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emigration: get over it

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  • #32
    thebigbiffo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,941 ✭✭✭thebigbiffo


    brianthebard wrote: »
    Who is going to change that if people emigrate though? The people who stay are the ones most likely to be able to afford a decentish level of health care, have jobs etc. Basically people who may not be happy with the system now but will do ok in the next decade or two. Meanwhile the people who are angry, who might force some change into this failed states have gone somewhere else. This is the pattern that's been happening since before the state was even created, and its one of the many contributing factors to our ****ty system of political dynasties, corruption and incompetence, personified in that big ignorant ****er from offaly.

    ehhh, the people who live here (irish and immigrants) should be able to change the system - if ya piss off long term simply cause your angry at the system then i for one dont want you back here. you've abandoned your country. go work abroad if you'd like - but if you've no interest in ever returning home then you are not the type of person i'm talking about here.

    i'm talking about those who go abroad for a while while their trade, skill, education or whatever is in short demand here but have a view to returning when things get better.

    i'm looking at this on a wide level. you wouldn't lament someone going from cork to donegal to work - but you'll dwell on the fact someone will go to liverpool even though it's a shorter distance. why can't we view ireland as a local economy in a large EU.

    btw: ya can give up the thinly veiled jibes. you've been more than vocal in the past with what you think of my views so you can just argue the point at hand instead of holding some grudge like a beligerent teenager.


  • #33
    FatherLen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,808 ✭✭✭FatherLen


    thebigbiffo wrote: »
    ehhh, the people who live here (irish and immigrants) should be able to change the system - if ya piss off long term simply cause your angry at the system then i for one dont want you back here. you've abandoned your country. go work abroad if you'd like - but if you've no interest in ever returning home then you are not the type of person i'm talking about here.

    i'm talking about those who go abroad for a while while their trade, skill, education or whatever is in short demand here but have a view to returning when things get better.

    i'm looking at this on a wide level. you wouldn't lament someone going from cork to donegal to work - but you'll dwell on the fact someone will go to liverpool even though it's a shorter distance. why can't we view ireland as a local economy in a large EU.

    btw: ya can give up the thinly veiled jibes. you've been more than vocal in the past with what you think of my views so you can just argue the point at hand instead of holding some grudge like a beligerent teenager.
    my friend has moved to canada and is having no trouble getting work he has had three different jobs already. now he works in a hotel in whistler and snowboards on his time off.


  • #34
    godscop
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 441 ✭✭godscop


    thebigbiffo wrote: »
    ehhh, the people who live here (irish and immigrants) should be able to change the system - if ya piss off long term simply cause your angry at the system then i for one dont want you back here. you've abandoned your country. go work abroad if you'd like - but if you've no interest in ever returning home then you are not the type of person i'm talking about here.

    i'm talking about those who go abroad for a while while their trade, skill, education or whatever is in short demand here but have a view to returning when things get better.

    i'm looking at this on a wide level. you wouldn't lament someone going from cork to donegal to work - but you'll dwell on the fact someone will go to liverpool even though it's a shorter distance. why can't we view ireland as a local economy in a large EU.

    btw: ya can give up the thinly veiled jibes. you've been more than vocal in the past with what you think of my views so you can just argue the point at hand instead of holding some grudge like a beligerent teenager.

    The people who live here wont change a thing. They will do **** all as usual. I dont think people leave because they are angry at the system, sadly its a case of having to emigrate.


  • #35
    brianthebard
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,165 ✭✭✭✭brianthebard


    thebigbiffo wrote: »
    ehhh, the people who live here (irish and immigrants) should be able to change the system - if ya piss off long term simply cause your angry at the system then i for one dont want you back here. you've abandoned your country. go work abroad if you'd like - but if you've no interest in ever returning home then you are not the type of person i'm talking about here.

    i'm talking about those who go abroad for a while while their trade, skill, education or whatever is in short demand here but have a view to returning when things get better.

    Really? What have they done to change the system lately? How do you predict they will change the system? How many emigrants return as a percentage btw? How were they treated in the past when they did come back?

    The people that leave are the ones most likely to vote against the current government, and you and them both know it.

    Lol at the farce of an idea of emigrating to ease the unemployment then coming back when things pick up. How is that going to happen?
    i'm looking at this on a wide level. you wouldn't lament someone going from cork to donegal to work - but you'll dwell on the fact someone will go to liverpool even though it's a shorter distance. why can't we view ireland as a local economy in a large EU.

