Ratzinger - "Christians most persecuted religious group in the world"

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Herr Ratzinger wrote:

religious fundamentalism and secularism are alike in that both represent extreme forms of a rejection of legitimate pluralism and the principle of secularity

I think this illustrates the beautiful double standard of X-ianity perfectly.
Most christians are basically secular as the rest of us, including the
more ardent ones, but if they get a whiff of that major sin - the sin of
atheism & all the secularism that comes with it - they instantly denounce it.

So while secularism is associated with 100 million graves due to communism
secularity is the most noble thing in the universe (consisting of the
heavens & the earth). The 100 million graves of capitalism has no
association to christianity whatsoever while the 100 million communist
graves highlight the unbreakable bond to baby eaters. Secularity is
living life the way everyone does normally anyway but just not as
one of them secularists.

The fundamental difference between secularism & secularity is there, it
just takes religi-goggles to see it.

monosharp

Is Ratzi talking about all Christians or just the Roman Catholic kind ?

In fairness to the church of Rome and other mainstream christian denominations I have seen discrimination against them in Asia. Not persecution though which I think is a word thrown round far too lightly these days.

I've seen christians, especially catholics refused jobs quite often. Do you want to know who by ? Fundamentalist right wing christian nutjobs who think catholics and other denominations are as 'wrong' as muslims/Buddhists.

I've also seen them been forced (do it or you'll gonna get fired) to sign over a percentage of their monthly pay to the church of their employer.

monosharp

PDN wrote: »

In terms of raw numbers - it's hard to see any group that would be persecuted in the numbers experienced by Christians in Iraq, Afghanistan, Saudi Arabia, Turkey, Sudan, Nigeria, North Korea, China, Vietnam, Myanmar, Pakistan, India, Somalia, Indonesia etc.

Re North Korea, I'm not arguing with you but this is hardly a significant statistic is it ? I can't imagine there's anymore than a handful of Christians up there.

Re China, how is this religious persecution ? If I moved to China tomorrow and set up an organisation whose aims were to meet in my house, drink vodka and discuss the merits of polygamy all night then I would face (or not face) the same repercussions as your house churches would.

It's nothing to do with the religion. It's about the state not wanting independent groups existing without state supervision regardless of what they are about.

It's persecution, it's persecution against freedom as we know it in the West. But it is not religious persecution. To call it such is just disingenuous as you are ignoring all the other groups persecuted for the exact same reason.

The authorities don't give a rats if they are meeting for religious prayer, intellectual conversation or gang-bangs with midgets. The authorities only care how it impacts the state, more specifically civil unrest.

The issue is freedom, not religion.

And need I point out to you again that independent churches in China are quite visible on the streets and have been for some time.

PDN

monosharp wrote:

It's persecution, it's persecution against freedom as we know it in the West. But it is not religious persecution. To call it such is just disingenuous as you are ignoring all the other groups persecuted for the exact same reason.

Did I call it religious persecution? :rolleyes:

Maybe you should listen to what people actually say before you go off on one of your hobby-horse rants?

The issue is freedom, not religion.

And, as the Pope pointed out, the largest group of people who are being persecuted by those who hate freedom are Christians.

(Having said that, I think he's totally nuts in blaming secularism).

And need I point out to you again that independent churches in China are quite visible on the streets and have been for some time.

You don't need to point it out since it is entirely irrelevant to anything I have said - unless you're going to argue that visibility is incompatible with persecution. Are you really wanting to go down that dead end?

monosharp

PDN wrote: »

Did I call it religious persecution? :rolleyes:

Maybe you should listen to what people actually say before you go off on one of your hobby-horse rants?

Ok then you said it was Christians getting persecuted.

And my point stands. You are been disingenuous here. They are not been persecuted because they are Christian, they are been persecuted because part of what they do is against the state policy of civil control.

It's like saying that black people in the 50's USA were discriminated against because they were Christian.

Their religion has naught to do with it and you know it and yet you continuously try to spread this propaganda here on boards.

You phrased the above in such a way to make people think they were been persecuted because they were Christian and it's not the first time you've done it. Your hobby horse rant of choice I believe.

getz

and there is me believing it was the jews

PDN

monosharp wrote: »

Ok then you said it was Christians getting persecuted.

And my point stands. You are been disingenuous here. They are not been persecuted because they are Christian, they are been persecuted because part of what they do is against the state policy of civil control.

