What do you think of the US Ambassador's comments about graduates in Ireland?

andrewire · 16-12-2010 10:34PM #1

Context:

The United States bluntly told the Republic's government that Ireland's education policies were not providing US firms with enough quality graduates.

Read more: http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/republic-of-ireland/us-complained-to-irish-pm-about-quality-of-graduates-15031578.html#ixzz18JgkLijl

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Do you agree or disagree with that comment? I personally think he's right. I think some (not all) colleges and universities do not challenge you intellectually, they just limit themselves to 'teach the program' and that's it. It seems there's more emphasis on guidelines than actual learning. My personal experience tells me lecturers are more concerned about external examiners than what you learn in the classroom. For example, most of my lecturers always say: 'An examiner won't like that type of answer', etc. Is it all about my learning experience and not what the examiner will think?

orourkeda · 16-12-2010 10:37PM

Perhaps they should f*ck off and hire their own graduates then

digme · 16-12-2010 10:38PM

andrewire wrote: »

Context:
The United States bluntly told the Republic's government that Ireland's education policies were not providing US firms with enough quality graduates.

Read more: http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/republic-of-ireland/us-complained-to-irish-pm-about-quality-of-graduates-15031578.html#ixzz18JgkLijl

----

Do you agree or disagree with that comment? I personally think he's right. I think some (not all) colleges and universities do not challenge you intellectually, they just limit themselves to 'teach the program' and that's it. It seems there's more emphasis on guidelines than actual learning. My personal experience tells me lecturers are more concerned about external examiners than what you learn in the classroom. For example, most of my lecturers always say: 'An examiner won't like that type of answer', etc. Is it all about my learning experience and not what the examiner will think?

What does he mean by quality exactly?

Vorsprung · 16-12-2010 10:41PM

The multinationals have been saying this for years - the old list of 18 points detailing Ireland's competitiveness has been cut to one - our low corporation tax. All our seemingly great colleges are not quite up to scratch.

Nice to see that the Govt actually did something to improve the situation since that meeting 4 years ago.

What a bunch of twats!

gizmo · 16-12-2010 10:45PM

orourkeda wrote: »

Perhaps they should f*ck off and hire their own graduates then

You mean the multi-nationals in Ireland should hire American graduates and bring them in here rather than hiring Irish grads? Really?

WikiLeaks quotes the former ambassador as saying concerns over the supply of quality graduates were linked to limits on education funding, which derived from the Irish government's long-standing decision not to impose university tuition fees.

That to me is the most important part of this and it's what many people who are in favour of a delayed fees system point to when discussing the issue.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 16-12-2010 10:47PM

Where#s that thread wehre the guy wanted advice on staying awake for four days straight (one of them being a Monday, where he was determined to go out and get pissed) because he had to turn in three papers in said timeframe?

ChopShop · 16-12-2010 10:48PM

SO:

They like low tax.

They don't like lack of tax revenue to invest in education.
:rolleyes:

PeakOutput · 16-12-2010 10:49PM

they are dead right its been discussed to death in politics, generally it seems that people refuse to accept the facts and like to live on in blissfull ignorance believing we still have a decent education system they are the only ones who will suffer

PeakOutput · 16-12-2010 10:50PM

wernstrom! wrote: »

SO:

They like low tax.

They don't like lack of tax revenue to invest in education.
:rolleyes:

were does it say that?

Sticky_Fingers · 16-12-2010 10:50PM

It all depends on where you go to study, I have had experience in two separate institutions and the standard of teaching and level of commitment exhibited by the teaching staff was like night and day. In the more prestigious of the two it was all book learning and exams, very little thought given to the actual implementation and practical side of the work and the students were seen as a burden and a barely tolerated nuisance. I then went to do a follow on degree in an Institute of Technology (in the same city) and found it to be much much better. People have this opinion that IT's are somehow inferior to their big name cousins but I acquired more useful practical skills during my one year at an IT than I did during my four years in Uni.

orourkeda · 16-12-2010 10:50PM

gizmo wrote: »

You mean the multi-nationals in Ireland should hire American graduates and bring them in here rather than hiring Irish grads? Really?

If they are they are unhappy with the educational standards maybe they should relocate.

They may pay higher corporation tax but maybe that would be just another thing for them to bitch about. Perhaps this is more important to then than the educational attainment of their employees.

starbelgrade · 16-12-2010 10:53PM

Not a whole lot.

I didn't read them, as personally, I couldn't give a flying f*ck what he has to say.

Never even heard of him.

Brendog · 16-12-2010 10:54PM

During the Celtic Tiger they couldn't get enough of Irish Graduates.

