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My .02 cents

2

Comments

  • #32
    Seziertisch
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,180 ✭✭✭Seziertisch


    El Pr0n wrote: »
    Your direct, first-hand experience is subjective opinion, which I respect, but I don't think you should apply it across the board.

    Your subjective opinion is based on what exactly?
    El Pr0n wrote: »
    You know they got them for Christmas. Maybe I made a list of stuff I'd like as a present, with a 60s AC30 at the top of my list, and an Electro Harmonix somewhere else on the list. A Christmas present isn't representative of a musician's fullest intent

    How do you know it isn't about their relatives having money enough to afford an overdrive pedal as a gift? I don't have enough money to afford a new speaker, but fortunately my parents have enough to afford a pedal as a gift for me. I don't think any of this is obvious.

    ... The way I understood it, the lads posting on the Christmas thread were posting about stuff they had gotten themselves (for the most part)... I made no comment on rich or poor or musical intention or whatever, I was simply suggesting other stuff that would be worth looking into if someone has money to spend on guitar gear.

    And, by the way, the speakers are one of the most valuable parts of a vintage Vox amp. I wonder why that is?
    El Pr0n wrote: »
    Please don't patronise me with comments like the 'text book' one. I've learned this from reading articles and spec sheets, and comparing sounds that I've heard first hand, heard on recordings, seen in demonstration videos, etc. I don't know as much as you, but I've got a functioning knowledge enough to know what I'm talking about.

    Have you ever taken an amp/rig/set up and left everything unchanged except for the speaker? I have. Sure you have a functioning knowledge but no actual first hand experience. If you look around online I don't think you'll find anyone contradicting what I am saying, other than you that is.
    El Pr0n wrote: »
    The case with me is, I have a functional-for-my-uses clean guitar tone (on the edge of clean - when I dig it in crunches a little), with all of my pedals (filters, distortion, pitch shifting, phasing, vocoder, ring modulation and delay) out in front of the amp. This is, for my current situation, the most flexible. I gig mostly on other people's amps so I have my gear set up so that all I need is a decent clean. I haven't recorded in a few months now.

    So what you're saying is that your guitar is always plugged into your amp and the speaker is the medium through which you listen to your entire chain. Do you see how a "better" speaker "could potentially" make a difference in your situation?


  • #33
    rcaz
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,034 ✭✭✭rcaz


    Seziertisch wrote: »
    Your subjective opinion is based on what exactly?

    It's based on my guitar sounding the way I want it to sound.
    Seziertisch wrote: »
    Have you ever taken an amp/rig/set up and left everything unchanged except for the speaker? I have. Sure you have a functioning knowledge but no actual first hand experience. If you look around online I don't think you'll find anyone contradicting what I am saying, other than you that is.

    You seem to be waving all your first hand experience around a good bit. If you get fed up so quickly with people arguing your points, don't offer them up to a discussion forum.
    Seziertisch wrote: »
    So what you're saying is that your guitar is always plugged into your amp and the speaker is the medium through which you listen to your entire chain. Do you see how a "better" speaker "could potentially" make a difference in your situation?

    What would the point in replacing the speaker in my amp be if all the gigs I'll be playing for the next while will be through someone else's amp? At the moment I can't bring my amp to gigs. I can, however, bring my pedal board and laptop. In my situation, the thing I want to do most is impress my audience, and buying a new speaker wouldn't make a difference to that. My ideal pedal board and an interface would though.

    If you've got so much experience with this stuff, how would you rate the Presonus Firestudio stuff? Could I get a better 8 by 8 interface under €400?


  • #34
    Owen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,683 ✭✭✭✭Owen


    Seziertisch wrote: »
    PaintDoctor, on the other hand, doesn't use any speakers in his set up because he is happy with his digital modelling rig through his Mackie mixer. I also didn't get the impression that he uses any pedals.

    Where did you get any of that from? I said Mackie Power amp, not mixer, and I made repeated references to my cabs. And of course I own pedals - but sure don't let that you stop from making stuff up.
    I'm well qualified to give my opinion, but it doesn't matter. Even if I came in here and said I own an iPhone and a copy of amplitube, I should still have a valid opinion despite you thinking you own the thread and rejecting anyone's replies who didn't watch the youtube video you linked to.

    As I said in a previous post, chill. We're all musicians, and we're all entitled to our opinions.


