My .02 cents

Seziertisch

Just looking at the what you got for Christmas thread, I was struck by a couple of posters really stocking up on pedals. This isn't a criticism or comment on any of the individual posters on the Christmas thread (I don't know you personally and haven't heard any of your music, don't know if you are professionals/hobbyists), just a comment on the whole pedal thing from someone who has quite a few.Personally, I have found a good speaker to be a far better investment in tone than any pedal.

And in terms of getting the desired performance from a pedal, a good speaker is crucial. There is a thread discussing fuzz pedals at the moment in which a couple of posters complain about the Zvex Fuzz Factory being too bright/harsh. This has been my experience as well on occasion depending on the speaker I am using. As the title says, just my two cents.

I recently came across this clip and I think it illustrates the potential difference a speaker can make

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JPPMiZeYMVo

rcaz

Your .02 cents (2/10000ths of a Euro?) makes sense for overdrives and distortions and fuzzes, compressors and equalisers... But what if someone wants a delay or a Whammy pedal, or (in my case) a vocoder?

Yes, a speaker is a good investment in tone, but would you recommend a good speaker instead of the RC-20 that someone got, if they're looking for a looper? You wouldn't.

As for my 2 cents, I think a lot of people are WAY too preoccupied with "good tone" and don't spend nearly enough time thinking about interesting sounds. I'm pretty sure if you let a tone head play with my setup (MIM Telecaster with a Seymore Duncan Hotrails bridge pup into 10+ pedals, with buffers of all sorts in a lot of the pedals and the odd bout of power supply troubles, into a Marshall AVT100 with stock speaker), they'd HATE it. But I love it, 'cause it doesn't sound exactly like anyone else's.

After a re-read, a lot of that post sounded very sarcky. Didn't mean it that way!

Seziertisch

El Pr0n wrote: »

Your .02 cents (2/10000ths of a Euro?) makes sense for overdrives and distortions and fuzzes, compressors and equalisers... But what if someone wants a delay or a Whammy pedal, or (in my case) a vocoder?

Yes, a speaker is a good investment in tone, but would you recommend a good speaker instead of the RC-20 that someone got, if they're looking for a looper? You wouldn't.

As for my 2 cents, I think a lot of people are WAY too preoccupied with "good tone" and don't spend nearly enough time thinking about interesting sounds. I'm pretty sure if you let a tone head play with my setup (MIM Telecaster with a Seymore Duncan Hotrails bridge pup into 10+ pedals, with buffers of all sorts in a lot of the pedals and the odd bout of power supply troubles, into a Marshall AVT100 with stock speaker), they'd HATE it. But I love it, 'cause it doesn't sound exactly like anyone else's.

After a re-read, a lot of that post sounded very sarcky. Didn't mean it that way!

I was referring to the guys "stocking up on pedals". I would have thought that it would have been fairly obvious that you weren't being talked about (you having only gotten one pedal)

Otherwise, I think there is a fair chance that you would "love it" even more going through a good speaker.

Owen

Everyone's different, you just like simple guitar tones made from Amps, but others like things like Synths, Vocorders, Octave effects, Flangers, Phasers, Rotary Effects, Tremelos, etc.

There's always been 2 arguments to this. The purists with a Guitar, an Amp, and maybe a few effects like a WahWah and Chorus/Delay, and then there's the other groups. The ones like me who want a USB controlled rig I can play with on my laptop. I like being able to make quirky sounds and figure out what bands like DT and Muse do to their raw guitar signal.

It doesn't mean I'm a better player than you, or you're a better player than me. It means we both play guitar and that's a good thing. It means we have different tastes and that's a good thing too because the world'd be very very boring if we all played the same guitar, the same amp, and the same songs*.

*With the exception of the freak show that is Irish Country and Western. Death to IC&W!!

Seziertisch

PaintDoctor wrote: »

Everyone's different, you just like simple guitar tones made from Amps, but others like things like Synths, Vocorders, Octave effects, Flangers, Phasers, Rotary Effects, Tremelos, etc.

There's always been 2 arguments to this. The purists with a Guitar, an Amp, and maybe a few effects like a WahWah and Chorus/Delay, and then there's the other groups. The ones like me who want a USB controlled rig I can play with on my laptop. I like being able to make quirky sounds and figure out what bands like DT and Muse do to their raw guitar signal.

It doesn't mean I'm a better player than you, or you're a better player than me. It means we both play guitar and that's a good thing. It means we have different tastes and that's a good thing too because the world'd be very very boring if we all played the same guitar, the same amp, and the same songs*.

*With the exception of the freak show that is Irish Country and Western. Death to IC&W!!

PaintDoctor, I consider a good speaker to be independent of the approach that someone takes to their instrument. I have a couple of grands worth of pedals, ranging from basic overdrive to a number of synth filters and octave effects. I can say without a shadow of a doubt that all of those pedals sound better going through a good speaker.

Owen

Seziertisch wrote: »

PaintDoctor, I consider a good speaker to be independent of the approach that someone takes to their instrument. I have a couple of grands worth of pedals, ranging from basic overdrive to a number of synth filters and octave effects. I can say without a shadow of a doubt that all of those pedals sound better going through a good speaker.

Yes, but that's your opinion. I've a couple of grand worth of equipment too. I've Mesa Boogie cabs, Mackie Poweramps, guitars worth a couple of k each, and I can pretty faithfully replicate the sound of the MB Cab by going directly into my PA using Cab Simulation.

Like it or not, Music Technology is getting pretty impressive. We're at the tipping point now where traditional Amps are becoming obsolete. I'm not talking about replacing amps with laptops (Even though I'm sure that'll happen in the next 10 years) - but I am talking about the holy grail of speakers and cabs and tube amps becoming redundant as digital modelling allows us to recreate them faithfully.

There'll still be people like us who want the proper item though, but that doesn't make us better, or more aware than those who want do reduce gear on stage, or record using digitally simulated amps.

Seziertisch

PaintDoctor wrote: »

Yes, but that's your opinion. I've a couple of grand worth of equipment too. I've Mesa Boogie cabs, Mackie Poweramps, guitars worth a couple of k each, and I can pretty faithfully replicate the sound of the MB Cab by going directly into my PA using Cab Simulation.

Like it or not, Music Technology is getting pretty impressive. We're at the tipping point now where traditional Amps are becoming obsolete. I'm not talking about replacing amps with laptops (Even though I'm sure that'll happen in the next 10 years) - but I am talking about the holy grail of speakers and cabs and tube amps becoming redundant as digital modelling allows us to recreate them faithfully.

There'll still be people like us who want the proper item though, but that doesn't make us better, or more aware than those who want do reduce gear on stage, or record using digitally simulated amps.

Since when did this turn into a discussion of whether digital modelling will replace real amps, or going on your first post, a discussion on whether a traditional or experimental approach to guitar is more valid?

I think I was pretty clear that I was suggesting that if someone has the funds they should consider possibly getting a good speaker (presuming they don't have one) over another pedal. That is all.

Has it been your experience with your Mesa cabs that the speaker in there has made no difference to the sound (thus contradicting what I think is clearly audible in the clip)?

