My .02 cents

Seziertisch · 26-12-2010 03:59PM #1

Just looking at the what you got for Christmas thread, I was struck by a couple of posters really stocking up on pedals. This isn't a criticism or comment on any of the individual posters on the Christmas thread (I don't know you personally and haven't heard any of your music, don't know if you are professionals/hobbyists), just a comment on the whole pedal thing from someone who has quite a few.Personally, I have found a good speaker to be a far better investment in tone than any pedal.

And in terms of getting the desired performance from a pedal, a good speaker is crucial. There is a thread discussing fuzz pedals at the moment in which a couple of posters complain about the Zvex Fuzz Factory being too bright/harsh. This has been my experience as well on occasion depending on the speaker I am using. As the title says, just my two cents.

I recently came across this clip and I think it illustrates the potential difference a speaker can make

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JPPMiZeYMVo

rcaz · 26-12-2010 04:08PM

Your .02 cents (2/10000ths of a Euro?) makes sense for overdrives and distortions and fuzzes, compressors and equalisers... But what if someone wants a delay or a Whammy pedal, or (in my case) a vocoder?

Yes, a speaker is a good investment in tone, but would you recommend a good speaker instead of the RC-20 that someone got, if they're looking for a looper? You wouldn't.

As for my 2 cents, I think a lot of people are WAY too preoccupied with "good tone" and don't spend nearly enough time thinking about interesting sounds. I'm pretty sure if you let a tone head play with my setup (MIM Telecaster with a Seymore Duncan Hotrails bridge pup into 10+ pedals, with buffers of all sorts in a lot of the pedals and the odd bout of power supply troubles, into a Marshall AVT100 with stock speaker), they'd HATE it. But I love it, 'cause it doesn't sound exactly like anyone else's.

After a re-read, a lot of that post sounded very sarcky. Didn't mean it that way!

Seziertisch · 26-12-2010 04:15PM

El Pr0n wrote: »

Your .02 cents (2/10000ths of a Euro?) makes sense for overdrives and distortions and fuzzes, compressors and equalisers... But what if someone wants a delay or a Whammy pedal, or (in my case) a vocoder?

Yes, a speaker is a good investment in tone, but would you recommend a good speaker instead of the RC-20 that someone got, if they're looking for a looper? You wouldn't.

As for my 2 cents, I think a lot of people are WAY too preoccupied with "good tone" and don't spend nearly enough time thinking about interesting sounds. I'm pretty sure if you let a tone head play with my setup (MIM Telecaster with a Seymore Duncan Hotrails bridge pup into 10+ pedals, with buffers of all sorts in a lot of the pedals and the odd bout of power supply troubles, into a Marshall AVT100 with stock speaker), they'd HATE it. But I love it, 'cause it doesn't sound exactly like anyone else's.

After a re-read, a lot of that post sounded very sarcky. Didn't mean it that way!

I was referring to the guys "stocking up on pedals". I would have thought that it would have been fairly obvious that you weren't being talked about (you having only gotten one pedal)

Otherwise, I think there is a fair chance that you would "love it" even more going through a good speaker.

Owen · 26-12-2010 04:16PM

Everyone's different, you just like simple guitar tones made from Amps, but others like things like Synths, Vocorders, Octave effects, Flangers, Phasers, Rotary Effects, Tremelos, etc.

There's always been 2 arguments to this. The purists with a Guitar, an Amp, and maybe a few effects like a WahWah and Chorus/Delay, and then there's the other groups. The ones like me who want a USB controlled rig I can play with on my laptop. I like being able to make quirky sounds and figure out what bands like DT and Muse do to their raw guitar signal.

It doesn't mean I'm a better player than you, or you're a better player than me. It means we both play guitar and that's a good thing. It means we have different tastes and that's a good thing too because the world'd be very very boring if we all played the same guitar, the same amp, and the same songs*.

*With the exception of the freak show that is Irish Country and Western. Death to IC&W!!

Seziertisch · 26-12-2010 04:26PM

PaintDoctor wrote: »

Everyone's different, you just like simple guitar tones made from Amps, but others like things like Synths, Vocorders, Octave effects, Flangers, Phasers, Rotary Effects, Tremelos, etc.

