selecting the right bull!

defadman · 15-12-2010 05:37PM #1

currently i am using a charlaois bull (HWN). He is an easy calving bull and breeds nice calves. however, I feel i could breed beither calves using another bull yet, still retainig easy calving traits. I was considering using the new bull by NCBC cottage devon. do ye have any sugggestions to which bull i should choose. I want charlaois bulls only though!

vanderbadger · 15-12-2010 06:16PM

defadman wrote: »

currently i am using a charlaois bull (HWN). He is an easy calving bull and breeds nice calves. however, I feel i could breed beither calves using another bull yet, still retainig easy calving traits. I was considering using the new bull by NCBC cottage devon. do ye have any sugggestions to which bull i should choose. I want charlaois bulls only though!

in fairnes it should be hard to beat him, cottage devon, on paper at least he is a super bull, have a purebred bull this year from roundhill doc (rhi ) and he seems an nice calf, have the same cow just ai'd to cloverfield excellent (cxy), both are young bulls so maybe i should have gone with something more tried and tested but sure anyway

Shauny2010 · 15-12-2010 06:38PM

Cottage devon has impressive figures all right. there was a purebred offspring of his at the last Charolais sale in Ennis last month
To me he looked small although nicely made but small.

pakalasa · 15-12-2010 06:52PM

OP. I'm in the same boat as yerself. I've been using HWN all along. He's a great bull, in fairness. I used Pirate (PTE) once or twice also.
I used CF85 too last year, but no calves born yet. His figures are very similar to HWN.

I see the new proofs for Dec 2010 are up now on www.icbf.com.
Cottage Devon is coming at 18.7% calving (40% rel). That makes him hard calving in my books. Pity, great looking bull.

CF61 is a decent looking bull too, easy calving and good on maternal side of things.

leg wax · 15-12-2010 07:26PM

tullygarley alibaba is throwing some fantastic stock his code is s741 but i dont know how he is for calving difficulty.

bogman_bass · 15-12-2010 07:38PM

Shauny2010 wrote: »

Cottage devon has impressive figures all right. there was a purebred offspring of his at the last Charolais sale in Ennis last month
To me he looked small although nicely made but small.

unless it came from the same farm I'd question that. he only satrted producing straws in april or may this year

Shauny2010 · 15-12-2010 07:50PM

bogman_bass wrote: »

unless it came from the same farm I'd question that. he only satrted producing straws in april or may this year

Im afraid your right, the bull I was looking at was out of Cottage scott

pakalasa · 15-12-2010 08:19PM

You know Goldstar Echo (GHX), another Texan-Gie son might turn out to be a better bull than Cottage Devon. He's easier calving at 11.8% (37% Rel). He's out of a CF52 cow too.

Both bulls are available from NCBC.

adne · 15-12-2010 08:30PM

pakalasa wrote: »

OP. I'm in the same boat as yerself. I've been using HWN all along. He's a great bull, in fairness. I used Pirate (PTE) once or twice also.
I used CF85 too last year, but no calves born yet. His figures are very similar to HWN.

I see the new proofs for Dec 2010 are up now on www.icbf.com.
Cottage Devon is coming at 18.7% calving (40% rel). That makes him hard calving in my books. Pity, great looking bull.

CF61 is a decent looking bull too, easy calving and good on maternal side of things.

Is HWN gone, he was a cracking bull. Let me know how the CF85s turns out.....

vanderbadger · 15-12-2010 09:45PM

pakalasa wrote: »

OP. I'm in the same boat as yerself. I've been using HWN all along. He's a great bull, in fairness. I used Pirate (PTE) once or twice also.
I used CF85 too last year, but no calves born yet. His figures are very similar to HWN.

I see the new proofs for Dec 2010 are up now on www.icbf.com.
Cottage Devon is coming at 18.7% calving (40% rel). That makes him hard calving in my books. Pity, great looking bull.

CF61 is a decent looking bull too, easy calving and good on maternal side of things.

do you sell them as weanlings Pak? would you not try a few blue bulls since you are using ai anyway and the market seems to be keener on the muscle cattle?

pakalasa · 15-12-2010 10:08PM

vanderbadger wrote: »

do you sell them as weanlings Pak? would you not try a few blue bulls since you are using ai anyway and the market seems to be keener on the muscle cattle?

