Second Chance being tuned

Nuri Sahin · 07-01-2011 12:15AM #1

The choice of all MLG Pros. Well it looks like it's being tuned somewhat according to Vahn, head designer for Treyarch.

I'll post what Vahn said underneath as well as the forum link(41 pages in less than a day since Vahn's OP) -

Hello-

The topic of 2nd chance is too large to stuff in a general game-play thread. So here we go. This thread will only be open about 48 hours so get involved while it lasts.

I've looked into this as requested. Yes. The game has 0.5 seconds of invulnerability while falling. It's intentional. It's been like this forever. It was 0.5 in World at War. It also appears to have been 0.5 in Modern Warfare 2. I am not 100% positive. I think it was 0.8 in Modern Warfare 1/ Call of Duty 4. At least in the early days. It may have been patched.

2nd Chance has this invulnerability because if it did not have it, you would never fall and make it into 2nd chance. You would never get Last Stand/Final Stand/2nd Chance (these 3 things are all the same core mechanic with different features).

This mechanic frustrates some players. Removal or further reduction of the invulnerability would all but wipe the perk off the planet. I'm sure many people on these forums would be okay with that. We don't want to remove the Perk entirely. However, we are committed to working with people to tune it.

Ok. Know right this second any "Just remove the perk" replies are going to be ignored and get you blacklisted. I like interacting with the people who are engaging in civil dialog. If you like to nerd rage, scream, yell, or bounce out profanities be prepared to never discuss the game with a developer because that's all that will get you.

This said .... let's talk about what we are willing to do and get some polite and constructive feedback:

Some of this perk is handled in script. For example: a headshot means No 2nd Chance. Adding shotguns to that list is trivial and low risk. Something we would be willing to consider.

Some of this perk is handled in code. That automatically makes it more dangerous and risky. Any mistakes or desire to back out the changes would mean we need to wait for the next TU. It could be up to 6-8 weeks between TUs, so we just don't like making code changes for gameplay reasons.

We already test for certain types of damage (we call it MOD or means of death). This is why you can still knife someone "falling" and kill them. We would consider testing for other means of death such as fire, impact, explosive, impact, and possibly even sniper rifles.

In a sick way, 2nd chance is insurance against one hit kill weapons. It also rewards teamwork. This is partially why we are not prepared to flat out allow snipers to drop 2nd Chance users. As a sniper you have precision as your advantage so you can go for a headshot.

As a shotgun user, precision is not what you have. Headshots with shotguns is the very definition of chance and randomization. Shotguns are generally disadvantages over many other weapons except at extreme close ranges.

Treyarch COD games have usually had some type of "medic" sub-class, mechanic, or feature. We like that. We think the dynamic is interesting and can be rewarding. The intention of many perks is to create those dynamics. It's not to frustrate you for that one in a million ballistic knife shot where you ended up hitting him in the 0.5 seconds he was invulnerable. However, it's a "perk." Look up what perk means. It needs to offer something.

In summary:

-We are considering allowing shotgun users who do sufficient damage to a 2nd Chance user to put him out of his misery straight away

-- We would consider this because their is good precendt for it. Their are plenty of cases where you won't ever go into 2nd chance. Headshots and using objectives are good examples.

-We are considering allowing more items to be exempt from the "invulnerability frames."

-We are NOT going to remove the perk or flat out remove the "invulnerability."

-We are (still) considering other changes we listed in the gameplay thread (which was written before this post) including changing the revive time, making it so you can only be revived once, and perhaps changing who gets kill vs assist credit.

Discuss. Politely.

David 'Vahn' Vonderhaar

http://www.callofduty.com/board/viewtopic.php?f=70&t=387937

_____

IMHO, if they aren't going to remove the perk then all I want to see is a longer time frame from the point of dying and going into second chance to being able to fire. These people are so used to using that perk, the pistol is almost like a full auto rifle as soon as they drop. It's especially bad when there is another enemy near by or someone steals your kill.

The player who puts the enemy into second chance should get the kill I feel.

