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Do you believe political correctness is gone too far?

1356

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  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 18,100 Mod ✭✭✭✭ixoy


    It's not entirely new though. Agatha Christie's best selling novel (100m copies apparentlt!) is "And Then There Were None" but was originally published in the UK in 1939 as "Ten Little Nig*ers". Even in the US at that time, it was published under a different name (70 years ago from the current PC climate). Both version though had them meeting on "Nig*er Island" and using the rhyme "Ten Little Nig*ers".

    It was in the 1980s that the name change for the novel came about in the UK and all references were changed to "Soldier".

    It's not new - just perhaps ever more pevalent.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 986 ✭✭✭joe stodge


    yes it has. anyone else remember a few years ago the bbc tried to censor the fairytale of new york.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,567 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    Is PC gone too far?

    Yes, certainly in a number of cases.
    For example - and I only use the following as a typical example - a shocking investigation today in the English Times:
    The Times has identified 17 court prosecutions since 1997, 14 of them during the past three years, involving the on-street grooming of girls aged 11 to 16 by groups of men. The victims came from 13 towns and cities and in each case two or more men were convicted of offences.

    In total, 56 people, with an average age of 28, were found guilty of crimes including rape, child abduction, indecent assault and sex with a child. Three of the 56 were white, 53 were Asian. Of those, 50 were Muslim and a majority were members of the British Pakistani community.

    However because of civil servants of the state afraid to speak up and have the claim of "racism" thrown at them, for fear of not been see to be politically correct, this matter alone has been apparently sweeped under the carpet.

    Its things like this that make me think that political correctness might have gone too far.


    For those interested in that actual article - here is the contents.
    Anyone else not bothered to read the long item, feel free to pass it by.


    Revealed: conspiracy of silence on UK sex gangs
    A culture of silence that has facilitated the sexual exploitation of hundreds of young British girls by criminal pimping gangs is exposed by The Times today.

    For more than a decade, child protection experts have identified a repeated pattern of sex offending in towns and cities across northern England and the Midlands involving groups of older men who groom and abuse vulnerable girls aged 11 to 16 after befriending them on the street.

    Most of the victims are white and most of the convicted offenders are of Pakistani heritage, unlike other known models of child-sex offending in Britain, including child abuse initiated by online grooming, in which the vast majority of perpetrators are white.

    Northern police forces have investigated gangs of on-street predators for at least 14 years. In the most serious cases, children have been moved around the country in cars and used for sex by older men. This has led to abortions for girls as young as 12. In November, a court heard that when a South Yorkshire victim, aged 13, was examined by a nurse she appeared to have been raped more than 50 times.

    Most forces, in common with charities and agencies working to help girls who have endured weeks and sometimes months and years of repeated sexual abuse, have denied publicly that ethnicity has any relevance to this pattern of on-street grooming.

    The Times has identified 17 court prosecutions since 1997, 14 of them during the past three years, involving the on-street grooming of girls aged 11 to 16 by groups of men. The victims came from 13 towns and cities and in each case two or more men were convicted of offences.

    In total, 56 people, with an average age of 28, were found guilty of crimes including rape, child abduction, indecent assault and sex with a child. Three of the 56 were white, 53 were Asian. Of those, 50 were Muslim and a majority were members of the British Pakistani community.

    Several police sources have told The Times that those convicted represent only a small proportion of what one detective described as a “tidal wave” of offending that has been uncovered in Yorkshire, Lancashire, Greater Manchester and some Midlands counties.

    A senior West Mercia detective has now called for an end to the “damaging taboo” surrounding gang-led on-street grooming, which he blames on a fear among police and child protection workers of being branded racist. Detective Chief Inspector Alan Edwards said: “These girls are being passed around and used as meat. To stop this type of crime you need to start talking about it, but everyone’s been too scared to address the ethnicity factor. No one wants to stand up and say that Pakistani guys in some parts of the country are recruiting young white girls and passing them around their relatives for sex, but we need to stop being worried about the racial complication.”

