widely known that we're a soft touch when it comes to punishment.

But your view is the problem, don't you see?

By keeping the trade underground you allow organised crime figures to control and import women for sex work! You CAN'T BEAT IT, SO PROTECT THEM! Regulate it! If a consenting adult wants to prostitute in exchange for money, that is their choice and no one elses! Why can't you understand that? If you don't accept that, you do not believe in a democratic society, its as simple as that. You believe in censorship and control!

By the use of language you used, it is obvious you speak in negative terms of prostitution. Why do you think this is a negative profession? We must protect these women! NOW!

07-01-2011 02:22PM

to OP:

BAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Trading women is illegal.

Smoking crack is illegal.

Crazy lefty is crazy.

I kinda like the lack of legality of coke & hookers, as do the majority of Irish citizens.

You're in a minority. Wah.

Tough sh*t. Deal with it.

thetonynator · 07-01-2011 02:23PM

RockinRolla wrote: »

No! This is NOT in line with the principles of a free democratic society, sorry about you. Give the individual the choice to live and NEVER impose your values on anybody else!!

Fantastic response, really making it worth peoples while to point out all the problems with your posts so you can respond with sh!te like this.

thetonynator · 07-01-2011 02:25PM

RockinRolla wrote: »

But your view is the problem, don't you see?

By keeping the trade underground you allow organised crime figures to control and import women for sex work! You CAN'T BEAT IT, SO PROTECT THEM! Regulate it! If a consenting adult wants to prostitute in exchange for money, that is their choice and no one elses! Why can't you understand that? If you don't accept that, you do not believe in a democratic society, its as simple as that. You believe in censorship and control!

By the use of language you used, it is obvious you speak in negative terms of prostitution. Why do you think this is a negative profession? We must protect these women! NOW!

Oh yeah, you really started this thread to protect the women. Apart from the fact that legalising prostitutuion will only mean human trafficking for the sex trade will be legal, we all know that you want to be able to pay to get your hole, cos you cant get it otherwise, as the zohan pointed out earlier.

Wompa1 · 07-01-2011 02:28PM

RockinRolla wrote: »

But your view is the problem, don't you see?

By keeping the trade underground you allow organised crime figures to control and import women for sex work! You CAN'T BEAT IT, SO PROTECT THEM! Regulate it! If a consenting adult wants to prostitute in exchange for money, that is their choice and no one elses! Why can't you understand that? If you don't accept that, you do not believe in a democratic society, its as simple as that. You believe in censorship and control!

By the use of language you used, it is obvious you speak in negative terms of prostitution. Why do you think this is a negative profession? We must protect these women! NOW!

It's legal in parts of Nevada and in Amsterdam just from a selfish point of view I'd rather not having a red light district visible in our towns because they make the place look like sh!t. I also don't think legalizing will protect them in the long run, if it is their choice to do it they are still in a position to hurt themselves and others by spreading diseases. Getting prostitutes help so that they don't need to do that for money is a better way to go surely?

Also it was said by another poster that prisons in Holland are too empty. I saw a documentary which portrayed that the biggest profiteers from pot in Holland are Turkish gangs who have their operation in Turkey...

If the idea is that the drug dealers are the criminals then the criminals aren't in Holland to be arrested.

seamus · 07-01-2011 02:29PM

superelliptic wrote: »

Fair enough, but I think your looking at the problem the wrong way. I get that you see prostitutes as victims (and many of them are to some degree) but you cant help them in their situation by legalising their trade. If you want to help a prostitute, help them get out of prostitution and into care.

But that too is seeing them as victims. There are plenty of women who choose prostitution as a legitimate way of making money. If you make it a safer profession to operate in (by legalising and licencing it), then those who got in out of desperation are both protected and offered a way out at the same time.

I think that Ireland is in a better position to combat drug abuse and prostitution that most countries, mainly because we are geographicaly seperate from mainland europe, and we have a small population. When it comes to drugs, there needs to be more Gardai involved in both detection and enforcement, and most importantly there needs to be a reform of the sentencing handed down by the courts.

Our main problem when it comes to the drugs trade is our massive amount of coastline. We simply don't have the resources to police it all. There is very little to stop someone landing a large boatload of stuff on some godforsaken beach out the west in the middle of the night and transporting it in legitimate trucks and vans.

In terms of overall strategy, I think we need to stop looking at targetting supply. If demand exists, a supply will always exist no matter how many dealers you catch and lock up, there will always be another scrote to take his place.

Drug users are largely insulated from the consequences of their crime. The Gerry Ryan's of this world don't link that coke they bought off their mate Fiachra with gang murders in Limerick.
If we stifle the demand, the supply dies. Start locking people up for small amounts of stuff. 5g of coke? 5 years in jail. The drug users only care what happens to them. When white-collar workers in offices start seeing colleagues and friends being banged up for small amounts of possession, they will very quickly realise that it could happen to them, and drop it. And when they drop it, the dealers have no-one to sell to, and their market collapses.

At present, their mate gets a caution, a large fine at worst and six weeks later they're laughing about it during another coke-fuelled house party.

You only have to look at the introduction of penalty points to see this in action. Before them, if you got caught you got a fine, you paid it and laughed about it with your mates. Then they came in and people realised, "Oh ****, I could actually lose my licence", and bam, slump in road deaths.