While saying all that, besides when up against multiple enemies, I deal with second chance users fairly easily as I usually follow my gun downwards more often than not.

krudler · 07-01-2011 12:37AM

I just cant understand why they dont remove it, its only point is to piss people off, the people who wind up in 2nd chance usually either kill themselves or die a second later anyway, you rarely ever see people get revived, i certainly never revive my teammates in it, **** that why should i risk getting killed cos they're using a sh1tty perk?

on matches where the majority of the other team are using it its fcuking infuriating, you see 3 guys, you might get a triple kill spray, but no, the first one is in 2nd chance by the time you're shooting at the 2nd guy and then you're dead. Its a baffling perk, always has been, it wasnt so bad as a deathstreak, you had to die 4 times to wind up in it and it seemed much easier to kill people in it than it does now.

tldr: fcuk 2nd chance users

krudler · 07-01-2011 12:59AM

141_Oscar_Mike wrote: »

Its too freely available. To many players use it. Put some ridiculous recoil on it.

or all you have is 2-3 bullets in the gun

Jet Black · 07-01-2011 01:08AM

treyarch wrote:

perhaps changing who gets kill vs assist credit

This esp.

Thought they weren't going to even mention it. They wait until the last line, so i'm not hopeful.

I also didn't know you could go down more that once that needs to be taken out. Once is more than enough.

krudler · 07-01-2011 01:15AM

Jet Black wrote: »

This esp.

Thought they weren't going to even mention it. They wait until the last line, so i'm not hopeful.

I also didn't know you could go down more that once that needs to be taken out. Once is more than enough.

or it only works if you have a negative kdr, i dont get why people who are going 10-1 are allowed to have it, either you can only use it 2-3 times per match or it only works if you're doing seriously sh1t.

still wont use it either way, gowl of a perk

Yakult · 07-01-2011 01:17AM

Would love to see it binned tbh. The amount of people using it is rediculous.

Btw, is it like MW2 where it became a deathstreak or it is for everytime you get killed fullstop?

Magill · 07-01-2011 01:36AM

The one thing i dont understand is... why the **** dont they just listen to the community before they released the game, its too late to remove the perk. They knew that it was probably one of the most hated perks in the cod series well before they released the game. I can live with every other perk, **** i'd even take commando over this bull**** perk.

Like they've said, they really need to up the revive time, its like half a ****ing second, it takes longer to kill someone than to revive. They should also add a dazed effect while they're in it... and decrease the time it takes for the ***** to die... i've seen people crawl half way cross the map in second chance... they're like little ****ing crawlers.

krudler · 07-01-2011 01:41AM

Magill wrote: »

The one thing i dont understand is... why the **** dont they just listen to the community before they released the game, its too late to remove the perk. They knew that it was probably one of the most hated perks in the cod series well before they released the game. I can live with every other perk, **** i'd even take commando over this bull**** perk.

Like they've said, they really need to up the revive time, its like half a ****ing second, it takes longer to kill someone than to revive. They should also add a dazed effect while they're in it... and decrease the time it takes for the ***** to die... i've seen people crawl half way cross the map in second chance... they're like little ****ing crawlers.

Exactly, they're changing all these littles things that 99% of people dont notice or care about, and they patched the hardline pro being able to change any care drop package thing, but THIS they leave in, its a gamewrecker and they know it, the amount of people pissed off about it being in there is way more than the amount of people that use it id say, get rid of it.

They probably dont want to come across like they will let the community dictate what shouldnt and shouldnt be in the game, but why not, Blizzard do it.

Headshot · 07-01-2011 01:48AM

****ing last stand pussy (its my catch phrase now

)

I laugh at the "This is partially why we are not prepared to flat out allow snipers to drop 2nd Chance users. As a sniper you have precision as your advantage so you can go for a headshot." he hasnt played the game, so many ****ing hitmarkers and its ridiculous that snipping doesnt finish off last stand ***** in one shot. How the hell can i kill one when im out of secondary gun bullets and flash and Semtex etc

im a sitting duck

Snake Plisken · 07-01-2011 01:54AM

yeah I'll take you down Headshot

I use it and have no problems with others using it its easy enough to finish them off and I very rarely get killed by them, I support what they are proposing above with the shotguns, so it'll be interesting to see how they implement it.

krudler · 07-01-2011 02:02AM

In a sick way, 2nd chance is insurance against one hit kill weapons.

