Ratzinger - "Christians most persecuted religious group in the world"

robindch

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2010/1216/breaking47.html

Ratzinger has issued a fairly strongly worded statement on the Vatican's "World Day of Peace", saying that christians are the most persecuted religious group in the world. Unbiased, sourced statistics, needless to say, are thin on the ground, but this hasn't stopped him from claiming thusly:

Ratzinger wrote:

The same determination that condemns every form of fanaticism and religious fundamentalism must also oppose every form of hostility to religion that would restrict the public role of believers in civil and political life [...] It should be clear that religious fundamentalism and secularism are alike in that both represent extreme forms of a rejection of legitimate pluralism and the principle of secularity.

A spokesman further clarified:

Some Guy wrote:

[...between 200 million and 300 million Christians...] face daily threats of murder, beating, imprisonment and murder and a further 350-400 million encounter discrimination in areas such as jobs and housing.

Feelings of persecution are nothing new to christianity -- in fact, persecution is almost a central dogma -- but I have to say that I'm finding Ratzinger's tone increasingly unhelpful, narky and paranoid, and it's beginning to bug me.

Has anybody here actually witnessed anything that they could fairly call unprovoked "persecution"?

Lab_Mouse

I think he has a pain in his hole with 'militant atheists' or people who are willing to point out BS when they see/hear it.From that point of view I would say he feels his dogma is being persecuted

Teclo

robindch wrote: »

Has anybody here actually witnessed anything that they could fairly call unprovoked "persecution"?

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/39945190/ns/world_news-mideast/n_africa/

Darlughda

Awww. Diddums.

Well, what goes around comes around.

Makes a change from the Middle ages, when christians were the most persecuting religious group in the world.

smokingman

Won't someone please think of the christians!
Must be terrible for them being attacked and mocked so much. I hear they were very insulted lately by some upstart crowd looking for details of why they protected very holy child rapists....the cheek!

Knasher

I think perhaps he is confused of the difference between being persecuted and being christian against being persecuted because your christian.

Galvasean

I was going to say Muslims are the most persecuted, but most of that is persecution is by other Muslims.

Teclo

Darlughda wrote: »

Awww. Diddums.

Well, what goes around comes around.

Makes a change from the Middle ages, when christians were the most persecuting religious group in the world.

You are an idiot. But at least you show others how deranged atheists can be.

Nodin

Galvasean wrote: »

I was going to say Muslims are the most persecuted, but most of that is persecution is by other Muslims.

Sunni on Shia mostly, with a bit of Sunni v Alevi for good measure..still persecution though.

2Scoops

There's some genuine persecution of Christians in the ME and Africa... which makes it all the more bizarre that the Pope would reserve his "strongest words" for the "creeping secularism" in Europe.

Secularism: it's sh1t, isn't? Being fair to everyone, like. :mad::pac:

strobe

Teclo wrote: »

You are an idiot. But at least you show others how deranged atheists can be.

Yeehaaw! We've got a live one.

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

who else would be the most persecuted religious group? scientologists?

it more than likely is the christians.

GLaDOS

Oh you all knew it was coming

smk89

strobe wrote: »

Yeehaaw! We've got a live one.

Quickly! Get the exorcism tongs!

Darlughda

Teclo wrote: »

You are an idiot. But at least you show others how deranged atheists can be.

Gosh. History wasn't your strong point in school then.:D

Improbable

When one of the most powerful organisations in the world (religious and not) is claiming that they are being persecuted, what they mean in reality is that the rest of the world is no longer putting up with their bovine excrement and they're upset about it. They'd politely ask us to stop the "persecution" and allow them to go about doing whatever they want under the cloak of religious freedom, even if what they're doing is not only criminal but morally abhorrent.

Well, if I am persecuted for being a practicing Catholic, it won't stop me from praying for those who persecute me or the Church to which I belong! (Matthew 5:44)

Free prayers for everyone! :pac:

PDN

smokingman wrote: »

Won't someone please think of the christians!
Must be terrible for them being attacked and mocked so much. I hear they were very insulted lately by some upstart crowd looking for details of why they protected very holy child rapists....the cheek!

