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The NRA must be stopped

  • 27-12-2010 2:32pm
    #1
    Cress
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12 ✭Cress


    From today's Irish Times - 'Claim that roads body still buying farmland' - http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2010/1227/1224286317335.html


    The NRA are a bunch of 1970s dinosaurs who are living on another planet of limitless resource consumption and happy motoring.

    Like the construction bubble, the roads-building programme in Ireland was a colossal environmental, societal and economic folly and any future road planning should be completely halted and the NRA wound down.

    There is a global environmental emergency and Ireland, no less than any developed country in the world, needs to dramatically reduce its car use and driving, and start getting about in ways which are in harmony with society and the planet. The NRA appear to know nothing about carbon emissions and the end of the cheap energy era.

    Ireland's car use and car dependency is chronically high; traffic levels in urban areas are intolerable, and a walk on a country road is becoming impossible because of speeding vehicles.

    Yet, instead of doing everything to curb this socially futureless existence, a government-sponsored body (the NRA) was aiding and facilitating it by building more and bigger roads, and in the process destroying unspoilt natural landscapes and ecology and inhibiting Ireland's ability to meet greenhouse-gas requirements.

    Environmentally, the NRA's orgy of roadbuilding being overlaid on years of bad planning and sprawl was like the firebombing of Japan in World War II being followed by its nuclear bombing.

    There will be future inquires into the scandal of the National Road-building Programme of the noughties, while the roads themselves roads lie empty with cracking surfaces in the post-cheap energy era. It should be completely stopped now before another cent is spent.
    Tagged:


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Comments

  • #2
    Chris_5339762
    Registered Users Posts: 5,848 ✭✭✭Chris_5339762


    Right, where to begin with this rant (possibly a troll).

    The NRA are a bunch of 1970s dinosaurs who are living on another planet of limitless resource consumption and happy motoring.

    No they arent.

    Like the construction bubble, the roads-building programme in Ireland was a colossal environmental, societal and economic folly and any future road planning should be completely halted and the NRA wound down.

    No it shouldnt. Roads are part of the overall solution and help public transport. Think of the benefits the M4/6 has given to Galway - Dublin buses. Also, try driving on the N20. It wasnt a folly it was just about the only good thing the government actually did.

    There is a global environmental emergency no there isnt and Ireland, no less than any developed country in the world, needs to dramatically reduce its car use and driving, and start getting about in ways which are in harmony with society and the planet. The NRA appear to know nothing about carbon emissions and the end of the cheap energy era.

    Nor seemingly do you. Think of everyone sitting at Newlands Cross and how their cars are idling, where a car is most inefficiant. How much better it will be in every respect when that junction is fixed. Also, you'd like everyone to keep slowing down and stopping in every two-bit town on a national route rather than travelling at a speed that the car is most efficent at?

    Ireland's car use and car dependency is chronically high; traffic levels in urban areas are intolerable, and a walk on a country road is becoming impossible because of speeding vehicles.

    Its not chronically high, but we have a distributed society where cars are required. The urban areas could have much better public transport though.

    Yet, instead of doing everything to curb this socially futureless existence, a government-sponsored body (the NRA) was aiding and facilitating it by building more and bigger roads, and in the process destroying unspoilt natural landscapes and ecology and inhibiting Ireland's ability to meet greenhouse-gas requirements.

    Roads that were necessary in the most case. And no, the landscape isnt unspoint because of roads (narrow pieces of tar) it is ruined because of bad planning and an obsession with one off housing.

    Environmentally, the NRA's orgy of roadbuilding being overlaid on years of bad planning and sprawl was like the firebombing of Japan in World War II being followed by its nuclear bombing.

    I'm not even going to comment on this nonsense.

    There will be future inquires into the scandal of the National Road-building Programme of the noughties, while the roads themselves roads lie empty with cracking surfaces in the post-cheap energy era. It should be completely stopped now before another cent is spent.

