Abortion under the spotlight in the European Court of Human Rights

scientific1982 · 16-12-2010 05:13PM

Sisko wrote: »

future generations will look at anti choice people the same way they'll look at fundamentalist religious people, anti gay rights people, anti womens rights people so on and so forth.

Dont think so. If you're for human rights, that extends to all human life.

Wazdakka · 16-12-2010 05:14PM

prinz wrote: »

Generally the polls are too black and white though.

isn't two options the point of a poll to tell if the majority of people want one thing or another?

seamus · 16-12-2010 05:15PM

On this issue in particular, boards is excessively populated by people who will profess a pro-choice preference, but won't bother voting in real life when the question is put to them.

By contrast, the pro-life side tends to vote when the issue appears.

A poll on this on boards will have a huge pro-choice majority. There's no point in having the poll.

dizzywizlw · 16-12-2010 05:15PM

scientific1982 wrote: »

Dont think so. If you're for human rights, that extends to all human life.

Of course you then have to predict what 'all human life' will mean in the future.

Life begins at conception is a belief system not a fact...

common sense brigade · 16-12-2010 05:15PM

The Daily Mail?
Trash

True enough, but its a nice story all the same.
Is there anyway someone could start a poll here ? to see how many are pro abortion or pro life or is that allowed? I do think it should be a referendum and I think alot of people will be surprised because i would bet it would end up on the Pro Life Side. Certainly hope it does. I am not religious I just believe in babys right for life. and if it means women have to be pregnant for 9 months and go down the route of adoption then why not. I also believe if the father wishes he should have a say and be allowed have his baby when its born if the mother does not want the baby. I would not call pro choice people, idiots or insult anyone for their opinion. I would like a democratic vote with peaceful opinions/ideas no insults on either side of the argument.

Novella · 16-12-2010 05:17PM

hotmail.com wrote: »

You haven't dealt with my underlying argument. You don't seem to see the hypocrisy of being in favour of abortion in some cases and not in others. I give up.

Tbh, I wouldn't go so far as to call it hypocrisy. It'd be lovely if everything in life was either right or wrong, black or white but unfortunately, that isn't the case and there are many different shades of grey. People are entitled to think abortion is okay in some circumstances and not in others. You don't, and that's fine but some people differ.

silverspoon · 16-12-2010 05:17PM

prinz wrote: »

In fairness in at least one of the cases it could be argued that it was. I am glad the courts left that in our own hands to deal with.

True that the cases argued did try to argue for the extension of the existing status in Irish law to cover cases in which the health of the mother is infringed upon. The decision itself however, does not extend the circumstances, and I am glad of that because I very much believe that it is not Europe's place to decide our law for us on this issue. The ECHR itself recognised this. I just worry that the rags and such won't make any nuanced distinction like that. I see this being used as an example of a loss of sovereignty by the anti-Europe brigade, notwithstanding that the ECHR is not an EU institution.

On the issue of what is the 'obvious' choice - it's only 'obvious' to each of us what the logical/moral 'right answer' is re: abortion.

And re: referendum - the right to life of the unborn is enshrined in the constitution, and any amendments to the existing position have to be ratified by referendum. I think that if changes to abortion law were created by ordinary legislation, its political legitimacy would be called into question. The abortion debate is hugely polarising and I think that a referendum is the most democratically legitimate way of doing so.

prinz · 16-12-2010 05:19PM

Wazdakka wrote: »

isn't two options the point of a poll to tell if the majority of people want one thing or another?

That depends, does pro-choice mean abortions on demand no questions asked, does it mean abortions available in medical emergencies or under certain conditions, does saying no to abortions on demand mean no to abortions in a threat to life of the mother etc etc. It's too big an issue IMO for a simple yes/no. As Rev Lovejoy said "Yes with an if, no with a but.." or something along those lines.

The Waltzing Consumer · 16-12-2010 05:20PM

scientific1982 wrote: »

Dont think so. If you're for human rights, that extends to all human life.

Does that not sound a bit silly considering a court of human rights just found the Irish Government guilty of breaching a womans human rights by forcing her to go to England for abortion?

The Waltzing Consumer · 16-12-2010 05:24PM

common sense brigade wrote: »

True enough, but its a nice story all the same.
Is there anyway someone could start a poll here ? to see how many are pro abortion or pro life or is that allowed? I do think it should be a referendum and I think alot of people will be surprised because i would bet it would end up on the Pro Life Side. Certainly hope it does. I am not religious I just believe in babys right for life. and if it means women have to be pregnant for 9 months and go down the route of adoption then why not. I also believe if the father wishes he should have a say and be allowed have his baby when its born if the mother does not want the baby. I would not call pro choice people, idiots or insult anyone for their opinion. I would like a democratic vote with peaceful opinions/ideas no insults on either side of the argument.