Ah well, when Christians are being murdered in Iraq on a daily basis at least someone finds it funny.

Here, have a real giggle at this:

robindch

Teclo wrote: »

You are an idiot.

And you are a visitor to the forum, so our unwritten "those-unfamiliar-with-the-rules" rules apply.

FYI - direct personal insults are off-limits, so please bear this in mind when posting, lest you feel the chill prod of the forum's thunderstick.

smokingman

PDN wrote: »

Ah well, when Christians are being murdered in Iraq on a daily basis at least someone finds it funny.

Here, have a real giggle at this

According to your book, your god let this kind of thing happen.
So when you think about it, you've only your god to blame.

Improbable

smokingman wrote: »

According to your book, your god let this kind of thing happen.
So when you think about it, you've only your god to blame.

In fairness, it's nothing to do with the validity of the religion but the persecution of a group of people. In more recent history, it has been the case that christians have enjoyed a great deal of power. From crusades to forced conversion of indigenous people to persecution of other religions, it can't be said that christianity has been a shining beacon of good throughout history. It's not right because I'd wager that most of those people were good people and they didn't deserve to die. I grieve for their families. But for the pope to make such a statement as if it's happening for no reason is simply dishonest. In terms of their persecution as a group of people, they've brought a lot of it down upon themselves through their actions throughout history and through the actions of certain christian proponents.

PDN

smokingman wrote: »

According to your book, your god let this kind of thing happen.
So when you think about it, you've only your god to blame.

So that makes it OK for you to have a laugh about it? Nice.

Btw, I'm not picking on you because of your atheism, if I heard a Christian mocking the fact of atheists or Muslims being murdered I would hold them in the same level of contempt. There is a level of human decency that does, or at least should, transcend ideological differences.

robindch

PDN wrote: »

[...] when Christians are being murdered in Iraq on a daily basis at least someone finds it funny.

I don't believe that anybody in this forum finds any amusement in seeing one group of religious believers use supremacist religious logic to justify the massacre another group of religious believers.

In fact, I'd have said that the average poster on this forum on this forum would find the activities of these murderers significantly more revolting than the average religious punter would, since most A+A posters implicitly reject the contemptible concept of "martyrdom", or death in the service of an ideology.

Wikipedia suggests that there are something like 165,000 Iraqis who hold beliefs that are broadly "christian".

Do you have any idea where the other 200-300 million that Ratzinger's spokesman talks about who have to "face daily threats of murder, beating, imprisonment and murder"?

robindch

PDN wrote: »

There is a level of human decency that does, or at least should, transcend ideological differences.

That level of decency doesn't appear to extend to islamic monotheists.

PDN

robindch wrote: »

That level of decency doesn't appear to extend to islamic monotheists.

Ah, broad sweeping stereotypes. As you wish.

robindch

PDN wrote: »

Ah, broad sweeping stereotypes. As you wish.

Fair cop -- please let me insert the word "militant" before "islamic" in the previous post.

Though I should stress that this is "militant" in the "guns-n-explosives and an ideology that suggests both" sense of the word, rather than the "disagrees with my superior opinion" sense of the word that's common in religious circles.

fisgon

It is true that some Christians are oppressed in places like the Middle East and in parts of Muslim Africa, especially in muslim countries which don't really allow any religion to practice except Islam,-Iran, Saudi, parts of Iraq, etc.

The irony is, of course, that what would allow this situation to change is SECULARISM! If muslim countries were to secularise then this would open up freedom of conscience and religion, where any belief system could practice freely. This is the whole point of secularism, the very force that Ratzinger hates most.

As for his made up stats and his claims of persecution by the very secularists that would save Christian lives in muslim countries, they should be treated with the contempt they deserve.

Galvasean

There's persecution of Christians, eg: killing them for practicing their beliefs.
Then there's 'persecution' of Christians, eg: disagreeing with their ideologies and making said disagreements known.

Benny seems to lump the two things in as one in the same. he's wrong. one is much much worse. Guess which one...

Knasher

secularism are alike in that both represent extreme forms of a rejection of legitimate pluralism and the principle of secularity.