    No there wont and nor should it. Ask just about anyone except for the hippies and they'll be delighted about the motorway program and will look forward to the gaps being filled.

    All in all, a totally uninformed rant. :cool:


  • #3
    Cress
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12 ✭Cress


    I might have predicted this reply glancing down through the threads in the 'Roads' section. Is it about discussion on roads or about uncritical celebration of road building?

    Another point: we are ending up with roads officials from the USA (Sean what's-his-name who's been on the news about the snow lately, and another one who spoke on Nationwide recently) where the post-war road prgramme is now recognised as a failed experiment in human ecology. For more on this google James Howard Kunstler and the 'national automobile slum'.


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q1ZeXnmDZMQ


  • #4
    Hank_Jones
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,783 ✭✭✭Hank_Jones


    Hmmmm now you're bordering on being a bigot.

    God forbid that someone from the U.S should ever get a job in Ireland,
    it's not like any Irish ever went over there....


  • #5
    Cress
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12 ✭Cress


    Oh spare me that particular cliche!! The point is: We are using those involved in a failed soceital experiment - ie. the North-American, post-war, suburban sprawl / motor car-borne soceity - to replicate that soceity here.

    Sleepwalking Into the Future

    by James Howard Kunstler

    Years from now, the denizens of Long Island may shake their heads in wonder and nausea as they attempt to repair the mighty mess that was made here during the 20th century. My term for this mess is the national automobile slum. I think it’s more precise than the usual generic term suburban sprawl. A slum, after all, is clearly understood to be a place that offers a very low quality of life. And the mess is everywhere. Every corner of our nation is now afflicted. The on-ramps of Hempstead aren’t any more spiritually rewarding than the ones in Beverly Hills. We’ve become a United Parking Lot of America.

    We have utterly relinquished the everyday world of our nation to the automobile. I don’t think it is possible to overstate the damage that this has done to us collectively as a civilization and as individual souls. The national automobile slum is a place where the past has been obliterated and the future has been foreclosed. Since past represents our memories and the future our hope, life in a car slum is life with no memory and no hope. How many of us can gaze out over a typical highway strip like the Jericho Turnpike and imagine a hopeful future for it or for the people who will have to live with it?

    Suburbia sends out a message of overwhelming hopelessness: “no future here.” Teenagers, who are struggling to develop a meaningful view of life, are especially susceptible to this grim message and are apt to personalize it. If my surroundings have no future, than there is no place for me and I have no future. It is inevitable that such conditions would provoke tremendous anxiety and depression. Add to this the fact that teenagers are just discovering their adult power to act decisively and you have a recipe for the carrying out of tragic deeds.



    Edit: Kunstler's blog - http://www.kunstler.com/index.php


  • #6
    roosterman71
    Registered Users Posts: 5,339 ✭✭✭roosterman71


    Oh spare me that particular cliche!! The point is: We are using those involved in a failed soceital experiment - ie. the North-American, post-war, suburban sprawl / motor car-borne soceity - to replicate that soceity here.


    Quote:
    Sleepwalking Into the Future

    by James Howard Kunstler

    Years from now, the denizens of Long Island may shake their heads in wonder and nausea as they attempt to repair the mighty mess that was made here during the 20th century. My term for this mess is the national automobile slum. I think it’s more precise than the usual generic term suburban sprawl. A slum, after all, is clearly understood to be a place that offers a very low quality of life. And the mess is everywhere. Every corner of our nation is now afflicted. The on-ramps of Hempstead aren’t any more spiritually rewarding than the ones in Beverly Hills. We’ve become a United Parking Lot of America.

    We have utterly relinquished the everyday world of our nation to the automobile. I don’t think it is possible to overstate the damage that this has done to us collectively as a civilization and as individual souls. The national automobile slum is a place where the past has been obliterated and the future has been foreclosed. Since past represents our memories and the future our hope, life in a car slum is life with no memory and no hope. How many of us can gaze out over a typical highway strip like the Jericho Turnpike and imagine a hopeful future for it or for the people who will have to live with it?