There's always been 2 arguments to this. The purists with a Guitar, an Amp, and maybe a few effects like a WahWah and Chorus/Delay, and then there's the other groups. The ones like me who want a USB controlled rig I can play with on my laptop. I like being able to make quirky sounds and figure out what bands like DT and Muse do to their raw guitar signal.

It doesn't mean I'm a better player than you, or you're a better player than me. It means we both play guitar and that's a good thing. It means we have different tastes and that's a good thing too because the world'd be very very boring if we all played the same guitar, the same amp, and the same songs*.

*With the exception of the freak show that is Irish Country and Western. Death to IC&W!!

PaintDoctor, I consider a good speaker to be independent of the approach that someone takes to their instrument. I have a couple of grands worth of pedals, ranging from basic overdrive to a number of synth filters and octave effects. I can say without a shadow of a doubt that all of those pedals sound better going through a good speaker.

Owen · 26-12-2010 04:50PM

Seziertisch wrote: »

PaintDoctor, I consider a good speaker to be independent of the approach that someone takes to their instrument. I have a couple of grands worth of pedals, ranging from basic overdrive to a number of synth filters and octave effects. I can say without a shadow of a doubt that all of those pedals sound better going through a good speaker.

Yes, but that's your opinion. I've a couple of grand worth of equipment too. I've Mesa Boogie cabs, Mackie Poweramps, guitars worth a couple of k each, and I can pretty faithfully replicate the sound of the MB Cab by going directly into my PA using Cab Simulation.

Like it or not, Music Technology is getting pretty impressive. We're at the tipping point now where traditional Amps are becoming obsolete. I'm not talking about replacing amps with laptops (Even though I'm sure that'll happen in the next 10 years) - but I am talking about the holy grail of speakers and cabs and tube amps becoming redundant as digital modelling allows us to recreate them faithfully.

There'll still be people like us who want the proper item though, but that doesn't make us better, or more aware than those who want do reduce gear on stage, or record using digitally simulated amps.

Seziertisch · 26-12-2010 05:07PM

PaintDoctor wrote: »

Yes, but that's your opinion. I've a couple of grand worth of equipment too. I've Mesa Boogie cabs, Mackie Poweramps, guitars worth a couple of k each, and I can pretty faithfully replicate the sound of the MB Cab by going directly into my PA using Cab Simulation.

Like it or not, Music Technology is getting pretty impressive. We're at the tipping point now where traditional Amps are becoming obsolete. I'm not talking about replacing amps with laptops (Even though I'm sure that'll happen in the next 10 years) - but I am talking about the holy grail of speakers and cabs and tube amps becoming redundant as digital modelling allows us to recreate them faithfully.

There'll still be people like us who want the proper item though, but that doesn't make us better, or more aware than those who want do reduce gear on stage, or record using digitally simulated amps.

Since when did this turn into a discussion of whether digital modelling will replace real amps, or going on your first post, a discussion on whether a traditional or experimental approach to guitar is more valid?

I think I was pretty clear that I was suggesting that if someone has the funds they should consider possibly getting a good speaker (presuming they don't have one) over another pedal. That is all.

Has it been your experience with your Mesa cabs that the speaker in there has made no difference to the sound (thus contradicting what I think is clearly audible in the clip)?

I also don't see the relevance of you telling us that you have a Mackie poweramp for your PA and guitars worth a couple of K each. I mentioned the value of my pedal collection to illustrate that you were wrong in your assertion that I

PaintDoctor wrote: »

just like simple guitar tones made from Amps, but others like things like Synths, Vocorders, Octave effects, Flangers, Phasers, Rotary Effects, Tremelos, etc.

I didn't put a figure on it as a "my d**k is bigger than yours" challenge to anyone.

Owen · 26-12-2010 05:12PM

Seziertisch wrote: »

Since when did this turn into a discussion of whether digital modelling will replace real amps, or going on your first post, a discussion on whether a traditional or experimental approach to guitar is more valid?

I'm just having a chat. Chill.

I think I was pretty clear that I was suggesting that if someone has the funds they should consider possibly getting a good speaker (presuming they don't have one) over another pedal. That is all.

And I was pretty clear in suggesting that for some people playing around with effects is more important.

Has it been your experience with your Mesa cabs that the speaker in there has made no difference to the sound (thus contradicting what I think is clearly audible in the clip)?