    Moving from cork to donegal could be bad for cork, but at least the money earned and spent stays in the Irish economy if someone moves to donegal, unlike if the move abroad.
    btw: ya can give up the thinly veiled jibes. you've been more than vocal in the past with what you think of my views so you can just argue the point at hand instead of holding some grudge like a beligerent teenager.

    I was refering to the real biffo, unless you are him; you know the guy who inherited his seat from his dad, who probably inherited it from his dad. That's what I meant by political dynasties. Try to keep up. I can assure you it was not a thinly veiled jibe, because I prefer to let you know that toeing the FF party line as you so unfailing do is ludicrous and compromises any suggestions you might have, and I don't feel the need to veil that. You still haven't come up with a single positive from emigration, what are they? What do you say to the millions spent on educating people being put to use in other countries?


  • #36
    thebigbiffo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,941 ✭✭✭thebigbiffo


    gurramok wrote: »
    Well, what is there for them to return to? They need jobs to return to and the jobs ain't there just like the 80s hence the justified labelling of a lost generation.

    You clearly cannot be saying that if only 10 out of 30 school leavers have jobs and the rest want simply to uproot as in free will?:eek:

    no, not free will but natural. small country, small economy (now firmly caught in the wests boom/bust cycles), english speakers, members of the EU - of course people are going to leave. but we dont as a country accept this - we still look at johnny going to london like it's the worst thing in the world. he can come home when things improve - we're not unique in the world in that people move around but somehow it freaks us all out.


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  • #37
    Rented Mule
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,154 ✭✭✭Rented Mule


    brianthebard wrote: »
    Who is going to change that if people emigrate though? The people who stay are the ones most likely to be able to afford a decentish level of health care, have jobs etc. Basically people who may not be happy with the system now but will do ok in the next decade or two. Meanwhile the people who are angry, who might force some change into this failed states have gone somewhere else. This is the pattern that's been happening since before the state was even created, and its one of the many contributing factors to our ****ty system of political dynasties, corruption and incompetence, personified in that big ignorant ****er from offaly.


    Change it ? We fought it for eight years while my son lost out on valuable resources. Once they did recognise his needs, we were then thrown into a blame game between two schools as to who was going to pay for the resources/testing needed. In the meantime, nothing was done and he lost out again. The idea of making a change is great if there is any chance of it happening.


  • #38
    thebigbiffo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,941 ✭✭✭thebigbiffo


    brianthebard wrote: »
    Really? What have they done to change the system lately? How do you predict they will change the system? How many emigrants return as a percentage btw? How were they treated in the past when they did come back?

    The people that leave are the ones most likely to vote against the current government, and you and them both know it.

    Lol at the farce of an idea of emigrating to ease the unemployment then coming back when things pick up. How is that going to happen?



    Moving from cork to donegal could be bad for cork, but at least the money earned and spent stays in the Irish economy if someone moves to donegal, unlike if the move abroad.



    I was refering to the real biffo, unless you are him; you know the guy who inherited his seat from his dad, who probably inherited it from his dad. That's what I meant by political dynasties. Try to keep up. I can assure you it was not a thinly veiled jibe, because I prefer to let you know that toeing the FF party line as you so unfailing do is ludicrous and compromises any suggestions you might have, and I don't feel the need to veil that. You still haven't come up with a single positive from emigration, what are they? What do you say to the millions spent on educating people being put to use in other countries?

    i clearly stated in my OP that i'm aware of the negatives - i never said there was positives in emigration except for the individual possibly learning new things etc. this thread is simply asking why we dont look at emigration as something that people just do.

    if you're in france for example and a region is in decline, you've lost your job or whatever and you make some decisions, get on a plane/train and go to another part of that country. ireland doesn't have that luxury. as a small nation and a small economy we dont nessesarily have to move further away but we do have to move to another country.

    obviously you want people to stay in a country - and the same state if you're a german state politician - but we can't as a nation get our heads around the simple fact that people migrate and we're especially open to it. you'd swear it was another famine half the time the way people go on about it.

    note: i dont want to get into a political argument!