  • #35
    Seziertisch
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,180 ✭✭✭Seziertisch


    El Pr0n wrote: »
    It's based on my guitar sounding the way I want it to sound.

    And safe in this knowledge, you can rule out any further possible improvements. Whatever.
    El Pr0n wrote: »
    You seem to be waving all your first hand experience around a good bit. If you get fed up so quickly with people arguing your points, don't offer them up to a discussion forum.

    You are not arguing my points from any informed stand point. It isn't enough to say that "speakers don't matter because I say so" which is essentially what you are doing. You say you are informed by stuff you have read online, soundclips you have heard etc.; yet seeing as these secondary sources are your only source, show me the source you are basing your arguments on.
    El Pr0n wrote: »
    What would the point in replacing the speaker in my amp be if all the gigs I'll be playing for the next while will be through someone else's amp? At the moment I can't bring my amp to gigs. I can, however, bring my pedal board and laptop. In my situation, the thing I want to do most is impress my audience, and buying a new speaker wouldn't make a difference to that. My ideal pedal board and an interface would though.

    Ok, using someone else's amp at a gig is just one of those things. Seeing as most people nowadays are probably going to come in contact with your music in a recorded form (and that seems to be the direction you are heading looking at the question below) a good speaker is indispensible in terms of achieving professional sounding results.
    El Pr0n wrote: »
    If you've got so much experience with this stuff, how would you rate the Presonus Firestudio stuff? Could I get a better 8 by 8 interface under €400?

    Do you need an 8x8 interface? Are you intending to record drums or full band performances at the same time? Or is it that you need 8 outputs for your live performances?

    If you are only going to be recording one or two sources at a time then a couple of inputs and outputs should be enough. If you are only going to be recording drums occasionally then a pair of stereo overheads should be enough to get the sound down. If you are intending to record drums for an actual release then depending on what you are after you will probably need a good sounding room (which you probably don't have). In which case the easist thing is to just save up the cash for a day in a studio.

    Do you have a budget for microphones? Depending on your needs a stereo interface and another/better/different/whatever mic could be a better investment.

    Otherwise, I haven't used the Presonus, but they seem to enjoy a good rep. Have a scout around online for any info regarding stability issues etc. Nothing like technical issues to kill your creative flow. The same is true for the computer you are using. There are recommended formatting guidelines regarding setting up a drive for the stuff you record separate from the programmes you are using.

    Though, if you wanted to ask this question you should have just posted it on the recording forum. My reason for answering here is that I suspect you asked the question just to expose me for the fraud that I am ;-)


  • #36
    Seziertisch
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,180 ✭✭✭Seziertisch


    PaintDoctor wrote: »
    Where did you get any of that from? I said Mackie Power amp, not mixer, and I made repeated references to my cabs. And of course I own pedals - but sure don't let that you stop from making stuff up.
    I'm well qualified to give my opinion, but it doesn't matter. Even if I came in here and said I own an iPhone and a copy of amplitube, I should still have a valid opinion despite you thinking you own the thread and rejecting anyone's replies who didn't watch the youtube video you linked to.

    As I said in a previous post, chill. We're all musicians, and we're all entitled to our opinions.

    Interesting, how would owning a copy of Amplitube on your iPhone qualify you in any way to comment on the differences between guitar speakers? Its a bit like saying that owning a copy of tetris qualifies you to comment on building walls.

    Not only do you not have no first hand experience with changing speakers but you didn't even watch the video which was the basis for the whole discussion ... yet still offered an opinion.

    But back on topic, what cabs do you own, you mentioned a Mesa boogie 1x12, what else have you got?


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  • #37
    Owen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,683 ✭✭✭✭Owen


    Seziertisch wrote: »
    Not only do you not have no first hand experience with changing speakers but you didn't even watch the video which was the basis for the whole discussion ... yet still offered an opinion.

    How did you come to the assumption that I've no experience changing speakers?


  • #38
    rcaz
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,034 ✭✭✭rcaz


    Seziertisch wrote: »
    And safe in this knowledge, you can rule out any further possible improvements. Whatever.

    Did I ever say I was ruling out further possible improvements? No. Quite the opposite, I said (a few times IIRC) that I was working through a list of stuff to get all the sounds I want, and when that list is finished and all the raw bits are there, then I'll go about the other bits (amps, speakers, cables, pickups) that will make it all sound better.
    Seziertisch wrote: »
    Though, if you wanted to ask this question you should have just posted it on the recording forum. My reason for answering here is that I suspect you asked the question just to expose me for the fraud that I am ;-)

    Haha. Wow. Chill out. I don't want to go around recording forums starting another "What interface?" thread. Thanks for answering. But you ruined everything with that sarcky bit at the end. I'm not the prick you seem to assume I am.

