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Ratzinger - "Christians most persecuted religious group in the world"

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    #122
    Improbable
    Registered Users Posts: 1,576 ✭✭✭Improbable


    kaiser sauze wrote: »
    Try and specify a war that does not have a religious undertone, you will struggle.

    Genghis Khan

    Edit: Certainly religions have been used as a label to identify one side or another or both in wars. And certainly there have been many wars caused by religion. But by the same token, there have been ethnic cleansings and genocides which have been perpetrated in the name of religion but only as a cover for greed and desire for power. Religion is extremely capable of uniting people in a common goal and as such, is a powerful tool for leaders to use.


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    #123
    smokingman
    Registered Users Posts: 3,737 ✭✭✭smokingman


    With regard to registration of churches, I would imagine if a collection plate was passed around during a mass, then they should most definitely be registered with a government just the same as a charity organisation.

    ...or is it one law for scientology (a perfectly valid religion) and none for christianity?


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    #124
    kaiser sauze
    Registered Users Posts: 1,558 ✭✭✭kaiser sauze


    smokingman wrote: »
    With regard to registration of churches, I would imagine if a collection plate was passed around during a mass, then they should most definitely be registered with a government just the same as a charity organisation.

    ...or is it one law for scientology (a perfectly valid religion) and none for christianity?

    No.

    They are the worst cult of them all, in fact, they are out of this world, literally and metaphorically.


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    #125
    PDN
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,686 ✭✭✭✭PDN


    smokingman wrote: »
    With regard to registration of churches, I would imagine if a collection plate was passed around during a mass, then they should most definitely be registered with a government just the same as a charity organisation.

    ...or is it one law for scientology (a perfectly valid religion) and none for christianity?

    If they want to be recognised as a charity, with the attendant tax benefits, then they register as such. But you don't need to be registered in order to pass round a collection plate on private property.

    After all, there's nothing to stop you meeting with a few mates in your living room tonight, deciding you're all going to attend a rugby match next week, and passing round a hat so everyone can drop a few euro in to cover the cost of the petrol.

    That's all a church is in legal terms in Ireland. It is a voluntary gathering of like-minded individuals on private property who choose to pool some of their financial resources to do stuff collectively.

    Now, if one person (either a pastor or the driver to the rugby match) is making a profit on the arrangement, then they have a personal obligation to declare that as income - but there is no obligation or necessity for the group contributing that money to be registered as a legal entity.


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    #126
    smokingman
    Registered Users Posts: 3,737 ✭✭✭smokingman


    PDN wrote: »
    Now, if one person (either a pastor or the driver to the rugby match) is making a profit on the arrangement, then they have a personal obligation to declare that as income - but there is no obligation or necessity for the group contributing that money to be registered as a legal entity.

    So what you're saying is that all pastors/priests/medicine men in Ireland give away all the money they take in? That's the only way that could make your point valid as, from what I can see, a lot of it is used for upkeep to the private property religious people meet in and to keep said leaders of that particular church in wine and bread.


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    #127
    PDN
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,686 ✭✭✭✭PDN


    smokingman wrote: »
    So what you're saying is that all pastors/priests/medicine men in Ireland give away all the money they take in? That's the only way that could make your point valid as, from what I can see, a lot of it is used for upkeep to the private property religious people meet in and to keep said leaders of that particular church in wine and bread.

    No, that's nothing like what I said.

    I'm saying that there is no legal obligation for a group of people meeting on private property to register as a legal entity. So, for example, there are hundreds of small churches around Ireland that meet in private homes or rent function rooms from hotels. In many of these the members, not the pastors, decide how the money is spent. The legal position is still no different from you and your mates pooling money to go to a football match. So, in these churches, the people who have pooled that money agree how it is to be spent. They might spend some on a guitar so they can sing together. They might agree to use some of it to sponsor a child in Malawi.

    Now, most churches do indeed register as a company and/or as a charity because they find that more convenient, particularly if they want to conduct a legal transaction such as purchasing property. And, as a charity, they will be exempt from rates or stamp duty and members can then claim tax relief on their donations. But there is no legal obligation for them to so register if they don't want to.


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    #128
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,399 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    kaiser sauze wrote: »
    Religion, and christianity in particular, has been the underlying cause for every war.
    And Michael Noonan understands economics.

    Honestly, even religious truth-claims seem only slightly false in comparison.


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    #129
    smokingman
    Registered Users Posts: 3,737 ✭✭✭smokingman


    PDN wrote: »
    The legal position is still no different from you and your mates pooling money to go to a football match. So, in these churches, the people who have pooled that money agree how it is to be spent. They might spend some on a guitar so they can sing together. They might agree to use some of it to sponsor a child in Malawi.

    Much like a credit union then so?....which are registered and regulated in this country.

