Poisoning/Shooting of Birds of Prey - Please read guidelines in first post

E39MSport · 22-12-2010 08:10PM

I honestly cannot see a future in Ireland for these beauties. As long as there are even a handful of bad apples out there then they don't stand a chance. Legislation obviously hasn't helped. Would be nice to have a conviction though and see how that affects things. Sadly though I reckon that this will be policed like the roads are(nt).

magicbastarder · 22-12-2010 08:27PM

this article mentions an eagle shot in kerry - i suspect it's the same one as mentioned in the article above, but the article above does not give a time for when it was shot, so it's hard to tell if it's reporting it as a recent event.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2010/0504/1224269640141.html

Birdnuts · 22-12-2010 09:16PM

Sadly not suprised by this - the gombeen attitude of some sheep farmers in Kerry was well illustrated in the recent RTE documentry on this issue. The fact that alot of these types are in receipt of hefty state handouts makes it all the more sickening and damages the reputation of Irish Farming and the many decent farmers who have done great work through REPS for wildlife and the rural environment. :mad:

PS: If we thought last lambing season would be bad for the eagles this one coming up could well be even more horrific given the casualty rate so early in the cycle:( - losing a female too is extra damaging to the project given the large gender imbalance of eagles released this year

LostCovey · 22-12-2010 10:28PM

magicbastarder wrote: »

this article mentions an eagle shot in kerry - i suspect it's the same one as mentioned in the article above, but the article above does not give a time for when it was shot, so it's hard to tell if it's reporting it as a recent event.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2010/0504/1224269640141.html

One of the Kerry Sea Eagles was shot in Lough Neagh in Northern Ireland about this time last year.

LostCovey

Ptarmigan · 26-12-2010 02:38PM

Feargal as Luimneach wrote: »

The noose is tightening around the Eagles. Not only are they being attacked by people poisoning them, they are also being shot. The criminal who poisoned the eagle might not have intended the poison for foxes or crows (still illegal however). But the shooter who shot the sea eagle knew full what they were doing and that makes it more disturbing:mad::mad::mad:

Reminds of the time, back in the early 70s when someone shot a Snowy Owl down on the Wexford Slobs!
He actually claimed that he thought it was a Goose, demonstrating of course that he not only had bad eyesight, but also poor fieldcraft skills, so shouldn't have been allowed to go out shooting at all! :mad:

blackstairsboy · 27-12-2010 01:05AM

I am a keen shooter and also an avid fan of birds of prey. I cannot believe that a person could shoot an eagle. It must be devastating for those who put a lot of hard work into their conservation. I must say that I am very pleased to see that no one has gone and branded all shooters as the bad guys here. Thankfully you realize that any eagles that are found shot are shot by inconsiderate half wits who definitely do not have the support or backing of the greater shooting/hunting community. It is a great pity and I am saddened to hear about the poisonings and shootings.:(

Ptarmigan · 27-12-2010 11:25AM

blackstairsboy wrote: »

I am a keen shooter and also an avid fan of birds of prey. I cannot believe that a person could shoot an eagle. It must be devastating for those who put a lot of hard work into their conservation. I must say that I am very pleased to see that no one has gone and branded all shooters as the bad guys here. Thankfully you realize that any eagles that are found shot are shot by inconsiderate half wits who definitely do not have the support or backing of the greater shooting/hunting community. It is a great pity and I am saddened to hear about the poisonings and shootings.:(

I have been an avid Birdwatcher for over 50 years now, but I also worked as a Gamekeeper for a number of years, both in Ireland & Scotland & know, as well as you do, that people don't shoot these birds by accident! :mad:

As you say, there are responsible hunters & there are totally irresponsible eejits walking around playing Macho Man, in their fancy gear from the Army/Navy stores, giving everyone a bad name!