    You're really difficult to talk to about this stuff. It's obvious you really know your stuff, nobody's disputing that. PaintDoctor and I are offering some other arguments and you're not allowing us any space. You seem like you're getting a bit fed up with people disagreeing with you. That 'expose me for the fraud that I am' was really unreasonable, you don't even seem to want a fair conversation. You put this thread up to impart knowledge and advice on others, and when I ask a question that would help me and that you'd know the answer to, you answer it with a little jibe at the end? Why ****ing bother with any of this? You're right anyway, and you seem to know you are.


  • #39
    Owen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,683 ✭✭✭✭Owen


    El Pr0n wrote: »
    Why ****ing bother with any of this? You're right anyway, and you seem to know you are.

    +1 El Pron, OP, you should just change the thread title to 'Don't post in this thread unless you agree with everything I say'.


  • #40
    Seziertisch
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,180 ✭✭✭Seziertisch


    PaintDoctor wrote: »
    How did you come to the assumption that I've no experience changing speakers?

    Well, in post #7 specifically about this and you replied in post #8, that although you had no information contradicting what was to be heard in the clip, you decided to share with us all that the sound of your Mesa cab could be recreated by digital means. The lack of an answer to my actual question led me to assume that you had no experience.

    But seeing as you do what speaker(s) was/were in the cab and what did you change to? Was it a case of replacing a damaged speaker or was a case of being unhappy with the sound?


  • #41
    Owen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,683 ✭✭✭✭Owen


    [Deleting all this as it's all a bit shouty, and pointless.]


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  • #42
    Seziertisch
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,180 ✭✭✭Seziertisch


    El Pr0n wrote: »
    Did I ever say I was ruling out further possible improvements? No. Quite the opposite, I said (a few times IIRC) that I was working through a list of stuff to get all the sounds I want, and when that list is finished and all the raw bits are there, then I'll go about the other bits (amps, speakers, cables, pickups) that will make it all sound better.
    El Pr0n wrote: »
    Your .02 cents (2/10000ths of a Euro?) makes sense for overdrives and distortions and fuzzes, compressors and equalisers... But what if someone wants a delay or a Whammy pedal, or (in my case) a vocoder?

    Yes, a speaker is a good investment in tone, but would you recommend a good speaker instead of the RC-20 that someone got, if they're looking for a looper? You wouldn't.

    As for my 2 cents, I think a lot of people are WAY too preoccupied with "good tone" and don't spend nearly enough time thinking about interesting sounds. I'm pretty sure if you let a tone head play with my setup (MIM Telecaster with a Seymore Duncan Hotrails bridge pup into 10+ pedals, with buffers of all sorts in a lot of the pedals and the odd bout of power supply troubles, into a Marshall AVT100 with stock speaker), they'd HATE it. But I love it, 'cause it doesn't sound exactly like anyone else's.

    After a re-read, a lot of that post sounded very sarcky. Didn't mean it that way!

    Bearing in my that I made it clear that I wasn't saying that speakers were a substitute for certain pedals, but rather a better investment than duplicates of pedal types you already have (for those that have the money), why exactly have you being arguing me with all along?
    El Pr0n wrote: »
    Haha. Wow. Chill out. I don't want to go around recording forums starting another "What interface?" thread. Thanks for answering. But you ruined everything with that sarcky bit at the end. I'm not the prick you seem to assume I am.

    You're really difficult to talk to about this stuff. It's obvious you really know your stuff, nobody's disputing that. PaintDoctor and I are offering some other arguments and you're not allowing us any space. You seem like you're getting a bit fed up with people disagreeing with you. That 'expose me for the fraud that I am' was really unreasonable, you don't even seem to want a fair conversation. You put this thread up to impart knowledge and advice on others, and when I ask a question that would help me and that you'd know the answer to, you answer it with a little jibe at the end? Why ****ing bother with any of this? You're right anyway, and you seem to know you are.
    Seziertisch wrote: »
    Though, if you wanted to ask this question you should have just posted it on the recording forum. My reason for answering here is that I suspect you asked the question just to expose me for the fraud that I am ;-)

    Have another read of my post, note the ;-) at the end. Did you miss it on the first reading?