Tell me that's a misquote or something.

Zillah

Ratzinger wrote:

religious fundamentalism and secularism are alike in that both represent extreme forms of a rejection of legitimate pluralism and the principle of secularity

Secularism is against the principle of secularism? Pope logic.

daily threats of murder, beating, imprisonment and murder

Sigh.



Falun gong is probably the most oppressed religion.

PDN

Zillah wrote: »

Falun gong is probably the most oppressed religion.

In terms of the percentage of them that are persecuted, yes, I think you are right.

In terms of raw numbers - it's hard to see any group that would be persecuted in the numbers experienced by Christians in Iraq, Afghanistan, Saudi Arabia, Turkey, Sudan, Nigeria, North Korea, China, Vietnam, Myanmar, Pakistan, India, Somalia, Indonesia etc.

sponsoredwalk

Herr Ratzinger wrote:

religious fundamentalism and secularism are alike in that both represent extreme forms of a rejection of legitimate pluralism and the principle of secularity

I think this illustrates the beautiful double standard of X-ianity perfectly.
Most christians are basically secular as the rest of us, including the
more ardent ones, but if they get a whiff of that major sin - the sin of
atheism & all the secularism that comes with it - they instantly denounce it.

So while secularism is associated with 100 million graves due to communism
secularity is the most noble thing in the universe (consisting of the
heavens & the earth). The 100 million graves of capitalism has no
association to christianity whatsoever while the 100 million communist
graves highlight the unbreakable bond to baby eaters. Secularity is
living life the way everyone does normally anyway but just not as
one of them secularists.

The fundamental difference between secularism & secularity is there, it
just takes religi-goggles to see it.

monosharp

Is Ratzi talking about all Christians or just the Roman Catholic kind ?

In fairness to the church of Rome and other mainstream christian denominations I have seen discrimination against them in Asia. Not persecution though which I think is a word thrown round far too lightly these days.

I've seen christians, especially catholics refused jobs quite often. Do you want to know who by ? Fundamentalist right wing christian nutjobs who think catholics and other denominations are as 'wrong' as muslims/Buddhists.

I've also seen them been forced (do it or you'll gonna get fired) to sign over a percentage of their monthly pay to the church of their employer.

monosharp

PDN wrote: »

In terms of raw numbers - it's hard to see any group that would be persecuted in the numbers experienced by Christians in Iraq, Afghanistan, Saudi Arabia, Turkey, Sudan, Nigeria, North Korea, China, Vietnam, Myanmar, Pakistan, India, Somalia, Indonesia etc.

Re North Korea, I'm not arguing with you but this is hardly a significant statistic is it ? I can't imagine there's anymore than a handful of Christians up there.

Re China, how is this religious persecution ? If I moved to China tomorrow and set up an organisation whose aims were to meet in my house, drink vodka and discuss the merits of polygamy all night then I would face (or not face) the same repercussions as your house churches would.

It's nothing to do with the religion. It's about the state not wanting independent groups existing without state supervision regardless of what they are about.

It's persecution, it's persecution against freedom as we know it in the West. But it is not religious persecution. To call it such is just disingenuous as you are ignoring all the other groups persecuted for the exact same reason.

The authorities don't give a rats if they are meeting for religious prayer, intellectual conversation or gang-bangs with midgets. The authorities only care how it impacts the state, more specifically civil unrest.

The issue is freedom, not religion.

And need I point out to you again that independent churches in China are quite visible on the streets and have been for some time.

PDN

monosharp wrote:

It's persecution, it's persecution against freedom as we know it in the West. But it is not religious persecution. To call it such is just disingenuous as you are ignoring all the other groups persecuted for the exact same reason.

Did I call it religious persecution? :rolleyes:

Maybe you should listen to what people actually say before you go off on one of your hobby-horse rants?

The issue is freedom, not religion.

And, as the Pope pointed out, the largest group of people who are being persecuted by those who hate freedom are Christians.

(Having said that, I think he's totally nuts in blaming secularism).

And need I point out to you again that independent churches in China are quite visible on the streets and have been for some time.