So, on the planet where you live it is disingenuous for me to state a fact (Christians are being persecuted in various countries) unless I also stress that the primary reasons for that persecution in a particular one of the fourteen countries which I mentioned are not religious (even though I hadn't mentioned the motivation and, without being a mindreader and a fortune teller, could not have predicted that you were thinking of such an issue or were going to raise it)? Planet Monosharp is evidently a strange and wonderful place.

It's like saying that black people in the 50's USA were discriminated against because they were Christian.

Well it's nothing like it at all, since I never mentioned the motivation behind the persecution. But, hey, if introducing random and irrelevant references to to blacks in the USA is your thing then way to go! It's a free country.

Their religion has naught to do with it and you know it and yet you continuously try to spread this propaganda here on boards.

Actually I didn't spread any propaganda. I stated a fact that Christians are being persecuted, and I gave fourteen countries as examples.

Now you obviously feel the need to discuss the reasons for that persecution, which you are free to do so, but I'm really at a loss as to why you're making false allegations about me.

So your position is that Christians are being persecuted, but you want to stress that religion has nothing to do with it. So even if the guys in China were not Christians, but still chose to meet in churches and pray to God and read from the Bible then they would be persecuted anyway? Er, OK, if you think that's a point worth making then all power to your elbow!

You phrased the above in such a way to make people think they were been persecuted because they were Christian and it's not the first time you've done it.

No, I simply stated they were being persecuted. Everything else you think I said is, sadly, in your own head.

So Christians are being persecuted in Iraq, Afghanistan, Saudi Arabia, Turkey, Sudan, Nigeria, North Korea, China, Vietnam, Myanmar, Pakistan, India, Somalia, Indonesia etc - but it's all just a massive coincidence. They're unlucky enough to be in the wrong place at the wrong time, but they're not being persecuted because they're Christians.

To quote Santa, "Ho! Ho! Ho!"

PDN

getz wrote: »

and there is me believing it was the jews

Ah, but they're not being persecuted because they're Jews!

monosharp

PDN wrote: »

Well it's nothing like it at all, since I never mentioned the motivation behind the persecution. But, hey, if introducing random and irrelevant references to to blacks in the USA is your thing then way to go! It's a free country.

No you didn't but let's ask someone else here reading it shall we ?

Can someone else here who was reading this thread please tell us when after PDN's post you believe it insinuated that they were been persecuted for been Christian or not ?

Actually I didn't spread any propaganda. I stated a fact that Christians are being persecuted, and I gave fourteen countries as examples.

Where you insinuated the reason was their Christianity.

Now you obviously feel the need to discuss the reasons for that persecution, which you are free to do so, but I'm really at a loss as to why you're making false allegations about me.

Because you have continuously misrepresented the situation in China here and on the other forum.

No, I simply stated they were being persecuted. Everything else you think I said is, sadly, in your own head.

So why say they were Christian at all ? Is it any less wrong if they were Muslim ? If they were Atheist ?

getz

PDN wrote: »

Ah, but they're not being persecuted because they're Jews!

recently the catholic church tried blaimed the jewish lobby in the US for making a big deal about the churches child abuses,

sensibleken

why does anyone care what this guy has to say? He's an 84 year old man whos best friend is a jewish zombie whos da lives on a cloud. he says a lot of things, he says he has a magic chair where he cant be wrong when he sits on it.

sorry, i know I could have given a rational counter arguement but if that was my grandad or any of the ould fellas i drink with id just wait for one of the other lads to say 'ah, you cant think like that anymore' and then get them another pint

PDN

getz wrote: »

recently the catholic church tried blaimed the jewish lobby in the US for making a big deal about the churches child abuses,

While that would be extremely stupid of them, it hardly amounts to persecution, does it?

But I can find no source quoting the Vatican to blame 'the Jewish lobby' for the child abuse furore. Do you have a source for this remarkable claim?

PDN

monosharp wrote: »

No you didn't but let's ask someone else here reading it shall we ?

Can someone else here who was reading this thread please tell us when after PDN's post you believe it insinuated that they were been persecuted for been Christian or not ?

"Help, I can't quote PDN saying anything remotely like what I claimed he said. Can any other atheists here, in the Atheist and Agnosticism forum, back me up by saying you believe he was really thinking it even though he never said it?"

Jeez, I understand group solidarity and all that, but don't you think that's a rather pathetic scraping of the bottom of the barrel?

Where you insinuated the reason was their Christianity

Only in your head. I certainly never stated anything in this thread other than that Christians probably compose, in numerical terms, the largest group of people being persecuted in the world today. I cannot be held responsible for the marvellous things that occur in your imagination.