At the start of each Pheasant shoot, we always asked the guns not to shoot any of our holding birds, Bantams, Guinea Fowl. Now of course, nobody above the age of 3 could ever mistake a Bantam or Guinea Hen for a Pheasant, but of course we were always wasting our breath, cause they were always shot!

Once a bloke gets a gun in his hands, so many of them would go a little crazy, even shooting Pheasants on the ground, as they walked out between the waiting guns ... just to bring their numbers up for the day. Of course we also had Beaters being peppered by shot from eejits who should never have been allowed out. :mad:

Unfortunately, the sad fact is there are without doubt far, far too many people out there who should NOT have a gun!

Cheers
Dick

blackstairsboy · 27-12-2010 06:28PM

Ptarmigan wrote: »

I have been an avid Birdwatcher for over 50 years now, but I also worked as a Gamekeeper for a number of years, both in Ireland & Scotland & know, as well as you do, that people don't shoot these birds by accident! :mad:

As you say, there are responsible hunters & there are totally irresponsible eejits walking around playing Macho Man, in their fancy gear from the Army/Navy stores, giving everyone a bad name!

At the start of each Pheasant shoot, we always asked the guns not to shoot any of our holding birds, Bantams, Guinea Fowl. Now of course, nobody above the age of 3 could ever mistake a Bantam or Guinea Hen for a Pheasant, but of course we were always wasting our breath, cause they were always shot!

Once a bloke gets a gun in his hands, so many of them would go a little craz, even shooting Pheasants on the ground, as they walked out between the waiting guns ... just to bring their numbers up for the day. Of course we also had Beaters being peppered by shot from eejits who should never have been allowed out. :mad:

Unfortunately, the sad fact is there are without doubt far, far too many people out there who should NOT have a gun!

Cheers
Dick

I could not agree more with you I could think of three or four people I know who should not be allowed to have guns. I know these people to shoot from cars at pheasants on the ground in fields adjacent to the road and also at pheasants on the road. I know of one pair who shoot rabbits on a road with a 22 rifle out of the sunroof while driving along the road in the morning. These are the sort of people who will shoot the eagles. They are ignorant to the ways of the countryside and will claim that these birds will take all of the pheasants. The same person will not operate a larsen trap or do a bit of vermin control which will easily compensate for the birds the eagles may take.
I have no problems with birds of prey I love watching them on a summers evening, owls especially. I was thanking the birdwatching community for not tarring the whole shooting community with the one brush. They understand that any birds found shot are shot by these idiots. I appreciate the work the organisations are doing to reintroduce and manage the populations of these birds in this country.

Mothman · 27-12-2010 09:43PM

This thread was not created to discuss shooting or shooting of Birds of Prey. I will discuss with my fellow mods, but at moment I favour amending guidelines as suggested by a reported post to include shooting of BoP under a general title of Persecution of Birds of Prey. This forum does not cover more general discussion of shooting. If we do continue with this thead specific to poisoning then I'll move the recent posts about shooting of BoP to a new thread.

blackstairsboy · 27-12-2010 10:52PM

Apologies, I thought the thread was just about the general persecution of birds of prey and was not specific to just poisonings. I am away from my comfort zone of the shooting forum.;)

steddyeddy · 06-01-2011 03:26AM

Guys does anyone know what is being done about this apart from people repeating this is not acceptable on the news?

LostCovey · 06-01-2011 10:29AM

steddyeddy wrote: »

Guys does anyone know what is being done about this apart from people repeating this is not acceptable on the news?

What else can be done about it steddyeddy?

Giving it lots of coverage in public forums, and dealing with all the myths and nonsense propagated by people who lay poison is the best chance of changing perceptions.

It is illegal to poison a bird of prey in Ireland but almost impossible to prosecute and prove. First you have to find the dead bird, find what it died of, find where it got it, who put it there, and then go back and ensure you have forensic proof beyond reasonable doubt for every link of this chain.

Your implied criticism suggests that something else should be done.

What have you in mind?