Do they even exist in Black Ops?

Thats ridiculous, I was wondering why I had to shoot a guy a few times from the tower on Array the other night when he was in second chance, i just thought it was the sh1tty hit detection again.

Headshot · 07-01-2011 02:03AM

so you use last stand?

Your lucky you dont play with me because I ****ing teabag you till the cows come home

hightower1 · 07-01-2011 02:14AM

Magill wrote: »

The one thing i dont understand is... why the **** dont they just listen to the community before they released the game, its too late to remove the perk.

Simply its because its not all their problem, sure it was a window of opportunity to be abused but it THE COMMUNITY who abuse it. MLC in MW2 was a collection of bad gameplay decisions yes but it was the f**king tools who decided to pair all these up in one class that actually made it an issue.

Honestly would ye (I say ye cause I dont play blops) be as pissed with the perk if it wasnt nearly as widespread? In fact most things in the game would be irritating if everyone started using them. eg ghost... if all the people using this perk were overnight migrated to use ghost it would piss everyone off too.

Sure the game designers should try to anticipate what the idiots of the world will try and take advantage of but its impossible remove everything that COULD be taken advantage of.

The key is a dynamic solution based on two parts..

1. After release tweeking of things that are being exploited like above

2. An active role in combating things like this eg. responding to the community, admitting that yes a certain perk is being abused by sheer numbers so while x amount of people world wide use it we will limit its use per game, when the amount of people using it drops we will default it back.

Magill · 07-01-2011 02:30AM

hightower1 wrote: »

Simply its because its not all their problem, sure it was a window of opportunity to be abused but it THE COMMUNITY who abuse it. MLC in MW2 was a collection of bad gameplay decisions yes but it was the f**king tools who decided to pair all these up in one class that actually made it an issue.

Honestly would ye (I say ye cause I dont play blops) be as pissed with the perk if it wasnt nearly as widespread? In fact most things in the game would be irritating if everyone started using them. eg ghost... if all the people using this perk were overnight migrated to use ghost it would piss everyone off too.

Sure the game designers should try to anticipate what the idiots of the world will try and take advantage of but its impossible remove everything that COULD be taken advantage of.

The key is a dynamic solution based on two parts..

1. After release tweeking of things that are being exploited like above

2. An active role in combating things like this eg. responding to the community, admitting that yes a certain perk is being abused by sheer numbers so while x amount of people world wide use it we will limit its use per game, when the amount of people using it drops we will default it back.

Yes, i hate the perk. Besides dangerclose it was the one perk that really pissed me off big time in MW2, and you couldn't even revive in it, i bitched about it a few times on here aswel. And in MW2 the perk wasn't even used that much because it had to compete with commando and a very good ninja (Maybe sitrep aswel ?). They should put it in the same perk slot as either ghost or slight of hand imo.

Oh and about the sniper thing, that made me laugh aswel...who the **** aims for hte head in this game ? Unless they're standing still for you, anyone that actively aims for headshots... is playing this game wrong !! At least on consoles, getting a headshot is almost entirely luck because of how much latency there is.

hightower1 · 07-01-2011 02:35AM

Magill wrote: »

Yes, i hate the perk. Besides dangerclose it was the one perk that really pissed me off big time in MW2, and you couldn't even revive in it, i bitched about it a few times on here aswel. And in MW2 the perk wasn't even used that much because it had to compete with commando and a very good ninja (Maybe sitrep aswel ?). They should put it in the same perk slot as either ghost or slight of hand imo.

That'd be an idea alright.
Mainly I think no matter what the perk or the gun / attachment as soon as everyone starts using it it will become annoying and need attention then from an active "shaping" team.