Because you have continuously misrepresented the situation in China here and on the other forum.

I can't comment on anything that has been discussed 'in the other forum' because that would be against the Charter of this forum.

Maybe you should address what I actually post in this thread in this forum?

So why say they were Christian at all ? Is it any less wrong if they were Muslim ? If they were Atheist ?

Now, you've really jumped the shark. I've consistently stated (including in post number 22 of this thread) that common human decency should abhor the persecution of anyone, including atheists or Muslims.

If Christians compose the largest group of people currently facing persecution today, then I fail to see what is wrong with stating that fact. Would you prefer it if we all resolutely ignored that fact for monosharp's sake, so as not to accidentally trigger something in your imagination about what you think we might be implying?

getz

PDN wrote: »

While that would be extremely stupid of them, it hardly amounts to persecution, does it?

But I can find no source quoting the Vatican to blame 'the Jewish lobby' for the child abuse furore. Do you have a source for this remarkable claim?

try www.religiongonecrazy.com/crazy-bishop-blaims-crazy-jews-for-criticism-of-catholic-church-record-on-abuse/

PDN

getz wrote: »

try www.religiongonecrazy.com/crazy-bishop-blaims-crazy-jews-for-criticism-of-catholic-church-record-on-abuse/

I did try it. It says:

404: Page Not Found

We are terribly sorry, but the URL you typed no longer exists. It might have been moved or deleted, or perhaps you mistyped it. We suggest searching the site:

robindch

PDN wrote: »

I stated a fact that Christians are being persecuted, and I gave fourteen countries as examples.

If you go back to the original post, you'll see that a much more specific question was being asked.

Nobody is denying that groups of political supremacists are attacking other groups of political supremacists in many countries. This is, frankly, inevitable given the way that these supremacists set themselves up as much to differentiate themselves from impure outsiders, as to declare themselves free from taint.

The question that I asked was whether people had witnessed unprovoked attacks, especially to the level that Ratzinger's spokesman claimed. Which is the quite extraordinary claim that that something like 625 million people -- almost 10% of the world's population -- are suffering either discrimination or violence on a daily basis.

If some guy, especially a leading christian like Ratzinger, is declaring "persecution" on such a massive scale, it's up to him to back up his figures with solid, fair evidence. So far he hasn't, and neither the Vatican nor it seems, any other christian group, seems to have any interest in doing so.

In these circumstances, you can perhaps understand why people might start to get tired of hearing the Vatican's unsupported claims.

nozzferrahhtoo

I would not call it persecution. If you express certainty on a subject that you have literally not got the first piece of data to support you will eventually get called out on it. Sometimes this will happen quickly. Sometimes the canard will last for years or even centuries. Eventually it will be spotted. People are now starting to spot it.

People who get away with it for awhile however really tend to panic when they are finally caught out, and calling out things like “persecution” and “intolerance” is simply a knee jerk reaction to the panic of thinking “People are not falling for this stuff anymore, now what???”

Then again it may be just that the pope is bad at maths though and does not understand increasingly proportionality. If two groups are experiencing persecution and one group is 5 times bigger than the other, it is likely you will find 5 times more persecution of the bigger group in line with this. Maybe the pope quite simply does not realise this and could do with a course in basic statistical maths? I'd be happy to give it to him pro bono.

monosharp

PDN wrote: »

"Help, I can't quote PDN saying anything remotely like what I claimed he said. Can any other atheists here, in the Atheist and Agnosticism forum, back me up by saying you believe he was really thinking it even though he never said it?"

Ha! Says the man who exited the last thread never to be seen again where we talked about this when you were shown to be misrepresenting what the Chinese government was saying.

What you said is exactly the same as someone saying Muslims were attacked on 9/11 because some of the people working in the twin towers were muslim. Your statement is exactly the same as claiming that christians were persecuted in the US in the 1950's (over race).

Making a statement like 'Christians are persecuted in China' immediately insinuates that it is because they are Christian by the wording of the sentence and you can't wriggle your way out of it.

Jeez, I understand group solidarity and all that, but don't you think that's a rather pathetic scraping of the bottom of the barrel?

I won't even bother lowering myself to your level.

Now, you've really jumped the shark. I've consistently stated (including in post number 22 of this thread) that common human decency should abhor the persecution of anyone, including atheists or Muslims.

