emigration: get over it

thebigbiffo

wtf is it with this country's fasination with emigration

we are a small island country with a small population. this is not the 1800's where when ya went to van diemens land you were gone for life. people the world over 'emigrate' in some form. people move from sydney to canberra, la to new york, berlin to vienna, paris to madrid and it's hardly given a second thought by the masses or the government yet this country obsesses with the fact that people move around to suit their ambitions? why?

i realise it's not ideal for young people to be leaving the country and i know the negative effects but come on people, do we really need to piss and moan about it every time we discuss the economy.

Mister men

Yes. We are Irish pissing and moaning is a national sport.

thebigbiffo

Mister men wrote: »

Yes. We are Irish pissing and moaning is a national sport.

i sometimes forget about that alright

/thread

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

In fairness, a lot of people are doing it reluctantly and through no fault of their own, as well as the ´brain drain effect whcih inhibits the country's recovery.

professore

OP go back to the bogs of Offaly where you belong and stop running ruining our country !!!

godscop

thebigbiffo wrote: »

wtf is it with this country's fasination with emigration

we are a small island country with a small population. this is not the 1800's where when ya went to van diemens land you were gone for life. people the world over 'emigrate' in some form. people move from sydney to canberra, la to new york, berlin to vienna, paris to madrid and it's hardly given a second thought by the masses or the government yet this country obsesses with the fact that people move around to suit their ambitions? why?

i realise it's not ideal for young people to be leaving the country and i know the negative effects but come on people, do we really need to piss and moan about it every time we discuss the economy.

Prob lives at home with the mammy.

snubbleste

'cos govt policy is to get young people to leave as they might vote for the 'wrong' party in the elections. It will also cost less in social welfare payments.

poisonated

apt username.

jester77

If we're not giving out about emigrating then it's immigrating... you can't win!

who the fug

jester77 wrote: »

If we're not giving out about emigrating then it's immigrating... you can't win!

You forgot to factor Ryan Air in to the equation

IM0

thebigbiffo wrote: »

every time we discuss the economy.

here's an idea, how about discussing it in the economy forum :pac:

Duggy747

Damn emi-gants, going off and taking somebody else's job!

*shakes fists*

BCC4LYFE

its bad for da economy u nitwit

gurramok

Its the level of emigration thats the problem as there will always be a small number of people leaving every year. Every country in the EU has emigration but very few of them will have the forced level that Ireland or Latvia would have.

thebigbiffo

godscop wrote: »

Prob lives at home with the mammy.

nice dig. would never have seen that one coming. any more witticisms you'd like to share.

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

In fairness, a lot of people are doing it reluctantly and through no fault of their own, as well as the ´brain drain effect whcih inhibits the country's recovery.

well this is definitely the negative and i agree totally, it's not ideal for anybody to be leaving the country esepcially if they feel they've no choice. the fact is some level of emigration in one form or another is the norm for any country but to our history we bang on about emigration like it's the worst thing in world - it's not. and in many cases it's beneficial to the person. we dont close the door behind anyone who wants to go abroad. i dont get the obsession.

FatherLen

me@ucd wrote: »

here's an idea, how about discussing it in the economy forum :pac:

this is not economics

thebigbiffo

gurramok wrote: »

Its the level of emigration thats the problem as there will always be a small number of people leaving every year. Every country in the EU has emigration but very few of them will have the forced level that Ireland or Latvia would have.

yes but we're a small island economy, well educated who speak english - in any downturn we're going to see people head off to the UK, US, Oz whatever because it's simply easier and more attractive than sitting in out...this in itself will make emigration an attractive option. couple this with the fact we're in the EU etc and i'm stumped as to what the big deal is. it's natural.

gurramok

thebigbiffo wrote: »

yes but we're a small island economy, well educated who speak english - in any downturn we're going to see people head off to the UK, US, Oz whatever because it's simply easier and more attractive than sitting in out...this in itself will make emigration an attractive option. couple this with the fact we're in the EU etc and i'm stumped as to what the big deal is. it's natural.

Here we go, small island mentality:rolleyes:. Plenty of small isolated countries in the EU are doing just fine, we've had serious economic mismanagement by FF which is the cause of this emigration phase. Large emigration is not natural, its forced.

Oh, and NZ is doing just fine and does not suffer the same level of emigration to a large neighbour(Australia) like us.

Refugee from RealLife

Emigration broadens the mind.

No that's not right, it's travel.

They are the same, aren't they?



