Ratzinger - "Christians most persecuted religious group in the world"

robindch

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2010/1216/breaking47.html

Ratzinger has issued a fairly strongly worded statement on the Vatican's "World Day of Peace", saying that christians are the most persecuted religious group in the world. Unbiased, sourced statistics, needless to say, are thin on the ground, but this hasn't stopped him from claiming thusly:

Ratzinger wrote:

The same determination that condemns every form of fanaticism and religious fundamentalism must also oppose every form of hostility to religion that would restrict the public role of believers in civil and political life [...] It should be clear that religious fundamentalism and secularism are alike in that both represent extreme forms of a rejection of legitimate pluralism and the principle of secularity.

A spokesman further clarified:

Some Guy wrote:

[...between 200 million and 300 million Christians...] face daily threats of murder, beating, imprisonment and murder and a further 350-400 million encounter discrimination in areas such as jobs and housing.

Feelings of persecution are nothing new to christianity -- in fact, persecution is almost a central dogma -- but I have to say that I'm finding Ratzinger's tone increasingly unhelpful, narky and paranoid, and it's beginning to bug me.

Has anybody here actually witnessed anything that they could fairly call unprovoked "persecution"?

Lab_Mouse

I think he has a pain in his hole with 'militant atheists' or people who are willing to point out BS when they see/hear it.From that point of view I would say he feels his dogma is being persecuted

Teclo

robindch wrote: »

Has anybody here actually witnessed anything that they could fairly call unprovoked "persecution"?

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/39945190/ns/world_news-mideast/n_africa/

Darlughda

Awww. Diddums.

Well, what goes around comes around.

Makes a change from the Middle ages, when christians were the most persecuting religious group in the world.

smokingman

Won't someone please think of the christians!
Must be terrible for them being attacked and mocked so much. I hear they were very insulted lately by some upstart crowd looking for details of why they protected very holy child rapists....the cheek!

Knasher

I think perhaps he is confused of the difference between being persecuted and being christian against being persecuted because your christian.

Galvasean

I was going to say Muslims are the most persecuted, but most of that is persecution is by other Muslims.

Teclo

Darlughda wrote: »

Awww. Diddums.

Well, what goes around comes around.

Makes a change from the Middle ages, when christians were the most persecuting religious group in the world.

You are an idiot. But at least you show others how deranged atheists can be.

Nodin

Galvasean wrote: »

I was going to say Muslims are the most persecuted, but most of that is persecution is by other Muslims.

Sunni on Shia mostly, with a bit of Sunni v Alevi for good measure..still persecution though.

2Scoops

There's some genuine persecution of Christians in the ME and Africa... which makes it all the more bizarre that the Pope would reserve his "strongest words" for the "creeping secularism" in Europe.

Secularism: it's sh1t, isn't? Being fair to everyone, like. :mad::pac:

strobe

Teclo wrote: »

You are an idiot. But at least you show others how deranged atheists can be.

Yeehaaw! We've got a live one.

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

who else would be the most persecuted religious group? scientologists?

it more than likely is the christians.

GLaDOS

Oh you all knew it was coming

smk89

strobe wrote: »

Yeehaaw! We've got a live one.

Quickly! Get the exorcism tongs!

Darlughda

Teclo wrote: »

You are an idiot. But at least you show others how deranged atheists can be.

Gosh. History wasn't your strong point in school then.:D

Improbable

When one of the most powerful organisations in the world (religious and not) is claiming that they are being persecuted, what they mean in reality is that the rest of the world is no longer putting up with their bovine excrement and they're upset about it. They'd politely ask us to stop the "persecution" and allow them to go about doing whatever they want under the cloak of religious freedom, even if what they're doing is not only criminal but morally abhorrent.

Well, if I am persecuted for being a practicing Catholic, it won't stop me from praying for those who persecute me or the Church to which I belong! (Matthew 5:44)

Free prayers for everyone! :pac:

PDN

smokingman wrote: »

Won't someone please think of the christians!
Must be terrible for them being attacked and mocked so much. I hear they were very insulted lately by some upstart crowd looking for details of why they protected very holy child rapists....the cheek!

Ah well, when Christians are being murdered in Iraq on a daily basis at least someone finds it funny.

Here, have a real giggle at this:

robindch

Teclo wrote: »

You are an idiot.

And you are a visitor to the forum, so our unwritten "those-unfamiliar-with-the-rules" rules apply.