    Suburbia sends out a message of overwhelming hopelessness: “no future here.” Teenagers, who are struggling to develop a meaningful view of life, are especially susceptible to this grim message and are apt to personalize it. If my surroundings have no future, than there is no place for me and I have no future. It is inevitable that such conditions would provoke tremendous anxiety and depression. Add to this the fact that teenagers are just discovering their adult power to act decisively and you have a recipe for the carrying out of tragic deeds.


    Edit: Kunstler's blog - http://www.kunstler.com/index.php

    DoubleFacePalm.jpg


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  • #7
    veryangryman
    Registered Users Posts: 5,528 ✭✭✭veryangryman


    Motorways are a failed idea? Seriously quit hogging the egg nog this Christmas man

    Good to see Mysterious back in any case. The forum was getting less exciting without these raving nonsensical posts. Always fun to put them in their place of course :pac:


  • #8
    Sponge Bob
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    I always thought Mysterious was a pro motorway loony not an anti motorway loony in fairness :)


  • #9
    dubhthach
    Registered Users Posts: 3,284 ✭✭✭dubhthach


    As far as I know Seán O'Neill's parents are from Connemara. He is as Irish as anyone here. To follow up on what Hank said, heaven forbid an irishman might get a job in the American equivalent of the NRA (Sure that wouldn't be allowed now would it? :rolleyes: )

    Aside from that given that land value as crashed it's surely the perfect time to buy land for future schemes. It's a pity that the land for the inter-urbans wasn't bought 20years ago as it would have saved 100's of millions due to inflated land values caused by the Bubble.

    As for "environmental argument" surely cars travelling at a constant speed on a Motorway are considerably less polutting then idling while crawling through one village after another?


  • #10
    Tailors Hall
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11 ✭Tailors Hall


    I think you all misinterpret the article; nobody is saying that roads are bad; they are a necessary component of any balanced transport system.

    In the past five years the inter-urban motorway network has effectively linked Belfast with Cork and Dublin with Galway. Given the population distribution it is fair to say that Ireland now has an inter-urban network.

    The authors of the article make a very fair point; why should funds be deployed buying land for schemes that there is no money to pay for them. A lot of these projects were spurious, in the extreme even when the exchequer was rolling in cash; building a motorway to Tuam a town of 3,000 people at a cost of hundreds of millions, oh dear... And before anyone trots out Atlantic Corridor, Tallaght has a population exceeding every town from Claregalway to Letterkenny combined and survives with a tram link.

    I suspect the IMF will end this madness before more untrained people are forced to emmigrate on the N17 because they were no prospects of spending a couple of years on a course because funds were blown on a road scheme serving a town with a population of 3,000 people.


  • #11
    -Corkie-
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,025 ✭✭✭✭-Corkie-


    Sponge Bob wrote: »
    I always thought Mysterious was a pro motorway loony not an anti motorway loony in fairness :)

    Wasnt his name Mire of gloom or something...:D:D


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  • #12
    Tech3
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,010 ✭✭✭Tech3


    Tailors Hall wrote: »
    A lot of these projects were spurious, in the extreme even when the exchequer was rolling in cash; building a motorway to Tuam a town of 3,000 people at a cost of hundreds of millions, oh dear... And before anyone trots out Atlantic Corridor, Tallaght has a population exceeding every town from Claregalway to Letterkenny combined and survives with a tram link.

    I suspect the IMF will end this madness before more untrained people are forced to emmigrate on the N17 because they were no prospects of spending a couple of years on a course because funds were blown on a road scheme serving a town with a population of 3,000 people.

    Wow what a silly rant. In case you dont know this road scheme which will start constuction ealy next year and will connect our 3rd and 4th largest cities by motorway/dual carriageway standard road.

    On the M17 part well then you obviously havnt travelled on this route before. It is inept for a national primary road linking effectively the north and south of the country west corridor with a goat track. The new road will benefit people from Kerry, Cork, Limerick, Clare, Tipperary, Mayo, Galway, Roscommon, Sligo and Donegal to name just a few counties.