You can be home from anywhere on Earth in 24 hours give or take..

brianthebard

Cause emigration is just the biz right? There are a million reasons why we shouldn't be happy about emigration, from personal reasons like people being forced out of their home country to make a living, to the fact that the state spends millions paying to educate children and then another country gets the benefits of that training for free. There is basically no positives in mass emigration except for the few who always wanted to leave anyways. But lets just get over it, sure it will make the live register calm down a bit and FF will appear to be fixing unemployment. :rolleyes:

Rented Mule

Leaving Ireland was the best thing we could have done for our children. The levels of service that they are openly receiving dwarfs anything that we would have had to fight for in Ireland.

Refugee from RealLife

Being forced from Sligo to Galway must have been a blessing

Rented Mule

Refugee from RealLife wrote: »

You can be home from anywhere on Earth in 24 hours give or take..

There have been a few nights on the bottle where I would challenge that statement.

brianthebard

Rented Mule wrote: »

Leaving Ireland was the best thing we could have done for our children. The levels of service that they are openly receiving dwarfs anything that we would have had to fight for in Ireland.

Who is going to change that if people emigrate though? The people who stay are the ones most likely to be able to afford a decentish level of health care, have jobs etc. Basically people who may not be happy with the system now but will do ok in the next decade or two. Meanwhile the people who are angry, who might force some change into this failed states have gone somewhere else. This is the pattern that's been happening since before the state was even created, and its one of the many contributing factors to our ****ty system of political dynasties, corruption and incompetence, personified in that big ignorant ****er from offaly.

thebigbiffo

gurramok wrote: »

Here we go, small island mentality:rolleyes:. Plenty of small isolated countries in the EU are doing just fine, we've had serious economic mismanagement by FF which is the cause of this emigration phase. Large emigration is not natural, its forced.

Oh, and NZ is doing just fine and does not suffer the same level of emigration to a large neighbour(Australia) like us.

it's natural to want to leave a country where it's hard to meet your ambitions. do you not think we're fairly unique in that a short boat ride across the water is discussed as if our youth are deserting us never to return?

ronano

Thank god the experience isn't half as bad as it used to be due to the internet but still i may be looking at having to leave in the next two years and if i do it'll be with a heavy heart. I'm an irish man,a dubliner,i feel at home here,i enjoy most aspects of my life and my friends and family are here and damn it if it's irrational but i feel a connection with Ireland that i can't be put into words.

If i leave i go not because i want to but because conditions will force me to leave. Life is life i'll make new friends and i'll be fine keep the head down and work but to leave one's country due to economic conditions especially considering the history of emigration is profoundly depressing. For all it's faults i love this place

karlog

Is it ok to leave if you just hate the country.

Refugee from RealLife

karlog wrote: »

Is it ok to leave if you just hate the country.

no you have to stay as a form of punishment.

godscop

thebigbiffo wrote: »

it's natural to want to leave a country where it's hard to meet your ambitions. do you not think we're fairly unique in that a short boat ride across the water is discussed as if our youth are deserting us never to return?

Its not just our youth. Its husbands, fathers, not just students going on a adventure.

petroltimer

all i keep hearing ( rte & daily mail\hate ) is people emigrating to non EU countries like USA\ Canada\ Australia, but you need visas is it so easy and happily ever after.

Its a myth, i myself was unemployed a few months back and in dole office i was staggered to see the amount of people signing up to the dole who had just come back from Australia ( oz dream not so great for them )

Go on to forums about Canada and all you read it cry's of help of people who have not worked since they came looking for any type of work bar\waitressing and all for low money minimum wage much less than even our new minimum wage.

As for the USA the only visa available is a restrictive area of study visa, where you must report to your emigration officer every 30 days. Maybe they work illegally, no health care\can't drive a car, resentment from locals where real unemployment is running at 15% same as here, coccuned in an Irish neighborhood living of the favors of relatives.

I have friends and relatives that fit the bill for all i said above, but i also know some who have moved and are doing great but these were highly educated with EXPERIENCE who had jobs arranged before they left, they left by choice, and thats the people these countries want, anybody can pull a pint and clear a table.

gurramok

thebigbiffo wrote: »

it's natural to want to leave a country where it's hard to meet your ambitions. do you not think we're fairly unique in that a short boat ride across the water is discussed as if our youth are deserting us never to return?

Well, what is there for them to return to? They need jobs to return to and the jobs ain't there just like the 80s hence the justified labelling of a lost generation.