  • #43
    Seziertisch
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,180 ✭✭✭Seziertisch


    PaintDoctor wrote: »
    I'm sure I don't have nearly as much experience as you, but sure I'll give it a go.

    I currently own around 15 guitars, one Bass, a pretty expensive Violin, a nice piano, an Ibanez Promethean Bass Combo, a Peavey Bandit Guitar Combo, a beautiful vintage Dynacord 16 channel mixing desk, about 1500 Euros worth of pedals, plenty of rack gear, loads of MIDI gear including a gorgeous Roland 1st gen rack Guitar Synth, my Mesa Boogie 1x12, and my current Ibanez 4x12 which was part of an 8x12 stack I originally toured with. I've previously owned a few PA's, the last of which was a Dynacord P5 rig. I also have a background in Electronic Engineering, and pro in car audio. I've hand built, and hand tuned/ported enclosures for my own vehicles that have been competition winners. My current vehicles both have Harman Kardon sound systems I've extensively modified, and augmented. I own decibel meters, oscilloscopes, and have no problem tearing a guitar amplifier apart to find what's wrong with it. My sustainiac install into my Ibanez Jem is used as a reference for the company who manufactured it to show to potential customers thinking of carrying out the work.

    I've swapped speakers in my cars, in customer cars, in PA systems I've owned, in PA's belonging to venues. I've replaced poor quality speakers in combo amps for friends, and for myself. I've also had a right good old fiddle around with the drivers in my home recording studio setup for ****s and giggles.

    I've been in studios plenty of times, and I've been in the Irish charts for one of the songs I recorded on - not in the top 40, but it was a charity single with celebrities, and it did well in raising funds for the particular charity.

    I'm an audiophile. I'm the type of person who'll sit into a car and listen for crackling in tweeters no one else can hear. I'll listen to a live band and want to be at the desk to sort out the over the top extremely pathetic details that only I'm interested in.

    In case you hadn't guessed, I can probably tell you what the speaker is made from. Unlike you though, I don't like bragging (Not the purpose of this reply), or putting people down because I think they don't know as much as me. I'm exactly the opposite, everyone has to start somewhere. I love when people come in here with the mundane questions, or they try to solder up their own leads for the first time and hit problems. I love when people ask questions about speakers, about effects, about setting up their instruments - not because I can offer an opinion, but because I might open up the thread and learn something new that I've never come across before. That's exciting for me.

    It's about having an open mind, and it's about being mannerly and polite. Try it, you'd be surprised how much more you'll get back in return for the little you have to give in lieu.

    I presumed that you understood that I meant speakers in guitar amps. What guitar amp speakers have you actually changed and what was the difference?


  • #44
    rcaz
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,034 ✭✭✭rcaz


    Seziertisch wrote: »
    Bearing in my that I made it clear that I wasn't saying that speakers were a substitute for certain pedals, but rather a better investment than duplicates of pedal types you already have (for those that have the money), why exactly have you being arguing me with all along?

    I didn't like the way you'd started a thread to tell everyone what you thought was the right way. If we all did that Boards would crash. I also didn't like you started this thread when your 'right way' (like everyone else's) is completely subjective (how exactly can one speaker be 'better' than another?). I didn't like how, everytime someone offered a counter-opinion you resorted to an "I know more than you" argument (that doesn't attack points in an argument, that attacks the person arguing, which isn't an argument).

    Finally, I didn't agree with the way you were making your points. Such as;
    Seziertisch wrote: »
    Have another read of my post, note the ;-) at the end. Did you miss it on the first reading?

    You can't expect me to pick up sarcasm read from a text and then have a go at me like that when I don't get it. A ';-)' doesn't denote sarcasm or negate a completely unnecessary, rude comment. And you can't even correct a misunderstand like that without an arrogant remark at the end. If you were really being so innocent with that last bit, wink or not, you wouldn't have put it in there.


  • #45
    Owen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,683 ✭✭✭✭Owen


    You don't need to quote my whole post. It hurts the eyes.

    Why specifically guitar amps? Is that just a rule you've created? Course, if you'd read my post, yes, you'd see that I have changed guitar combo speakers too - along with car speakers in very high end installs, and in PA systems too. And if you'd read the wording, you'd also see that there was an improvement. But did we need an improvement in the beginning?