Didn't say anything of the sort. I did say that the sound in my Mesa Cab can be faithfully reproduced by digital means IMHO, meaning that sometimes rather than blowing 1k on a cab, which will always just be a cab, you could blow 1k on a killer effects rig which will give you the same sound, plus open the door to a myriad of other sounds too.

But then again, having pretty cabs is fun too.

Seziertisch · 26-12-2010 05:28PM

PaintDoctor wrote: »

I'm just having a chat. Chill.

That's alright, but if you want to chat about those completely different subjects you should just start a thread about them.

PaintDoctor wrote: »

And I was pretty clear in suggesting that for some people playing around with effects is more important.

That's fine, but it is a completely separate discussion, and not particularly relevant in this case.

PaintDoctor wrote: »

Didn't say anything of the sort. I did say that the sound in my Mesa Cab can be faithfully reproduced by digital means IMHO, meaning that sometimes rather than blowing 1k on a cab, which will always just be a cab, you could blow 1k on a killer effects rig which will give you the same sound, plus open the door to a myriad of other sounds too.

But then again, having pretty cabs is fun too.

The digital modelling of effects has been around a lot longer than the digital modelling of amps, why not go for an all digital rig? Then again, this discussion would also be deserving of its own thread.

Owen · 26-12-2010 05:50PM

Eh ... if you'd like to control the flow of conversation go start your own forum buddy

Seziertisch · 26-12-2010 06:01PM

PaintDoctor wrote: »

Eh ... if you'd like to control the flow of conversation go start your own forum buddy

The charter for this forum contains the following

Unfortuately, the number of posters going off topic has increased. Because of this, anyone going off topic will be banned.

I don't need my own forum, I just think it would be nice if people could respect the rules for this one.

Owen · 26-12-2010 06:05PM

You're not a mod though, and in MY opinion, I am on topic. I'm discussing what you're discussing. You wanted to know why people buy effects and not speakers, and that's exactly what I'm chatting to you about. If you have a problem with my genuine interest in this thread, and contributing positvely to it, then report my posts, but don't back seat mod.

punchdrunk · 26-12-2010 06:13PM

I've got some nice guitars,I've got some nice amps,and quite rightly so I've got some nice pedals too

when I started out I didn't have alot of money,so spending 100 pounds on a pedal had a far more dramatic effect on my sound than trying to make a 100 pound improvement in the amp I was using
over time I learned a bit about speakers/pickups and the impact they also have
I've now reached the point where I have Guitars & Amps I love,and they are the foundation of my sound,but pedals are more than just the "spice" and I'd hate not to have them
I wouldn't be happy choosing which of the three has the biggest impact on my sound,or which one I could sacrifice if I had to cut corners

Owen · 26-12-2010 06:17PM

My other problem is that I Line Out/DI to the desk so often that my amp's are generally used for low volume backline. The audience rarely hears them, and the speakers aren't miked up, so unfortunately for my gigs, even a cheap and nasty cab would actually do. Hence my retirement of my MB 1x12 Cab

Seziertisch · 26-12-2010 06:20PM

punchdrunk wrote: »

I've got some nice guitars,I've got some nice amps,and quite rightly so I've got some nice pedals too

when I started out I didn't have alot of money,so spending 100 pounds on a pedal had a far more dramatic effect on my sound than trying to make a 100 pound improvement in the amp I was using
over time I learned a bit about speakers/pickups and the impact they also have
I've now reached the point where I have Guitars & Amps I love,and they are the foundation of my sound,but pedals are more than just the "spice" and I'd hate not to have them
I wouldn't be happy choosing which of the three has the biggest impact on my sound,or which one I could sacrifice if I had to cut corners

Completely agree with you on that one (in bold). I'm not suggesting picking one over another, I just think that speakers lack the "sexy" factor of pedals and get neglected by a lot of players (myself included in the past) even though as you say they are part of the foundation of the sound.

PaulieBoy · 26-12-2010 08:27PM

Is it not about what sound you want, and how you get it is down to your combination of pedals and speakers. That then defines "your" sound.
Could be lots of pedals and crappy speaker works for your sound, else quality speaker and no - or a minimum number - of pedals.
At the end of the day freedom of choice takes over and you do what you wanna do :-)
Personally I ain't a fan of pedals -for the bass- but that's just me.