    Now there is extra traffic involved. N5 traffic may instead go N17/M17/M6/M4 on the direction to dublin as the route would be much better from certain areas around the west of Ireland. The M17 will bring significant improvements to transport in Ireland whether you like it or not.


  • #13
    Ren2k7
    Registered Users Posts: 1,161 ✭✭✭Ren2k7


    The OP should also remember that over the next 10-20 years enormous steps will be taken to get cars to run exclusively on plug in electric power rendering discussion on the environmental impact of cars moot.

    With greater efficiency in cars, motorists will be making far greater use of motorways than today.


  • #14
    Tailors Hall
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11 ✭Tailors Hall


    tech2 wrote: »
    Wow what a silly rant. In case you dont know this road scheme which will start constuction ealy next year and will connect our 3rd and 4th largest cities by motorway/dual carriageway standard road..

    The M17 will not connect any cities it will connect Oranmore and Tuam. You will note I did not object to the M18 which does link Limerick/Cork with Galway.

    tech2 wrote: »
    On the M17 part well then you obviously havnt travelled on this route before. It is inept for a national primary road linking effectively the north and south of the country west corridor with a goat track. The new road will benefit people from Kerry, Cork, Limerick, Clare, Tipperary, Mayo, Galway, Roscommon, Sligo and Donegal to name just a few counties. .

    How often do people from Kerry go to Donegal?

    Can you even list the population of urban seetlements between Claregalway and Letterkenny; what are the existing daily traffic counts?

    tech2 wrote: »
    Now there is extra traffic involved. N5 traffic may instead go N17/M17/M6/M4 on the direction to dublin as the route would be much better from certain areas around the west of Ireland. The M17 will bring significant improvements to transport in Ireland whether you like it or not.

    The M17 if it is not pulled by the IMF will be a bigger white elephant than the M3 and Limerick tunnel combined. I'd love to see the private sector response if they were offered the right to build and toll it; how many takers? Do we hear the phone ringing from Macquirie or Goldman or HSBC?


  • #15
    Amtmann
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,093 ✭✭✭Amtmann


    Here is the full text of the article:
    THE NATIONAL Roads Authority (NRA) is continuing to buy up farmland for road schemes that no longer have Government approval due to cutbacks in the capital spending programme, an environmental group has claimed.

    Plan Better, a coalition formed by An Taisce, Friends of the Earth, Feasta and Friends of the Irish Environment, said 22,000 acres of agricultural land could be purchased over the next four years for “ghost roads”.

    A spokesman for the NRA said it had “no comment” to make on Plan Better’s claim.

    According to the group, the Government agreed with the EU and International Monetary Fund that no major road scheme would start in 2012 or 2013. Yet €600 million had been allocated for new roads in 2012 and another €260 million the following year.

    “With every kilometre of motorway removing 25 to 30 acres of land from agriculture, the road building authority gambles that a future government can be browbeaten into building around 800km of motorway after it has bought some 22,000 acres of land,” said Plan Better.

    “The latest move in the NRA’s landgrab is evident in Wexford where steps to purchase land have just been taken in the case of the New Ross-Enniscorthy motorway/dual-carriageway project. More than half-a-dozen other schemes are also being moved towards land purchase.”

    Plan Better said this was happening even though traffic levels on the road network had fallen by 7 per cent over the past two years and the NRA would have to pay €100 million to contractors for two toll roads – the M3 and Limerick tunnel – due to low traffic.

    I for one am happy to hear that the NRA are buying land. After all, according to SpongeBob here, based on their allocation for 2011 and the costs of confirmed new builds, there's quite a surplus in the NRA's budget that should be spent on a certain number of CPOs in my view.