    Writing in The Times today, Mohammed Shafiq, chief executive of the Ramadhan Foundation, a national Muslim youth organisation, says: “These people think that white girls have fewer morals and are less valuable than our girls. This is a form of racism that is abhorrent and totally unacceptable in a society that prides itself on equality and justice.”

    No research has been carried out into why such a high proportion of the offenders belong to one minority ethnicity and with the exception of one town there is scant evidence of work being undertaken in British Pakistani communities to confront the problem.

    The Times has seen a briefing document by researchers at the UCL Jill Dando Institute of Security and Crime Science, which notes that victims are typically white girls aged 13 to 16 and that “most central offenders are Pakistani”, warning that “race is a delicate issue” that needs to be “handled sensitively but not brushed under the carpet”. The briefing document suggests that the offenders are not paedophiles; they target the girls “because of their malleability”.

    In the Netherlands many groomers are of Moroccan heritage and a Dutch Muslim organisation has led a project seeking to challenge a cultural mindset that leads some young men to view non-Muslim girls with contempt.

    Mr Edwards’ belief that similar work is needed in Britain is backed by another senior detective, who led a grooming investigation in West Yorkshire. Lack of public acknowledgement of the race factor in such cases has left a void exploited in some communities by the British National Party and other far-right groups.

    In reality, such crimes are abhorred by the vast majority of Muslims. Though most of the girls targeted have been white, among the victims of a Pakistani gang in one city were several Bangladeshi Muslim girls.

    The Child Exploitation and Online Protection Centre said in 2009 that networks of “white British, British Asians and Kurdish asylum-seekers” had been “prominently identified” as internal sex traffickers of British girls.

    “Kurds are identified as being dominant in the North East of England, but Anglo-Asian groups appear to be in control in the Midlands. There are . . . suggestions that in London, West Indian (Caribbean) and Bangladeshi networks are similarly exploiting . . . females for sex.” With the exception of one case involving two white men in Blackburn, The Times has been unable to identify any court case in which two or more white British, Kurdish, African-Caribbean or Bangladeshi men have been convicted of child-sex offences linked to on-street grooming.

    The Home Office said last night that although child protection was “an absolute priority”, it had no plans to commission research into the ethnic and cultural background of on-street groomers.

    “We expect all local agencies to treat these crimes extremely seriously and to work together to address problems in individual communities,” said a spokesman.

    * http://img84.imageshack.us/img84/2172/wwwthetimescoukttonewsu.jpg

    * http://img254.imageshack.us/img254/3489/captureqg.jpg

    http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/uk/crime/article2863058.ece


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,650 ✭✭✭sensibleken


    Very interesting article biggins and from a reputable paper.

    I would query how much that has to do with political correctness. a number of years ago there were multiple inquiries in the aftermath of the stephen laurence case which exposed institutionalised racism within the British police forces.

    Now its important to distinguish between political correctness and genuine racism. It may be because of prior, high profile investigations into race relations that officers are afraid to highlight cases such as these. That does not however mean genuine racism should be investigated.

    Could asian officers investigate this? I dont think it should have to be done by officers of the same race but if the setiment portrayed in that article is widespread i would think the UK authorities have a big problem.

    I do see it less to do with political correctness and more to do with a real problem of race relations, which britain unfortunetely is no stranger to


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 34,567 ✭✭✭✭Biggins


    Well like I said I only use it as a possible example.
    Generally anyway, I do fell sometimes we have gone too PC.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,532 ✭✭✭✭Lumen


    There is a simple and perfectly reasonable idea, that something is offensive if it offends people, and that needlessly offending people is inconsiderate.

    Then you have the idiots on both sides who seize this idea like a club with which to beat each other.