I tried one BB last year, FHZ on a black Lim cow. Just as a test really. Weanling bull, only average to be honest. I reckon you need a bit of muscle on the cow side too. I notice, the 2010/11 NCBC catalogue recommends using him on 3/4 Lim cows. I've used him on a few more cows this year, so we'll see.
I think to get the really top BB weanlings you need to be using the likes of OVO, BYU,DEP etc. These are all hard calving, not ideal for a part-timer.

Hard to beat the charolais cross. That's what i like about the HWN calves, even if they dont turn out fancy. They've always great frames and look like they will grow away to big weights. Just what the Irish market wants.
As far as I know, HWN is still going strong.

vanderbadger · 15-12-2010 10:24PM

pakalasa wrote: »

I tried one BB last year, FHZ on a black Lim cow. Just as a test really. Weanling bull, only average to be honest. I reckon you need a bit of muscle on the cow side too. I notice, the 2010/11 NCBC catalogue recommends using him on 3/4 Lim cows. I've used him on a few more cows this year, so we'll see.
I think to get the really top BB weanlings you need to be using the likes of OVO, BYU,DEP etc. These are all hard calving, not ideal for a part-timer.

Hard to beat the charolais cross. That's what i like about the HWN calves, even if they dont turn out fancy. They've always great frames and look like they will grow away to big weights. Just what the Irish market wants.
As far as I know, HWN is still going strong.

tried a few last year as well
have 2 blues so far outta dovea bull bbq, very easy calfer now, didnt have to go near cows, they are nice calves, have a good bit more muscle than a char calf so will be interesting to see how they go

bogman_bass · 15-12-2010 10:47PM

adne wrote: »

Is HWN gone, he was a cracking bull. Let me know how the CF85s turns out.....

no he can still be got.

great bull. very under rated IMO

Muckit · 16-12-2010 01:41PM

Had a '06 PB char heifer calve to HWN last february. Hard calved I found, big long calf, he was half reared. Unfortunately after a week of stomach tubing and messing he died, gutted:rolleyes: Would have made some bull I reckon.

As oul' lad says, 'where you've livestock, you'I have dead stock'

defadman · 16-12-2010 06:35PM

i pick charlaois because they are easier calved. too many use belgian blues thinkingf theyll have a great calf, when more than likely they will have a caesarian section and thats 200 euro down, straight away. the operation is not always succesful awell with various complications and this causes reduced fertility in the cow.

leg wax · 16-12-2010 08:00PM

defadman wrote: »

i pick charlaois because they are easier calved. too many use belgian blues thinkingf theyll have a great calf, when more than likely they will have a caesarian section and thats 200 euro down, straight away. the operation is not always succesful awell with various complications and this causes reduced fertility in the cow.

please talk about something that you know about.iwas cross when i saw this but then i saw that you started the thread selecting the right bull now i see you really do need help.

ellewood · 16-12-2010 08:16PM

hes right, i know you are calving blues with great sucess and fair play to you but its not for everybody
charolais like him which are easy calving and have great figures are what most part time farmers should be using - live calf every year from a handy cow i sold 2 calves from him today born mid march 490 kgs and 940.00 in the bank each not bad going or a blue bull and if everything's not 100% you have a far greater chance of sections ect and you get the magic 1000 for em i know which system will leave more profit more often...
in 08 that bull was 3rd on list for sbv and most of the young bulls above him now have low reliability - ive used him a lot last few years but im like the poster i taught i could do better so ive used some klu and ada this year so weel see?

leg wax · 16-12-2010 08:26PM

ellewood wrote: »

hes right, i know you are calving blues with great sucess and fair play to you but its not for everybody
charolais like him which are easy calving and have great figures are what most part time farmers should be using - live calf every year from a handy cow i sold 2 calves from him today born mid march 490 kgs and 940.00 in the bank each not bad going or a blue bull and if everything's not 100% you have a far greater chance of sections ect and you get the magic 1000 for em i know which system will leave more profit more often...
in 08 that bull was 3rd on list for sbv and most of the young bulls above him now have low reliability - ive used him a lot last few years but im like the poster i taught i could do better so ive used some klu and ada this year so weel see?

what would the % figure be for sections on crossbred stock bb v ch, takeing out all pedigree on both sides and stock that are especialy breed for showing as in the winter fair cattle.also what % of calves born are dead for both breeds.