Ha, nice try. You can't even last your own paragraph without insulting people. People who would like to see abortion legalised and regulated are suddenly pro-abortion? :rolleyes:

How in the world do you think pro-choice means pro-abortion. I know tons of people who would never have an abortion but would be pro-choice.

prinz · 16-12-2010 05:26PM

The Waltzing Consumer wrote: »

Does that not sound a bit silly considering a court of human rights just found the Irish Government guilty of breaching a womans human rights by forcing her to go to England for abortion?

They also found against two other women. Either way the ECtHR have just basically instructed the Government to clarify a messy situation and to comply with the law as it stands.

silverspoon · 16-12-2010 05:27PM

donfers wrote: »

*sigh*

the point I am trying to make is surely the "pro-choicers" wanted a preferable outcome than that which says "things are fine as they are in Ireland, all youz need to do is implement the changes suggested in 92 referndum"

that this result is being distorted as a victory for the "pro-choicers" is interesting as nothing has really changed

That's not the point I read you as making, and I still don't see that in your original post but fine.

I don't see it as a victory for 'pro-choicers' - I see it as a good outcome in ensuring laws recognised theoretically by the government are actually enacted and enabled. I'm glad that the ECHR did not attempt to extend the current status of abortion in Ireland because I don't think that it is something they should have any part of. It is a decision for the Irish people to make. I could not respect a decision made for us by the ECHR - either pro-life/choice - as it would have zero legitimacy.

You confuse me since your original point seemed to be that a decision like that was what the ECHR tried to do, and your response to my post was that the ECHR have effectively changed nothing.

common sense brigade · 16-12-2010 05:27PM

How in the world do you think pro-choice means pro-abortion. I know tons of people who would never have an abortion but would be pro-choice.

Point taken did not mean to insult I meant pro-chice! but it kinda amounts to the same thing doesnt it ?. I mean if you pro choice is that not a way of making yourself feel better than saying pro abortion. pro choice is easier to swallow maybe? then pro abortion. I know what your saying, you prob will never have an abortion but you dont mind if it happens next door...that kinda thing?

scientific1982 · 16-12-2010 05:28PM

dizzywizlw wrote: »

Of course you then have to predict what 'all human life' will mean in the future.

Life begins at conception is a belief system not a fact...

No, you're wrong there. It is absolutely a fact that life begins at conception. If you're of the opposite opinion, then you lack even the most rudimentary knowledge of sexual reproduction.

rossie1977 · 16-12-2010 05:28PM

bout time, every woman should have a choice about what happens with her own body

like someone said earlier, you against abortion don't get one but don't force your ideals and morals on everyone else

scientific1982 · 16-12-2010 05:33PM

The Waltzing Consumer wrote: »

Does that not sound a bit silly considering a court of human rights just found the Irish Government guilty of breaching a womans human rights by forcing her to go to England for abortion?

Nope. Because thats just an opinion of a court of law. Opinions change over time.

prinz · 16-12-2010 05:33PM

rossie1977 wrote: »

like someone said earlier, you against abortion don't get one but don't force your ideals and morals on everyone else

I am against pyramid schemes and internet phishing scams too. Am I allowed to have an opinion on those?

The Waltzing Consumer · 16-12-2010 05:33PM

common sense brigade wrote: »

Point taken did not mean to insult I meant pro-chice! but it kinda amounts to the same thing doesnt it ?. I mean if you pro choice is that not a way of making yourself feel better than saying pro abortion. pro choice is easier to swallow maybe? then pro abortion.

Eh, no. But if that is your logic, I might as well call pro-lifers religious nutbags, selfish, interfering, busy bodies, who should mind their own f**king business.
But yeah, maybe saying pro-life is easier to swallow maybe?

silverspoon · 16-12-2010 05:46PM

common sense brigade wrote: »

Point taken did not mean to insult I meant pro-chice! but it kinda amounts to the same thing doesnt it ?. I mean if you pro choice is that not a way of making yourself feel better than saying pro abortion. pro choice is easier to swallow maybe? then pro abortion.

No - pro-abortion would theoretically be - if a pregnant woman is deliberating on her options, these being, keep the baby and raise it herself, have the baby and adopt it, and have an abortion, the pro-abortionist is touting the merits of abortion. Which is crazy, if the woman wants to, say adopt it.

Pro-choice is the idea that a pregnant woman, deliberating on her options, who wants an abortion, should have the freedom to choose that option.

There are varying degrees on this, rather as many pro-lifers would support the caveat of the option of an abortion in cases of rape, or the highly likely death of the mother in the event of carrying on with the pregnancy.

I imagine many pro-choicers would pinpoint a gestational stage beyond which an abortion is not an option, or in certain cases and not a carte blanche availablility of abortion on request.