Het-Field · 07-01-2011 02:32PM

thetonynator wrote: »

*Ireland doesnt need even more people broke thanks to gambling and foreign companies taking all the gambling money with them back to wherever they came from. Thats not progress ffs!
*Most people in this country are in favour of the smoking ban as they dont smoke and dont have to inhale second hand smoke in every pub and restaurant and indoor place in the country.
*Prostitution isnt progress.
*The catholic church do not control the country, and haven't had any real influence in years. The influence in the constitution does remain, although it becomes less with every referendum.
*I dont know when you went to school, but sex education is quite good in schools now. Maybe it wasnt in the past, but isn't progress about changing in the future? We cant change whats already happened..
*Church and state are seperate.
*Euthanasia and drug policies are in line with the vast majority of european countries.
*Lobbyists usually represent a group of taxpayers.
*Laws on alcohol (bar one or two of them) are generally for the better . . later opening times wouldnt exactly benefit the country, and does it really matter if alcoholics cant get drink until half 12 one morning of the week or two days a year?

*and no economy can run without tax.

1.Prostitiution is not progress. I believe it is a catalyst for marital breakdown, increased poverty However, by offering legal avenues, and regulating the trade, it would become safer for all those who choose to engage in it. In the Netherland, those who work in the legal sex trade are expected to be registered with their local Chamber of Commerce, and are expected to comply with mandatory STI testing and health checks. Bulidings offering these services must be up to code, and comply with all relevant health and safety legislation. It is beyond doubt that state regulation of a trade which simply wont go away is probably the better option. This would all benefit the fight against human trafficking as the state would be able to investigate those who wish engage in the trade, their anticedents and their reasons for engaging in the trade. It is the illegal trade which would have to stamped on.

2.Church and State are not separate. The nexus remains in the constitution, and that is enough. Further, many public bodies still bear the names of religious orders, which a Catholic religious ethos still prevails in many state run institutions such as schools.

3.Our laws on alcohol are not "for the better". That is complete and utter rubbish, which displays your removal from reality. In most European Countries pubs and clubs are given discretion to close at whatever time they see fit. In Ireland we prefer to restrict opening hours in a legislative manner. This ensures that at one time the majority of night-club attendees will pour out onto the street. This will be in the wake of the call of "last orders", where many punters will reverse frontload their drink, and fall from a drunken stupour, to paraletic. If you look at European Streets after a night out, they are less covered in puke and piss. I have only seen one fight on my travels in Europe. This would be the opposite to Ireland which is a bastion of enforced drunkeness. We are then expected to wait for ages for a taxi as all and sundry wait for one at the one time, rather then staggering it.

By giving discretion to pubs and nightclubs as to when they wish to close, it allows punters drink responsibly (and wont encourage frontloading), it reduces pressure on taxies, it staggers the number of punters who exit onto Irish streets at the one time, and it will reduce a myriad of pressures related to the night out..

4) I would suggest you look at the statistics of increased usage in the link. It startled me. Im not crazy about drug legalisation, and I hav never tried a single narcotic. However, I am open to hearing arguments, and for the sake of argument I would refer you to my arguments in relation to prostitution, and I suggest you read the link.

http://www.economist.com/node/14309861?story_id=14309861

5)Your stance on gambling is conservative. It suggests that you are anxious for one group of people to oversee how another spends their money and their time. Is that something we want to see ? Should the state prevent responsible gamblers in the name of those who are naturally disposed to addictive personaility ?

RockinRolla · 07-01-2011 02:32PM

Wompa1 wrote: »

It's legal in parts of Nevada and in Amsterdam just from a selfish point of view I'd rather not having a red light district visible in our towns because they make the place look like sh!t. I also don't think legalizing will protect them in the long run, if it is their choice to do it they are still in a position to hurt themselves and others by spreading diseases. Getting prostitutes help so that they don't need to do that for money is a better way to go surely?

Also it was said by another poster that prisons in Holland are too empty. I saw a documentary which portrayed that the biggest profiteers from pot in Holland are Turkish gangs who have their operation in Turkey...

If the idea is that the drug dealers are the criminals then the criminals aren't in Holland to be arrested.

No, you're wrong.

If it is regulated, prostitutes will be given regular and constant medical examinations to prevent the threat of sexually transmitted diseases. As things stand, they don't!

Now we are beginning to see a pattern....going by this thread, the problem with this country is bare face ignorance. Far too many uneducated opinions are given..

RichieC · 07-01-2011 02:36PM

Het-Field wrote: »

2.Church and State are not separate. The nexus remains in the constitution, and that is enough. Further, many public bodies still bear the names of religious orders, which a Catholic religious ethos still prevails in many state run institutions such as schools.

This needs to go.

Grassroots_FF · 07-01-2011 02:37PM

OP you talk about democracy but the majority of Irish people support the smoking ban. They don't want their clothes to smell or their lungs to suffer because they want to meet a few friends for a drink. How is getting rid of this smoking ban democratic and free exactly? You're full of nonsense. Just because someone owns a property doesn't mean they can break state laws on said property. Should rape be legal if it takes place on the private property of the rapist?

freyners · 07-01-2011 02:38PM

Grassroots_FF wrote: »

You've got a funny idea about what progress is. Hookers on every corner and lads stoned out of their minds isn't what Irish people want. People like you won't be happy until there's an aborted foetus injected with heroin lying in every back alley.

Typical liberal rubbish.

WOW..what fantastic reasoning there buddy..user name needs no explanation after that

and since when do you represent the views of the irish people????

fact is..some people would like nothing more than to be stoned out of there heads and some people do have sex with prostitutes...quite a significant portion of society too for the former i would suspect:p

You asked the question what is a true democratic society earlier..as far as i can reason it is where people are free to make choices of what activity they wish to take part or avoid taking part in..so if a person wants to smoke weed/have sex with a hooker/choose whether they wish to have an abortion/euthanasia/what age they feel ready to have sex(just listing topics i can remember came up recently) they can make that choice themselves..rather than have one part of society dictating what they can or cant do.

Why Is Ireland So Afraid Of Progress?

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