Glassheart · 26-12-2010 08:31PM

Seziertisch wrote: »

Just looking at the what you got for Christmas thread, I was struck by a couple of posters really stocking up on pedals. This isn't a criticism or comment on any of the individual posters on the Christmas thread (I don't know you personally and haven't heard any of your music, don't know if you are professionals/hobbyists), just a comment on the whole pedal thing from someone who has quite a few.Personally, I have found a good speaker to be a far better investment in tone than any pedal.

And in terms of getting the desired performance from a pedal, a good speaker is crucial. There is a thread discussing fuzz pedals at the moment in which a couple of posters complain about the Zvex Fuzz Factory being too bright/harsh. This has been my experience as well on occasion depending on the speaker I am using. As the title says, just my two cents.

I recently came across this clip and I think it illustrates the potential difference a speaker can make

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JPPMiZeYMVo

Are you coming from the position that stock speakers simply aren't up to the task?

I've got a 4x10 59' Bassman and as far as i know the most popular upgrade is to the Jensens that i already have in there.
That amp has taken every pedal i've ever owned really well so i would be reluctant to touch it.

quicklickpaddy · 26-12-2010 08:50PM

Ah look, everyones got blinkers on here.

Obviously a new speaker would change the tone - as would a new guitar. Whether it improves is entirely subjective. Even with that video nobody here could pick out which is the best speaker where everyone might have their preferences. Stock may be just dandy for most people and it's not something you can really try before you buy. You're taking an expensive risk getting an expensive speaker. I was buying pickups a while ago and was tempted to go with stock Fender Noiseless - I didn't in the end but the point still stands.

In terms of what's a "better investment" again that's entirely subjective. I'm proud of my "raw" tone. Just because it didn't cost me a few grand means fuck all to me. I've got a good few guitars (American Strat SSS, Mexican HSS, Jackson with EMGs put in, Epi Les Paul and a few others) but my favourite guitar at the moment is a Squire Strat I put Lace Sensors into, a switch so I have 9 different pickup selections and changed all the internal hardware (jack, pickup switch etc) to Fender standard and everything rewired. The guitar (including all the upgrades) cost me around €350 but it sounds best to me. Even compared with friends more expensive guitars. With my band, well over half the time I'd play clean and as I said I'm happy with my clean tone.

Now, when I'm not playing clean is where I have fun. I've been building up a pedal collection for years now. While it's not a boutique collection it covers a lot of ground... One of my most useful pedals is a Behringer compressor I got for a tenner because I mix effects quite a bit and a need something to squash everything together to stop things getting out of hand - which I'd regard as a good investment. I want to essentially, be able to think of a sound and create it. So, I'm trying to get as many different pedals as possible. I have compressions, distortions, overdrives, sub-octave, synth, harmonist, phaser, delay, eq and an old Zoom multieffects thing which is really only good for bedroom experiments but I want to build on that with as many different sounds as possible.

I think I've kept relatively on topic here but just to focus it in a bit - as much as your speaker will change your tone to your taste, I'd argue a pedal will change your tone even more, with more room for adjustment and with a far more dramatic punch. I think you've picked a kinda strange one to invest in there... There are so many variables to guitar tone. You could very possibly have a more dramatic effect changing your strings as opposed to your speaker. Same goes for your pickups. I've seen a guy try to argue that his strap was hindering his tone :rolleyes: aaand of course changing what distortion/overdrive etc that you're using.

Anyways... As a final note in the ramble, pedals are fun. Making weird noises and using them in songs is entertaining and rewarding (of course you could say the same thing for tone but I think you know where I'm coming from). And to reiterate, I'm in no way underestimating the value of clean tone, just saying that in my opinion (your's is more than likely different) a new pedal will do more to improve my tone/sound

Seziertisch · 26-12-2010 09:06PM

Glassheart wrote: »

Are you coming from the position that stock speakers simply aren't up to the task?

I've got a 4x10 59' Bassman and as far as i know the most popular upgrade is to the Jensens that i already have in there.
That amp has taken every pedal i've ever owned really well so i would be reluctant to touch it.