After all American graduates are so great. Some of the finest in the world :rolleyes:

digme · 16-12-2010 10:56PM

Brendog wrote: »

During the Celtic Tiger they couldn't get enough of Irish Graduates.

After all American graduates are so great. Some of the finest in the world :rolleyes:

except china keeps beating the sh!t out of them in everything

Sticky_Fingers · 16-12-2010 10:58PM

Brendog wrote: »

During the Celtic Tiger they couldn't get enough of Irish Graduates.

After all American graduates are so great. Some of the finest in the world :rolleyes:

I think you will find that they have some of the best graduates in the world, many are foreign students but are educated in some of the finest Universities in the world.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 16-12-2010 10:59PM

orourkeda wrote: »

If they are they are unhappy with the educational standards maybe they should relocate.

They may pay higher corporation tax but maybe that would be just another thing for them to bitch about. Perhaps this is more important to then than the educational attainment of their employees.

Are you seriously suggesting we might be better off with less employment and investment?

PeakOutput · 16-12-2010 10:59PM

Sticky_Fingers wrote: »

It all depends on where you go to study, I have had experience in two separate institutions and the standard of teaching and level of commitment exhibited by the teaching staff was like night and day. In the more prestigious of the two it was all book learning and exams, very little thought given to the actual implementation and practical side of the work and the students were seen as a burden and a barely tolerated nuisance. I then went to do a follow on degree in an Institute of Technology (in the same city) and found it to be much much better. People have this opinion that IT's are somehow inferior to their big name cousins but I acquired more useful practical skills during my one year at an IT than I did during my four years in Uni.

this is a pretty bad explanation but,

thats how it is meant to be, if you study the same subject(software engineering) in and IT and a university you will get taught two completely different ways. universities are theory driven as their main objective is the advancement of knowledge(discovering new things, coming up with theories etc stuff like, were as an it is more about the practical implemenation of existing knowledge.

the lines are blurring but that is the traditional distinction

PeakOutput · 16-12-2010 11:01PM

digme wrote: »

except china keeps beating the sh!t out of them in everything

thats true, this year america dropped form number one to number 12 in the rankings that take into account the total quality of a countries univerisities. china moved to first

Tigger · 16-12-2010 11:04PM

i reckon you can get a degree here with about 800 hrs work

if i'd been chalanged in uni i'd have put in about 3200hrs work

so i see his point

Sticky_Fingers · 16-12-2010 11:13PM

PeakOutput wrote: »

this is a pretty bad explanation but,

thats how it is meant to be, if you study the same subject(software engineering) in and IT and a university you will get taught two completely different ways. universities are theory driven as their main objective is the advancement of knowledge(discovering new things, coming up with theories etc stuff like, were as an it is more about the practical implemenation of existing knowledge.

the lines are blurring but that is the traditional distinction

Thats complete horse manure. The Uni staff didn't give a flying f@ck about the students, we were a bothersome distraction to their research and treated us as such. The IT staff on the other hand actually took an interest in our projects (some of which were pretty impressive stuff). As for advancement of knowledge, some of the modules I studied in the IT doubled up with what I have done previously and I can vouch that there was no dumbing down or glossing over the details, if anything it was more detailed since the principles learned were used to show how stuff actually works. Book learning is all well and good but until you actually see how its been applied to the real world then its pretty useless.

PeakOutput · 16-12-2010 11:20PM

Sticky_Fingers wrote: »

Thats complete horse manure. The Uni staff didn't give a flying f@ck about the students, we were a bothersome distraction to their research and treated us as such. The IT staff on the other hand actually took an interest in our projects (some of which were pretty impressive stuff). As for advancement of knowledge, some of the modules I studied in the IT doubled up with what I have done previously and I can vouch that there was no dumbing down or glossing over the details, if anything it was more detailed since the principles learned were used to show how stuff actually works. Book learning is all well and good but until you actually see how its been applied to the real world then its pretty useless.

read what you just said again and then what i said and see how what you said dosnt contradict what i said at all

no university gives a **** about its undergrads, undergrads are a necessary evil in univerisities. at undergrad level university aims to teach you the basics of a given subject in a way that makes you learn it yourself and in the process teaches you how to do your own research and find things out for yourself etc. its all about post grad research and staff research. that is the main function of a university(traditionally) as i said the advancement of knowledge

the main function of an IT (traditionally) is to teach the practical application of this knowledge.

you can call it horse manure all you want but ask any lecturer what the main differences between a university and an it(iv been to both aswell by the way) are and they will tell you the same thing.

as i said the lines are blurring with the awarding of university status to some ITs

Wagon · 16-12-2010 11:20PM

America is officially the dumbest country in the world. So frankly, Mr American Ambassador can suck my fat hairy balls v:)v