  • #39
    brianthebard
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,165 ✭✭✭✭brianthebard


    thebigbiffo wrote: »
    i clearly stated in my OP that i'm aware of the negatives - i never said there was positives in emigration except for the individual possible learning new things etc. this thread is simply asking why we dont look at emigration as something that people just do.

    The answer is in your question, people don't look at emigration as something you just do or something to aspire to or accept as normal because there are no positives except for those people who would always have wnated to leave in good times or bad.



    obviously you want people to stay in a country - and the same state if you're a german state politician - but we can't as a nation get our heads around the simple fact that people migrate and we're especially open to it. you'd swear it was another famine half the time the way people go onj about it.

    Do you realise how many people are leaving and how many are predicted to leave in the next 5 years? It may not be a famine, but the fall in income, the contraction of the consumers, the lack of educated workers, the fall in people who are going to use businesses and services will have a massive impact on this country, not the emigrants, and you don't seem to acknowledge that.


  • #40
    yermanoffthetv
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 625 ✭✭✭yermanoffthetv


    thebigbiffo wrote: »
    ehhh, the people who live here (irish and immigrants) should be able to change the system - if ya piss off long term simply cause your angry at the system then i for one dont want you back here. you've abandoned your country. go work abroad if you'd like - but if you've no interest in ever returning home then you are not the type of person i'm talking about here.

    i'm talking about those who go abroad for a while while their trade, skill, education or whatever is in short demand here but have a view to returning when things get better.

    i'm looking at this on a wide level. you wouldn't lament someone going from cork to donegal to work - but you'll dwell on the fact someone will go to liverpool even though it's a shorter distance. why can't we view ireland as a local economy in a large EU.

    Why are you angry at people who want to leave long term?Maybe theyre sick of the incompetent, unqualified fcuktards who are making dicisions that will cripple the country for generations? maybe theyre sick of the corrupt selfserving system that shelters crooks cheats and liars? Maybe theyre sick of the endless propaganda and spin?Maybe theyre sick of being demonised for being on the dole and dont want to live in a country that doesnt appreciate their potential?Maybe theyre waiting for the brainwashed FF diehards to die out so we can have rational political discussion rather than pathetic tit-for-tat digs and civil war bickering?


  • #41
    thebigbiffo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,941 ✭✭✭thebigbiffo


    brianthebard wrote: »
    The answer is in your question, people don't look at emigration as something you just do or something to aspire to or accept as normal because there are no positives except for those people who would always have wnated to leave in good times or bad.

    yes but my point being that people dont accept that economic migration is something people do just do. it's not ideal and its not a good thing but it's not a problem unique to ireland. the point of the thread was it just seems to me like people freak out about it too much without looking at the wider picture.



    brianthebard wrote: »
    Do you realise how many people are leaving and how many are predicted to leave in the next 5 years? It may not be a famine, but the fall in income, the contraction of the consumers, the lack of educated workers, the fall in people who are going to use businesses and services will have a massive impact on this country, not the emigrants, and you don't seem to acknowledge that.

    i dont want to be an ass here but if we've already accepted that this is economic migration we're talking about the loss of income, contraction of comsumers etc is negligible.


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  • #42
    thebigbiffo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,941 ✭✭✭thebigbiffo


    yermanoffthetv wrote: »
    Why are you angry at people who want to leave long term?Maybe theyre sick of the incompetent, unqualified fcuktards who are making dicisions that will cripple the country for generations? maybe theyre sick of the corrupt selfserving system that shelters crooks cheats and liars? Maybe theyre sick of the endless propaganda and spin?Maybe theyre sick of being demonised for being on the dole and dont want to live in a country that doesnt appreciate their potential?Maybe theyre waiting for the brainwashed FF diehards to die out so we can have rational political discussion rather than pathetic tit-for-tat digs and civil war bickering?

    i'm as angry with the system as you are - i just dont see how abandoning ship for good could help. i suggested a way to clean out the political system and it didn't garner much enthusiam...see here: i've been told it's in the tl;dr realm http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056113607


  • #43
    brianthebard
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,165 ✭✭✭✭brianthebard


    thebigbiffo wrote: »
    yes but my point being that people dont accept that economic migration is something people do just do. it's not ideal and its not a good thing but it's not a problem unique to ireland. the point of the thread was it just seems to me like people freak out about it too much without looking at the wider picture.