    Idiot #1: "You can't say baa baa black sheep, because it's offensive".
    Idiot #2: "Don't you come at me with that political correctness crap, I'll say what I like".

    etc

    And then you have the parasites like the Daily Wail, who sell newspapers by making idiots angry about One Armed Lesbians Giving You Cancer. They assemble the anecdotes, half-truths distorted and taken out of context, and construct the Grand Conspiracy Of Political Correctness. And the idiots buy and read those newspapers to get angry, because it's cathartic, because it eases the rage they feel at being stupid ignorant losers.

    And the broadsheets comment on the idiocy of the tabloids, fulfilling the needs of their idiot readers to feel superior to the ignorant proles.

    And so it continues, around and around.

    Say what you like, but be prepared to defend it. And maybe if you offended someone that was their fault for being an oversensitive idiot, and maybe it was yours.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,273 ✭✭✭Morlar


    Biggins wrote: »
    Is PC gone too far?

    Yes, certainly in a number of cases.
    For example - and I only use the following as a typical example - a shocking investigation today in the English Times:
    In total, 56 people, with an average age of 28, were found guilty of crimes including rape, child abduction, indecent assault and sex with a child. Three of the 56 were white, 53 were Asian. Of those, 50 were Muslim and a majority were members of the British Pakistani community.

    Gotta say that's the most disturbing thing I have read on here in quite a while. All the more shocking because it has been totally ignored by every other media outlet (that I am aware of). I remember reading or hearing something vaguely similair from the BNP a few years back and dismissing it at the time as total fiction. Unreal.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,798 ✭✭✭✭DrumSteve


    I going to complain to Joe Duffy about this.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,331 ✭✭✭RichieC


    Biggins wrote: »
    Is PC gone too far?

    Yes, certainly in a number of cases.
    For example - and I only use the following as a typical example - a shocking investigation today in the English Times:



    However because of civil servants of the state afraid to speak up and have the claim of "racism" thrown at them, for fear of not been see to be politically correct, this matter alone has been apparently sweeped under the carpet.

    Its things like this that make me think that political correctness might have gone too far.

    Why do the races involved have any bearing on the story? That's probably why it's being ignored, cum hoc ergo propter hoc. most papers will go to lengths to avoid jumping on a racist bandwagon with the daily fail and it's ideological partners.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 26,566 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    Lol at all the Micks throwing a Paddy about political correctness.

    Note: this is meant to demonstrate that maybe political correctness does have a place.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,273 ✭✭✭Morlar


    Lol at all the Micks throwing a Paddy about political correctness.

    Note: this is meant to demonstrate that maybe political correctness does have a place.

    There is a difference between referring to Irish people as 'micks' and say for example . .. mainstream media ignoring relevant aspects of stories based on a fear of being falsely accused of racism.

    Ya fookin brit.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 26,566 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    Morlar wrote: »
    There is a difference between referring to Irish people as 'micks' and say for example . .. mainstream media ignoring relevant aspects of stories based on a fear of being falsely accused of racism.

    Ya fookin brit.

    My post was meant in the context of the OP.

    However, I don't think it is the press running scared, I think it is various home office departments not wanting to give ammunition to the likes of the BNP.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,273 ✭✭✭Morlar


    My post was meant in the context of the OP.

    However, I don't think it is the press running scared, I think it is various home office departments not wanting to give ammunition to the likes of the BNP.

    Fair enough but press/home office - the point remains the same.

    Re 'not giving ammunition to the likes of the BNP' - my take on that would be that avoiding dealing with it or trying to supress those aspects of this story is itself what gives the ammunition to the likes of the BNP and their supporters. Once they can legitimately feel marginalised they are more vulnerable to feelings of distrust in the media and therefore more likely to believe some of the wackier stories and less likely to believe mainstream commentators/sources. Also there is a worrying question of whether or not the home office has a moral right to suppress aspects of stories (or for example crime statistics) for political reasons.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1 de mad hoor