Sticky_Fingers · 16-12-2010 11:40PM

PeakOutput wrote: »

read what you just said again and then what i said and see how what you said dosnt contradict what i said at all

no university gives a **** about its undergrads, undergrads are a necessary evil in univerisities. at undergrad level university aims to teach you the basics of a given subject in a way that makes you learn it yourself and in the process teaches you how to do your own research and find things out for yourself etc. its all about post grad research and staff research. that is the main function of a university(traditionally) as i said the advancement of knowledge

the main function of an IT (traditionally) is to teach the practical application of this knowledge.

you can call it horse manure all you want but ask any lecturer what the main differences between a university and an it(iv been to both aswell by the way) are and they will tell you the same thing.

as i said the lines are blurring with the awarding of university status to some ITs

As someone who has recently completed a Phd and worked for 4 years on the advancement of knowledge I can tell you first hand that my IT education was far more beneficial to me then my big name Uni one. Students can be a nuisance, I know because I have supervised them myself but that is part of the job. Its not a necessary evil, it is vital part of what universities are all about, without students there will be no new scientists, engineers, doctors or chemists. We need undergrads to get the best education possible because they will be the ones carrying on the work when we retire. Without good undergrads you don't get good post grads or researchers, its all very well to tell someone look it up in a book but sometimes it needs to be explained, not because the student is thick but because technical books can be extremely difficult to understand, many are written assuming you are already an expert on the subject.

Pawning a second rate and shoddy education on them because they just so happen to be on the lowest rung of the academic pecking order is scandalous. If a lecturers research work is so vital that he/she cannot be bothered to make time for their students or teach them properly then they have no place at any university.

Monty Burnz · 17-12-2010 12:40AM

PeakOutput wrote: »

thats true, this year america dropped form number one to number 12 in the rankings that take into account the total quality of a countries univerisities. china moved to first

Odd - as I understand it, China's 3rd level education sector is a shambles.

PeakOutput · 17-12-2010 12:43AM

Sticky_Fingers wrote: »

As someone who has recently completed a Phd and worked for 4 years on the advancement of knowledge I can tell you first hand that my IT education was far more beneficial to me then my big name Uni one.

i never said anything about which is or isnt more beneficial

Students can be a nuisance, I know because I have supervised them myself but that is part of the job. Its not a necessary evil, it is vital part of what universities are all about

kinda like emmmm a necessary evil

i should of said that lecturers can look at them as a necessary evil not the universities themselves, sorry.

Pawning a second rate and shoddy education on them because they just so happen to be on the lowest rung of the academic pecking order is scandalous. If a lecturers research work is so vital that he/she cannot be bothered to make time for their students or teach them properly then they have no place at any university.

i never said it was right either

PeakOutput · 17-12-2010 12:43AM

Monty Burnz wrote: »

Odd - as I understand it, China's 3rd level education sector is a shambles.

it was an american that was telling me about it ill try and find the rankings i havnt seen them myself

Dudess · 17-12-2010 12:46AM

I've always wondered about the "Extremely high standard of education" claim re Ireland. I mean, I'm sure it's all right, but extremely high? Based on what?

OPENROAD · 17-12-2010 12:48AM

Dudess wrote: »

I've always wondered about the "Extremely high standard of education" claim re Ireland. I mean, I'm sure it's all right, but extremely high? Based on what?

Is it not normally ourselves who go on about the education?

PeakOutput · 17-12-2010 12:50AM

Dudess wrote: »

I've always wondered about the "Extremely high standard of education" claim re Ireland. I mean, I'm sure it's all right, but extremely high? Based on what?

well we used to have a two universities in the top 100 in teh world now i think they are both out of the top 300 if not 500 could be wrong on that though

rankings arent the be all and end all i know and there is some great ground breaking research happening in irish universities and IT's but our undergraduates are atrocious.

PeakOutput · 17-12-2010 12:52AM

Monty Burnz wrote: »

Odd - as I understand it, China's 3rd level education sector is a shambles.

cant find anything on a quick google she must have been wrong, i noticed when i was looking into it this time last year that if you use non us ranking chinese / japanese / indian universities place far far better

17-12-2010 01:00AM

OK, A US company insists that it wants the top 0.1% of the educated elite working for them!

Ireland population, 4 million (ish) top 0.1 = 4000 = not very many!
US population, 350 million (ish) top 0.1% = 350,000 = quite a few
Chinese population 1600 millipn (very ish) top 0.1% = 1.6 million = quite a lot!

The US ambassador's talking out of his arse!

What do you think of the US Ambassador's comments about graduates in Ireland?

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