ellewood · 16-12-2010 08:42PM

dont know % but hwn is about 7% calving diff which means that 7% of scores back to icbf are with a calving score of 3 or 4 so he will have some calving problems they havent bred a bull yet that will give 100% no calving problems

im not saying charolais or limo or simm are all going to be easy calving but if youre not 100% on top of youre game the blues are going to be harder calved ie if you have a cow incalf to hwn and she is a condition score of 4 and shes given ad lib silage for the winter before she calves she probobly will still calf unaided no problem do the same for a cow incalf to a bb and what do you get?

any farmers i know using a charolais bull and most are stock bulls have very few calving problems and some are bulls with hard calving in their breeding ie cf52

defadman · 16-12-2010 09:02PM

finally, a person talking some common sense. i agree 100% with you. i am a part time farmer and charlaois bulls suit my regime far better. All you need to do is ask your local vet. 9 times out of ten he will discourage you using blues. It is no wonder that charlaois are the most popular breed throughout europe!

leg wax · 16-12-2010 09:07PM

ellewood wrote: »

dont know % but hwn is about 7% calving diff which means that 7% of scores back to icbf are with a calving score of 3 or 4 so he will have some calving problems they havent bred a bull yet that will give 100% no calving problems

im not saying charolais or limo or simm are all going to be easy calving but if youre not 100% on top of youre game the blues are going to be harder calved ie if you have a cow incalf to hwn and she is a condition score of 4 and shes given ad lib silage for the winter before she calves she probobly will still calf unaided no problem do the same for a cow incalf to a bb and what do you get?

any farmers i know using a charolais bull and most are stock bulls have very few calving problems and some are bulls with hard calving in their breeding ie cf52

this is my point put a cow in the same condition with a selected blue bull like sfl she will do the same you can select a charolais bull by code for easy scores why not a blue,they are no different than ch with hard bulls why dont you all use sgo on your cows, its like me i would not use ovo on my cows.

vanderbadger · 16-12-2010 09:19PM

defadman wrote: »

finally, a person talking some common sense. i agree 100% with you. i am a part time farmer and charlaois bulls suit my regime far better. All you need to do is ask your local vet. 9 times out of ten he will discourage you using blues. It is no wonder that charlaois are the most popular breed throughout europe!

by all means go with the charolais, we have bred nothing else on this farm for years and couldnt fault them but have 3 blues now from ai just really caus i wanted to try something different, the first ones ever on this farm, all unassisted, calved alot easier than some chars from our own bull so I wouldnt tar all blues with the same brush. have another 4 or five cows to calf to blues also and 2 of them are first timer calvers..im also a part time farmer and I dont need hassle with tough calving but so far ive been impressed with the and am considering buy a blue bull myself so at some stage

ellewood · 16-12-2010 09:35PM

leg wax wrote: »

this is my point put a cow in the same condition with a selected blue bull like sfl she will do the same you can select a charolais bull by code for easy scores why not a blue,they are no different than ch with hard bulls why dont you all use sgo on your cows, its like me i would not use ovo on my cows.

im not disagreeing with you at all the only point im making is that with hwm you can have a very good calf with very few calving problems still have a good heavy weanling to sell plus his maternal traits are excellent if you get a hfr calf which is same for blues lim or sim ect- if you select the right bull for calving traits whichever breed it does help, the point im making if you use hwn or the likes it makes it much easier to manage ie not seperating and feeding to condition score not feeding hay all the things lads with blues say they have to do to reduce calving difficulty put em all in calf to hwn - feed them all the same - silage ad lib 1 shed 1 feed passage ect no bother, calf no bother, good weanling no bother basically you wont have the flashey weanling but you will have weanlings that havent cost a fortune to get to that point and you have an easy system that leaves a profit

leg wax · 16-12-2010 09:37PM

defadman wrote: »

finally, a person talking some common sense. i agree 100% with you. i am a part time farmer and charlaois bulls suit my regime far better. All you need to do is ask your local vet. 9 times out of ten he will discourage you using blues. It is no wonder that charlaois are the most popular breed throughout europe!

you use a easy ch bull why. dose it not jump into your head to use a easy blue.