FYI - direct personal insults are off-limits, so please bear this in mind when posting, lest you feel the chill prod of the forum's thunderstick.

smokingman

PDN wrote: »

Ah well, when Christians are being murdered in Iraq on a daily basis at least someone finds it funny.

Here, have a real giggle at this

According to your book, your god let this kind of thing happen.
So when you think about it, you've only your god to blame.

Improbable

smokingman wrote: »

According to your book, your god let this kind of thing happen.
So when you think about it, you've only your god to blame.

In fairness, it's nothing to do with the validity of the religion but the persecution of a group of people. In more recent history, it has been the case that christians have enjoyed a great deal of power. From crusades to forced conversion of indigenous people to persecution of other religions, it can't be said that christianity has been a shining beacon of good throughout history. It's not right because I'd wager that most of those people were good people and they didn't deserve to die. I grieve for their families. But for the pope to make such a statement as if it's happening for no reason is simply dishonest. In terms of their persecution as a group of people, they've brought a lot of it down upon themselves through their actions throughout history and through the actions of certain christian proponents.

PDN

smokingman wrote: »

According to your book, your god let this kind of thing happen.
So when you think about it, you've only your god to blame.

So that makes it OK for you to have a laugh about it? Nice.

Btw, I'm not picking on you because of your atheism, if I heard a Christian mocking the fact of atheists or Muslims being murdered I would hold them in the same level of contempt. There is a level of human decency that does, or at least should, transcend ideological differences.

robindch

PDN wrote: »

[...] when Christians are being murdered in Iraq on a daily basis at least someone finds it funny.

I don't believe that anybody in this forum finds any amusement in seeing one group of religious believers use supremacist religious logic to justify the massacre another group of religious believers.

In fact, I'd have said that the average poster on this forum on this forum would find the activities of these murderers significantly more revolting than the average religious punter would, since most A+A posters implicitly reject the contemptible concept of "martyrdom", or death in the service of an ideology.

Wikipedia suggests that there are something like 165,000 Iraqis who hold beliefs that are broadly "christian".

Do you have any idea where the other 200-300 million that Ratzinger's spokesman talks about who have to "face daily threats of murder, beating, imprisonment and murder"?

robindch

PDN wrote: »

There is a level of human decency that does, or at least should, transcend ideological differences.

That level of decency doesn't appear to extend to islamic monotheists.

PDN

robindch wrote: »

That level of decency doesn't appear to extend to islamic monotheists.

Ah, broad sweeping stereotypes. As you wish.

robindch

PDN wrote: »

Ah, broad sweeping stereotypes. As you wish.

Fair cop -- please let me insert the word "militant" before "islamic" in the previous post.

Though I should stress that this is "militant" in the "guns-n-explosives and an ideology that suggests both" sense of the word, rather than the "disagrees with my superior opinion" sense of the word that's common in religious circles.

fisgon

It is true that some Christians are oppressed in places like the Middle East and in parts of Muslim Africa, especially in muslim countries which don't really allow any religion to practice except Islam,-Iran, Saudi, parts of Iraq, etc.

The irony is, of course, that what would allow this situation to change is SECULARISM! If muslim countries were to secularise then this would open up freedom of conscience and religion, where any belief system could practice freely. This is the whole point of secularism, the very force that Ratzinger hates most.

As for his made up stats and his claims of persecution by the very secularists that would save Christian lives in muslim countries, they should be treated with the contempt they deserve.

Galvasean

There's persecution of Christians, eg: killing them for practicing their beliefs.
Then there's 'persecution' of Christians, eg: disagreeing with their ideologies and making said disagreements known.

Benny seems to lump the two things in as one in the same. he's wrong. one is much much worse. Guess which one...

Knasher

secularism are alike in that both represent extreme forms of a rejection of legitimate pluralism and the principle of secularity.

Tell me that's a misquote or something.

Zillah

Ratzinger wrote:

religious fundamentalism and secularism are alike in that both represent extreme forms of a rejection of legitimate pluralism and the principle of secularity

Secularism is against the principle of secularism? Pope logic.

daily threats of murder, beating, imprisonment and murder

Sigh.



Falun gong is probably the most oppressed religion.

PDN

Zillah wrote: »

Falun gong is probably the most oppressed religion.

In terms of the percentage of them that are persecuted, yes, I think you are right.

In terms of raw numbers - it's hard to see any group that would be persecuted in the numbers experienced by Christians in Iraq, Afghanistan, Saudi Arabia, Turkey, Sudan, Nigeria, North Korea, China, Vietnam, Myanmar, Pakistan, India, Somalia, Indonesia etc.