I mean if everyone in MW2 used scrambler at once how irritating would that be! :eek: but when only a few use it its fine and just another perk.

Magill · 07-01-2011 02:40AM

hightower1 wrote: »

That'd be an idea alright.
Mainly I think no matter what the perk or the gun / attachment as soon as everyone starts using it it will become annoying and need attention then from an active "shaping" team.

I mean if everyone in MW2 used scrambler at once how irritating would that be! :eek: but when only a few use it its fine and just another perk.

yeah but sure everyone uses slight of hand, doesnt bother me, ghost doesnt bother me a fraction of what second chance does. Even commando never really bothered me in MW2. Obviously the more people using it the more noticable it is tho but i wouldnt really consider every perk being like that.

Really ****s up my montage clips

Robby91 · 07-01-2011 03:09AM

Wow... never expected there would be so much anger over Second Chance - I've never really had a major issue with it myself. It's irritating when someone comes along and robs the kill, but I don't think that a Second Chance user poses a great threat unless they have put the Python or CZ75 in their loadout.

*prepares to get flamed*

you rarely ever see people get revived, i certainly never revive my teammates in it, **** that why should i risk getting killed cos they're using a sh1tty perk?

Even if they made the effort to shuffle out of the line of fire? Personally, I try and help them up (if it's not a huge risk), just to try and stop the enemy team getting the extra 100 points (I typically play TDM so... I won't speak for other game modes), or to delay the onset of a killstreak.

Splinter · 07-01-2011 09:47AM

i love second chance for the reason of hearing Headshot complain about it over the mic. it is a bit ridiculous though, i agree with the disorientation though, hell, you get shot a few times and hit the deck and instantly you are fine and have the handgun out? cmon now...

Idealy i'd like to see it changed to a deathstreak again where it at least makes sense! As it stands, the perk itself is too quick to react and tbh its at the stage where i can't get for doubles or triple sprays because i get paranoid that the first fella isn't dead yet!

baz909 · 07-01-2011 09:52AM

about time they sort out "second chance"

they should also appear on the mini-map when their in 2nd chance mode...

krudler · 07-01-2011 11:29AM

hightower1 wrote: »

That'd be an idea alright.
Mainly I think no matter what the perk or the gun / attachment as soon as everyone starts using it it will become annoying and need attention then from an active "shaping" team.

I mean if everyone in MW2 used scrambler at once how irritating would that be! :eek: but when only a few use it its fine and just another perk.

I loved scrambler users, they may as well have had a siren on their head announcing their whereabouts, easy kills

jimbling · 07-01-2011 12:07PM

At least they're looking at it.

So, they're not going to remove it. Clearly stated. Then lets hope they make the changes that bring it down to the level of a regular perk.

I think it would be a somewhat reasonable perk if they did make a few small changes.

1) I like the idea of moving it to perk slot one or two. Makes it a harder choice to put it on and would certainly see less people using it. This probably wont happen though.

2) Shottys... no way someone should someone go into second chance against a shotgun. It's just not fair.

3) If they change who gets the kill/assist then it wont be anywhere near as annoying. It's the fairest thing to do, but I'm not sure I can see them going through with it.

4) If they don't do 1 to get less people using it, then they need to do something else. Like making them a bit disorientated, or not able to shoot immediately, or no reload of weapon etc etc....
The perk in itself wouldn't be that big a deal if so many people weren't using it. (And 3 was put in place... so as long as he's not revived, you still get the kill).

hightower1 wrote: »

if all the people using this perk were overnight migrated to use ghost it would piss everyone off too.

:eek: don't frighten me. I hate when even one/two are using ghost.... if the whole team were I'd be screwed. Hardline pro and spyplane is my gameplan for 90% of my games.

krudler · 07-01-2011 12:36PM

ghost doesnt bother me so much, you call in a spy plane and see 3 dots instead of 6, big deal, its a challenge. every perk and killstreak SHOULD have a counter, so i've no problem with ghost so much. but what 2nd chance a counter to? bullets?

jimbling · 07-01-2011 12:47PM

krudler wrote: »

ghost doesnt bother me so much, you call in a spy plane and see 3 dots instead of 6, big deal, its a challenge. every perk and killstreak SHOULD have a counter, so i've no problem with ghost so much. but what 2nd chance a counter to? bullets?

don't get me wrong, I think it's a ridiculous perk. But basically, they've said they're not going to get rid of it. So best we can hope for is for them to make it less attractive for people to use, and less annoying for people to play against. I think those options above will go a long way to doing that.