leg wax · 16-12-2010 09:44PM

ellewood wrote: »

im not disagreeing with you at all the only point im making is that with hwm you can have a very good calf with very few calving problems still have a good heavy weanling to sell plus his maternal traits are excellent if you get a hfr calf which is same for blues lim or sim ect- if you select the right bull for calving traits whichever breed it does help, the point im making if you use hwn or the likes it makes it much easier to manage ie not seperating and feeding to condition score not feeding hay all the things lads with blues say they have to do to reduce calving difficulty put em all in calf to hwn - feed them all the same - silage ad lib 1 shed 1 feed passage ect no bother, calf no bother, good weanling no bother basically you wont have the flashey weanling but you will have weanlings that havent cost a fortune to get to that point and you have an easy system that leaves a profit

but you are still implying that if we went head to head with hwm v sfl that you would have fewer problems,sfl is suitable for heifers .sorry the bottle of merlot is kicking in enjoying this anyway.

ellewood · 16-12-2010 10:06PM

Hwn
sbv 5 star E135 99%rel
wean 5 star
beef 5 star

sfl
sbv 3 star E90
wean 2 star
beef 1 star

on paper hwn is just as easy calving but a better bull, but hey thats on paper real life could be different..
enjoy the merlo

pakalasa · 17-12-2010 08:30AM

Well, great to see people having faith in the ICBF figures.
I was looking through the Dec 2010 proofs and one thing struck me.
The BB bull DEP has very good Maternal Calving. How his Direct calving is high at 20.53% but Maternal Calving is 7.09% (71% Rel). That's 90% within the breed and 34% across breeds.

It would be a great way of breeding 3/4 BB's by normal calving. First breed easy calving cows to DEP and then use the heifers for breeding.

Anybody have DEP heifers?

Oh, and another thing. BB's are very common down in Wexford (Legwax & co). Wouldn't have anything to do with all the fine weather would it? Different climate altogether on the exposed west coast.

vanderbadger · 17-12-2010 08:49AM

pakalasa wrote: »

Well, great to see people having faith in the ICBF figures.
I was looking through the Dec 2010 proofs and one thing struck me.
The BB bull DEP has very good Maternal Calving. How his Direct calving is high at 20.53% but Maternal Calving is 7.09% (71% Rel). That's 90% within the breed and 34% across breeds.

It would be a great way of breeding 3/4 BB's by normal calving. First breed easy calving cows to DEP and then use the heifers for breeding.

Anybody have DEP heifers?

Oh, and another thing. BB's are very common down in Wexford (Legwax & co). Wouldn't have anything to do with all the fine weather would it? Different climate altogether on the exposed west coast.

i would take the advice of ai man before the figures

bogman_bass · 17-12-2010 03:11PM

Rather pull a blue calf than a char.
a ch is all bone whyile the blue is muscle ant at least that will "give" when pulling

pakalasa · 17-12-2010 03:23PM

bogman_bass wrote: »

Rather pull a blue calf than a char.
a ch is all bone whyile the blue is muscle ant at least that will "give" when pulling

That's true. I don't think restricting the cow for 6 weeks pre-calving will help that much either. It's the fleshyness (??) that you're taking off the calf, not the bone.
That's why HWN is so easy calving, calves are very long rather than wide at the hips, if you know what I mean.

Bigbird1 · 17-12-2010 10:36PM

ellewood wrote: »

hes right, i know you are calving blues with great sucess and fair play to you but its not for everybody
charolais like him which are easy calving and have great figures are what most part time farmers should be using - live calf every year from a handy cow i sold 2 calves from him today born mid march 490 kgs and 940.00 in the bank each not bad going or a blue bull and if everything's not 100% you have a far greater chance of sections ect and you get the magic 1000 for em i know which system will leave more profit more often...
in 08 that bull was 3rd on list for sbv and most of the young bulls above him now have low reliability - ive used him a lot last few years but im like the poster i taught i could do better so ive used some klu and ada this year so weel see?

This is great weight for your calves what type cows were dey from and were dey getting much meal..

On bull selection i have very good success with the charolais MOZART(MZT) hes not too hard calved and they have super bone and shape,but like HWN there was never much about him, i think AI companys have to boast about certain bulls from a marketing point of view. Limkiln bosco(KIB) is a bull they talked a lot about and it likely helped there sales,Nice stuff from this bull hard calved tho at 14.5%. CF85 meant to be breeding very well too.
As for Cottage Devon theres nothin from him yet but his sire Texan-G was not a hard calved bull,but his dams sire is oscar who was more on difficult side,,Outstanding looking bull but Time will tell

selecting the right bull!

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