LostCovey

steddyeddy · 06-01-2011 12:32PM

LostCovey wrote: »

What else can be done about it steddyeddy?

Giving it lots of coverage in public forums, and dealing with all the myths and nonsense propagated by people who lay poison is the best chance of changing perceptions.

It is illegal to poison a bird of prey in Ireland but almost impossible to prosecute and prove. First you have to find the dead bird, find what it died of, find where it got it, who put it there, and then go back and ensure you have forensic proof beyond reasonable doubt for every link of this chain.

Your implied criticism suggests that something else should be done.

What have you in mind?

LostCovey

Well I worked in american conservation and I cant understand why people are getting away with this, is there not a law here that says killing these birds is illegal. Surely they could at least find out who is buying the strychnine and other poisons by checking sales records? They could then use that information to narrow down their search. As far as I know this rudimentary step is not being done.

magicbastarder · 06-01-2011 12:39PM

it's not strychnine being used, it's mainly chloralose afaik, and i don't know if there's a record kept of who buys it; and it's such a widely used poison that it'd be impossible to trace poison found in a bird back to the source.
i can go over to woodies and buy chloralose easily; it's a general rodenticide.

homerhop · 06-01-2011 12:41PM

It is illegal here to poison them, and the sale of strychnine has been illegal for quiet some years, so how do you trace who has it?

steddyeddy · 06-01-2011 12:45PM

magicbastarder wrote: »

it's not strychnine being used, it's mainly chloralose afaik, and i don't know if there's a record kept of who buys it; and it's such a widely used poison that it'd be impossible to trace poison found in a bird back to the source.
i can go over to woodies and buy chloralose easily; it's a general rodenticide.

ah my mistake I thought there was at least one case of strychnine poisoning.

Birdnuts · 06-01-2011 08:28PM

Speaking to someone close to the projects there is now the potential to connect illegally poisoned livestock and game carcasses to culpable landowners. Work at Edinborough Uni has resulted in a new process that can analyse DNA from a suspect carcass and compare it with the DNA from surrounding vegitation on a farm/estate. This process will be able to show that that the dead sheep or whatever spent its life in that area giving a direct link to the landowner in question. It will then be up to him/her to explain 1) Why the allowed an unburied carcass on their land?? and 2) how it came to be used for illegal purposes??. Not the whole anwer to the problem but certainly a usefull extra tool that increases the likelyhood of a succesfull conviction.:)

LostCovey · 06-01-2011 11:28PM

Birdnuts wrote: »

Speaking to someone close to the projects there is now the potential to connect illegally poisoned livestock and game carcasses to culpable landowners. Work at Edinborough Uni has resulted in a new process that can analyse DNA from a suspect carcass and compare it with the DNA from surrounding vegitation on a farm/estate. This process will be able to show that that the dead sheep or whatever spent its life in that area giving a direct link to the landowner in question. It will then be up to him/her to explain 1) Why the allowed an unburied carcass on their land?? and 2) how it came to be used for illegal purposes??. Not the whole anwer to the problem but certainly a usefull extra tool that increases the likelyhood of a succesfull conviction.:)

Well I think that technology may be based upon stable isotopes rather than DNA, but even so it won't ever convict anyone. Unfortunately.

Say if one of my lambs dies tonight, you take it out of the field before I find it, poison it and put it in Feargal's field.

A crime-fighting approach won't work in my opinion.

LC

LostCovey · 06-01-2011 11:31PM

steddyeddy wrote: »

Well I worked in american conservation and I cant understand why people are getting away with this, is there not a law here that says killing these birds is illegal. Surely they could at least find out who is buying the strychnine and other poisons by checking sales records? They could then use that information to narrow down their search. As far as I know this rudimentary step is not being done.

Unfortunately the Irish are appraently more creative than the Americans. A lot of readily available chemicals, which don't have to be signed for are being used.