You clearly cannot be saying that if only 10 out of 30 school leavers have jobs and the rest want simply to uproot as in free will?:eek:

thebigbiffo

brianthebard wrote: »

Who is going to change that if people emigrate though? The people who stay are the ones most likely to be able to afford a decentish level of health care, have jobs etc. Basically people who may not be happy with the system now but will do ok in the next decade or two. Meanwhile the people who are angry, who might force some change into this failed states have gone somewhere else. This is the pattern that's been happening since before the state was even created, and its one of the many contributing factors to our ****ty system of political dynasties, corruption and incompetence, personified in that big ignorant ****er from offaly.

ehhh, the people who live here (irish and immigrants) should be able to change the system - if ya piss off long term simply cause your angry at the system then i for one dont want you back here. you've abandoned your country. go work abroad if you'd like - but if you've no interest in ever returning home then you are not the type of person i'm talking about here.

i'm talking about those who go abroad for a while while their trade, skill, education or whatever is in short demand here but have a view to returning when things get better.

i'm looking at this on a wide level. you wouldn't lament someone going from cork to donegal to work - but you'll dwell on the fact someone will go to liverpool even though it's a shorter distance. why can't we view ireland as a local economy in a large EU.

btw: ya can give up the thinly veiled jibes. you've been more than vocal in the past with what you think of my views so you can just argue the point at hand instead of holding some grudge like a beligerent teenager.

FatherLen

thebigbiffo wrote: »

ehhh, the people who live here (irish and immigrants) should be able to change the system - if ya piss off long term simply cause your angry at the system then i for one dont want you back here. you've abandoned your country. go work abroad if you'd like - but if you've no interest in ever returning home then you are not the type of person i'm talking about here.

i'm talking about those who go abroad for a while while their trade, skill, education or whatever is in short demand here but have a view to returning when things get better.

i'm looking at this on a wide level. you wouldn't lament someone going from cork to donegal to work - but you'll dwell on the fact someone will go to liverpool even though it's a shorter distance. why can't we view ireland as a local economy in a large EU.

btw: ya can give up the thinly veiled jibes. you've been more than vocal in the past with what you think of my views so you can just argue the point at hand instead of holding some grudge like a beligerent teenager.

my friend has moved to canada and is having no trouble getting work he has had three different jobs already. now he works in a hotel in whistler and snowboards on his time off.

godscop

thebigbiffo wrote: »

ehhh, the people who live here (irish and immigrants) should be able to change the system - if ya piss off long term simply cause your angry at the system then i for one dont want you back here. you've abandoned your country. go work abroad if you'd like - but if you've no interest in ever returning home then you are not the type of person i'm talking about here.

i'm talking about those who go abroad for a while while their trade, skill, education or whatever is in short demand here but have a view to returning when things get better.

i'm looking at this on a wide level. you wouldn't lament someone going from cork to donegal to work - but you'll dwell on the fact someone will go to liverpool even though it's a shorter distance. why can't we view ireland as a local economy in a large EU.

btw: ya can give up the thinly veiled jibes. you've been more than vocal in the past with what you think of my views so you can just argue the point at hand instead of holding some grudge like a beligerent teenager.

The people who live here wont change a thing. They will do **** all as usual. I dont think people leave because they are angry at the system, sadly its a case of having to emigrate.

brianthebard

thebigbiffo wrote: »

ehhh, the people who live here (irish and immigrants) should be able to change the system - if ya piss off long term simply cause your angry at the system then i for one dont want you back here. you've abandoned your country. go work abroad if you'd like - but if you've no interest in ever returning home then you are not the type of person i'm talking about here.

i'm talking about those who go abroad for a while while their trade, skill, education or whatever is in short demand here but have a view to returning when things get better.

Really? What have they done to change the system lately? How do you predict they will change the system? How many emigrants return as a percentage btw? How were they treated in the past when they did come back?

The people that leave are the ones most likely to vote against the current government, and you and them both know it.

Lol at the farce of an idea of emigrating to ease the unemployment then coming back when things pick up. How is that going to happen?

i'm looking at this on a wide level. you wouldn't lament someone going from cork to donegal to work - but you'll dwell on the fact someone will go to liverpool even though it's a shorter distance. why can't we view ireland as a local economy in a large EU.

Moving from cork to donegal could be bad for cork, but at least the money earned and spent stays in the Irish economy if someone moves to donegal, unlike if the move abroad.

btw: ya can give up the thinly veiled jibes. you've been more than vocal in the past with what you think of my views so you can just argue the point at hand instead of holding some grudge like a beligerent teenager.