You don't need to point it out since it is entirely irrelevant to anything I have said - unless you're going to argue that visibility is incompatible with persecution. Are you really wanting to go down that dead end?

monosharp

PDN wrote: »

Did I call it religious persecution? :rolleyes:

Maybe you should listen to what people actually say before you go off on one of your hobby-horse rants?

Ok then you said it was Christians getting persecuted.

And my point stands. You are been disingenuous here. They are not been persecuted because they are Christian, they are been persecuted because part of what they do is against the state policy of civil control.

It's like saying that black people in the 50's USA were discriminated against because they were Christian.

Their religion has naught to do with it and you know it and yet you continuously try to spread this propaganda here on boards.

You phrased the above in such a way to make people think they were been persecuted because they were Christian and it's not the first time you've done it. Your hobby horse rant of choice I believe.

getz

and there is me believing it was the jews

PDN

monosharp wrote: »

Ok then you said it was Christians getting persecuted.

And my point stands. You are been disingenuous here. They are not been persecuted because they are Christian, they are been persecuted because part of what they do is against the state policy of civil control.

So, on the planet where you live it is disingenuous for me to state a fact (Christians are being persecuted in various countries) unless I also stress that the primary reasons for that persecution in a particular one of the fourteen countries which I mentioned are not religious (even though I hadn't mentioned the motivation and, without being a mindreader and a fortune teller, could not have predicted that you were thinking of such an issue or were going to raise it)? Planet Monosharp is evidently a strange and wonderful place.

It's like saying that black people in the 50's USA were discriminated against because they were Christian.

Well it's nothing like it at all, since I never mentioned the motivation behind the persecution. But, hey, if introducing random and irrelevant references to to blacks in the USA is your thing then way to go! It's a free country.

Their religion has naught to do with it and you know it and yet you continuously try to spread this propaganda here on boards.

Actually I didn't spread any propaganda. I stated a fact that Christians are being persecuted, and I gave fourteen countries as examples.

Now you obviously feel the need to discuss the reasons for that persecution, which you are free to do so, but I'm really at a loss as to why you're making false allegations about me.

So your position is that Christians are being persecuted, but you want to stress that religion has nothing to do with it. So even if the guys in China were not Christians, but still chose to meet in churches and pray to God and read from the Bible then they would be persecuted anyway? Er, OK, if you think that's a point worth making then all power to your elbow!

You phrased the above in such a way to make people think they were been persecuted because they were Christian and it's not the first time you've done it.

No, I simply stated they were being persecuted. Everything else you think I said is, sadly, in your own head.

So Christians are being persecuted in Iraq, Afghanistan, Saudi Arabia, Turkey, Sudan, Nigeria, North Korea, China, Vietnam, Myanmar, Pakistan, India, Somalia, Indonesia etc - but it's all just a massive coincidence. They're unlucky enough to be in the wrong place at the wrong time, but they're not being persecuted because they're Christians.

To quote Santa, "Ho! Ho! Ho!"

PDN

getz wrote: »

and there is me believing it was the jews

Ah, but they're not being persecuted because they're Jews!

monosharp

PDN wrote: »

Well it's nothing like it at all, since I never mentioned the motivation behind the persecution. But, hey, if introducing random and irrelevant references to to blacks in the USA is your thing then way to go! It's a free country.

No you didn't but let's ask someone else here reading it shall we ?

Can someone else here who was reading this thread please tell us when after PDN's post you believe it insinuated that they were been persecuted for been Christian or not ?

Actually I didn't spread any propaganda. I stated a fact that Christians are being persecuted, and I gave fourteen countries as examples.

Where you insinuated the reason was their Christianity.

Now you obviously feel the need to discuss the reasons for that persecution, which you are free to do so, but I'm really at a loss as to why you're making false allegations about me.

Because you have continuously misrepresented the situation in China here and on the other forum.

No, I simply stated they were being persecuted. Everything else you think I said is, sadly, in your own head.