Have a listen to the link posted. One of the speakers is the 12" version of the Jensen in the Bassman. I think in the sample provided it is one of the ones I liked least, although the playing wouldn't necessarily be my bag. I have played through the Jensens in that series before and had similar experiences e.g. ithey are not at their best when dealing with a distorted signal. Though they do do nice country'ish cleans. Of the two Jensen speakers in the clip, I thought the Blackbird sounded a lot better. There are also 10" versions of the Celestion Gold and the Scumback speakers available, and I can tell you first hand that the 12" versions of those are really impressive speakers (though unfortunately not exactly cheap)

I'm not saying that stock speakers simply aren't up to the task (the Jensens in your amp are definitely a cut above most of what comes stock), but a lot of times there are better ones available. As you can hear from the clip a change of speaker changes the voicing quite significantly and based on what you are trying to achieve one voicing might be better than another for you. It might also be the case, that a mixture of speakers might be what works best for you.

rcaz · 26-12-2010 09:11PM

Seziertisch wrote: »

That's fine, but it is a completely separate discussion, and not particularly relevant in this case.

Seziertisch, your point was that speakers are the best investment for good tone to you, and PaintDoctor made the counterpoint that the new sounds afforded by pedals are more important for some people. That isn't going off topic, that's respectfully disagreeing.

Seziertisch · 26-12-2010 09:14PM

quicklickpaddy wrote: »

Ah look, everyones got blinkers on here.

Obviously a new speaker would change the tone - as would a new guitar. Whether it improves is entirely subjective. Even with that video nobody here could pick out which is the best speaker where everyone might have their preferences. Stock may be just dandy for most people and it's not something you can really try before you buy. You're taking an expensive risk getting an expensive speaker. I was buying pickups a while ago and was tempted to go with stock Fender Noiseless - I didn't in the end but the point still stands.

In terms of what's a "better investment" again that's entirely subjective. I'm proud of my "raw" tone. Just because it didn't cost me a few grand means fuck all to me. I've got a good few guitars (American Strat SSS, Mexican HSS, Jackson with EMGs put in, Epi Les Paul and a few others) but my favourite guitar at the moment is a Squire Strat I put Lace Sensors into, a switch so I have 9 different pickup selections and changed all the internal hardware (jack, pickup switch etc) to Fender standard and everything rewired. The guitar (including all the upgrades) cost me around €350 but it sounds best to me. Even compared with friends more expensive guitars. With my band, well over half the time I'd play clean and as I said I'm happy with my clean tone.

Now, when I'm not playing clean is where I have fun. I've been building up a pedal collection for years now. While it's not a boutique collection it covers a lot of ground... One of my most useful pedals is a Behringer compressor I got for a tenner because I mix effects quite a bit and a need something to squash everything together to stop things getting out of hand - which I'd regard as a good investment. I want to essentially, be able to think of a sound and create it. So, I'm trying to get as many different pedals as possible. I have compressions, distortions, overdrives, sub-octave, synth, harmonist, phaser, delay, eq and an old Zoom multieffects thing which is really only good for bedroom experiments but I want to build on that with as many different sounds as possible.

I think I've kept relatively on topic here but just to focus it in a bit - as much as your speaker will change your tone to your taste, I'd argue a pedal will change your tone even more, with more room for adjustment and with a far more dramatic punch. I think you've picked a kinda strange one to invest in there... There are so many variables to guitar tone. You could very possibly have a more dramatic effect changing your strings as opposed to your speaker. Same goes for your pickups. I've seen a guy try to argue that his strap was hindering his tone :rolleyes: aaand of course changing what distortion/overdrive etc that you're using.

Anyways... As a final note in the ramble, pedals are fun. Making weird noises and using them in songs is entertaining and rewarding (of course you could say the same thing for tone but I think you know where I'm coming from). And to reiterate, I'm in no way underestimating the value of clean tone, just saying that in my opinion (your's is more than likely different) a new pedal will do more to improve my tone/sound

When you say it is an expensive risk, is it the case that you have changed speaker(s) in your amp(s) and found that you disliked the change?

Also, what speakers concretely have you used (just to get some perspective)?

Seziertisch · 26-12-2010 09:35PM

El Pr0n wrote: »

Seizertisch, your point was that speakers are the best investment for good tone to you, and PaintDoctor made the counterpoint that the new sounds afforded by pedals are more important for some people. That isn't going off topic, that's respectfully disagreeing.