I also don't see the relevance of you telling us that you have a Mackie poweramp for your PA and guitars worth a couple of K each. I mentioned the value of my pedal collection to illustrate that you were wrong in your assertion that I

PaintDoctor wrote: »

just like simple guitar tones made from Amps, but others like things like Synths, Vocorders, Octave effects, Flangers, Phasers, Rotary Effects, Tremelos, etc.

I didn't put a figure on it as a "my d**k is bigger than yours" challenge to anyone.

Owen

Seziertisch wrote: »

Since when did this turn into a discussion of whether digital modelling will replace real amps, or going on your first post, a discussion on whether a traditional or experimental approach to guitar is more valid?

I'm just having a chat. Chill.

I think I was pretty clear that I was suggesting that if someone has the funds they should consider possibly getting a good speaker (presuming they don't have one) over another pedal. That is all.

And I was pretty clear in suggesting that for some people playing around with effects is more important.

Has it been your experience with your Mesa cabs that the speaker in there has made no difference to the sound (thus contradicting what I think is clearly audible in the clip)?

Didn't say anything of the sort. I did say that the sound in my Mesa Cab can be faithfully reproduced by digital means IMHO, meaning that sometimes rather than blowing 1k on a cab, which will always just be a cab, you could blow 1k on a killer effects rig which will give you the same sound, plus open the door to a myriad of other sounds too.

But then again, having pretty cabs is fun too.

Seziertisch

PaintDoctor wrote: »

I'm just having a chat. Chill.

That's alright, but if you want to chat about those completely different subjects you should just start a thread about them.

PaintDoctor wrote: »

And I was pretty clear in suggesting that for some people playing around with effects is more important.

That's fine, but it is a completely separate discussion, and not particularly relevant in this case.

PaintDoctor wrote: »

Didn't say anything of the sort. I did say that the sound in my Mesa Cab can be faithfully reproduced by digital means IMHO, meaning that sometimes rather than blowing 1k on a cab, which will always just be a cab, you could blow 1k on a killer effects rig which will give you the same sound, plus open the door to a myriad of other sounds too.

But then again, having pretty cabs is fun too.

The digital modelling of effects has been around a lot longer than the digital modelling of amps, why not go for an all digital rig? Then again, this discussion would also be deserving of its own thread.

Owen

Eh ... if you'd like to control the flow of conversation go start your own forum buddy

Seziertisch

PaintDoctor wrote: »

Eh ... if you'd like to control the flow of conversation go start your own forum buddy

The charter for this forum contains the following

Unfortuately, the number of posters going off topic has increased. Because of this, anyone going off topic will be banned.

I don't need my own forum, I just think it would be nice if people could respect the rules for this one.

Owen

You're not a mod though, and in MY opinion, I am on topic. I'm discussing what you're discussing. You wanted to know why people buy effects and not speakers, and that's exactly what I'm chatting to you about. If you have a problem with my genuine interest in this thread, and contributing positvely to it, then report my posts, but don't back seat mod.

punchdrunk

I've got some nice guitars,I've got some nice amps,and quite rightly so I've got some nice pedals too

when I started out I didn't have alot of money,so spending 100 pounds on a pedal had a far more dramatic effect on my sound than trying to make a 100 pound improvement in the amp I was using
over time I learned a bit about speakers/pickups and the impact they also have
I've now reached the point where I have Guitars & Amps I love,and they are the foundation of my sound,but pedals are more than just the "spice" and I'd hate not to have them
I wouldn't be happy choosing which of the three has the biggest impact on my sound,or which one I could sacrifice if I had to cut corners

Owen

My other problem is that I Line Out/DI to the desk so often that my amp's are generally used for low volume backline. The audience rarely hears them, and the speakers aren't miked up, so unfortunately for my gigs, even a cheap and nasty cab would actually do. Hence my retirement of my MB 1x12 Cab

Seziertisch

punchdrunk wrote: »

I've got some nice guitars,I've got some nice amps,and quite rightly so I've got some nice pedals too

when I started out I didn't have alot of money,so spending 100 pounds on a pedal had a far more dramatic effect on my sound than trying to make a 100 pound improvement in the amp I was using
over time I learned a bit about speakers/pickups and the impact they also have
I've now reached the point where I have Guitars & Amps I love,and they are the foundation of my sound,but pedals are more than just the "spice" and I'd hate not to have them
I wouldn't be happy choosing which of the three has the biggest impact on my sound,or which one I could sacrifice if I had to cut corners

Completely agree with you on that one (in bold). I'm not suggesting picking one over another, I just think that speakers lack the "sexy" factor of pedals and get neglected by a lot of players (myself included in the past) even though as you say they are part of the foundation of the sound.

PaulieBoy

Is it not about what sound you want, and how you get it is down to your combination of pedals and speakers. That then defines "your" sound.
Could be lots of pedals and crappy speaker works for your sound, else quality speaker and no - or a minimum number - of pedals.
At the end of the day freedom of choice takes over and you do what you wanna do :-)
Personally I ain't a fan of pedals -for the bass- but that's just me.

Glassheart

Seziertisch wrote: »

Just looking at the what you got for Christmas thread, I was struck by a couple of posters really stocking up on pedals. This isn't a criticism or comment on any of the individual posters on the Christmas thread (I don't know you personally and haven't heard any of your music, don't know if you are professionals/hobbyists), just a comment on the whole pedal thing from someone who has quite a few.Personally, I have found a good speaker to be a far better investment in tone than any pedal.

And in terms of getting the desired performance from a pedal, a good speaker is crucial. There is a thread discussing fuzz pedals at the moment in which a couple of posters complain about the Zvex Fuzz Factory being too bright/harsh. This has been my experience as well on occasion depending on the speaker I am using. As the title says, just my two cents.

I recently came across this clip and I think it illustrates the potential difference a speaker can make

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JPPMiZeYMVo

Are you coming from the position that stock speakers simply aren't up to the task?

I've got a 4x10 59' Bassman and as far as i know the most popular upgrade is to the Jensens that i already have in there.
That amp has taken every pedal i've ever owned really well so i would be reluctant to touch it.

quicklickpaddy

Ah look, everyones got blinkers on here.

Obviously a new speaker would change the tone - as would a new guitar. Whether it improves is entirely subjective. Even with that video nobody here could pick out which is the best speaker where everyone might have their preferences. Stock may be just dandy for most people and it's not something you can really try before you buy. You're taking an expensive risk getting an expensive speaker. I was buying pickups a while ago and was tempted to go with stock Fender Noiseless - I didn't in the end but the point still stands.

In terms of what's a "better investment" again that's entirely subjective. I'm proud of my "raw" tone. Just because it didn't cost me a few grand means fuck all to me. I've got a good few guitars (American Strat SSS, Mexican HSS, Jackson with EMGs put in, Epi Les Paul and a few others) but my favourite guitar at the moment is a Squire Strat I put Lace Sensors into, a switch so I have 9 different pickup selections and changed all the internal hardware (jack, pickup switch etc) to Fender standard and everything rewired. The guitar (including all the upgrades) cost me around €350 but it sounds best to me. Even compared with friends more expensive guitars. With my band, well over half the time I'd play clean and as I said I'm happy with my clean tone.