Splinter · 07-01-2011 12:47PM

death? :pac:

mcgovern · 07-01-2011 01:25PM

Just out of curiosity, is everyone here who is complaining about it, playing on PS3? Because I've no major problem with it, and not heard too many people complain about it. I don't use it, and yes its annoying when you kill is stolen or your hit from halfway across the map by someone in last stand, but they are easy to kill.
Also, everyone uses sleight of hand? Not that I've seen...

Magill · 07-01-2011 01:48PM

mcgovern wrote: »

Just out of curiosity, is everyone here who is complaining about it, playing on PS3? Because I've no major problem with it, and not heard too many people complain about it. I don't use it, and yes its annoying when you kill is stolen or your hit from halfway across the map by someone in last stand, but they are easy to kill.
Also, everyone uses sleight of hand? Not that I've seen...

Its a cross the board complaint. The problem with last stand isnt that they are hard to kill or that they kill you. Its how it can **** you up in other ways. Example, you get the jump on 2 guys, you shoot the first guy, but he goes into last stand theres, theres a .5 second period were you can't kill the guy so by the time you're finally able to shoot him the other guy gets his sh!t together and f*cks you up.

Another example, you shoot a guy from distance, he falls into second chance and behind cover... alot of the time they'll either get revived or someone else will get the kill because you cant finish him off. Another problem that i've noticed the last few days... i've put people into second chance but they've killed me at the same time, with their primary ? How does that work ????

krudler · 07-01-2011 01:54PM

Was it Ade who absolutely polluted a guy with bullets in 2nd chance the other night on Summit? he was standing over this guy just emptying bullets into him was really funny we were like "i think hes dead"

Splinter · 07-01-2011 01:56PM

haha so many wrong things there Krud. it was Ade on Firing range destroying the guy with an M60. near wet myself laughing at that one

krudler · 07-01-2011 02:02PM

Splinter wrote: »

haha so many wrong things there Krud. it was Ade on Firing range destroying the guy with an M60. near wet myself laughing at that one

was it firing range? was sure it was summit, ah well, was still funny though, the m60 with extended mags is a beastly thing altogether, no reload as you dont get spare bullets, 200 in the mag, soooo much fun just letting rip with it, its basically a mobile mounted turret

Xinkai · 07-01-2011 02:12PM

I didn't think it was that bad before reading this >_>

Just another perk to me lol. That said I don't use it

..... Put your knives away please?

yimrsg · 07-01-2011 02:15PM

Whoever downs the player, gets the kill, whoever finishes them off gets the assist or it's the same player they get another kill. Reward the attacking play.

I'd think having the 2nd chancer have a reduced vision/accuracy would also work but to implement it now is to my mind impossible. Maybe have it so there is no invincibilty just a set amount of damage they receive with the perk. Though that could be worse, pity failarch never playtested this game thouroughly. Also reduce the length of time you can be revived for the pro perk.

It's a problem with the xbox as well as there will be people with it. From talking to others on here, we've adopted shooting at enemies feet so that we don't have to worry about dropping our aim. I've decided long ago, that unless I have to go past a downed teammate he won't get revived. It's not me being stupid or selfish, it's for the team's benefit.

Think of it this way, whilst I am trying to get to him and revive him (negating the enemy kill), I could be missing the chance of 2 or more kills using the chancer as bait. He sacrificed himself for the team. If I'm close by him, then chances are I'll get shoot at too, so having another person to shoot at for the enemy is more advantageous.

Also chancers are great for killing with tactical grenades.

Second Chance being tuned

Comments