I was refering to the real biffo, unless you are him; you know the guy who inherited his seat from his dad, who probably inherited it from his dad. That's what I meant by political dynasties. Try to keep up. I can assure you it was not a thinly veiled jibe, because I prefer to let you know that toeing the FF party line as you so unfailing do is ludicrous and compromises any suggestions you might have, and I don't feel the need to veil that. You still haven't come up with a single positive from emigration, what are they? What do you say to the millions spent on educating people being put to use in other countries?

thebigbiffo

gurramok wrote: »

Well, what is there for them to return to? They need jobs to return to and the jobs ain't there just like the 80s hence the justified labelling of a lost generation.

You clearly cannot be saying that if only 10 out of 30 school leavers have jobs and the rest want simply to uproot as in free will?:eek:

no, not free will but natural. small country, small economy (now firmly caught in the wests boom/bust cycles), english speakers, members of the EU - of course people are going to leave. but we dont as a country accept this - we still look at johnny going to london like it's the worst thing in the world. he can come home when things improve - we're not unique in the world in that people move around but somehow it freaks us all out.

Rented Mule

brianthebard wrote: »

Who is going to change that if people emigrate though? The people who stay are the ones most likely to be able to afford a decentish level of health care, have jobs etc. Basically people who may not be happy with the system now but will do ok in the next decade or two. Meanwhile the people who are angry, who might force some change into this failed states have gone somewhere else. This is the pattern that's been happening since before the state was even created, and its one of the many contributing factors to our ****ty system of political dynasties, corruption and incompetence, personified in that big ignorant ****er from offaly.

Change it ? We fought it for eight years while my son lost out on valuable resources. Once they did recognise his needs, we were then thrown into a blame game between two schools as to who was going to pay for the resources/testing needed. In the meantime, nothing was done and he lost out again. The idea of making a change is great if there is any chance of it happening.

thebigbiffo

brianthebard wrote: »

Really? What have they done to change the system lately? How do you predict they will change the system? How many emigrants return as a percentage btw? How were they treated in the past when they did come back?

The people that leave are the ones most likely to vote against the current government, and you and them both know it.

Lol at the farce of an idea of emigrating to ease the unemployment then coming back when things pick up. How is that going to happen?



Moving from cork to donegal could be bad for cork, but at least the money earned and spent stays in the Irish economy if someone moves to donegal, unlike if the move abroad.



I was refering to the real biffo, unless you are him; you know the guy who inherited his seat from his dad, who probably inherited it from his dad. That's what I meant by political dynasties. Try to keep up. I can assure you it was not a thinly veiled jibe, because I prefer to let you know that toeing the FF party line as you so unfailing do is ludicrous and compromises any suggestions you might have, and I don't feel the need to veil that. You still haven't come up with a single positive from emigration, what are they? What do you say to the millions spent on educating people being put to use in other countries?

i clearly stated in my OP that i'm aware of the negatives - i never said there was positives in emigration except for the individual possibly learning new things etc. this thread is simply asking why we dont look at emigration as something that people just do.

if you're in france for example and a region is in decline, you've lost your job or whatever and you make some decisions, get on a plane/train and go to another part of that country. ireland doesn't have that luxury. as a small nation and a small economy we dont nessesarily have to move further away but we do have to move to another country.

obviously you want people to stay in a country - and the same state if you're a german state politician - but we can't as a nation get our heads around the simple fact that people migrate and we're especially open to it. you'd swear it was another famine half the time the way people go on about it.

note: i dont want to get into a political argument!

brianthebard

thebigbiffo wrote: »

i clearly stated in my OP that i'm aware of the negatives - i never said there was positives in emigration except for the individual possible learning new things etc. this thread is simply asking why we dont look at emigration as something that people just do.

The answer is in your question, people don't look at emigration as something you just do or something to aspire to or accept as normal because there are no positives except for those people who would always have wnated to leave in good times or bad.

obviously you want people to stay in a country - and the same state if you're a german state politician - but we can't as a nation get our heads around the simple fact that people migrate and we're especially open to it. you'd swear it was another famine half the time the way people go onj about it.