    Yes, PC has gone too far. It is a tool of the left wing to nurture their way's without going to the ballot box. Cultural marxism of the Frankfurt School.
    It is all around us and is spread through our Institutions via Common Purpose. A 'charity' that picks and 'trains' potential and current leaders in all parts of the media, education, health services, council and govt. depts. armed forces and commercial sectors.
    The one's that have been influenced cease to serve the people and start introducing victimhood and communicate in Orwellian thoughtspeak.
    It's only purpose is to disenfranchise the majority and promote minorities in order to deconstruct the state as we know it. They really do hate us and all the west stands for.
    Sounds a bit nuts but take a 5 mins surf.
    As for the article in the Mail about Muslim Pakistani, Bangladehi, Iraqi and Kurdish gangs of predatory racist peodophiles. That was actually on the front page of the Times first and they claimed exclusivity.
    The BNP and Nick Griffin have been taken to court twice for highlighting this charged with inciting racial and religous hatred both times acquitted.
    The C4 documentary was postponed until after the General Election at the request of the Police.
    It was not in order to deny the BNP or anybody else the ammunition, for it is there for all who want to see it.
    It was to deny them votes because that is what scare's them, Votes! God forbid any non PC partys get any votes. They might have to listen.
    As we in Ireland are all too aware votes are only OK if they support the governors.
    This is a much more serious subject than just rabble whinging.
    As for nostalgia, there is something here for all Ireland and the UK to enjoy and rediscover a lost world. http://www.sterlingtimes.co.uk/


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 37,214 ✭✭✭✭Dudess


    No, it's a system of tiptoe-ing around the most innocuous things for fear of offending some groups, and while there is the odd isolated incident of silliness, I really can't see how it has permeated our culture to the point of "going too far". Who here's life has been ruined by political correctness?

    A lot of people don't know what it means and a lot of people throw out the line "political correctness gone MAD!" without even thinking. Plus, "PC brigade" is one of the most retarded phrases ever (yep, "retarded" - not a politically correct word).

    The original tenets of political correctness too were only a good thing - basically they discouraged bullying of minorities.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 27,944 ✭✭✭✭4zn76tysfajdxp


    Political correctness hasn't gone far enough, thanks to those ****ing ********.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,350 ✭✭✭Lust4Life


    I would leave my opinion, but I wouldn't want to offend any one.....











    (Tiptoes out the back door of thread)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 417 ✭✭muffy


    zerks wrote: »
    The PC brigade are the loons that appear in the media to defend criminals because they are 'misunderstood',they have infiltrated positions in various organisations and serve no purpose than think of bizzare rules on what we can say and do.

    I remember a few years ago Gerry Ryan was discussing a child abuse case saying he would castrate anyone that did it to his kids,some bleeding heart pc'er was on and nearly fainted claiming he couldn't say that about another human.They preach tolerance yet crush our traditions for fear of offending someone.

    Frankie Boyle is their sworn enemy.....fact.


    Comedy must go wayyyy over your head if you in fact think Frankie Boyle is an enemy of the "PC Brigade"

    Anyone who uses the term "PC Brigade" seriously is not worth taking seriously imo.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,562 ✭✭✭scientific1982




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,900 ✭✭✭littlefriend


    Why is saying black sheep offensive or was that a joke?


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 37,214 ✭✭✭✭Dudess


    Apparently there was a move (in the States, I think) to change the line "Baa baa black sheep" to "Baa baa rainbow sheep", yet it's not as if that's caught on, despite the claims of "political correctness has gone too far" - if that rainbow sheep story is even true (which I don't think it is)...
    muffy wrote: »
    Comedy must go wayyyy over your head if you in fact think Frankie Boyle is an enemy of the "PC Brigade"
    Some people mistake "not being black and white about everything" for "being politically correct" - in which case Frankie Boyle himself is politically correct. He's extremely right-on - and despised by the conservative media, which itself regularly whinges about "political correctness gone mad".
    I love that clip. Yep, extreme political correctness is just used as a stick to beat people who advocate a bit of tolerance and a bit of... thinking before making kneejerk claims. A bit like the way man-hating feminazis can be used as a stick to beat reasonable feminists, or even just women.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,273 ✭✭✭Morlar


    Dudess wrote: »
    No, it's a system of tiptoe-ing around the most innocuous things for fear of offending some groups, and while there is the odd isolated incident of silliness, I really can't see how it has permeated our culture to the point of "going too far". Who here's life has been ruined by political correctness?