The very fact that strychnine is available in the states, even in a restricted way, suggests that it is being used responsibly, because it had to be outlawed here decades ago.

There is plenty of will to tackle our problem here, but if it were as easy as you suggest, it would have been done years ago.

LC

steddyeddy · 06-01-2011 11:44PM

LostCovey wrote: »

Well I think that technology may be based upon stable isotopes rather than DNA, but even so it won't ever convict anyone. Unfortunately.

Say if one of my lambs dies tonight, you take it out of the field before I find it, poison it and put it in Feargal's field.

A crime-fighting approach won't work in my opinion.

LC

from what i know its dna based, stable isotopes wouldnt be adequate in proving culpability. Why wont a crime fighting aproach work? In fairness education wont work, some people will never understand the basics.

steddyeddy · 06-01-2011 11:47PM

LostCovey wrote: »

Unfortunately the Irish are appraently more creative than the Americans. A lot of readily available chemicals, which don't have to be signed for are being used.

The very fact that strychnine is available in the states, even in a restricted way, suggests that it is being used responsibly, because it had to be outlawed here decades ago.

There is plenty of will to tackle our problem here, but if it were as easy as you suggest, it would have been done years ago.

LC

What i dont understand is that if re introduced animal in the states was being killed the cuplrit would be found quite quickly. the only problem with reintroduced animals in america has been the wolf in yellowstone park and in fairness they have been known to wander and kill livestock.

Birdnuts · 07-01-2011 12:30AM

steddyeddy wrote: »

has been the wolf in yellowstone park and in fairness they have been known to wander and kill livestock.

A lot less then Coyotes or Red Foxes do and the fact is that were there are wolves, problem with these 2 species diminish signficantly. The fact is that the return of the wolf does not fit in with the "Red neck" agenda in the states. Wyoming has a a few hundred wolves now and I was astonished at how little impact they had on livestock compared to Coyotes or even Black bears. Wyoming is a massive state(many times bigger then the UK) and something like only 20 sheep and a handfull of cattle were lost to wolves in 2010 with full compensation provided.

Birdnuts · 07-01-2011 12:36AM

http://www.northernrockieswolves.org/wyoming/ranching.html

These are slightly older figures but they make the same point:)

steddyeddy · 07-01-2011 12:40AM

Birdnuts wrote: »

A lot less then Coyotes or Red Foxes do and the fact is that were there are wolves, problem with these 2 species diminish signficantly. The fact is that the return of the wolf does not fit in with the "Red neck" agenda in the states. Wyoming has a a few hundred wolves now and I was astonished at how little impact they had on livestock compared to Coyotes or even Black bears. Wyoming is a massive state(many times bigger then the UK) and something like only 20 sheep and a handfull of cattle were lost to wolves in 2010 with full compensation provided.

Couldnt agree more, it seems were a microcosm of the wyoming problem

littlebug · 07-01-2011 09:16AM

Birdnuts/ steddyeddy,
I know you're talking of wolves/ yellowstone as a comparison but If you want to continue that angle of discussion I can split those last few posts into a new thread for you lest this thread goes off topic?
littlebug

LostCovey · 07-01-2011 10:16AM

littlebug wrote: »

Birdnuts/ steddyeddy,
I know you're talking of wolves/ yellowstone as a comparison but If you want to continue that angle of discussion I can split those last few posts into a new thread for you lest this thread goes off topic?
littlebug

Apart from going off topic, the comparison with Wyoming etc is not really valid.

In Ireland the countryside is heavily populated compared with the US (or even Scotland). Apart from the small farms and fragmentation of holdings, poor planning and decades of farmers supplementing their income by flogging one acre selling sites has led to ribbon development and suburban levels of housing along some roads in country areas. Not al poisonings are done by farmers - so the pool of potential culprits is large.

If you have a mosaic of fields and small outfarms, I have grave doubts that any forensic technique will identify whose holding livestock carcasses have come from.