    No healthy economy or society has emigration on the level we have. That in itself is the reason people freak out. Migration of the type happening in Ireland is not something people just do. A trickle of migration might exist but that is completely different to the idea that a generation now expects to only be able to get a job if they emigrate.


    i dont want to be an ass here but if we've already accepted that this is economic migration we're talking about the loss of income, contraction of comsumers etc would be negligible.

    Again that's simply not the case. Are you actually considering the figures at all? Durng the famine a million emigrated, that was 1/8th of the population. 500k+ are predicted to leave Ireland in the next few years, that's 1/8th or more of the population. Yet you don't see the comparison, in terms of emigration? You don't see that this is catastrophic? If 500k leave the economy then contraction of consumer spending is not negligible.


  • #44
    thebigbiffo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,941 ✭✭✭thebigbiffo


    brianthebard wrote: »
    No healthy economy or society has emigration on the level we have. That in itself is the reason people freak out. Migration of the type happening in Ireland is not something people just do. A trickle of migration might exist but that is completely different to the idea that a generation now expects to only be able to get a job if they emigrate.





    Again that's simply not the case. Are you actually considering the figures at all? Durng the famine a million emigrated, that was 1/8th of the population. 500k+ are predicted to leave Ireland in the next few years, that's 1/8th or more of the population. Yet you don't see the comparison, in terms of emigration? You don't see that this is catastrophic? If 500k leave the economy then contraction of consumer spending is not negligible.

    i've been trying to find a source for numbers on emgration and cant find anything decent yet. i'm not a cheerleader for the joys of emigration here - i dont think it's a good thing, i just dont think it's as bad as people will have us believe.

    lets talk anecdotally. surely the most sizable minority of people emigrating go to the UK. it's only across the water, it's emigration in every proper use of the term but it's not the distance from paris to rennes. they come home from their jobs regularly and spend money in the economy. if they're bothered, they keep and eye out for positions at home and apply for them. if we didn't count numbers who travel within the EU (and if it was federal we wouldn't) those numbers would be cut by the hundreds of thousands.

    apart from that, you are also forgetting there are about 120,000 poles in this country, that's just to give you some kind of numbers so you can think about the enormous amount of foreign nationals who would quite easily head to another country or go home. how many of your 500,000 are actually irish?


  • #45
    brianthebard
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,165 ✭✭✭✭brianthebard


    thebigbiffo wrote: »
    apart from that, you are also forgetting there are about 120,000 poles in this country, that's just to give you some kind of numbers so you can think about the enormous amount of foreign nationals who would quite easily head to another country or go home. how many of your 500,000 are actually irish?

    Why does it matter if they are Irish or not, you brought migrants into the conversation earlier as having a positive effect on society and change within society? If poles and other migrants leave it will still have a negative effect on our economy. Plus you are talking about Irish people leaving in your op aren't you? don't shift the goalposts now.


  • #46
    thebigbiffo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,941 ✭✭✭thebigbiffo


    brianthebard wrote: »
    Why does it matter if they are Irish or not, you brought migrants into the conversation earlier as having a positive effect on society and change within society? If poles and other migrants leave it will still have a negative effect on our economy. Plus you are talking about Irish people leaving in your op aren't you? don't shift the goalposts now.

    a few points:

    A: i'm talking about the irish propensity to moan about irish people having to get on a boat to go 100 miles away like it's some kind of coffin ship senario - that was the point of this thread.
    B: you brought up the economic negatives of emigration and i've already pointed out that if it's economic migration it would probably save the country money instead of having a bad effect on our economy.
    C: again, yes i was talking about irish people but you brought up the 500k number and i'm simply pointing out that a large portion of those may not be irish so your numbers - in the context of what this thread was about - are skewed.


  • #47
    brianthebard
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,165 ✭✭✭✭brianthebard


    thebigbiffo wrote: »
    a few points:

    A: i'm talking about the irish propensity to moan about irish people having to get on a boat to go 100 miles away like it's some kind of coffin ship senario - that was the point of this thread.

    I don't see how it makes a difference in terms of economic or social consequences. I also would question that the majority go to Britain anyways.

    B: you brought up the economic negatives of emigration and i've already pointed out that if it's economic migration it would probably save the country money instead of having a bad effect on our economy.