Now, when I'm not playing clean is where I have fun. I've been building up a pedal collection for years now. While it's not a boutique collection it covers a lot of ground... One of my most useful pedals is a Behringer compressor I got for a tenner because I mix effects quite a bit and a need something to squash everything together to stop things getting out of hand - which I'd regard as a good investment. I want to essentially, be able to think of a sound and create it. So, I'm trying to get as many different pedals as possible. I have compressions, distortions, overdrives, sub-octave, synth, harmonist, phaser, delay, eq and an old Zoom multieffects thing which is really only good for bedroom experiments but I want to build on that with as many different sounds as possible.

I think I've kept relatively on topic here but just to focus it in a bit - as much as your speaker will change your tone to your taste, I'd argue a pedal will change your tone even more, with more room for adjustment and with a far more dramatic punch. I think you've picked a kinda strange one to invest in there... There are so many variables to guitar tone. You could very possibly have a more dramatic effect changing your strings as opposed to your speaker. Same goes for your pickups. I've seen a guy try to argue that his strap was hindering his tone :rolleyes: aaand of course changing what distortion/overdrive etc that you're using.

Anyways... As a final note in the ramble, pedals are fun. Making weird noises and using them in songs is entertaining and rewarding (of course you could say the same thing for tone but I think you know where I'm coming from). And to reiterate, I'm in no way underestimating the value of clean tone, just saying that in my opinion (your's is more than likely different) a new pedal will do more to improve my tone/sound

Seziertisch

Glassheart wrote: »

Are you coming from the position that stock speakers simply aren't up to the task?

I've got a 4x10 59' Bassman and as far as i know the most popular upgrade is to the Jensens that i already have in there.
That amp has taken every pedal i've ever owned really well so i would be reluctant to touch it.

Have a listen to the link posted. One of the speakers is the 12" version of the Jensen in the Bassman. I think in the sample provided it is one of the ones I liked least, although the playing wouldn't necessarily be my bag. I have played through the Jensens in that series before and had similar experiences e.g. ithey are not at their best when dealing with a distorted signal. Though they do do nice country'ish cleans. Of the two Jensen speakers in the clip, I thought the Blackbird sounded a lot better. There are also 10" versions of the Celestion Gold and the Scumback speakers available, and I can tell you first hand that the 12" versions of those are really impressive speakers (though unfortunately not exactly cheap)

I'm not saying that stock speakers simply aren't up to the task (the Jensens in your amp are definitely a cut above most of what comes stock), but a lot of times there are better ones available. As you can hear from the clip a change of speaker changes the voicing quite significantly and based on what you are trying to achieve one voicing might be better than another for you. It might also be the case, that a mixture of speakers might be what works best for you.

rcaz

Seziertisch wrote: »

That's fine, but it is a completely separate discussion, and not particularly relevant in this case.

Seziertisch, your point was that speakers are the best investment for good tone to you, and PaintDoctor made the counterpoint that the new sounds afforded by pedals are more important for some people. That isn't going off topic, that's respectfully disagreeing.

Seziertisch

quicklickpaddy wrote: »

Ah look, everyones got blinkers on here.

Obviously a new speaker would change the tone - as would a new guitar. Whether it improves is entirely subjective. Even with that video nobody here could pick out which is the best speaker where everyone might have their preferences. Stock may be just dandy for most people and it's not something you can really try before you buy. You're taking an expensive risk getting an expensive speaker. I was buying pickups a while ago and was tempted to go with stock Fender Noiseless - I didn't in the end but the point still stands.

In terms of what's a "better investment" again that's entirely subjective. I'm proud of my "raw" tone. Just because it didn't cost me a few grand means fuck all to me. I've got a good few guitars (American Strat SSS, Mexican HSS, Jackson with EMGs put in, Epi Les Paul and a few others) but my favourite guitar at the moment is a Squire Strat I put Lace Sensors into, a switch so I have 9 different pickup selections and changed all the internal hardware (jack, pickup switch etc) to Fender standard and everything rewired. The guitar (including all the upgrades) cost me around €350 but it sounds best to me. Even compared with friends more expensive guitars. With my band, well over half the time I'd play clean and as I said I'm happy with my clean tone.

Now, when I'm not playing clean is where I have fun. I've been building up a pedal collection for years now. While it's not a boutique collection it covers a lot of ground... One of my most useful pedals is a Behringer compressor I got for a tenner because I mix effects quite a bit and a need something to squash everything together to stop things getting out of hand - which I'd regard as a good investment. I want to essentially, be able to think of a sound and create it. So, I'm trying to get as many different pedals as possible. I have compressions, distortions, overdrives, sub-octave, synth, harmonist, phaser, delay, eq and an old Zoom multieffects thing which is really only good for bedroom experiments but I want to build on that with as many different sounds as possible.

I think I've kept relatively on topic here but just to focus it in a bit - as much as your speaker will change your tone to your taste, I'd argue a pedal will change your tone even more, with more room for adjustment and with a far more dramatic punch. I think you've picked a kinda strange one to invest in there... There are so many variables to guitar tone. You could very possibly have a more dramatic effect changing your strings as opposed to your speaker. Same goes for your pickups. I've seen a guy try to argue that his strap was hindering his tone :rolleyes: aaand of course changing what distortion/overdrive etc that you're using.

Anyways... As a final note in the ramble, pedals are fun. Making weird noises and using them in songs is entertaining and rewarding (of course you could say the same thing for tone but I think you know where I'm coming from). And to reiterate, I'm in no way underestimating the value of clean tone, just saying that in my opinion (your's is more than likely different) a new pedal will do more to improve my tone/sound

When you say it is an expensive risk, is it the case that you have changed speaker(s) in your amp(s) and found that you disliked the change?

Also, what speakers concretely have you used (just to get some perspective)?

Seziertisch

El Pr0n wrote: »

Seizertisch, your point was that speakers are the best investment for good tone to you, and PaintDoctor made the counterpoint that the new sounds afforded by pedals are more important for some people. That isn't going off topic, that's respectfully disagreeing.

I never said that speakers were the best investment for tone. I am speaking from the informed position of someone who owns lots of pedals and guitars and has modded lots of guitars and amps. In terms of best investments, I would say that changing the coupling capacitors in the amp are the best investment (depending of course on the amp) from a price/performance point of view. I have also replaced quite a few speakers, and recorded quite a few speakers and can tell you that a good speaker can make an alright sounding guitar/amp combo sound good, whereas a not so good speaker can make a good sounding guitar/amp combo sound only alright, regardless of what pedals are being used.

PaintDoctor, on the other hand, doesn't use any speakers in his set up because he is happy with his digital modelling rig through his Mackie mixer. I also didn't get the impression that he uses any pedals.

And what about you, El Pron, other than having lots of pedals, do you have any first hand experience using different speakers with your rig? Can you say from your own experience that a change of speaker would not make enough of a difference to you to be worth it?

rcaz

Seziertisch wrote: »

Otherwise, I think there is a fair chance that you would "love it" even more going through a good speaker.

Oh, I'm sure, but for me a speaker upgrade isn't high on my list. I've got a ton of things that I've been imagining for months that I can't yet do. You said;

Seziertisch wrote:

I have found a good speaker to be a far better investment in tone than any pedal.

This is true, if you want a particular kind of tone. I want the tone of a nice ring modulator, two loopers and a chorus pedal, and no speaker is going to help me get there.

My next gear investment is going to be a PreSonus Firestudio Project (unless I can figure out a better interface option) so that I can process my guitar in Ableton Live and Pure Data. Do you think a speaker upgrade will be a better investment for me?