    Course, this brings us right around back full circle to the start of the thread where you suggested people should buy better speakers before buying pedals - nearly bordering on saying people were being foolish for buying pedals at all. Myself, and El Pron then suggested to you, that there's little point in doing that these days as with modern, powerful multi effects setups, you can faithfully re-create speakers for recording purposes. Plus, for some people, having funky pedals is far more enjoyable than buying a better speaker for your amp.

    The rig I use live and in studio is a perfect example of it. I can chose any amp from about the last 30 years, any cab with any speaker configuration, I can choose to use that direct sound, or I can literally choose from 5 different mic types to mic it with, and I can then choose the mic position. All digitally reproduced - not simulated - and all pretty epic. My 5150 amp/cab simulation in my rig is nearly identical to a friend's actual 5150 (Well, he's sold it now, but you get the point). I was genuinely expecting my rack to be pants, but we both kinda looked at each other thinking "Okaaaaay, this shouldn't be happening". Then I tried it with a MB Rectifier, and that was pretty similar too. I've tried it with a JC-120 - same thing. Some day when I'm rolling around in money using 50 euro notes to wipe my arse, I'll try out the rest with real amps for comparisson.

    Sorry to burst your bubble Mr Angry man, but not everyone shares your philosophy - you should try to get over it, and get on with the thread rather than dissecting everyone's posts to bits and getting pissed off that people aren't doing what you say. It'd be a pretty cool thread if you did.


  • #46
    rcaz
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,034 ✭✭✭rcaz


    PaintDoctor wrote: »
    Plus, for some people, having funky pedals is far more enjoyable than buying a better speaker for your amp.

    This is a great point, kinda under-noted.

    What's wrong with deciding 5 fuzz pedals would be better for someone's needs than 2 fuzzes and a new speaker?


  • #47
    Seziertisch
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,180 ✭✭✭Seziertisch


    El Pr0n wrote: »
    I didn't like the way you'd started a thread to tell everyone what you thought was the right way. If we all did that Boards would crash. I also didn't like you started this thread when your 'right way' (like everyone else's) is completely subjective (how exactly can one speaker be 'better' than another?). I didn't like how, everytime someone offered a counter-opinion you resorted to an "I know more than you" argument (that doesn't attack points in an argument, that attacks the person arguing, which isn't an argument).

    So this has purely being an academic exercise for you. Based on principle. As to how one speaker can be better than another, its the same way that one amp be better than another. An example of a better amp would be the Vox AC30 you mentioned earlier. As for attacking points in your argument, please sum up what is wrong about what I am saying. Provide the source that contradicts what I am saying. It obviously isn't your own personal experience, so what and where is it?

    And just for reference here is my first post
    Seziertisch wrote: »
    Just looking at the what you got for Christmas thread, I was struck by a couple of posters really stocking up on pedals. This isn't a criticism or comment on any of the individual posters on the Christmas thread (I don't know you personally and haven't heard any of your music, don't know if you are professionals/hobbyists), just a comment on the whole pedal thing from someone who has quite a few.Personally, I have found a good speaker to be a far better investment in tone than any pedal.

    And in terms of getting the desired performance from a pedal, a good speaker is crucial. There is a thread discussing fuzz pedals at the moment in which a couple of posters complain about the Zvex Fuzz Factory being too bright/harsh. This has been my experience as well on occasion depending on the speaker I am using. As the title says, just my two cents.

    I recently came across this clip and I think it illustrates the potential difference a speaker can make

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JPPMiZeYMVo

    And here is your first post
    El Pr0n wrote: »
    Your .02 cents (2/10000ths of a Euro?) makes sense for overdrives and distortions and fuzzes, compressors and equalisers... But what if someone wants a delay or a Whammy pedal, or (in my case) a vocoder?

    Yes, a speaker is a good investment in tone, but would you recommend a good speaker instead of the RC-20 that someone got, if they're looking for a looper? You wouldn't.

    As for my 2 cents, I think a lot of people are WAY too preoccupied with "good tone" and don't spend nearly enough time thinking about interesting sounds. I'm pretty sure if you let a tone head play with my setup (MIM Telecaster with a Seymore Duncan Hotrails bridge pup into 10+ pedals, with buffers of all sorts in a lot of the pedals and the odd bout of power supply troubles, into a Marshall AVT100 with stock speaker), they'd HATE it. But I love it, 'cause it doesn't sound exactly like anyone else's.

    After a re-read, a lot of that post sounded very sarcky. Didn't mean it that way!