    Interesting that the only land purchase mentioned in that article is for the M11/N25 Enniscorthy-New Ross Bypass PPP, which has tacit approval from the government for a possible start prior to 2015 anyway, as outlined in the Four-Year Plan. Now, I'd love for the land for the N22 North Ring Road, the N28 and the N24 Pallasgreen to Cahir scheme to be purchased now, at rock bottom prices. These roads will be built in due course, and they certainly won't be 'ghost roads', whatever that's supposed to mean.


  • #16
    Stark
    Registered Users Posts: 20,886 ✭✭✭✭Stark


    Cress is just upset that he can no longer drive up and town the country forcing people to do 60km/hr. Maybe he can recruit his new tag team friend Tailors to drive two abreast with him on our new dual carriageways and then he'll be happy.


  • #17
    Chris_5339762
    Registered Users Posts: 5,848 ✭✭✭Chris_5339762


    The M17 is the only part of the Galway - Letterkenny route that will be motorway. Having that section as motorway is probably a good idea, so long as the Claregalway relief road gets built. Anything north of that can be 2+2.

    By the way, the N17 at Tuam (northern terminus) carried 23k AADT in August 2010. Lets compare that with 22k AADT on the Watergrasshill part of the M8. Wonder what kind of riots there would be if Watergrasshill didnt have its bypass?

    Once the M17 section is built people will wonder how we ever did without it, just like every single other motorway in the country.


  • #18
    Tech3
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,010 ✭✭✭Tech3


    Tailors Hall wrote: »
    How often do people from Kerry go to Donegal?

    People do travel from Kerry/Limerick to as far as Sligo/Donegal. It may be in low numbers but adds up to the total AADT which will run on the M17. The current N17 has an AADT of 23K at Claregalway with a goat track at the minute. Also you have to include traffic from the M6,N5 and even N52. Also traffic from Galway city to Tuam will use it.
    Can you even list the population of urban seetlements between Claregalway and Letterkenny; what are the existing daily traffic counts?

    The relevant AADT on a current goat track is 23K at Claregalway. It will be more when there is a motorway in place as there will be no holdups in commuter ridden N roads.


    The M17 if it is not pulled by the IMF will be a bigger white elephant than the M3 and Limerick tunnel combined. I'd love to see the private sector response if they were offered the right to build and toll it; how many takers? Do we hear the phone ringing from Macquirie or Goldman or HSBC?

    The road will be shadow tolled meaning the government repays the loan. The Limerick Tunnel and M3 is tolled on the mainline.


  • #19
    dubhthach
    Registered Users Posts: 3,284 ✭✭✭dubhthach


    Tailors Hall wrote: »

    Can you even list the population of urban seetlements between Claregalway and Letterkenny; what are the existing daily traffic counts?

    I don't know why you are fixating on Claregalway perhaps because it's small. But Galway City boundary is within 7km's of it. Traffic from Galway <-> Sligo will use the new Motorway. As for list of populations here's a stab using Census 2006

    Galway City & Environs: 72,729
    Claregalway & Environs: 1,635
    Oranmore: 3,513
    Athenry: 3,205
    Tuam & Environs: 6,885
    Claremorris: 2,595
    Knock: 745
    Colloney: 892
    Sligo & Environs: 19,402
    Bundoran: 1,964
    Ballyshannon: 2,686
    Donegal Town: 2,339
    Ballybofey-Stranorla 4,176
    Letterkenny & Environs: 17,586

    Total: 121,142

    Of course you have to factor in the huge amount of one-off housing around the N17 corridor. This would easily increase the above figure by 50% if not more (depending on how wide you would want the corridor).

    The AADT at Tuam is within bounds for what is proposed there especially when you factor in growth of use over the next 25years


  • #20
    Tailors Hall
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11 ✭Tailors Hall


    Galway City & Environs: 72,729

    A city which has 6 National primary routes and copious amounts of development land in the City's docklands; its own airport and a motorway and rail link to Dublin and in time Cork/Limerick; it doesn't need a motorway to a dormitory town with an urban population of 3,000
    Claregalway & Environs: 1,635

    Village
    Oranmore: 3,513

    Served by M6
    Athenry: 3,205

    Is actually served by The M6; you would be elongating your journey by a huge margin using N17
    Tuam & Environs: 6,885

    The census records a population of 3,000
    Claremorris: 2,595

    Small town

    Knock: 745

    Are we down to villages?
    Colloney: 892

    Another village; I'm amazed you left out the sprawling metropolisis of Charlestown and Tobbercurry
    Sligo & Environs: 19,402

    Listed in the census as 17,892; you have travelled a total of 139kms to hit another town in terms of scale.