Seziertisch wrote:

Have a listen to the link posted. One of the speakers is the 12" version of the Jensen in the Bassman. I think in the sample provided it is one of the ones I liked least, although the playing wouldn't necessarily be my bag. I have played through the Jensens in that series before and had similar experiences e.g. ithey are not at their best when dealing with a distorted signal. Though they do do nice country'ish cleans. Of the two Jensen speakers in the clip, I thought the Blackbird sounded a lot better. There are also 10" versions of the Celestion Gold and the Scumback speakers available, and I can tell you first hand that the 12" versions of those are really impressive speakers (though unfortunately not exactly cheap)

I'm not saying that stock speakers simply aren't up to the task (the Jensens in your amp are definitely a cut above most of what comes stock), but a lot of times there are better ones available. As you can hear from the clip a change of speaker changes the voicing quite significantly and based on what you are trying to achieve one voicing might be better than another for you. It might also be the case, that a mixture of speakers might be what works best for you.

I've bolded all the bits where your argument is completely subjective. So how can you start a thread claiming that other people are looking for the wrong upgrades in their signal chain, when it's all completely based on opinion?

Also, how do you know anyone's looking for these pedals? How do you know we didn't all ask for amazing speakers that were just too expensive for our friends/relatives to give to us as presents?

Seziertisch wrote:

And what about you, El Pron, other than having lots of pedals, do you have any first hand experience using different speakers with your rig? Can you say from your own experience that a change of speaker would not make enough of a difference to you to be worth it?

No, I haven't, because I've never had the money or inclination to do so. I understand the idea, a higher-quality speaker will be more efficient, and reproduce particular frequency bands better/worse depending on the favoured voicing. Right?

I've always been happy with my clean tone, and since then, I've been looking for new sounds that aren't anything to do with a speaker.

-Chris-

As one of the posters who commented about the Fuzz Factory being bright in the thread mentioned in the OP I'd just like to say:

I have exactly the speaker I want...

in exactly the combo amp I want...

at exactly the settings I want...

at the height and angle I want...

through exactly the cables I want...

using exactly the guitar I want...

equipped with exactly the pickups I want...

and exactly the string gauge I want...

through nearly exactly the signal chain I want (I wish my Phase 90 was TBP, I think I need to get a delay back in the chain, I think my Boost n Buff is possibly in the wrong place in the chain - needs experimentation)...


I still think the Fuzz Factory is too bright!

Seziertisch

El Pr0n wrote: »

Oh, I'm sure, but for me a speaker upgrade isn't high on my list. I've got a ton of things that I've been imagining for months that I can't yet do. You said;

This is true, if you want a particular kind of tone. I want the tone of a nice ring modulator, two loopers and a chorus pedal, and no speaker is going to help me get there.

My next gear investment is going to be a PreSonus Firestudio Project (unless I can figure out a better interface option) so that I can process my guitar in Ableton Live and Pure Data. Do you think a speaker upgrade will be a better investment for me?

That's all well and good but my response to your initial posting still stands

Seziertisch wrote: »

I was referring to the guys "stocking up on pedals". I would have thought that it would have been fairly obvious that you weren't being talked about (you having only gotten one pedal)

Ok, we get it, you're not into conventional tone. I was never arguing that you should get a replacement speaker over getting a recording interface. I was referring to the fact that a number of the posters in the Christmas thread seemed to already have duplicates of many of the same pedal category. You weren't one of these people. I already acknowledged this.

---

El Pr0n wrote: »

I've bolded all the bits where your argument is completely subjective. So how can you start a thread claiming that other people are looking for the wrong upgrades in their signal chain, when it's all completely based on opinion?

But you've conveniently ignored the bit where I talk about my direct, first-hand experience

Seziertisch wrote: »

I never said that speakers were the best investment for tone. I am speaking from the informed position of someone who owns lots of pedals and guitars and has modded lots of guitars and amps. In terms of best investments, I would say that changing the coupling capacitors in the amp are the best investment (depending of course on the amp) from a price/performance point of view. I have also replaced quite a few speakers, and recorded quite a few speakers and can tell you that a good speaker can make an alright sounding guitar/amp combo sound good, whereas a not so good speaker can make a good sounding guitar/amp combo sound only alright, regardless of what pedals are being used.

---

El Pr0n wrote: »

Also, how do you know anyone's looking for these pedals? How do you know we didn't all ask for amazing speakers that were just too expensive for our friends/relatives to give to us as presents?

How do I know they are looking for these pedals? Because they posted on the Christmas thread. I think I made that pretty clear when starting the thread.

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El Pr0n wrote: »

No, I haven't, because I've never had the money or inclination to do so. I understand the idea, a higher-quality speaker will be more efficient, and reproduce particular frequency bands better/worse depending on the favoured voicing. Right?

Ok, you have a text book understanding in the difference in speakers (though the bit about more efficient is not really correct), but no actual experience...

As for the money it goes back again to the posters "stocking up" on pedals. They obviously have money.

---

El Pr0n wrote: »

I've always been happy with my clean tone, and since then, I've been looking for new sounds that aren't anything to do with a speaker.

Is it the case that you only use your amp for clean guitar tones and everything eles is DI'ed into your soundcard? If so, fair enough, but again as to whether with a different speaker you could be more happy with your clean tone, you can't really say. At least the opinion I offer on speakers and their differences/benefits are based on my actual experiences. You can't say the same.

Seziertisch

-Chris- wrote: »

As one of the posters who commented about the Fuzz Factory being bright in the thread mentioned in the OP I'd just like to say:

I have exactly the speaker I want...

in exactly the combo amp I want...

at exactly the settings I want...

at the height and angle I want...

through exactly the cables I want...

using exactly the guitar I want...

equipped with exactly the pickups I want...

and exactly the string gauge I want...

through nearly exactly the signal chain I want (I wish my Phase 90 was TBP, I think I need to get a delay back in the chain, I think my Boost n Buff is possibly in the wrong place in the chain - needs experimentation)...


I still think the Fuzz Factory is too bright!

You're not alone, Chris. Check out the mod for it, a lot of guys seem to like what it does.

Out of interest, Chris, what amp and speaker are you using?

Glassheart

Seziertisch wrote: »

Have a listen to the link posted. One of the speakers is the 12" version of the Jensen in the Bassman. I think in the sample provided it is one of the ones I liked least, although the playing wouldn't necessarily be my bag.

You are right the Jensen was the worst after the Eminence speakers.Altough the sound and style of the playing is not to my taste at all so it's hard to tell.Plus the speakers are 12's...

I liked the Blue Celestion best which just edged out the Gold.

Altough the speakers have nothing to do with the pedals i bought.

-Chris-

Seziertisch wrote: »

You're not alone, Chris. Check out the mod for it, a lot of guys seem to like what it does.

I know it can be done, but I'm just not sure I'm confident messing with the pedal - I'm as likely to break it as fix it. I just make sure to adjust the guitar's tone when kicking in the fuzz at the mo.

Seziertisch wrote: »

Out of interest, Chris, what amp and speaker are you using?

I put a Celestion Vintage 30 into my HRD. I only use the clean channel but wanted something with more mids than the standard speaker.
I've owned other amps before, but the HRD is the sweet spot between nice tone and not worrying about it being stolen/broken.