I never said that speakers were the best investment for tone. I am speaking from the informed position of someone who owns lots of pedals and guitars and has modded lots of guitars and amps. In terms of best investments, I would say that changing the coupling capacitors in the amp are the best investment (depending of course on the amp) from a price/performance point of view. I have also replaced quite a few speakers, and recorded quite a few speakers and can tell you that a good speaker can make an alright sounding guitar/amp combo sound good, whereas a not so good speaker can make a good sounding guitar/amp combo sound only alright, regardless of what pedals are being used.

PaintDoctor, on the other hand, doesn't use any speakers in his set up because he is happy with his digital modelling rig through his Mackie mixer. I also didn't get the impression that he uses any pedals.

And what about you, El Pron, other than having lots of pedals, do you have any first hand experience using different speakers with your rig? Can you say from your own experience that a change of speaker would not make enough of a difference to you to be worth it?

rcaz · 26-12-2010 09:43PM

Seziertisch wrote: »

Otherwise, I think there is a fair chance that you would "love it" even more going through a good speaker.

Oh, I'm sure, but for me a speaker upgrade isn't high on my list. I've got a ton of things that I've been imagining for months that I can't yet do. You said;

Seziertisch wrote:

I have found a good speaker to be a far better investment in tone than any pedal.

This is true, if you want a particular kind of tone. I want the tone of a nice ring modulator, two loopers and a chorus pedal, and no speaker is going to help me get there.

My next gear investment is going to be a PreSonus Firestudio Project (unless I can figure out a better interface option) so that I can process my guitar in Ableton Live and Pure Data. Do you think a speaker upgrade will be a better investment for me?

Seziertisch wrote:

Have a listen to the link posted. One of the speakers is the 12" version of the Jensen in the Bassman. I think in the sample provided it is one of the ones I liked least, although the playing wouldn't necessarily be my bag. I have played through the Jensens in that series before and had similar experiences e.g. ithey are not at their best when dealing with a distorted signal. Though they do do nice country'ish cleans. Of the two Jensen speakers in the clip, I thought the Blackbird sounded a lot better. There are also 10" versions of the Celestion Gold and the Scumback speakers available, and I can tell you first hand that the 12" versions of those are really impressive speakers (though unfortunately not exactly cheap)

I'm not saying that stock speakers simply aren't up to the task (the Jensens in your amp are definitely a cut above most of what comes stock), but a lot of times there are better ones available. As you can hear from the clip a change of speaker changes the voicing quite significantly and based on what you are trying to achieve one voicing might be better than another for you. It might also be the case, that a mixture of speakers might be what works best for you.

I've bolded all the bits where your argument is completely subjective. So how can you start a thread claiming that other people are looking for the wrong upgrades in their signal chain, when it's all completely based on opinion?

Also, how do you know anyone's looking for these pedals? How do you know we didn't all ask for amazing speakers that were just too expensive for our friends/relatives to give to us as presents?

Seziertisch wrote:

And what about you, El Pron, other than having lots of pedals, do you have any first hand experience using different speakers with your rig? Can you say from your own experience that a change of speaker would not make enough of a difference to you to be worth it?

No, I haven't, because I've never had the money or inclination to do so. I understand the idea, a higher-quality speaker will be more efficient, and reproduce particular frequency bands better/worse depending on the favoured voicing. Right?

I've always been happy with my clean tone, and since then, I've been looking for new sounds that aren't anything to do with a speaker.

-Chris- · 26-12-2010 10:18PM

As one of the posters who commented about the Fuzz Factory being bright in the thread mentioned in the OP I'd just like to say:

I have exactly the speaker I want...

in exactly the combo amp I want...

at exactly the settings I want...

at the height and angle I want...

through exactly the cables I want...

using exactly the guitar I want...

equipped with exactly the pickups I want...

and exactly the string gauge I want...

through nearly exactly the signal chain I want (I wish my Phase 90 was TBP, I think I need to get a delay back in the chain, I think my Boost n Buff is possibly in the wrong place in the chain - needs experimentation)...

I still think the Fuzz Factory is too bright!

Seziertisch · 26-12-2010 10:19PM

El Pr0n wrote: »

Oh, I'm sure, but for me a speaker upgrade isn't high on my list. I've got a ton of things that I've been imagining for months that I can't yet do. You said;

This is true, if you want a particular kind of tone. I want the tone of a nice ring modulator, two loopers and a chorus pedal, and no speaker is going to help me get there.