    Bundoran: 1,964
    Ballyshannon: 2,686
    Donegal Town: 2,339
    Ballybofey-Stranorla 4,176

    Very small settlements
    Letterkenny & Environs: 17,586

    The census lists 15062 and by the time you have reached this sattelite of Derry you have travelled over 250kms from Eyre Sq.

    I note your complete absence of traffic counts.
    The current N17 has an AADT of 23K at Claregalway with a goat track at the minute

    Compare this to the M1 at Turnapin or the N7 at Naas; does it sound like less than 500 vehicle movements per hour in each direction requires a motorway?

    I would ask again; if the private sector were given an open planning consent to design and build a motorway and toll it at whatever level they saw fit would they do so?
    Interesting that the only land purchase mentioned in that article is for the M11/N25 Enniscorthy-New Ross Bypass PPP, which has tacit approval from the government for a possible start prior to 2015 anyway, as outlined in the Four-Year Plan.

    So you are happy that the exchequer s borrowing money priced in the markets at 9% for land they won't need for over four years best case scenario while land prices continue to fall. A cost of over 140% for an asset
    that is falling in value. I'm off back to review todays action in the markets where supply and demand find their own level unless the IMF intervene and delay the inevitable.


  • #21
    D'Peoples Voice
    Registered Users Posts: 1,698 ✭✭✭D'Peoples Voice


    Furet wrote: »
    THE NATIONAL Roads Authority (NRA) is continuing to buy up farmland for road schemes that no longer have Government approval due to cutbacks in the capital spending programme, an environmental group has claimed.

    Plan Better, a coalition formed by An Taisce, Friends of the Earth, Feasta and Friends of the Irish Environment, said 22,000 acres of agricultural land could be purchased over the next four years for “ghost roads”.
    the article:

    I for one am happy to hear that the NRA are buying land. These roads will be built in due course, and they certainly won't be 'ghost roads', whatever that's supposed to mean.

    hmm, Plan Better made no comments on NAMA's activities:(
    buying houses/land off developers, houses that won't be used for years to come....


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  • #22
    IngazZagni
    Registered Users Posts: 1,586 ✭✭✭IngazZagni


    Tailors Hall wrote: »



    So you are happy that the exchequer s borrowing money priced in the markets at 9% for land they won't need for over four years best case scenario while land prices continue to fall. A cost of over 140% for an asset
    that is falling in value. I'm off back to review todays action in the markets where supply and demand find their own level unless the IMF intervene and delay the inevitable.

    However they are not borrowing at the market rates are they? No, they are at a much lower agreed rate with the EU/IMF.

    Land prices are bottoming out or have bottomed out. There is no better time to buy land for development than now. A big reason to buy land now a few years in advance of actual construction is to prevent current landowners from obtaining planning permission for construction which will inflate the price for the land. You could also have a situation where they end up building on this land and forcing a complete change in the route of the road or something as simple as the owner not wishing to sell. It is only when this is done can the main sections of planning commence. It would be stupid to spend lots of money on something that may not happen but with the NRA owning the land this is guaranteed.


  • #23
    runway16
    Registered Users Posts: 304 ✭✭runway16


    Tailors Hall,

    "Galway doesnt need a motorway to a town of 3000".

    What a ridiculous statement! It isnt just to serve Tuam. It is part of a national primary route that serves traffic from the length of the west coast. It isnt just about ONE town along its route. It will not be trafficked just be vehicles going from Galway to Tuam.