    I would imagine in that kind of situation, it would be wise to have registration simply for the financial records of the participants. When I give money to a charity or registered organisation, I like to make sure my financial records reflect this in some official capacity. Regulation would also prevent the occurances of the pastor/priest/medicine man running away with the funds as has happened before several times.


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    #130
    achtungbarry
    Closed Accounts Posts: 831 ✭✭✭achtungbarry


    PDN wrote: »
    Maybe you should listen to what people actually say before you go off on one of your hobby-horse rants?
    So, on the planet where you live it is disingenuous for me to state a fact
    Er, OK, if you think that's a point worth making then all power to your elbow!
    Everything else you think I said is, sadly, in your own head.
    Jeez, I understand group solidarity and all that, but don't you think that's a rather pathetic scraping of the bottom of the barrel?
    Only in your head.
    I cannot be held responsible for the marvellous things that occur in your imagination.
    More irrelevant twaddle.
    Logic obviously isn't your strong point.
    It really isn't easy to deal with such muddle-headed questions
    Ok, try to concentrate really hard now.
    so I suggest you take your silly little accusations of sensitivity and put them back into your arsenal of strawmen.
    In fact I'm rather baffled as to why you feel the need to argue about something (philosophy) that you obviously don't understand very well.
    For goodness sake, take off your ideological blinkers and try reading a bloody dictionary:
    Now, you're just making stuff up, aren't you?
    Thank you for that measured contribution to the debate.
    And I cannot believe that anyone would advance the chillingly bone-headed argument
    You need to stand in front of a mirror and take a long hard look at yourself, mate.
    You really are coming across as a stooge and a shill for the Communists.
    And it was a poor point that was poorly put.
    That red herring is really starting to smell bad at this stage. Give it a rest.
    I really can't be held responsible for what you 'take' due to your poor understanding of logic
    But congratulations, that is certainly a very original red herring.
    You really don't get this concept of separate forums, do you?
    But I think you are laboring under a bit of misapprehension, probably caused by posting before reading.
    Is there a College somewhere that teaches you how to do that?
    Because it's a dumb question and a red herring.
    No, because it is a dumb question and a red herring.
    You have actually lived in Ireland, have you?
    Now you're deliberately pretending to be stupid.
    I am amazed that anyone except a fascist would think otherwise.
    Then you're just playing silly word games
    But to advocate....is the hallmark of a bigot.
    That wish you've just expressed is entirely consistent with your totalitarian tendencies and bigotry. I wouldn't expect anything different from you.
    No, nor do I think it's fine for you to post ****e on the internet.
    It's utter crap as an argument


    The expression 'You can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar' comes to mind here.

    I often find that people are more receptive to differing points of view and open to opposing arguments when they are put politely but firmly, and not laced with condecending sarcasm and insults.


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    #131
    PDN
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,686 ✭✭✭✭PDN


    achtungbarry wrote: »
    The expression 'You can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar' comes to mind here.

    I often find that people are more receptive to differing points of view and open to opposing arguments when they are put politely but firmly, and not laced with condecending sarcasm and insults.

    Welcome to the internet.

    I'm not a fan of your posting style either, but I let the mods determine whether it's acceptable or not.

    So did you have any comments to make concerning the topic of the thread?


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    #132
    PDN
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,686 ✭✭✭✭PDN


    smokingman wrote: »
    Much like a credit union then so?....which are registered and regulated in this country.
    No, a credit union lend money at interest. It's a long time since I worked in financial services, but I do know that in the UK that would certainly have required a Consumer Credit Licence.
    I would imagine in that kind of situation, it would be wise to have registration simply for the financial records of the participants. When I give money to a charity or registered organisation, I like to make sure my financial records reflect this in some official capacity. Regulation would also prevent the occurances of the pastor/priest/medicine man running away with the funds as has happened before several times.

    Yes, I think it would be wise too. Similarly, if you and your mates are going to regularly club together to football matches, it would make sense to register as a club and to keep records. It might prevent one of your mates/acquaintances/pimps spending the petrol money on booze (as has happened before several times). :)

    But it still is not a legal requirement.


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    #133
    Dades
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,558 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    achtungbarry wrote: »
    I often find that people are more receptive to differing points of view and open to opposing arguments when they are put politely but firmly, and not laced with condecending sarcasm and insults.
    I have to say, PDN, you are up there in my top five "most indignant posters" - in A&A at least. :)

    i.e. Indignant at the thought that some knucklehead won't concede to your well reasoned and backed up arguments.

    I wonder does it remind you of your time as an atheist? ;)


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    #134
    pH
    Registered Users Posts: 4,188 ✭✭✭pH


    achtungbarry wrote: »
    I often find that people are more receptive to differing points of view and open to opposing arguments when they are put politely but firmly, and not laced with condecending sarcasm and insults.