Yet you fail to point out that there are hundreds of thousands of Christians in china who face absolutely no persecution. You purposely insinuate that Christians are been persecuted in China for been christian.

robindch

PDN wrote: »

I can find no source quoting the Vatican to blame 'the Jewish lobby' for the child abuse furore. Do you have a source for this remarkable claim?

At the time the claim was made, it was quite widely reported. Try here:

http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2010/04/12/bishop_blames_pedophilia_jews_open2010

Interesting, if sad, to see the article referencing a prominent scholar who claims that it's the jewish population which is facing genocidal threats.

I'm tempted to google for claims from the islamic side that it's really them that are being persecuted.

PDN

monosharp wrote: »

Ha! Says the man who exited the last thread never to be seen again where we talked about this when you were shown to be misrepresenting what the Chinese government was saying.

I don't remember discussing this with you in this forum before. Or are you still trying to discuss other fora?

What you said is exactly the same as someone saying Muslims were attacked on 9/11 because some of the people working in the twin towers were muslim. Your statement is exactly the same as claiming that christians were persecuted in the US in the 1950's (over race).

More irrelevant twaddle. I've made no statement as to why Christians are persecuted in the 14 countries I referred to. I've certainly not mentioned 9/11.

Making a statement like 'Christians are persecuted in China' immediately insinuates that it is because they are Christian by the wording of the sentence and you can't wriggle your way out of it.

Logic obviously isn't your strong point.

If I say, "Jaguars are being killed in the Amazon basin" then I am making a statement about the dangers to Jaguars. I am not implying anything as to the reasons why they are being killed. They may be killed purely because they are jaguars, or they may be killed because loggers are destroying their habitat - but my statement does not adress that issue.

Yet you fail to point out that there are hundreds of thousands of Christians in china who face absolutely no persecution.

I'll be honest, I'm really struggling here. It really isn't easy to deal with such muddle-headed questions without honestly expressing my opinion and thus breaching the Charter.

Nowhere have I ever claimed that all Christians in a particular country (let alone in all the 14 examples I cited) are being persecuted.

You purposely insinuate that Christians are been persecuted in China for been christian.

Once again, I can only defend or address what I've actually said, not what you imagine that I might be thinking.

PDN

robindch wrote: »

At the time the claim was made, it was quite widely reported. Try here:

http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2010/04/12/bishop_blames_pedophilia_jews_open2010

Interesting, if sad, to see the article referencing a prominent scholar who claims that it's the jewish population which is facing genocidal threats.

I'm tempted to google for claims from the islamic side that it's really them that are being persecuted.

Ah, I understood from getz that this was a position that the Catholic Church had taken, not the ramblings of a retired bishop.

To be fair, and you know I have no love for the Catholic hierarchy, I would imagine that you could always find a quote from some old retired cleric to support any crazy position.

FoxT

robindch wrote: »

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2010/1216/breaking47.html



Has anybody here actually witnessed anything that they could fairly call unprovoked "persecution"?

Some of the best examples of unprovoked persecution are victims of Child abuse, by the Church's own ministers. This has been a worldwide phenomenon & the pope would be better advised to come clean on that one.

As for his comments about European secularism - there is thank goodness, a rising tide of secularism across Europe - partly fuelled by the actions of the Church there in the past.

Ratzi doesn't have a leg to stand on here.

getz

PDN wrote: »

Ah, I understood from getz that this was a position that the Catholic Church had taken, not the ramblings of a retired bishop.

To be fair, and you know I have no love for the Catholic hierarchy, I would imagine that you could always find a quote from some old retired cleric to support any crazy position.

not quite the ramblings of a retired bishop,he is stll a bishop untill he dies,but not only is he a bishop he is a emeritus bishop that give him clout,it also doesent help when father raniero cantalamessa[preacher for the papel household] opened his mouth,he isent retired

Zombrex

Irish Times
Pope Benedict voiced the Catholic Church's deep concern over "hostility and prejudice" against Christianity in Europe today, saying creeping secularism was just as bad as religious fanaticism.

While I've no doubt that large numbers of Christians face horrible oppression, including for being Christians, this increasing move in the west by some religious people (including apparently the Pope) to associate secularism with religious oppression is rather worrying.

Only last week we had a thread on the other forum saying that in England Christians were regularly being discriminated against. The cause? Being required to perform a job that they had moral objections to or leave the job.

I think this sort of nonsense, trying to associate secularism with discriminationa and oppression to attack secularism is a disturbing trend, one that not only threatens the religious freedoms we enjoy in the West and also insults those who are actually suffering religious oppression in areas and countries that don't have these protections.