    Seriously, I have never read such a stupid statement in all my life.

    It further convinces me that this is merely trollism at its finest.


  • #24
    dubhthach
    Registered Users Posts: 3,284 ✭✭✭dubhthach


    Tailors Hall wrote: »


    Another village; I'm amazed you left out the sprawling metropolisis of Charlestown and Tobbercurry

    Tubbercurry: 1,421
    Charlestown-Bellahy: 859

    You are the one who ask for a list of villages/town populations along the N17. All of this data is from the CSO and can be found here: http://www.cso.ie/census/documents/census2006_Table_7_and_12.pdf

    As I clearly stated in my previous post "Tuam and Environs" has a population of 6,885. Regarding Oranmore/Athenry my point is these towns are basically on the route of "Galway <-> Letterkenny" if the proposed M17 is in place. I don't see why you mention development land in Galway Docklands as this has nothing to do with providing national routes for the purpose of long-distance travel/freight.

    You seem to be fixated with idea that the road terminates at Tuam and will only be used for commuter traffic. Whereas in reality the route is one of main spines for all road traffic in the west of Ireland. One of major industries in the West these days are Medical devices. Alot of which are transported via Air freight through Shannon. Having Motorway as far as Tuam guarantees a quicker time for delivery/freight. This benefits the whole of the western economy.


  • #25
    Sponge Bob
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    The N17/N18 scheme is the centre of a corridor that is 'intended' to run from the 3rd to the 4th largest towns in Ireland and taking in the fifth and sixth, that would be Derry - Cork via Limerick and Galway.

    Only a mung bean infested loony like our old mate Isaac could be bothered objecting to that ( in principle)


  • #26
    w2_3vc
    Closed Accounts Posts: 91 ✭✭w2_3vc


    dubhthach wrote: »
    Tubbercurry: 1,421
    Charlestown-Bellahy: 859

    You are the one who ask for a list of villages/town populations along the N17. All of this data is from the CSO and can be found here: http://www.cso.ie/census/documents/census2006_Table_7_and_12.pdf

    As I clearly stated in my previous post "Tuam and Environs" has a population of 6,885. .

    As you probably know the census works on the parish system; if you include 10 miles in each direction from Tuam you might get to the number you are talking about; hoiwever most of this additional population will be farmers who don't commute each day to Central Galway. The population is as per the census 3,000 urban.
    dubhthach wrote: »
    Regarding Oranmore/Athenry my point is these towns are basically on the route of "Galway <-> Letterkenny" if the proposed M17 is in place. I don't see why you mention development land in Galway Docklands as this has nothing to do with providing national routes for the purpose of long-distance travel/freight..

    Your point was that Athenry was served by the N17; it is a couple of hunderd meters from the M6. Make no mistake the M17 is purely to facilitate more one off housing along its route it has an extremely limited national function; I would ask to see the hourly breakdown of this route with less than a 500 per hour average traffic load in each direction.
    dubhthach wrote: »
    You seem to be fixated with idea that the road terminates at Tuam and will only be used for commuter traffic. Whereas in reality the route is one of main spines for all road traffic in the west of Ireland. .

    I would ask to see the traffic counts for the Galway/Mayo border; I would suspect an average of c250 per hour in each direction looks more likely.

    dubhthach wrote: »
    One of major industries in the West these days are Medical devices. Alot of which are transported via Air freight through Shannon. Having Motorway as far as Tuam guarantees a quicker time for delivery/freight. This benefits the whole of the western economy.


    We all salute the global exemplar of excellence that the Galway Cardio Cluster has become; however given that most of the players are global chances are they would be multi site producers; Asia would be done in Taipei or Singapore, the Americas in the US with the Galway production being trucked to Heathrow or CDG for onward distribution. In any event Shannon is on the N18 and Dublin served by the M6.

    I ask the question if the private sector were given the opportunity to build this road and charge whatever they liked in tolls for an extended term of 100 years would they do so?