My next gear investment is going to be a PreSonus Firestudio Project (unless I can figure out a better interface option) so that I can process my guitar in Ableton Live and Pure Data. Do you think a speaker upgrade will be a better investment for me?

That's all well and good but my response to your initial posting still stands

Seziertisch wrote: »

I was referring to the guys "stocking up on pedals". I would have thought that it would have been fairly obvious that you weren't being talked about (you having only gotten one pedal)

Ok, we get it, you're not into conventional tone. I was never arguing that you should get a replacement speaker over getting a recording interface. I was referring to the fact that a number of the posters in the Christmas thread seemed to already have duplicates of many of the same pedal category. You weren't one of these people. I already acknowledged this.

---

El Pr0n wrote: »

I've bolded all the bits where your argument is completely subjective. So how can you start a thread claiming that other people are looking for the wrong upgrades in their signal chain, when it's all completely based on opinion?

But you've conveniently ignored the bit where I talk about my direct, first-hand experience

Seziertisch wrote: »

I never said that speakers were the best investment for tone. I am speaking from the informed position of someone who owns lots of pedals and guitars and has modded lots of guitars and amps. In terms of best investments, I would say that changing the coupling capacitors in the amp are the best investment (depending of course on the amp) from a price/performance point of view. I have also replaced quite a few speakers, and recorded quite a few speakers and can tell you that a good speaker can make an alright sounding guitar/amp combo sound good, whereas a not so good speaker can make a good sounding guitar/amp combo sound only alright, regardless of what pedals are being used.

---

El Pr0n wrote: »

Also, how do you know anyone's looking for these pedals? How do you know we didn't all ask for amazing speakers that were just too expensive for our friends/relatives to give to us as presents?

How do I know they are looking for these pedals? Because they posted on the Christmas thread. I think I made that pretty clear when starting the thread.

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El Pr0n wrote: »

No, I haven't, because I've never had the money or inclination to do so. I understand the idea, a higher-quality speaker will be more efficient, and reproduce particular frequency bands better/worse depending on the favoured voicing. Right?

Ok, you have a text book understanding in the difference in speakers (though the bit about more efficient is not really correct), but no actual experience...

As for the money it goes back again to the posters "stocking up" on pedals. They obviously have money.

---

El Pr0n wrote: »

I've always been happy with my clean tone, and since then, I've been looking for new sounds that aren't anything to do with a speaker.

Is it the case that you only use your amp for clean guitar tones and everything eles is DI'ed into your soundcard? If so, fair enough, but again as to whether with a different speaker you could be more happy with your clean tone, you can't really say. At least the opinion I offer on speakers and their differences/benefits are based on my actual experiences. You can't say the same.

Seziertisch · 26-12-2010 10:28PM

-Chris- wrote: »

As one of the posters who commented about the Fuzz Factory being bright in the thread mentioned in the OP I'd just like to say:

I have exactly the speaker I want...

in exactly the combo amp I want...

at exactly the settings I want...

at the height and angle I want...

through exactly the cables I want...

using exactly the guitar I want...

equipped with exactly the pickups I want...

and exactly the string gauge I want...

through nearly exactly the signal chain I want (I wish my Phase 90 was TBP, I think I need to get a delay back in the chain, I think my Boost n Buff is possibly in the wrong place in the chain - needs experimentation)...

I still think the Fuzz Factory is too bright!

You're not alone, Chris. Check out the mod for it, a lot of guys seem to like what it does.

Out of interest, Chris, what amp and speaker are you using?

Glassheart · 26-12-2010 11:49PM

Seziertisch wrote: »

Have a listen to the link posted. One of the speakers is the 12" version of the Jensen in the Bassman. I think in the sample provided it is one of the ones I liked least, although the playing wouldn't necessarily be my bag.

You are right the Jensen was the worst after the Eminence speakers.Altough the sound and style of the playing is not to my taste at all so it's hard to tell.Plus the speakers are 12's...

I liked the Blue Celestion best which just edged out the Gold.

Altough the speakers have nothing to do with the pedals i bought.