It is failing to recognize that secularism is actually the principle that protects religious freedom. Most repression of Christians happens in countries that have state sponsored religions or religious positions (such as atheism in China). Christians are oppressed for picking the "wrong" religion. That is exactly what secularism is trying to prevent.

These sort of attacks against secularism are therefore spectacularly missing the point, viewing terms still in this notion of "right" or "wrong" religious position.

smokingman

PDN wrote: »

So that makes it OK for you to have a laugh about it? Nice.

Btw, I'm not picking on you because of your atheism, if I heard a Christian mocking the fact of atheists or Muslims being murdered I would hold them in the same level of contempt. There is a level of human decency that does, or at least should, transcend ideological differences.

Yes, that's what I was doing, laughing....cause we eat babies now don't we... :rolleyes:
You seem to have the self same sensitivity to any bad thing said against your god as Benny does and I suspect you're "picking" on me due to your rampant deletions of any of my posts on your forum. But that aside...

What he said (again, not the first time he's done this) that was particularly stupid was that he equates atheists with the most henious suicide bomber.
The level of hipocracy is outstanding and just to simplify it so that a child would understand...

Children, they're amazing little people with their whole world ahead of them.
Everything is a wonder to them and everything is beautiful and innocent.

Now consider the brutal rape and molestation of these by priests here in Ireland and the reaction of your boss benny. What did he do? Get them locked up so they couldn't do it again or move them somewhere else so they could start again?

I await the "this has all been discussed to death" and "the church is changing!" rubbish but the actions of these very holy people protecting these other very holy people deserve nothing but persecution from this particular part of Europe. The gall of the vatican saying that they were "offended" by requests from the Murphy/Ryan inquiries for more information!
They might try to brush it all under the carpet of history but that's not going to happen and people should always remember how many people have to go to bed at night and relive the nightmares forced upon them.

If I believed in hell, I'd say benny will find his due justice there....but I don't so I'm going to encourage anyone to give him that here instead....in the real non-magic reality.

PDN

smokingman wrote: »

Yes, that's what I was doing, laughing....cause we eat babies now don't we... :rolleyes:
You seem to have the self same sensitivity to any bad thing said against your god as Benny does

Ok, try to concentrate really hard now. I'm going to try to help you understand an important distinction:

a) God. An (allegedly) omnipotent, omnisciient and omnipresent human being who is the Creator and Sustainer of the universe.

b) People. Hominoids, usually with two arms and two legs, who are remarkable fragile and liable to be hurt when they come into collision with machetes, bullets, or explosives.

I couldn't give a toss what bad things the likes of you says about God - so I suggest you take your silly little accusations of sensitivity and put them back into your arsenal of strawmen.

When it comes to people, however, I have spent too many hours sitting with the widows and orphans of murder victims to have anything but contempt for those who find persecution of anyone, irrespective of their religion or lack of such, to be funny. Your comments in post number 5 ignored a very real point, that Christians are being murdered daily, to mock the 'poor Christians'.

I suspect you're "picking" on me due to your rampant deletions of any of my posts on your forum. But that aside...

This is the Atheism and Agnosticism Forum. If you have a problem with the moderation of another forum I suggest you take it to Dispute Resolution. I am certainly not going to be petty enough to breach this forum's Charter to discuss that with you here.

What he said (again, not the first time he's done this) that was particularly stupid was that he equates atheists with the most henious suicide bomber.

He didn't actually, but he did refer to both issues in the same speech.

Children, they're amazing little people with their whole world ahead of them. Everything is a wonder to them and everything is beautiful and innocent.

Except, of course, the children who are murdered in church in Iraq who are simply an excuse for you to crack a joke about those 'poor Christians'.

Now consider the brutal rape and molestation of these by priests here in Ireland and the reaction of your boss benny.

I'm not a Catholic, so Benny is no more my boss than Kim Il Jung is your boss. :rolleyes:

I await the "this has all been discussed to death" and "the church is changing!" rubbish

Then you'll wait a long time discussing the persecution of Christians worldwide with a non-Catholic, won't you?

robindch

smokingman wrote: »

I suspect you're "picking" on me due to your rampant deletions of any of my posts on your forum.

Comments about moderation are for the Feedback forum only.

keppler

getz wrote: »

and there is me believing it was the jews

eh.....believing they're persecuted or persecuting

Dades

^^ They're like the violent father whose own father beat them black and blue.

keppler

Dades wrote: »

^^ They're like the violent father whose own father beat them black and blue.

There not the only ones