Seziertisch

Glassheart wrote: »

You are right the Jensen was the worst after the Eminence speakers.Altough the sound and style of the playing is not to my taste at all so it's hard to tell.Plus the speakers are 12's...

I liked the Blue Celestion best which just edged out the Gold.

Altough the speakers have nothing to do with the pedals i bought.

I'm not saying that speakers are a substitute for pedals, just a better investment in my experience. A different flavour of fuzz pedal is cool to have but you are probably only going to use one at at time, whereas a good/better speaker improves your overall sound and as such is "on" all the time.

Seziertisch

-Chris- wrote: »

I know it can be done, but I'm just not sure I'm confident messing with the pedal - I'm as likely to break it as fix it. I just make sure to adjust the guitar's tone when kicking in the fuzz at the mo.

Do a bit of research online find out exactly what needs to be done, procure the component(s) needed and then just take it to someone who knows what they are doing.

-Chris- wrote: »

I put a Celestion Vintage 30 into my HRD. I only use the clean channel but wanted something with more mids than the standard speaker.
I've owned other amps before, but the HRD is the sweet spot between nice tone and not worrying about it being stolen/broken.

The Vintage 30 has a mid peak which is one of those classic sounds (just listen to the clip I posted, instantly recognisable from lots of recordings) and how this voicing interacts with the Fuzz Factory is the problem. If you were using a Greenback style speaker (like the Scumback M75 in the clip) you would probably not have an issue. But if you're digging the Vintage 30 otherwise, the mod is a good way to go.

rcaz

Seziertisch wrote: »

But you've conveniently ignored the bit where I talk about my direct, first-hand experience

Your direct, first-hand experience is subjective opinion, which I respect, but I don't think you should apply it across the board.

Seziertisch wrote: »

How do I know they are looking for these pedals? Because they posted on the Christmas thread. I think I made that pretty clear when starting the thread.

You know they got them for Christmas. Maybe I made a list of stuff I'd like as a present, with a 60s AC30 at the top of my list, and an Electro Harmonix somewhere else on the list. A Christmas present isn't representative of a musician's fullest intent

Seziertisch wrote: »

Ok, you have a text book understanding in the difference in speakers (though the bit about more efficient is not really correct), but no actual experience...

Please don't patronise me with comments like the 'text book' one. I've learned this from reading articles and spec sheets, and comparing sounds that I've heard first hand, heard on recordings, seen in demonstration videos, etc. I don't know as much as you, but I've got a functioning knowledge enough to know what I'm talking about.

Seziertisch wrote: »

As for the money it goes back again to the posters "stocking up" on pedals. They obviously have money.

How do you know it isn't about their relatives having money enough to afford an overdrive pedal as a gift? I don't have enough money to afford a new speaker, but fortunately my parents have enough to afford a pedal as a gift for me. I don't think any of this is obvious.

Seziertisch wrote: »

Is it the case that you only use your amp for clean guitar tones and everything eles is DI'ed into your soundcard? If so, fair enough, but again as to whether with a different speaker you could be more happy with your clean tone, you can't really say. At least the opinion I offer on speakers and their differences/benefits are based on my actual experiences. You can't say the same.

The case with me is, I have a functional-for-my-uses clean guitar tone (on the edge of clean - when I dig it in crunches a little), with all of my pedals (filters, distortion, pitch shifting, phasing, vocoder, ring modulation and delay) out in front of the amp. This is, for my current situation, the most flexible. I gig mostly on other people's amps so I have my gear set up so that all I need is a decent clean. I haven't recorded in a few months now.

Seziertisch

El Pr0n wrote: »

Your direct, first-hand experience is subjective opinion, which I respect, but I don't think you should apply it across the board.

Your subjective opinion is based on what exactly?

El Pr0n wrote: »

You know they got them for Christmas. Maybe I made a list of stuff I'd like as a present, with a 60s AC30 at the top of my list, and an Electro Harmonix somewhere else on the list. A Christmas present isn't representative of a musician's fullest intent

How do you know it isn't about their relatives having money enough to afford an overdrive pedal as a gift? I don't have enough money to afford a new speaker, but fortunately my parents have enough to afford a pedal as a gift for me. I don't think any of this is obvious.

... The way I understood it, the lads posting on the Christmas thread were posting about stuff they had gotten themselves (for the most part)... I made no comment on rich or poor or musical intention or whatever, I was simply suggesting other stuff that would be worth looking into if someone has money to spend on guitar gear.

And, by the way, the speakers are one of the most valuable parts of a vintage Vox amp. I wonder why that is?

El Pr0n wrote: »

Please don't patronise me with comments like the 'text book' one. I've learned this from reading articles and spec sheets, and comparing sounds that I've heard first hand, heard on recordings, seen in demonstration videos, etc. I don't know as much as you, but I've got a functioning knowledge enough to know what I'm talking about.

Have you ever taken an amp/rig/set up and left everything unchanged except for the speaker? I have. Sure you have a functioning knowledge but no actual first hand experience. If you look around online I don't think you'll find anyone contradicting what I am saying, other than you that is.

El Pr0n wrote: »

The case with me is, I have a functional-for-my-uses clean guitar tone (on the edge of clean - when I dig it in crunches a little), with all of my pedals (filters, distortion, pitch shifting, phasing, vocoder, ring modulation and delay) out in front of the amp. This is, for my current situation, the most flexible. I gig mostly on other people's amps so I have my gear set up so that all I need is a decent clean. I haven't recorded in a few months now.

So what you're saying is that your guitar is always plugged into your amp and the speaker is the medium through which you listen to your entire chain. Do you see how a "better" speaker "could potentially" make a difference in your situation?

rcaz

Seziertisch wrote: »

Your subjective opinion is based on what exactly?

It's based on my guitar sounding the way I want it to sound.

Seziertisch wrote: »

Have you ever taken an amp/rig/set up and left everything unchanged except for the speaker? I have. Sure you have a functioning knowledge but no actual first hand experience. If you look around online I don't think you'll find anyone contradicting what I am saying, other than you that is.

You seem to be waving all your first hand experience around a good bit. If you get fed up so quickly with people arguing your points, don't offer them up to a discussion forum.

Seziertisch wrote: »

So what you're saying is that your guitar is always plugged into your amp and the speaker is the medium through which you listen to your entire chain. Do you see how a "better" speaker "could potentially" make a difference in your situation?

What would the point in replacing the speaker in my amp be if all the gigs I'll be playing for the next while will be through someone else's amp? At the moment I can't bring my amp to gigs. I can, however, bring my pedal board and laptop. In my situation, the thing I want to do most is impress my audience, and buying a new speaker wouldn't make a difference to that. My ideal pedal board and an interface would though.

If you've got so much experience with this stuff, how would you rate the Presonus Firestudio stuff? Could I get a better 8 by 8 interface under €400?

Owen

Seziertisch wrote: »

PaintDoctor, on the other hand, doesn't use any speakers in his set up because he is happy with his digital modelling rig through his Mackie mixer. I also didn't get the impression that he uses any pedals.