That is why I believe that the "CSI" approach can't work unless they get lucky, which will only result in isolated & sporadic prosecutions. At best.

Follow through all that, then take your luck with Irish sentencing policy.

LostCovey

steddyeddy · 07-01-2011 02:46PM

littlebug wrote: »

Birdnuts/ steddyeddy,
I know you're talking of wolves/ yellowstone as a comparison but If you want to continue that angle of discussion I can split those last few posts into a new thread for you lest this thread goes off topic?
littlebug

Apologies littlebug I didnt mean to take the thread off topic. ill keep to the eagles

steddyeddy · 07-01-2011 02:49PM

LostCovey wrote: »

Apart from going off topic, the comparison with Wyoming etc is not really valid.

In Ireland the countryside is heavily populated compared with the US (or even Scotland). Apart from the small farms and fragmentation of holdings, poor planning and decades of farmers supplementing their income by flogging one acre selling sites has led to ribbon development and suburban levels of housing along some roads in country areas. Not al poisonings are done by farmers - so the pool of potential culprits is large.

If you have a mosaic of fields and small outfarms, I have grave doubts that any forensic technique will identify whose holding livestock carcasses have come from.

That is why I believe that the "CSI" approach can't work unless they get lucky, which will only result in isolated & sporadic prosecutions. At best.

Follow through all that, then take your luck with Irish sentencing policy.

LostCovey

no i agree there is no real comparison, the only simularity however is that farmers on both sides of the pond have blown the threat to their livestock out of proportion. in the case of the irish waaay out of proportion!

steddyeddy · 07-01-2011 04:54PM

LostCovey wrote: »

Well I think that technology may be based upon stable isotopes rather than DNA, but even so it won't ever convict anyone. Unfortunately.

Say if one of my lambs dies tonight, you take it out of the field before I find it, poison it and put it in Feargal's field.

A crime-fighting approach won't work in my opinion.

LC

why wouldnt a crime fighting approach work with something illegal? the response to crime generally involves crime fighting. These people should get jail their breaking a law and according to friends of mine who work as wildlife consultants their actions will not be looked apoun favourably when the eu look at grants to the agriculture sector in 2013. This is about endangered species true but also about diplomatic relations with norway.

These people have broke the law and should be punished education is out at this stage.

Birdnuts · 07-01-2011 06:22PM

LostCovey wrote: »

Apart from going off topic, the comparison with Wyoming etc is not really valid.

In Ireland the countryside is heavily populated compared with the US (or even Scotland). Apart from the small farms and fragmentation of holdings, poor planning and decades of farmers supplementing their income by flogging one acre selling sites has led to ribbon development and suburban levels of housing along some roads in country areas. Not al poisonings are done by farmers - so the pool of potential culprits is large.

If you have a mosaic of fields and small outfarms, I have grave doubts that any forensic technique will identify whose holding livestock carcasses have come from.

That is why I believe that the "CSI" approach can't work unless they get lucky, which will only result in isolated & sporadic prosecutions. At best.

Follow through all that, then take your luck with Irish sentencing policy.

LostCovey

Yes but the vast majority of the occupants of ribbon developments and one -off housing in rural Ireland have no connection with farming of any description. Indeed the proportion of the rural population employed directly in farming continues to plummet year on year. As regards the "CSI" approach , the people I have spoke to close to the projects have hopes that this will indeed improve the conviction rate and help to build up a dossier that will allow them to "target" problem areas in terms of farm inspection regimes, audits, monitoring etc. I'm not saying its the whole answer but these minority of rogue farmers etc. (many of whom are in receipt of EU/taxpayer monies for various CAP schemes) will come increasingly to the attention of the authorities as cross-compliance measures in respect of farm supports become increasingly tighter going on the latest developments in Europe on this matter as the deadline for the major overhaul of EU farm supports approaches.

Poisoning/Shooting of Birds of Prey - Please read guidelines in first post

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