    I also see reference to the IMF fund rate. which is not fixed but tied to a basket of inmterest rates, US treasuries have moved 90bps in the last 6 weeks, German bund about 80bps; funding costs are probably rising slightly more slowly than land values are falling; there is no justification to build roads the private sector wouldn't touch or worse buying land for road schemes that will not happen for many years to come with expensive money when land values are falling.


  • #27
    Sponge Bob
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    w2_3vc wrote: »
    As you probably know the census works on the parish system;

    I know it works on the electoral district system not the parish system.

    Most of the population of Tuam is in the ( not very large) Rural district not the Urban district. The best part of 10,000 people live within 5km of the square in Tuam.
    there is no justification to build roads the private sector wouldn't touch or worse buying land for road schemes that will not happen for many years to come with expensive money when land values are falling.
    All rather vague and of dubious relevance. No NATIONAL road network has been provided ANYWHERE in the whole WORLD by the private sector ALONE, one is comparing apples and handgrenades there ....or maybe just doing a Sweetman :)

    A national road network connects points of NATIONAL importance, among them at least 3 plants in the west that EACH export the guts of €1bn worth of goods each year.

    In general you will not see this forum advocating the development of the N59 to Type 2 west of Crossmolina, there is a lot more balance and pragmatism hereabouts than you seem to appreciate....your being new to boards this is forgiveable of course.

    However on a NATIONAL scale we would generally feel that a proper Type 1 grade road is required from Cork to Galway and that this road is the greatest NATIONAL priority at this time. The Athenry Tuam stretch was coupled to the most northerly portion of this road at tender.

    You will be absolutely delighted to hear, no doubt, that an entirely separate Claregalway Bypass is also being planned. :cool:


  • #28
    w2_3vc
    Closed Accounts Posts: 91 ✭✭w2_3vc


    The census lists a population of 3,000 people which is an indisputable fact; I am happy to examine the further population on the basis of number of persons to number of square kilometers; however there is no basis to your finger in the air prediction unless you supply facts to support it.
    NATIONAL importance

    So a road with traffic counts of less than 500 average movements per hour in each direction is nationally important. You can never justify construction of a motorway with such pityful traffic loadings; this is not North Korea.
    your being new to boards this is forgiveable of course.

    It is like visiting a timewarp; the boom just got boomier eh?


  • #29
    Amtmann
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,093 ✭✭✭Amtmann


    w2_3vc and Tailors Hall (and everyone else): if you're going to have a debate on thread, it would be best to stick to the one username.


  • #30
    roosterman71
    Registered Users Posts: 5,339 ✭✭✭roosterman71


    w2_3vc wrote: »
    Make no mistake the M17 is purely to facilitate more one off housing along its route

    You obviously have no idea about motorways. Motorways aren't built to accomodate one off housing. What good is a motorway to "one-off houses" when ya may need to drive 10/20 miles to an interchange to get on? Motorways were built for various reasons - ease of movement, improved jourey times, safety, etc. If the M17 takes traffic off the N17 which is a shocking national route, that can only be a good thing. Motorways are proven to be safer which seems to be ignored in this thread so far. It has nothing to do with Tuam or its bloody population. The road may serve Tuam, but the real impact to the town will be the improved way of life for the towns inhabitants.


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  • #31
    Amtmann
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,093 ✭✭✭Amtmann


    It's worth pointing out that motorways in Ireland aren't built solely on the back of AADT.

    These are also factors:
    • Town bypass provision
    • Improved road geometries
    • Faster journey times
    • More reliable journey times
    • Increased safety by a factor of 10
    • Removal of private accesses along national routes
    • Economic stimulus

    Also, it's worth pointing out that electric cars in the future will require long straight sections of road to function efficiently rather than the current 19th-century roads with their twists, turns, tractors and traffic jams.

    I agree with SpongeBob that it is a national priority to link Cork with Galway and Derry by dual carriageway - the increased mobility that such a route would bring would stimulate greater internal trade and tourism for starters.


This discussion has been closed.
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