Do you realise how many people are leaving and how many are predicted to leave in the next 5 years? It may not be a famine, but the fall in income, the contraction of the consumers, the lack of educated workers, the fall in people who are going to use businesses and services will have a massive impact on this country, not the emigrants, and you don't seem to acknowledge that.

yermanoffthetv

thebigbiffo wrote: »

ehhh, the people who live here (irish and immigrants) should be able to change the system - if ya piss off long term simply cause your angry at the system then i for one dont want you back here. you've abandoned your country. go work abroad if you'd like - but if you've no interest in ever returning home then you are not the type of person i'm talking about here.

i'm talking about those who go abroad for a while while their trade, skill, education or whatever is in short demand here but have a view to returning when things get better.

i'm looking at this on a wide level. you wouldn't lament someone going from cork to donegal to work - but you'll dwell on the fact someone will go to liverpool even though it's a shorter distance. why can't we view ireland as a local economy in a large EU.

Why are you angry at people who want to leave long term?Maybe theyre sick of the incompetent, unqualified fcuktards who are making dicisions that will cripple the country for generations? maybe theyre sick of the corrupt selfserving system that shelters crooks cheats and liars? Maybe theyre sick of the endless propaganda and spin?Maybe theyre sick of being demonised for being on the dole and dont want to live in a country that doesnt appreciate their potential?Maybe theyre waiting for the brainwashed FF diehards to die out so we can have rational political discussion rather than pathetic tit-for-tat digs and civil war bickering?

thebigbiffo

brianthebard wrote: »

The answer is in your question, people don't look at emigration as something you just do or something to aspire to or accept as normal because there are no positives except for those people who would always have wnated to leave in good times or bad.

yes but my point being that people dont accept that economic migration is something people do just do. it's not ideal and its not a good thing but it's not a problem unique to ireland. the point of the thread was it just seems to me like people freak out about it too much without looking at the wider picture.

brianthebard wrote: »

Do you realise how many people are leaving and how many are predicted to leave in the next 5 years? It may not be a famine, but the fall in income, the contraction of the consumers, the lack of educated workers, the fall in people who are going to use businesses and services will have a massive impact on this country, not the emigrants, and you don't seem to acknowledge that.

i dont want to be an ass here but if we've already accepted that this is economic migration we're talking about the loss of income, contraction of comsumers etc is negligible.

thebigbiffo

yermanoffthetv wrote: »

Why are you angry at people who want to leave long term?Maybe theyre sick of the incompetent, unqualified fcuktards who are making dicisions that will cripple the country for generations? maybe theyre sick of the corrupt selfserving system that shelters crooks cheats and liars? Maybe theyre sick of the endless propaganda and spin?Maybe theyre sick of being demonised for being on the dole and dont want to live in a country that doesnt appreciate their potential?Maybe theyre waiting for the brainwashed FF diehards to die out so we can have rational political discussion rather than pathetic tit-for-tat digs and civil war bickering?

i'm as angry with the system as you are - i just dont see how abandoning ship for good could help. i suggested a way to clean out the political system and it didn't garner much enthusiam...see here: i've been told it's in the tl;dr realm http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056113607

brianthebard

thebigbiffo wrote: »

yes but my point being that people dont accept that economic migration is something people do just do. it's not ideal and its not a good thing but it's not a problem unique to ireland. the point of the thread was it just seems to me like people freak out about it too much without looking at the wider picture.

No healthy economy or society has emigration on the level we have. That in itself is the reason people freak out. Migration of the type happening in Ireland is not something people just do. A trickle of migration might exist but that is completely different to the idea that a generation now expects to only be able to get a job if they emigrate.

i dont want to be an ass here but if we've already accepted that this is economic migration we're talking about the loss of income, contraction of comsumers etc would be negligible.

Again that's simply not the case. Are you actually considering the figures at all? Durng the famine a million emigrated, that was 1/8th of the population. 500k+ are predicted to leave Ireland in the next few years, that's 1/8th or more of the population. Yet you don't see the comparison, in terms of emigration? You don't see that this is catastrophic? If 500k leave the economy then contraction of consumer spending is not negligible.

thebigbiffo

brianthebard wrote: »

No healthy economy or society has emigration on the level we have. That in itself is the reason people freak out. Migration of the type happening in Ireland is not something people just do. A trickle of migration might exist but that is completely different to the idea that a generation now expects to only be able to get a job if they emigrate.