Where did you get any of that from? I said Mackie Power amp, not mixer, and I made repeated references to my cabs. And of course I own pedals - but sure don't let that you stop from making stuff up.
I'm well qualified to give my opinion, but it doesn't matter. Even if I came in here and said I own an iPhone and a copy of amplitube, I should still have a valid opinion despite you thinking you own the thread and rejecting anyone's replies who didn't watch the youtube video you linked to.

As I said in a previous post, chill. We're all musicians, and we're all entitled to our opinions.

Seziertisch

El Pr0n wrote: »

It's based on my guitar sounding the way I want it to sound.

And safe in this knowledge, you can rule out any further possible improvements. Whatever.

El Pr0n wrote: »

You seem to be waving all your first hand experience around a good bit. If you get fed up so quickly with people arguing your points, don't offer them up to a discussion forum.

You are not arguing my points from any informed stand point. It isn't enough to say that "speakers don't matter because I say so" which is essentially what you are doing. You say you are informed by stuff you have read online, soundclips you have heard etc.; yet seeing as these secondary sources are your only source, show me the source you are basing your arguments on.

El Pr0n wrote: »

What would the point in replacing the speaker in my amp be if all the gigs I'll be playing for the next while will be through someone else's amp? At the moment I can't bring my amp to gigs. I can, however, bring my pedal board and laptop. In my situation, the thing I want to do most is impress my audience, and buying a new speaker wouldn't make a difference to that. My ideal pedal board and an interface would though.

Ok, using someone else's amp at a gig is just one of those things. Seeing as most people nowadays are probably going to come in contact with your music in a recorded form (and that seems to be the direction you are heading looking at the question below) a good speaker is indispensible in terms of achieving professional sounding results.

El Pr0n wrote: »

If you've got so much experience with this stuff, how would you rate the Presonus Firestudio stuff? Could I get a better 8 by 8 interface under €400?

Do you need an 8x8 interface? Are you intending to record drums or full band performances at the same time? Or is it that you need 8 outputs for your live performances?

If you are only going to be recording one or two sources at a time then a couple of inputs and outputs should be enough. If you are only going to be recording drums occasionally then a pair of stereo overheads should be enough to get the sound down. If you are intending to record drums for an actual release then depending on what you are after you will probably need a good sounding room (which you probably don't have). In which case the easist thing is to just save up the cash for a day in a studio.

Do you have a budget for microphones? Depending on your needs a stereo interface and another/better/different/whatever mic could be a better investment.

Otherwise, I haven't used the Presonus, but they seem to enjoy a good rep. Have a scout around online for any info regarding stability issues etc. Nothing like technical issues to kill your creative flow. The same is true for the computer you are using. There are recommended formatting guidelines regarding setting up a drive for the stuff you record separate from the programmes you are using.

Though, if you wanted to ask this question you should have just posted it on the recording forum. My reason for answering here is that I suspect you asked the question just to expose me for the fraud that I am ;-)

Seziertisch

PaintDoctor wrote: »

Where did you get any of that from? I said Mackie Power amp, not mixer, and I made repeated references to my cabs. And of course I own pedals - but sure don't let that you stop from making stuff up.
I'm well qualified to give my opinion, but it doesn't matter. Even if I came in here and said I own an iPhone and a copy of amplitube, I should still have a valid opinion despite you thinking you own the thread and rejecting anyone's replies who didn't watch the youtube video you linked to.

As I said in a previous post, chill. We're all musicians, and we're all entitled to our opinions.

Interesting, how would owning a copy of Amplitube on your iPhone qualify you in any way to comment on the differences between guitar speakers? Its a bit like saying that owning a copy of tetris qualifies you to comment on building walls.

Not only do you not have no first hand experience with changing speakers but you didn't even watch the video which was the basis for the whole discussion ... yet still offered an opinion.

But back on topic, what cabs do you own, you mentioned a Mesa boogie 1x12, what else have you got?

Owen

Seziertisch wrote: »

Not only do you not have no first hand experience with changing speakers but you didn't even watch the video which was the basis for the whole discussion ... yet still offered an opinion.

How did you come to the assumption that I've no experience changing speakers?

rcaz

Seziertisch wrote: »

And safe in this knowledge, you can rule out any further possible improvements. Whatever.

Did I ever say I was ruling out further possible improvements? No. Quite the opposite, I said (a few times IIRC) that I was working through a list of stuff to get all the sounds I want, and when that list is finished and all the raw bits are there, then I'll go about the other bits (amps, speakers, cables, pickups) that will make it all sound better.

Seziertisch wrote: »

Though, if you wanted to ask this question you should have just posted it on the recording forum. My reason for answering here is that I suspect you asked the question just to expose me for the fraud that I am ;-)

Haha. Wow. Chill out. I don't want to go around recording forums starting another "What interface?" thread. Thanks for answering. But you ruined everything with that sarcky bit at the end. I'm not the prick you seem to assume I am.

You're really difficult to talk to about this stuff. It's obvious you really know your stuff, nobody's disputing that. PaintDoctor and I are offering some other arguments and you're not allowing us any space. You seem like you're getting a bit fed up with people disagreeing with you. That 'expose me for the fraud that I am' was really unreasonable, you don't even seem to want a fair conversation. You put this thread up to impart knowledge and advice on others, and when I ask a question that would help me and that you'd know the answer to, you answer it with a little jibe at the end? Why ****ing bother with any of this? You're right anyway, and you seem to know you are.

Owen

El Pr0n wrote: »

Why ****ing bother with any of this? You're right anyway, and you seem to know you are.

+1 El Pron, OP, you should just change the thread title to 'Don't post in this thread unless you agree with everything I say'.

Seziertisch

PaintDoctor wrote: »

How did you come to the assumption that I've no experience changing speakers?

Well, in post #7 specifically about this and you replied in post #8, that although you had no information contradicting what was to be heard in the clip, you decided to share with us all that the sound of your Mesa cab could be recreated by digital means. The lack of an answer to my actual question led me to assume that you had no experience.

But seeing as you do what speaker(s) was/were in the cab and what did you change to? Was it a case of replacing a damaged speaker or was a case of being unhappy with the sound?

Owen

[Deleting all this as it's all a bit shouty, and pointless.]

Seziertisch

El Pr0n wrote: »

Did I ever say I was ruling out further possible improvements? No. Quite the opposite, I said (a few times IIRC) that I was working through a list of stuff to get all the sounds I want, and when that list is finished and all the raw bits are there, then I'll go about the other bits (amps, speakers, cables, pickups) that will make it all sound better.

El Pr0n wrote: »

Your .02 cents (2/10000ths of a Euro?) makes sense for overdrives and distortions and fuzzes, compressors and equalisers... But what if someone wants a delay or a Whammy pedal, or (in my case) a vocoder?

Yes, a speaker is a good investment in tone, but would you recommend a good speaker instead of the RC-20 that someone got, if they're looking for a looper? You wouldn't.

As for my 2 cents, I think a lot of people are WAY too preoccupied with "good tone" and don't spend nearly enough time thinking about interesting sounds. I'm pretty sure if you let a tone head play with my setup (MIM Telecaster with a Seymore Duncan Hotrails bridge pup into 10+ pedals, with buffers of all sorts in a lot of the pedals and the odd bout of power supply troubles, into a Marshall AVT100 with stock speaker), they'd HATE it. But I love it, 'cause it doesn't sound exactly like anyone else's.

After a re-read, a lot of that post sounded very sarcky. Didn't mean it that way!