    Now which one of us has the attitude problem?
    El Pr0n wrote: »
    Finally, I didn't agree with the way you were making your points. Such as;

    You can't expect me to pick up sarcasm read from a text and then have a go at me like that when I don't get it. A ';-)' doesn't denote sarcasm or negate a completely unnecessary, rude comment. And you can't even correct a misunderstand like that without an arrogant remark at the end. If you were really being so innocent with that last bit, wink or not, you wouldn't have put it in there.
    El Pr0n wrote: »
    If you've got so much experience with this stuff, how would you rate the Presonus Firestudio stuff? Could I get a better 8 by 8 interface under €400?

    Excuse me for being sceptical about your motivations.


  • #48
    Seziertisch
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,180 ✭✭✭Seziertisch


    PaintDoctor wrote: »
    You don't need to quote my whole post. It hurts the eyes.

    I just felt you had gone to such unnecessary effort that you should be rewarded ;-)
    PaintDoctor wrote: »
    Why specifically guitar amps? Is that just a rule you've created?

    No, I just figured that since this was the instruments thread, we should try and keep it relevant.
    PaintDoctor wrote: »
    Course, if you'd read my post, yes, you'd see that I have changed guitar combo speakers too - along with car speakers in very high end installs, and in PA systems too. And if you'd read the wording, you'd also see that there was an improvement. But did we need an improvement in the beginning?

    So you've changed unnamed speakers in unnamed guitar amps and heard an unspecified improvement. Care to elaborate?
    PaintDoctor wrote: »
    Course, this brings us right around back full circle to the start of the thread where you suggested people should buy better speakers before buying pedals - nearly bordering on saying people were being foolish for buying pedals at all.

    No I didn't
    Seziertisch wrote: »
    Just looking at the what you got for Christmas thread, I was struck by a couple of posters really stocking up on pedals. This isn't a criticism or comment on any of the individual posters on the Christmas thread (I don't know you personally and haven't heard any of your music, don't know if you are professionals/hobbyists), just a comment on the whole pedal thing from someone who has quite a few.Personally, I have found a good speaker to be a far better investment in tone than any pedal.

    And in terms of getting the desired performance from a pedal, a good speaker is crucial. There is a thread discussing fuzz pedals at the moment in which a couple of posters complain about the Zvex Fuzz Factory being too bright/harsh. This has been my experience as well on occasion depending on the speaker I am using. As the title says, just my two cents.

    I recently came across this clip and I think it illustrates the potential difference a speaker can make

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JPPMiZeYMVo


    Seziertisch wrote: »
    Myself, and El Pron then suggested to you, that there's little point in doing that these days as with modern, powerful multi effects setups, you can faithfully re-create speakers for recording purposes. Plus, for some people, having funky pedals is far more enjoyable than buying a better speaker for your amp.

    El Pron never said that you can re-create speakers for recording purposes. I'm not arguing with you about funky pedals, ultimately I own quite a few myself.
    PaintDoctor wrote: »
    The rig I use live and in studio is a perfect example of it. I can chose any amp from about the last 30 years, any cab with any speaker configuration, I can choose to use that direct sound, or I can literally choose from 5 different mic types to mic it with, and I can then choose the mic position. All digitally reproduced - not simulated - and all pretty epic. My 5150 amp/cab simulation in my rig is nearly identical to a friend's actual 5150 (Well, he's sold it now, but you get the point). I was genuinely expecting my rack to be pants, but we both kinda looked at each other thinking "Okaaaaay, this shouldn't be happening". Then I tried it with a MB Rectifier, and that was pretty similar too. I've tried it with a JC-120 - same thing. Some day when I'm rolling around in money using 50 euro notes to wipe my arse, I'll try out the rest with real amps for comparisson.

    What is it that you are using? Just out of interest. I would consider the potential of digital amp modelling not to be entirely relevant to a discussion of what difference an actual speaker can make in an actual amp. Though I presume that there are different speaker simulations available in your modelling software, what is your take on those and the differences between them?
    PaintDoctor wrote: »
    Sorry to burst your bubble Mr Angry man, but not everyone shares your philosophy - you should try to get over it, and get on with the thread rather than dissecting everyone's posts to bits and getting pissed off that people aren't doing what you say. It'd be a pretty cool thread if you did.

    I'm not angry, just kind of perplexed at a guy who says that owning amplitube for his iphone would qualify him to comment on the difference that a speaker makes in an amp.