    He has no interest in others' points of view, when his tortured logic is rejected he resorts to petty jibes and insults - mainly to derail threads, the mods here being enamored of him refuse to deal with it.

    The last time I and others complained he then posted our infraction history in the thread - and complaints about that to the mods here weren't dealt with either.


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    #135
    PDN
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,686 ✭✭✭✭PDN


    pH wrote: »
    He has no interest in others' points of view, when his tortured logic is rejected he resorts to petty jibes and insults - mainly to derail threads, the mods here being enamored of him refuse to deal with it.

    The last time I and others complained he then posted our infraction history in the thread - and complaints about that to the mods here weren't dealt with either.

    So how's the view from the backseat?


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    #136
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,399 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    PDN wrote: »
    So how's the view from the backseat?
    Ah, that's the spirit!


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    #137
    smokingman
    Registered Users Posts: 3,737 ✭✭✭smokingman


    PDN wrote: »
    But it still is not a legal requirement.

    Should be though, if an organised group have nothing to hide then why be against registration to begin with?

    With regard to your football match analogy, there's a world of difference between that and an organised church. While Everton are worthy of worship, I'm not going to live my life according to their boards views on life!


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    #138
    PDN
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,686 ✭✭✭✭PDN


    Dades wrote: »
    I have to say, PDN, you are up there in my top five "most indignant posters" - in A&A at least. :)

    i.e. Indignant at the thought that some knucklehead won't concede to your well reasoned and backed up arguments.

    I wonder does it remind you of your time as an atheist? ;)

    Actually, Dades, if I think someone is honest and interested in having a discussion with a genuine desire to hear what others think then I've got more honey than Boyne Valley Foods.

    However, if a poster wants to lie, score petty points, deliberately attempt to rile other posters with comments about 'medicine-men or sky-fairies', or try to get revenge over some perceived slight in the moderating of another forum, then I have a huge bottle of vinegar that I keep reserved for just such occasions.

    My deepest scorn, however, is reserved for those few individuals who try to be as insulting to theists as possible, but when they discover that turning the other cheek doesn't apply to internet discussions suddenly start bleating, "My feelings have been hurt by a horrible theist bogey-man. Why won't the mods do something?"


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    #139
    Dades
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,558 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    pH wrote: »
    He has no interest in others' points of view, when his tortured logic is rejected he resorts to petty jibes and insults - mainly to derail threads, the mods here being enamored of him refuse to deal with it.
    If posters here want to be treated like children and chided everytime someone offends their sensibilities then maybe you're in the wrong place. The leeway you all enjoy to challenge and bait religious posters goes both ways.

    That someone's online personality grates on you is not enough for us to 'move in'.
    pH wrote: »
    The last time I and others complained he then posted our infraction history in the thread - and complaints about that to the mods here weren't dealt with either.
    That doesn't mean you just quit reporting posts. If it's worth dealing with it - i.e. not just handbags - it will be dealt with. (I have no recollection of the infraction incident you talk of - do you have a link?)


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    #140
    PDN
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,686 ✭✭✭✭PDN


    smokingman wrote: »
    Should be though, if an organised group have nothing to hide then why be against registration to begin with

    Ah, the 'nothing to hide' argument. Of course it only works if everybody fully trusts those with whom you register.

    "After all, Herr Schmidt, if the Jews have nothing to hide then why shouldn't they register with the Gestapo." (with apologies to Godwin)
    With regard to your football match analogy, there's a world of difference between that and an organised church. While Everton are worthy of worship, I'm not going to live my life according to their boards views on life!
    Ah, but now we're getting back to the whole meaning of secularism again, aren't we?

    It doesn't matter whether a voluntary gathering of individuals or not. It doesn't matter how seriously they take their common interest. The whole point behind secularism is that religion should be treated the same as other voluntary associations and gatherings - not as a special case.

    By implying that religion (because it involves worship and people deciding how to live their lives) should be treated differently and as a special case, you are in fact undermining the entire principle of secularism. So, it would appear that you are closer to the Pope's views than I am! :)


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    #141
    smokingman
    Registered Users Posts: 3,737 ✭✭✭smokingman


    PDN wrote: »
    comments about 'medicine-men or sky-fairies'

    Medicine men are the "priests/pastors" of a lot of villages in Africa. Are you saying they have less validity than yourself?


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    #142
    PDN
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,686 ✭✭✭✭PDN


    smokingman wrote: »
    Medicine men are the "priests/pastors" of a lot of villages in Africa. Are you saying they have less validity than yourself?

    Not so common in churches in Ireland, though, which is the context in which you chose to raise them.

    Those who indulge in muppetry hardly have room to complain when they find that those who live by the sword can also die by the sword (now there's a mixed metaphor and a good biblical quote for you). :)


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    #143
    smokingman
    Registered Users Posts: 3,737 ✭✭✭smokingman


    PDN wrote: »
    Not so common in churches in Ireland, though, which is the context in which you chose to raise them.