    The only money it could 'save' is dole money, which is effectively recycled through the economy anyways - no one puts their dole money away for a rainy day, it is short term spending money. That's half the reason governments provide a dole in the first place, they know they are not loosing out. In the meantime, if people emigrate there are less people spending the dole so businesses suffer. There are less taxes being paid so the government suffers. There is less tax to spend on services so the public suffers. So tell me again what money is being saved in the medium to long run if people are going aboard to make other countries money, support businesses outside of Ireland, and help improve those economies?


    C: again, yes i was talking about irish people but you brought up the 500k number and i'm simply pointing out that a large portion of those may not be irish so your numbers - in the context of what this thread was about - are skewed.
    Not at all. The poles and other recent migrants don't apply to your opening analogy of coffin ships and keening so that's not important. And they still have a negative impact on the economy by leaving so that is important. And it will still add up to a huge proportion of the population so that is important.


  • #48
    thebigbiffo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,941 ✭✭✭thebigbiffo


    meh.

    i'm just sick of reading letters in papers, reading threads on boards, listening to news reports and generally hearing everyone banging on about having to go abroad to work. it happens everywhere and i'm of the opinion that you cant define heading to the UK or even mainland europe as true emigration. so you've had to get on a flight for between 45 mins and 2 hours to get to your area of work? i'm not shedding any tears.

    brian i know the negatives and i'm not defending them. the country obviously would be much better (in the context of emigration) if we were in the middle of the boom but we're not and like the humans we are we'll move around to suit our needs. i just dont get the constant focus on it that's all.


  • #49
    brianthebard
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,165 ✭✭✭✭brianthebard


    you're obviously not having to make a choice about whether you leave the country or not so.


  • #50
    thebigbiffo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,941 ✭✭✭thebigbiffo


    brianthebard wrote: »
    you're obviously not having to make a choice about whether you leave the country or not so.

    no.

    but if i did i wouldn't feel the need to blame all and sundry for what is a personal decision. i wouldn't spend the time in ireland i had left letting everyone know i'm leaving cos the place is gone to hell and i'm never coming back. i wouldnt be expecting shed loads of sympathy like i'm the only person who ever had to travel to find work.


  • #51
    brianthebard
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,165 ✭✭✭✭brianthebard


    thebigbiffo wrote: »
    no.

    but if i did i wouldn't feel the need to blame all and sundry for what is a personal decision. i wouldn't spend the time in ireland i had left letting everyone know i'm leaving cos the place is gone to hell and i'm never coming back. i wouldnt be expecting shed loads of sympathy like i'm the only person who ever had to travel to find work.

    What other personal decisions do you see available to people who feel they are being forced to emigrate? serious question.


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  • #52
    thebigbiffo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,941 ✭✭✭thebigbiffo


    brianthebard wrote: »
    What other personal decisions do you see available to people who feel they are being forced to emigrate? serious question.

    well there's hundreds of thousands on the dole that decided they wouldn't emigrate. nobody is actually 'forced' to emigrate really.


  • #53
    Son Of A Vidic
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,370 ✭✭✭✭Son Of A Vidic


    thebigbiffo wrote: »
    ..i'm talking about the irish propensity to moan about irish people having to get on a boat to go 100 miles away like it's some kind of coffin ship senario...

    Context! it's about context, why are they moaning? Well a lot of people have no choice but to leave. While the useless shower of bovine bast@rds who created the conditions for emigration, remain in place. Then we have the unique distinction of being particularly corrupt. Banks that were reckless and criminal, developers who were lusting for wealth, a financial regulator who couldn't regulate a sh1t in a toilet. Politicians who'd rezone a graveyard, a former Taoiseach who told a commentator to commit suicide because he issued words of warning. Mix it all together and you have a level of incompetence, corruption and criminal neglect that you wouldn't see in Palermo. So you see, this is the context that leads to the 'moaning' you speak of.


  • #54
    brianthebard
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,165 ✭✭✭✭brianthebard


    thebigbiffo wrote: »
    well there's hundreds of thousands on the dole that decided they wouldn't emigrate. nobody is actually 'forced' to emigrate really.

    So its dole or emigration right? Those are the two personal decisions a person can make atm? And btw who do you think we've been talking about the whole time in reference to emigration, people in jobs? Its the hundreds of thousands on the dole who are likely to emigrate, unless they don't have skills that are of any use anywhere else.


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