-Chris- · 26-12-2010 11:53PM

Seziertisch wrote: »

You're not alone, Chris. Check out the mod for it, a lot of guys seem to like what it does.

I know it can be done, but I'm just not sure I'm confident messing with the pedal - I'm as likely to break it as fix it. I just make sure to adjust the guitar's tone when kicking in the fuzz at the mo.

Seziertisch wrote: »

Out of interest, Chris, what amp and speaker are you using?

I put a Celestion Vintage 30 into my HRD. I only use the clean channel but wanted something with more mids than the standard speaker.
I've owned other amps before, but the HRD is the sweet spot between nice tone and not worrying about it being stolen/broken.

Seziertisch · 26-12-2010 11:59PM

Glassheart wrote: »

You are right the Jensen was the worst after the Eminence speakers.Altough the sound and style of the playing is not to my taste at all so it's hard to tell.Plus the speakers are 12's...

I liked the Blue Celestion best which just edged out the Gold.

Altough the speakers have nothing to do with the pedals i bought.

I'm not saying that speakers are a substitute for pedals, just a better investment in my experience. A different flavour of fuzz pedal is cool to have but you are probably only going to use one at at time, whereas a good/better speaker improves your overall sound and as such is "on" all the time.

Seziertisch · 27-12-2010 12:07AM

-Chris- wrote: »

I know it can be done, but I'm just not sure I'm confident messing with the pedal - I'm as likely to break it as fix it. I just make sure to adjust the guitar's tone when kicking in the fuzz at the mo.

Do a bit of research online find out exactly what needs to be done, procure the component(s) needed and then just take it to someone who knows what they are doing.

-Chris- wrote: »

I put a Celestion Vintage 30 into my HRD. I only use the clean channel but wanted something with more mids than the standard speaker.
I've owned other amps before, but the HRD is the sweet spot between nice tone and not worrying about it being stolen/broken.

The Vintage 30 has a mid peak which is one of those classic sounds (just listen to the clip I posted, instantly recognisable from lots of recordings) and how this voicing interacts with the Fuzz Factory is the problem. If you were using a Greenback style speaker (like the Scumback M75 in the clip) you would probably not have an issue. But if you're digging the Vintage 30 otherwise, the mod is a good way to go.

rcaz · 27-12-2010 12:33AM

Seziertisch wrote: »

But you've conveniently ignored the bit where I talk about my direct, first-hand experience

Your direct, first-hand experience is subjective opinion, which I respect, but I don't think you should apply it across the board.

Seziertisch wrote: »

How do I know they are looking for these pedals? Because they posted on the Christmas thread. I think I made that pretty clear when starting the thread.

You know they got them for Christmas. Maybe I made a list of stuff I'd like as a present, with a 60s AC30 at the top of my list, and an Electro Harmonix somewhere else on the list. A Christmas present isn't representative of a musician's fullest intent

Seziertisch wrote: »

Ok, you have a text book understanding in the difference in speakers (though the bit about more efficient is not really correct), but no actual experience...

Please don't patronise me with comments like the 'text book' one. I've learned this from reading articles and spec sheets, and comparing sounds that I've heard first hand, heard on recordings, seen in demonstration videos, etc. I don't know as much as you, but I've got a functioning knowledge enough to know what I'm talking about.

Seziertisch wrote: »

As for the money it goes back again to the posters "stocking up" on pedals. They obviously have money.

How do you know it isn't about their relatives having money enough to afford an overdrive pedal as a gift? I don't have enough money to afford a new speaker, but fortunately my parents have enough to afford a pedal as a gift for me. I don't think any of this is obvious.

Seziertisch wrote: »

Is it the case that you only use your amp for clean guitar tones and everything eles is DI'ed into your soundcard? If so, fair enough, but again as to whether with a different speaker you could be more happy with your clean tone, you can't really say. At least the opinion I offer on speakers and their differences/benefits are based on my actual experiences. You can't say the same.

The case with me is, I have a functional-for-my-uses clean guitar tone (on the edge of clean - when I dig it in crunches a little), with all of my pedals (filters, distortion, pitch shifting, phasing, vocoder, ring modulation and delay) out in front of the amp. This is, for my current situation, the most flexible. I gig mostly on other people's amps so I have my gear set up so that all I need is a decent clean. I haven't recorded in a few months now.

My .02 cents

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