So why say they were Christian at all ? Is it any less wrong if they were Muslim ? If they were Atheist ?

getz

PDN wrote: »

Ah, but they're not being persecuted because they're Jews!

recently the catholic church tried blaimed the jewish lobby in the US for making a big deal about the churches child abuses,

sensibleken

why does anyone care what this guy has to say? He's an 84 year old man whos best friend is a jewish zombie whos da lives on a cloud. he says a lot of things, he says he has a magic chair where he cant be wrong when he sits on it.

sorry, i know I could have given a rational counter arguement but if that was my grandad or any of the ould fellas i drink with id just wait for one of the other lads to say 'ah, you cant think like that anymore' and then get them another pint

PDN

getz wrote: »

recently the catholic church tried blaimed the jewish lobby in the US for making a big deal about the churches child abuses,

While that would be extremely stupid of them, it hardly amounts to persecution, does it?

But I can find no source quoting the Vatican to blame 'the Jewish lobby' for the child abuse furore. Do you have a source for this remarkable claim?

PDN

monosharp wrote: »

No you didn't but let's ask someone else here reading it shall we ?

Can someone else here who was reading this thread please tell us when after PDN's post you believe it insinuated that they were been persecuted for been Christian or not ?

"Help, I can't quote PDN saying anything remotely like what I claimed he said. Can any other atheists here, in the Atheist and Agnosticism forum, back me up by saying you believe he was really thinking it even though he never said it?"

Jeez, I understand group solidarity and all that, but don't you think that's a rather pathetic scraping of the bottom of the barrel?

Where you insinuated the reason was their Christianity

Only in your head. I certainly never stated anything in this thread other than that Christians probably compose, in numerical terms, the largest group of people being persecuted in the world today. I cannot be held responsible for the marvellous things that occur in your imagination.

Because you have continuously misrepresented the situation in China here and on the other forum.

I can't comment on anything that has been discussed 'in the other forum' because that would be against the Charter of this forum.

Maybe you should address what I actually post in this thread in this forum?

So why say they were Christian at all ? Is it any less wrong if they were Muslim ? If they were Atheist ?

Now, you've really jumped the shark. I've consistently stated (including in post number 22 of this thread) that common human decency should abhor the persecution of anyone, including atheists or Muslims.

If Christians compose the largest group of people currently facing persecution today, then I fail to see what is wrong with stating that fact. Would you prefer it if we all resolutely ignored that fact for monosharp's sake, so as not to accidentally trigger something in your imagination about what you think we might be implying?

getz

PDN wrote: »

While that would be extremely stupid of them, it hardly amounts to persecution, does it?

But I can find no source quoting the Vatican to blame 'the Jewish lobby' for the child abuse furore. Do you have a source for this remarkable claim?

try www.religiongonecrazy.com/crazy-bishop-blaims-crazy-jews-for-criticism-of-catholic-church-record-on-abuse/

PDN

getz wrote: »

try www.religiongonecrazy.com/crazy-bishop-blaims-crazy-jews-for-criticism-of-catholic-church-record-on-abuse/

I did try it. It says:

404: Page Not Found

We are terribly sorry, but the URL you typed no longer exists. It might have been moved or deleted, or perhaps you mistyped it. We suggest searching the site:

robindch

PDN wrote: »

I stated a fact that Christians are being persecuted, and I gave fourteen countries as examples.

If you go back to the original post, you'll see that a much more specific question was being asked.

Nobody is denying that groups of political supremacists are attacking other groups of political supremacists in many countries. This is, frankly, inevitable given the way that these supremacists set themselves up as much to differentiate themselves from impure outsiders, as to declare themselves free from taint.

The question that I asked was whether people had witnessed unprovoked attacks, especially to the level that Ratzinger's spokesman claimed. Which is the quite extraordinary claim that that something like 625 million people -- almost 10% of the world's population -- are suffering either discrimination or violence on a daily basis.

If some guy, especially a leading christian like Ratzinger, is declaring "persecution" on such a massive scale, it's up to him to back up his figures with solid, fair evidence. So far he hasn't, and neither the Vatican nor it seems, any other christian group, seems to have any interest in doing so.