  • #49
    rcaz
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,034 ✭✭✭rcaz


    Seziertisch wrote: »
    Now which one of us has the attitude problem?

    Did you not read the last bit?
    El Pr0n wrote:
    After a re-read, a lot of that post sounded very sarcky. Didn't mean it that way!


  • #50
    Seziertisch
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,180 ✭✭✭Seziertisch


    El Pr0n wrote: »
    Did you not read the last bit?

    Yeah, I did, but you still went ahead and posted it anyway.

    But go on, I'm still waiting to for you to name the source(s) that disprove/negate what I am saying about the importance of speakers.

    Not only do I have my own experience to draw on, but I provided a youtube clip which demonstrates fairly clearly what I am on about. For me to be convinced otherwise you need to provide me with something. You accuse me of arguing from authority (though I thought the youtube clip was also pretty illustrative), what is the basis of your argument?


  • #51
    quicklickpaddy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 888 ✭✭✭quicklickpaddy


    IBTL...


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  • #52
    Seziertisch
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,180 ✭✭✭Seziertisch


    quicklickpaddy wrote: »
    IBTL...


    If you roll back to post #21, Paddy, you'll find I asked you a few questions. Completely rational, just basic stuff, like providing some foundation for the points you were making.


  • #53
    quicklickpaddy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 888 ✭✭✭quicklickpaddy


    Yeah I saw where things were going and took a step back. It's not a debate anymore... It's just taking shots at each other - not something I wanna get drawn into!


  • #54
    rcaz
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,034 ✭✭✭rcaz


    Seziertisch wrote: »
    But go on, I'm still waiting to for you to name the source(s) that disprove/negate what I am saying about the importance of speakers.

    Not only do I have my own experience to draw on, but I provided a youtube clip which demonstrates fairly clearly what I am on about. For me to be convinced otherwise you need to provide me with something. You accuse me of arguing from authority (though I thought the youtube clip was also pretty illustrative), what is the basis of your argument?

    Gave the video a few more listens there. I guess my favourite sound from it is the Celestion Vintage 30. But listening to that video moving between all the different speakers could sound very similar to listening to someone moving between different filter settings on a ProCo RAT or something.

    The basis of my argument is my ears. I can hear all those tonal differences, the same way I can hear the differences in the same pedal set differently, different pickups in a guitar, different clipping diodes in an overdrive pedal, whatever. Everything in the whole signal chain is a factor in a sound. What about the mic, interface, recorder, everything else they used to record the audio for that video? What about the fact that the riff was played a new time for every set up rather than being recorded and re-amped?

    This thread was started to point out that different speakers sound different? No way.


  • #55
    -Chris-
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,035 ✭✭✭✭-Chris-


    This whole thread is patronising and condescending and I'm sorry I posted in it or read it.

    Boo-urns.


  • #56
    punchdrunk
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,355 ✭✭✭punchdrunk


    my major issue with speaker tests is like this one is how broken in are the speakers?

    my celestion Golds were quite harsh out of the box,but they have mellowed beautifully without sounding muddy they sound quite different now

    I actually found that even when broken in,V 30's sound pretty harsh but again that's pretty subjective to the amp they are in
    in my Orange AD30 they were way too harsh/bright and it couldn't be EQ'ed out


  • #57
    Seziertisch
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,180 ✭✭✭Seziertisch


    -Chris- wrote: »
    This whole thread is patronising and condescending and I'm sorry I posted in it or read it.

    Boo-urns.

    I'm sorry about that, Chris, I wasn't calling you out by mentioning your post in the other thread, I was just taking it as an example.

    I had seen numerous discussions on other forums regarding the Fuzz Factory with some guys saying it was way too bright and other guys saying that it was fine. Having heard the difference that a speaker change made to my own perception of the brightness of that pedal, I said I'd speak up.

    I hope you do decide to have a go at that mod, though.


  • #58
    Owen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,683 ✭✭✭✭Owen


    God even I've lost interest in this. *yawn*

    Goes to find happier threads about musicians enjoying music.


  • #59
    Malice
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,075 ✭✭✭✭Malice


    Mod Note: Reporting posts that you feel go against the charter are far more useful to moderators of forums than posting stuff like:
    quicklickpaddy wrote:
    IBTL...
    quicklickpaddy wrote: »
    It's not a debate anymore... It's just taking shots at each other - not something I wanna get drawn into!