Bearing in my that I made it clear that I wasn't saying that speakers were a substitute for certain pedals, but rather a better investment than duplicates of pedal types you already have (for those that have the money), why exactly have you being arguing me with all along?

El Pr0n wrote: »

Haha. Wow. Chill out. I don't want to go around recording forums starting another "What interface?" thread. Thanks for answering. But you ruined everything with that sarcky bit at the end. I'm not the prick you seem to assume I am.

You're really difficult to talk to about this stuff. It's obvious you really know your stuff, nobody's disputing that. PaintDoctor and I are offering some other arguments and you're not allowing us any space. You seem like you're getting a bit fed up with people disagreeing with you. That 'expose me for the fraud that I am' was really unreasonable, you don't even seem to want a fair conversation. You put this thread up to impart knowledge and advice on others, and when I ask a question that would help me and that you'd know the answer to, you answer it with a little jibe at the end? Why ****ing bother with any of this? You're right anyway, and you seem to know you are.

Seziertisch wrote: »

Though, if you wanted to ask this question you should have just posted it on the recording forum. My reason for answering here is that I suspect you asked the question just to expose me for the fraud that I am ;-)

Have another read of my post, note the ;-) at the end. Did you miss it on the first reading?

Seziertisch

PaintDoctor wrote: »

I'm sure I don't have nearly as much experience as you, but sure I'll give it a go.

I currently own around 15 guitars, one Bass, a pretty expensive Violin, a nice piano, an Ibanez Promethean Bass Combo, a Peavey Bandit Guitar Combo, a beautiful vintage Dynacord 16 channel mixing desk, about 1500 Euros worth of pedals, plenty of rack gear, loads of MIDI gear including a gorgeous Roland 1st gen rack Guitar Synth, my Mesa Boogie 1x12, and my current Ibanez 4x12 which was part of an 8x12 stack I originally toured with. I've previously owned a few PA's, the last of which was a Dynacord P5 rig. I also have a background in Electronic Engineering, and pro in car audio. I've hand built, and hand tuned/ported enclosures for my own vehicles that have been competition winners. My current vehicles both have Harman Kardon sound systems I've extensively modified, and augmented. I own decibel meters, oscilloscopes, and have no problem tearing a guitar amplifier apart to find what's wrong with it. My sustainiac install into my Ibanez Jem is used as a reference for the company who manufactured it to show to potential customers thinking of carrying out the work.

I've swapped speakers in my cars, in customer cars, in PA systems I've owned, in PA's belonging to venues. I've replaced poor quality speakers in combo amps for friends, and for myself. I've also had a right good old fiddle around with the drivers in my home recording studio setup for ****s and giggles.

I've been in studios plenty of times, and I've been in the Irish charts for one of the songs I recorded on - not in the top 40, but it was a charity single with celebrities, and it did well in raising funds for the particular charity.

I'm an audiophile. I'm the type of person who'll sit into a car and listen for crackling in tweeters no one else can hear. I'll listen to a live band and want to be at the desk to sort out the over the top extremely pathetic details that only I'm interested in.

In case you hadn't guessed, I can probably tell you what the speaker is made from. Unlike you though, I don't like bragging (Not the purpose of this reply), or putting people down because I think they don't know as much as me. I'm exactly the opposite, everyone has to start somewhere. I love when people come in here with the mundane questions, or they try to solder up their own leads for the first time and hit problems. I love when people ask questions about speakers, about effects, about setting up their instruments - not because I can offer an opinion, but because I might open up the thread and learn something new that I've never come across before. That's exciting for me.

It's about having an open mind, and it's about being mannerly and polite. Try it, you'd be surprised how much more you'll get back in return for the little you have to give in lieu.

I presumed that you understood that I meant speakers in guitar amps. What guitar amp speakers have you actually changed and what was the difference?

rcaz

Seziertisch wrote: »

Bearing in my that I made it clear that I wasn't saying that speakers were a substitute for certain pedals, but rather a better investment than duplicates of pedal types you already have (for those that have the money), why exactly have you being arguing me with all along?

I didn't like the way you'd started a thread to tell everyone what you thought was the right way. If we all did that Boards would crash. I also didn't like you started this thread when your 'right way' (like everyone else's) is completely subjective (how exactly can one speaker be 'better' than another?). I didn't like how, everytime someone offered a counter-opinion you resorted to an "I know more than you" argument (that doesn't attack points in an argument, that attacks the person arguing, which isn't an argument).

Finally, I didn't agree with the way you were making your points. Such as;

Seziertisch wrote: »

Have another read of my post, note the ;-) at the end. Did you miss it on the first reading?

You can't expect me to pick up sarcasm read from a text and then have a go at me like that when I don't get it. A ';-)' doesn't denote sarcasm or negate a completely unnecessary, rude comment. And you can't even correct a misunderstand like that without an arrogant remark at the end. If you were really being so innocent with that last bit, wink or not, you wouldn't have put it in there.

Owen

You don't need to quote my whole post. It hurts the eyes.

Why specifically guitar amps? Is that just a rule you've created? Course, if you'd read my post, yes, you'd see that I have changed guitar combo speakers too - along with car speakers in very high end installs, and in PA systems too. And if you'd read the wording, you'd also see that there was an improvement. But did we need an improvement in the beginning?

Course, this brings us right around back full circle to the start of the thread where you suggested people should buy better speakers before buying pedals - nearly bordering on saying people were being foolish for buying pedals at all. Myself, and El Pron then suggested to you, that there's little point in doing that these days as with modern, powerful multi effects setups, you can faithfully re-create speakers for recording purposes. Plus, for some people, having funky pedals is far more enjoyable than buying a better speaker for your amp.

The rig I use live and in studio is a perfect example of it. I can chose any amp from about the last 30 years, any cab with any speaker configuration, I can choose to use that direct sound, or I can literally choose from 5 different mic types to mic it with, and I can then choose the mic position. All digitally reproduced - not simulated - and all pretty epic. My 5150 amp/cab simulation in my rig is nearly identical to a friend's actual 5150 (Well, he's sold it now, but you get the point). I was genuinely expecting my rack to be pants, but we both kinda looked at each other thinking "Okaaaaay, this shouldn't be happening". Then I tried it with a MB Rectifier, and that was pretty similar too. I've tried it with a JC-120 - same thing. Some day when I'm rolling around in money using 50 euro notes to wipe my arse, I'll try out the rest with real amps for comparisson.

Sorry to burst your bubble Mr Angry man, but not everyone shares your philosophy - you should try to get over it, and get on with the thread rather than dissecting everyone's posts to bits and getting pissed off that people aren't doing what you say. It'd be a pretty cool thread if you did.

rcaz

PaintDoctor wrote: »

Plus, for some people, having funky pedals is far more enjoyable than buying a better speaker for your amp.

This is a great point, kinda under-noted.

What's wrong with deciding 5 fuzz pedals would be better for someone's needs than 2 fuzzes and a new speaker?

Seziertisch

El Pr0n wrote: »

I didn't like the way you'd started a thread to tell everyone what you thought was the right way. If we all did that Boards would crash. I also didn't like you started this thread when your 'right way' (like everyone else's) is completely subjective (how exactly can one speaker be 'better' than another?). I didn't like how, everytime someone offered a counter-opinion you resorted to an "I know more than you" argument (that doesn't attack points in an argument, that attacks the person arguing, which isn't an argument).