    Those who indulge in muppetry hardly have room to complain when they find that those who live by the sword can also die by the sword (now there's a mixed metaphor and a good biblical quote for you). :)

    I'm sure there are plenty of medicine men in Ireland with the immigration of African people and traditions in the last few years and I would see them as perfectly valid in the context, just the same as scientologists.

    So taking your wonderfully vague metaphor, I take it you would like to kill me with a sword; is that it? Or does the vagueness of a point only apply when you, yourself, want to twist something?

    ....and Godwin...seriously? I lol'd!


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    #144
    Dades
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,558 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    I think the bickering, finger pointing and moderation (or lack thereof) has been addressed enough.

    Let's move back on topic (or off - does it really matter?) people.


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    #145
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,399 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    PDN wrote: »
    those who live by the sword can also die by the sword
    That'd be the Sword of Truth and the Trusty Shield of Fair Play?(*)

    (*) Apologies for stealing the phrase from a certain fundamentalist christian.


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    #146
    Rabble Rabble
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,367 ✭✭✭Rabble Rabble


    Lol. This thread is an example of the historically illiterate, semi-rational, inarticulate modern atheist at his worst. The Pope is almost certainly correct. Christians are discriminated against in most Muslim countries, and in regimes like China ( about 100M Christians there) and muslims are not in most Christian democracies.

    The first page, did not only not acknowledge this fact, it got the asperger-syndromed shut-ins of Dawkinism riled up again. Ratzinger said something so it cant be true.

    Thats faith based reasoning, right there.


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    #147
    smokingman
    Registered Users Posts: 3,737 ✭✭✭smokingman


    Yes, let's get back to the point shall we?

    The pope said christians are being persecuted - of that, there is no doubt.
    However, persecution in Europe of the group is an idealogical one and that is what riles people here I'm guessing. Should he not have made more of the horrors where the attack is physical?


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    #148
    monosharp
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,981 ✭✭✭monosharp


    PDN wrote: »
    No-one has said that any kind of registration is against their beliefs. What was stated was that "the requirements for registration" as a church are contrary to their consciences.

    And again, I didn't say that. I said 'some people' (not the christians in china) think any kind of registration to the government is against their beliefs and then I asked you was this religious persecution.
    And that's why there's no point in engaging with the rest of your post. You are trying to hijack this into an argument about whether the Chinese underground churches should hold the beliefs that they do about registration.

    Wrong and more dribble and avoiding my main points.

    I am not suggesting they shouldn't hold these views. I am suggesting that laws against these views does not make it religious persecution the same way as laws against any other number of religious beliefs are not religious persecution.
    So I don't see where there is any point in further discussion.

    Ah yes the PDN timely exit. After avoiding most of the points against you and erecting strawmen to destroy you can happily leave the thread here and claim victory.
    You, however, have chosen the very different path of arguing that restricting freedom of speech and freedom of religion is a good thing.

    What about my freedom ? I don't have the freedom to not have to listen to your or anyone else's delusional rubbish on public property ?
    Now, no doubt you will start up with, "Ah look, PDN is refusing to answer my questions."

    It's hard not to say it when it's true!
    If that's the way you want to read this then I guess I can't do anything about that. But I genuinely want to have as little interaction with people like you as possible.

    Well apparently you can't. You have to listen to me. I apparently have the right to follow you around in public places giving you my opinion and ignoring your requests to leave you alone. Loudspeaker optional of course. :rolleyes:


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    #149
    eamo12
    Registered Users Posts: 210 ✭✭eamo12


    strobe wrote: »
    Yeehaaw! We've got a live one.

    Well, I'd like you hear your response to the original comment that 'what comes round. goes around'. Pretty idiotic comment that does shine a light on the thinking of atheists.


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    #150
    Dades
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,558 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    eamo12 wrote: »
    Pretty idiotic comment that does shine a light on the thinking of atheists.
    eamo12, maybe you too should start acting your age and not your username, and quit the robust generalisations.


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    #151
    eblistic
    Registered Users Posts: 162 ✭✭eblistic


    smokingman wrote: »
    Yes, let's get back to the point shall we?

    The pope said christians are being persecuted - of that, there is no doubt.
    However, persecution in Europe of the group is an idealogical one and that is what riles people here I'm guessing. Should he not have made more of the horrors where the attack is physical?

    Indeed. What has persecution of Christians in Muslim or communist countries got to do with the OP?
    Pope Benedict voiced the Catholic Church's deep concern over "hostility and prejudice" against Christianity in Europe today, saying creeping secularism was just as bad as religious fanaticism.

    I'd also like to know where in Europe this goes on:
    between 200 million and 300 million Christians "face daily threats of murder, beating, imprisonment and murder and a further 350-400 million encounter discrimination in areas such as jobs and housing"


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