The problem in Irish law is that there have been caveats recognised but nothing done about them, and for the purposes of this thread I would simply like to see these caveats properly implemented with a structural framework for women in the unhappy position as outlined by the State. I don't know whether that puts me in the pro-life 'with a but' side, or the pro-choice 'with an if' side.

rossie1977 · 16-12-2010 05:49PM

prinz wrote: »

I am against pyramid schemes and internet phishing scams too. Am I allowed to have an opinion on those?

you can have an opinion on any thing you choose, just don't tell people what they can and cannot do with their own body

i detest smoking, cheese, eggs and other stuff, do i think i should force my morals on others?? course not, i choose not to smoke, if others want to kill themselves smoking let them go right ahead

prinz · 16-12-2010 05:56PM

rossie1977 wrote: »

you can have an opinion on any thing you choose, just don't tell people what they can and cannot do with their own body

No restricted substances? No prescriptions? Am I allowed to express my opinion as a vote?

Craebear · 16-12-2010 06:01PM

I believe abortion should be MANDATORY for scumbags.

donfers · 16-12-2010 06:03PM

silverspoon wrote: »

That's not the point I read you as making, and I still don't see that in your original post but fine.

I don't see it as a victory for 'pro-choicers' - I see it as a good outcome in ensuring laws recognised theoretically by the government are actually enacted and enabled. I'm glad that the ECHR did not attempt to extend the current status of abortion in Ireland because I don't think that it is something they should have any part of. It is a decision for the Irish people to make. I could not respect a decision made for us by the ECHR - either pro-life/choice - as it would have zero legitimacy.

You confuse me since your original point seemed to be that a decision like that was what the ECHR tried to do, and your response to my post was that the ECHR have effectively changed nothing.

the key words in my initial post were "attempt to override....." by amongst others a Lithuanian national and BritishPAS to bypass Irish constitutional law and referenda results and appeal to the Council Of Europe to not only legislate for existing abortion laws (that's fine) but to extend them. Thankfully the ECHR only saw fit to or were deemed capable of passing a judgement affecting existing laws...what with IMF and European Central bank intervention in Ireland in recent times, having the ECHR tell us to reform our constitutional laws would have been a step too far...they are effectively just telling us to implement them

The questions that now should be asked are

- how will this be implemented: it will only apply to very few but the PR will be interesting when it does happen

- what will the ECHR do if Ireland doesn't implement or employs more delaying tactics/fudges it

Nodin · 16-12-2010 06:04PM

rossie1977 wrote: »

bout time, every woman should have a choice about what happens with her own body

like someone said earlier, you against abortion don't get one but don't force your ideals and morals on everyone else

Wimmin???????....in charge of their own bodies????????????? Its that kind of thinking that caused the fall of Rome!!!!!!!

Biggins · 16-12-2010 06:04PM

Not read all the posts.

Government = useless.
Laws = antiquated.
Religions in Ireland = they suck!

The above is just an opinion and I could be a twat!

baldbear · 16-12-2010 06:11PM

Jaysus not another referendum on the cards? I can't wait to see the religious loonies to come crawling out.

prinz · 16-12-2010 06:13PM

baldbear wrote: »

Jaysus not another referendum on the cards? I can't wait to see the religious loonies to come crawling out.

Nope. Just a light under the governments ass to comply with the ones we've had already basically.

donfers · 16-12-2010 06:17PM

rossie1977 wrote: »

bout time, every woman should have a choice about what happens with her own body

like someone said earlier, you against abortion don't get one but don't force your ideals and morals on everyone else

I'm sorry but that's simplistic, naive, populist, cliched and plain wrong

What if a woman plies herself full of drugs? you ok with that? or pimps herself out as a prostitute? you ok with with that?

No one person is forcing their views/morals on another person.

there are concepts out there called "law" and "society" and "civilisation" that mean we can't do whatever we want with our own bodies

you can debate the rights and wrongs of drugs, prostitution and abortion until the cows come home but some aspects of these issues are illegal in Irish Society and if you don't accept that then you should either

a) leave or
b) campaign to have it changed

but in short

you can't legally do whatever you want with your own body and no one person is forcing their ideals and morals upon you, we are all simply abiding by the law withing the society we find ourselves

aDeener · 16-12-2010 06:42PM

rossie1977 wrote: »

you can have an opinion on any thing you choose, just don't tell people what they can and cannot do with their own body

i detest smoking, cheese, eggs and other stuff, do i think i should force my morals on others?? course not, i choose not to smoke, if others want to kill themselves smoking let them go right ahead

can ya tell them what they can and cannot do with the bodies of others? :rolleyes:

drkpower · 16-12-2010 07:02PM

rossie1977 wrote: »

you can have an opinion on any thing you choose, just don't tell people what they can and cannot do with their own body

Why do people continually trot this one out?

Unless you believe that a woman should be fully entitled to choose to terminate their foetus mid-delivery, you also believe that you can tell 'people what they can and cannot do with their own body.

If you do believe that a woman should be able to terminate the foetus mid-delivery, that's fair enough, at least there is consistency there; it is a fairly disgusting from of consistency, but it is consistency nonetheless.

Abortion under the spotlight in the European Court of Human Rights

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