    I don't think you need to have your life ruined by something for it to have gone too far. Personally I believe it is excessive. In this case here is an example of how it has permeated our culture :

    http://www.independent.ie/entertainment/books/censored-huckleberry-finn-prompts-political-correctness-debate-2484947.html


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,650 ✭✭✭sensibleken


    Morlar wrote: »
    I don't think you need to have your life ruined by something for it to have gone too far. Personally I believe it is excessive. In this case here is an example of how it has permeated our culture :

    http://www.independent.ie/entertainment/books/censored-huckleberry-finn-prompts-political-correctness-debate-2484947.html

    yes, thats the story that the thread was started on. And as we've been discussing its a minor incident blown out of all proportion. We dont know how many schools are involved but there are millions in the US and this probably affects a hell of a lot less than the amount who teach creationism in science class


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,273 ✭✭✭Morlar


    yes, thats the story that the thread was started on. And as we've been discussing its a minor incident blown out of all proportion. We dont know how many schools are involved but there are millions in the US and this probably affects a hell of a lot less than the amount who teach creationism in science class

    Personally I wouldn't class revisiting classic works of literature in order that you can re-write them to be more 'correct' as a minor incident.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 14,949 ✭✭✭✭IvyTheTerrible


    The fools that have removed the words ****** and injun from Huckleberry Finn have so completely missed the point of that novel.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,650 ✭✭✭sensibleken


    Morlar wrote: »
    Personally I wouldn't class revisiting classic works of literature in order that you can re-write them to be more 'correct' as a minor incident.

    Why, do we know how many schools are adopting it? Its stupid but the indo article doesnt show examples of the opposition its facing.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,273 ✭✭✭Morlar


    Why, do we know how many schools are adopting it? Its stupid but the indo article doesnt show examples of the opposition its facing.

    I think that's just not the point. It had originally been removed/phased out from schools across america for reasons of political correctness to begin with. This new edition is to reverse that original removal so how many schools adopt the 'correct' version is irrelevant. Also it's a bit spurious to say it's only an issue if x amount or x percentage of schools use it daily. The very fact that this has been done is ominous enough in my view - the fact is that this has orwellian overtones to it. Very 'communist russia' if you ask me.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,709 ✭✭✭✭Cantona's Collars


    muffy wrote: »
    Comedy must go wayyyy over your head if you in fact think Frankie Boyle is an enemy of the "PC Brigade"

    Anyone who uses the term "PC Brigade" seriously is not worth taking seriously imo.

    Tongue in cheek post,don't take everything you read in AH literally.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,283 ✭✭✭Chorcai


    Would it not be better to leave in the word and teach why and how it used, explain the context to which it was used. -oh wait... :rolleyes:


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,650 ✭✭✭sensibleken


    Morlar wrote: »
    I think that's just not the point. It had originally been removed/phased out from schools across america for reasons of political correctness to begin with. This new edition is to reverse that original removal so how many schools adopt the 'correct' version is irrelevant. Also it's a bit spurious to say it's only an issue if x amount or x percentage of schools use it daily. The very fact that this has been done is ominous enough in my view - the fact is that this has orwellian overtones to it. Very 'communist russia' if you ask me.

    You do realise this kind of nonsense has been going on since the printed word began. Pc is a relatively new thing and even the most controversy about this novel happened during the civil rights era.

    Comparing this to the type of censorship in the USSR is frankly mad. its no where near that bad. You have had editing of books, banning of books since the ching dynasty but you cant ascribe every bit of censorship to political correctness.


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