So this has purely being an academic exercise for you. Based on principle. As to how one speaker can be better than another, its the same way that one amp be better than another. An example of a better amp would be the Vox AC30 you mentioned earlier. As for attacking points in your argument, please sum up what is wrong about what I am saying. Provide the source that contradicts what I am saying. It obviously isn't your own personal experience, so what and where is it?

And just for reference here is my first post

Seziertisch wrote: »

Just looking at the what you got for Christmas thread, I was struck by a couple of posters really stocking up on pedals. This isn't a criticism or comment on any of the individual posters on the Christmas thread (I don't know you personally and haven't heard any of your music, don't know if you are professionals/hobbyists), just a comment on the whole pedal thing from someone who has quite a few.Personally, I have found a good speaker to be a far better investment in tone than any pedal.

And in terms of getting the desired performance from a pedal, a good speaker is crucial. There is a thread discussing fuzz pedals at the moment in which a couple of posters complain about the Zvex Fuzz Factory being too bright/harsh. This has been my experience as well on occasion depending on the speaker I am using. As the title says, just my two cents.

I recently came across this clip and I think it illustrates the potential difference a speaker can make

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JPPMiZeYMVo

And here is your first post

El Pr0n wrote: »

Your .02 cents (2/10000ths of a Euro?) makes sense for overdrives and distortions and fuzzes, compressors and equalisers... But what if someone wants a delay or a Whammy pedal, or (in my case) a vocoder?

Yes, a speaker is a good investment in tone, but would you recommend a good speaker instead of the RC-20 that someone got, if they're looking for a looper? You wouldn't.

As for my 2 cents, I think a lot of people are WAY too preoccupied with "good tone" and don't spend nearly enough time thinking about interesting sounds. I'm pretty sure if you let a tone head play with my setup (MIM Telecaster with a Seymore Duncan Hotrails bridge pup into 10+ pedals, with buffers of all sorts in a lot of the pedals and the odd bout of power supply troubles, into a Marshall AVT100 with stock speaker), they'd HATE it. But I love it, 'cause it doesn't sound exactly like anyone else's.

After a re-read, a lot of that post sounded very sarcky. Didn't mean it that way!

Now which one of us has the attitude problem?

El Pr0n wrote: »

Finally, I didn't agree with the way you were making your points. Such as;

You can't expect me to pick up sarcasm read from a text and then have a go at me like that when I don't get it. A ';-)' doesn't denote sarcasm or negate a completely unnecessary, rude comment. And you can't even correct a misunderstand like that without an arrogant remark at the end. If you were really being so innocent with that last bit, wink or not, you wouldn't have put it in there.

El Pr0n wrote: »

If you've got so much experience with this stuff, how would you rate the Presonus Firestudio stuff? Could I get a better 8 by 8 interface under €400?

Excuse me for being sceptical about your motivations.

Seziertisch

PaintDoctor wrote: »

You don't need to quote my whole post. It hurts the eyes.

I just felt you had gone to such unnecessary effort that you should be rewarded ;-)

PaintDoctor wrote: »

Why specifically guitar amps? Is that just a rule you've created?

No, I just figured that since this was the instruments thread, we should try and keep it relevant.

PaintDoctor wrote: »

Course, if you'd read my post, yes, you'd see that I have changed guitar combo speakers too - along with car speakers in very high end installs, and in PA systems too. And if you'd read the wording, you'd also see that there was an improvement. But did we need an improvement in the beginning?

So you've changed unnamed speakers in unnamed guitar amps and heard an unspecified improvement. Care to elaborate?

PaintDoctor wrote: »

Course, this brings us right around back full circle to the start of the thread where you suggested people should buy better speakers before buying pedals - nearly bordering on saying people were being foolish for buying pedals at all.

No I didn't

Seziertisch wrote: »

Just looking at the what you got for Christmas thread, I was struck by a couple of posters really stocking up on pedals. This isn't a criticism or comment on any of the individual posters on the Christmas thread (I don't know you personally and haven't heard any of your music, don't know if you are professionals/hobbyists), just a comment on the whole pedal thing from someone who has quite a few.Personally, I have found a good speaker to be a far better investment in tone than any pedal.

And in terms of getting the desired performance from a pedal, a good speaker is crucial. There is a thread discussing fuzz pedals at the moment in which a couple of posters complain about the Zvex Fuzz Factory being too bright/harsh. This has been my experience as well on occasion depending on the speaker I am using. As the title says, just my two cents.

I recently came across this clip and I think it illustrates the potential difference a speaker can make

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JPPMiZeYMVo

Seziertisch wrote: »

Myself, and El Pron then suggested to you, that there's little point in doing that these days as with modern, powerful multi effects setups, you can faithfully re-create speakers for recording purposes. Plus, for some people, having funky pedals is far more enjoyable than buying a better speaker for your amp.

El Pron never said that you can re-create speakers for recording purposes. I'm not arguing with you about funky pedals, ultimately I own quite a few myself.

PaintDoctor wrote: »

The rig I use live and in studio is a perfect example of it. I can chose any amp from about the last 30 years, any cab with any speaker configuration, I can choose to use that direct sound, or I can literally choose from 5 different mic types to mic it with, and I can then choose the mic position. All digitally reproduced - not simulated - and all pretty epic. My 5150 amp/cab simulation in my rig is nearly identical to a friend's actual 5150 (Well, he's sold it now, but you get the point). I was genuinely expecting my rack to be pants, but we both kinda looked at each other thinking "Okaaaaay, this shouldn't be happening". Then I tried it with a MB Rectifier, and that was pretty similar too. I've tried it with a JC-120 - same thing. Some day when I'm rolling around in money using 50 euro notes to wipe my arse, I'll try out the rest with real amps for comparisson.

What is it that you are using? Just out of interest. I would consider the potential of digital amp modelling not to be entirely relevant to a discussion of what difference an actual speaker can make in an actual amp. Though I presume that there are different speaker simulations available in your modelling software, what is your take on those and the differences between them?

PaintDoctor wrote: »

Sorry to burst your bubble Mr Angry man, but not everyone shares your philosophy - you should try to get over it, and get on with the thread rather than dissecting everyone's posts to bits and getting pissed off that people aren't doing what you say. It'd be a pretty cool thread if you did.

I'm not angry, just kind of perplexed at a guy who says that owning amplitube for his iphone would qualify him to comment on the difference that a speaker makes in an amp.

rcaz

Seziertisch wrote: »

Now which one of us has the attitude problem?

Did you not read the last bit?

El Pr0n wrote:

After a re-read, a lot of that post sounded very sarcky. Didn't mean it that way!

Seziertisch

El Pr0n wrote: »

Did you not read the last bit?

Yeah, I did, but you still went ahead and posted it anyway.

But go on, I'm still waiting to for you to name the source(s) that disprove/negate what I am saying about the importance of speakers.

Not only do I have my own experience to draw on, but I provided a youtube clip which demonstrates fairly clearly what I am on about. For me to be convinced otherwise you need to provide me with something. You accuse me of arguing from authority (though I thought the youtube clip was also pretty illustrative), what is the basis of your argument?

quicklickpaddy

IBTL...