    Now, having read through the thread I don't think anyone has broken any rules. This thread is getting a little heated certainly but no one has overstepped the boundaries.

    So, in conclusion, please report posts that you feel require moderator attention. Thank you!
    Seziertisch wrote:
    I just felt you had gone to such unnecessary effort that you should be rewarded ;-)
    Anyone reading the thread has to scroll through his long post twice because you decided to quote the entire thing. There's no need to quote it for his benefit - he wrote it and there's no need to quote it for anyone reading the thread because it's already there.


  • #60
    Seziertisch
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,180 ✭✭✭Seziertisch


    El Pr0n wrote: »
    Gave the video a few more listens there. I guess my favourite sound from it is the Celestion Vintage 30. But listening to that video moving between all the different speakers could sound very similar to listening to someone moving between different filter settings on a ProCo RAT or something.

    The filter on the rat is a hi cut, the difference I am hearing in the speakers is not just a difference in the amount of high end, the bass and midrange response is quite different on all of them (to my ears at least)
    El Pr0n wrote: »
    The basis of my argument is my ears. I can hear all those tonal differences, the same way I can hear the differences in the same pedal set differently, different pickups in a guitar, different clipping diodes in an overdrive pedal, whatever. Everything in the whole signal chain is a factor in a sound. What about the mic, interface, recorder, everything else they used to record the audio for that video? What about the fact that the riff was played a new time for every set up rather than being recorded and re-amped?

    As far as I can tell the idea of the test was that the mics and everything else be in the same position, with the speaker and the playing the only variables. From a scientific point of view, the test was flawed in that sense that the speaker wasn't the only variable.

    As to why it wasn't reamped, my guess is because converting and reconverting a guitar signal ultimately results in the loss of presence (not that it sounds bad, just kind of different/not quite like a straight guitar into an amp) and because the video is ultimately from an amp company, they probably figured that getting their amp to sound its best was also pretty important. You could argue, I suppose, that the differences we are hearing could just as easily be down to the player as the speakers and if that is your take on it there is nothing I can do to convince you otherwise. At least I have never heard anyone capable of coaxing so much difference out of their playing.
    El Pr0n wrote: »
    This thread was started to point out that different speakers sound different? No way.

    Yeah, I said so in the first post. Your contention was that this was only relevant for more traditional players but not for effect oriented players. This hasn't been my experience, as someone who uses a fair share of effects.

    In my experience, in a recording situation, a lot of times more outlandish effects chains (particularly anything filter based) tend to produce very dynamic sounds or sounds with lots of particular frequencies which don't show up too often in more general run of the mill guitar tones. A lot of times these are the body of the sound. I have found that with a less than optimal guitar speaker, these experimental sounds can be extremely problematic in a mix. They jump out and not in a good way, try and eq them and all of a sudden the balls have been cut off your cool sound. With a better/more suitable speaker they sit better straight off, need less processing and don't suffer from "this sounds great but I can't make it work the way I want to".

    As to what could work for you, El Pron, a Greenback style speaker could be good, smooth, strong midrange but kind of gritty. Nels Cline uses an old Marshall cab with greenbacks for the live stuff with Wilco at least. I think you can hear kind of the same qualities in J Mascis's and Jimi Hendrix's sounds. Obviously they are all using Marshall amps and all of the signals you are hearing on recordings have been processed, but seeing as you have a Marshall yourself it could work.

    Otherwise, just listen to the difference between Slash's tone and Billy Corgan's (circa Siamese Dream). Slash is a Vintage 30 user, that midrange honk is really part of his sound, whereas most of the guitars on Siamese Dream are through a greenback cab. Both Slash and Billy play(ed) modded JCM800s. Even though they are playing (sort of) the same amp, I think Billy's tone is closer to the 3 guitarists mentioned above than to Slash's. That said Billy and the 3 guys above are all pretty heavy effects users, so that is obviously also a factor. The greenback seems to be a popular choice for those kinds of sounds. I have seen them go for not a lot of cash on adverts and even new they are definitely more affordable than a lot of others out there.


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  • #61
    Seziertisch
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,180 ✭✭✭Seziertisch


    PaintDoctor wrote: »
    God even I've lost interest in this. *yawn*

    Goes to find happier threads about musicians enjoying music.

    You complain that I am not giving you a chance to express your opinion, yet when I ask you to go beyond vague details about your experiences with guitar speakers you go for the passive aggressive opt out clause.


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