In these circumstances, you can perhaps understand why people might start to get tired of hearing the Vatican's unsupported claims.

nozzferrahhtoo

I would not call it persecution. If you express certainty on a subject that you have literally not got the first piece of data to support you will eventually get called out on it. Sometimes this will happen quickly. Sometimes the canard will last for years or even centuries. Eventually it will be spotted. People are now starting to spot it.

People who get away with it for awhile however really tend to panic when they are finally caught out, and calling out things like “persecution” and “intolerance” is simply a knee jerk reaction to the panic of thinking “People are not falling for this stuff anymore, now what???”

Then again it may be just that the pope is bad at maths though and does not understand increasingly proportionality. If two groups are experiencing persecution and one group is 5 times bigger than the other, it is likely you will find 5 times more persecution of the bigger group in line with this. Maybe the pope quite simply does not realise this and could do with a course in basic statistical maths? I'd be happy to give it to him pro bono.

monosharp

PDN wrote: »

"Help, I can't quote PDN saying anything remotely like what I claimed he said. Can any other atheists here, in the Atheist and Agnosticism forum, back me up by saying you believe he was really thinking it even though he never said it?"

Ha! Says the man who exited the last thread never to be seen again where we talked about this when you were shown to be misrepresenting what the Chinese government was saying.

What you said is exactly the same as someone saying Muslims were attacked on 9/11 because some of the people working in the twin towers were muslim. Your statement is exactly the same as claiming that christians were persecuted in the US in the 1950's (over race).

Making a statement like 'Christians are persecuted in China' immediately insinuates that it is because they are Christian by the wording of the sentence and you can't wriggle your way out of it.

Jeez, I understand group solidarity and all that, but don't you think that's a rather pathetic scraping of the bottom of the barrel?

I won't even bother lowering myself to your level.

Now, you've really jumped the shark. I've consistently stated (including in post number 22 of this thread) that common human decency should abhor the persecution of anyone, including atheists or Muslims.

Yet you fail to point out that there are hundreds of thousands of Christians in china who face absolutely no persecution. You purposely insinuate that Christians are been persecuted in China for been christian.

robindch

PDN wrote: »

I can find no source quoting the Vatican to blame 'the Jewish lobby' for the child abuse furore. Do you have a source for this remarkable claim?

At the time the claim was made, it was quite widely reported. Try here:

http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2010/04/12/bishop_blames_pedophilia_jews_open2010

Interesting, if sad, to see the article referencing a prominent scholar who claims that it's the jewish population which is facing genocidal threats.

I'm tempted to google for claims from the islamic side that it's really them that are being persecuted.

PDN

monosharp wrote: »

Ha! Says the man who exited the last thread never to be seen again where we talked about this when you were shown to be misrepresenting what the Chinese government was saying.

I don't remember discussing this with you in this forum before. Or are you still trying to discuss other fora?

What you said is exactly the same as someone saying Muslims were attacked on 9/11 because some of the people working in the twin towers were muslim. Your statement is exactly the same as claiming that christians were persecuted in the US in the 1950's (over race).

More irrelevant twaddle. I've made no statement as to why Christians are persecuted in the 14 countries I referred to. I've certainly not mentioned 9/11.

Making a statement like 'Christians are persecuted in China' immediately insinuates that it is because they are Christian by the wording of the sentence and you can't wriggle your way out of it.

Logic obviously isn't your strong point.

If I say, "Jaguars are being killed in the Amazon basin" then I am making a statement about the dangers to Jaguars. I am not implying anything as to the reasons why they are being killed. They may be killed purely because they are jaguars, or they may be killed because loggers are destroying their habitat - but my statement does not adress that issue.

Yet you fail to point out that there are hundreds of thousands of Christians in china who face absolutely no persecution.

I'll be honest, I'm really struggling here. It really isn't easy to deal with such muddle-headed questions without honestly expressing my opinion and thus breaching the Charter.

Nowhere have I ever claimed that all Christians in a particular country (let alone in all the 14 examples I cited) are being persecuted.

You purposely insinuate that Christians are been persecuted in China for been christian.

Once again, I can only defend or address what I've actually said, not what you imagine that I might be thinking.