Again that's simply not the case. Are you actually considering the figures at all? Durng the famine a million emigrated, that was 1/8th of the population. 500k+ are predicted to leave Ireland in the next few years, that's 1/8th or more of the population. Yet you don't see the comparison, in terms of emigration? You don't see that this is catastrophic? If 500k leave the economy then contraction of consumer spending is not negligible.

i've been trying to find a source for numbers on emgration and cant find anything decent yet. i'm not a cheerleader for the joys of emigration here - i dont think it's a good thing, i just dont think it's as bad as people will have us believe.

lets talk anecdotally. surely the most sizable minority of people emigrating go to the UK. it's only across the water, it's emigration in every proper use of the term but it's not the distance from paris to rennes. they come home from their jobs regularly and spend money in the economy. if they're bothered, they keep and eye out for positions at home and apply for them. if we didn't count numbers who travel within the EU (and if it was federal we wouldn't) those numbers would be cut by the hundreds of thousands.

apart from that, you are also forgetting there are about 120,000 poles in this country, that's just to give you some kind of numbers so you can think about the enormous amount of foreign nationals who would quite easily head to another country or go home. how many of your 500,000 are actually irish?

brianthebard

thebigbiffo wrote: »

apart from that, you are also forgetting there are about 120,000 poles in this country, that's just to give you some kind of numbers so you can think about the enormous amount of foreign nationals who would quite easily head to another country or go home. how many of your 500,000 are actually irish?

Why does it matter if they are Irish or not, you brought migrants into the conversation earlier as having a positive effect on society and change within society? If poles and other migrants leave it will still have a negative effect on our economy. Plus you are talking about Irish people leaving in your op aren't you? don't shift the goalposts now.

thebigbiffo

brianthebard wrote: »

Why does it matter if they are Irish or not, you brought migrants into the conversation earlier as having a positive effect on society and change within society? If poles and other migrants leave it will still have a negative effect on our economy. Plus you are talking about Irish people leaving in your op aren't you? don't shift the goalposts now.

a few points:

A: i'm talking about the irish propensity to moan about irish people having to get on a boat to go 100 miles away like it's some kind of coffin ship senario - that was the point of this thread.
B: you brought up the economic negatives of emigration and i've already pointed out that if it's economic migration it would probably save the country money instead of having a bad effect on our economy.
C: again, yes i was talking about irish people but you brought up the 500k number and i'm simply pointing out that a large portion of those may not be irish so your numbers - in the context of what this thread was about - are skewed.

brianthebard

thebigbiffo wrote: »

a few points:

A: i'm talking about the irish propensity to moan about irish people having to get on a boat to go 100 miles away like it's some kind of coffin ship senario - that was the point of this thread.

I don't see how it makes a difference in terms of economic or social consequences. I also would question that the majority go to Britain anyways.

B: you brought up the economic negatives of emigration and i've already pointed out that if it's economic migration it would probably save the country money instead of having a bad effect on our economy.

The only money it could 'save' is dole money, which is effectively recycled through the economy anyways - no one puts their dole money away for a rainy day, it is short term spending money. That's half the reason governments provide a dole in the first place, they know they are not loosing out. In the meantime, if people emigrate there are less people spending the dole so businesses suffer. There are less taxes being paid so the government suffers. There is less tax to spend on services so the public suffers. So tell me again what money is being saved in the medium to long run if people are going aboard to make other countries money, support businesses outside of Ireland, and help improve those economies?

C: again, yes i was talking about irish people but you brought up the 500k number and i'm simply pointing out that a large portion of those may not be irish so your numbers - in the context of what this thread was about - are skewed.

Not at all. The poles and other recent migrants don't apply to your opening analogy of coffin ships and keening so that's not important. And they still have a negative impact on the economy by leaving so that is important. And it will still add up to a huge proportion of the population so that is important.

thebigbiffo

meh.

i'm just sick of reading letters in papers, reading threads on boards, listening to news reports and generally hearing everyone banging on about having to go abroad to work. it happens everywhere and i'm of the opinion that you cant define heading to the UK or even mainland europe as true emigration. so you've had to get on a flight for between 45 mins and 2 hours to get to your area of work? i'm not shedding any tears.

brian i know the negatives and i'm not defending them. the country obviously would be much better (in the context of emigration) if we were in the middle of the boom but we're not and like the humans we are we'll move around to suit our needs. i just dont get the constant focus on it that's all.

brianthebard

you're obviously not having to make a choice about whether you leave the country or not so.

thebigbiffo

brianthebard wrote: »

you're obviously not having to make a choice about whether you leave the country or not so.

no.

but if i did i wouldn't feel the need to blame all and sundry for what is a personal decision. i wouldn't spend the time in ireland i had left letting everyone know i'm leaving cos the place is gone to hell and i'm never coming back. i wouldnt be expecting shed loads of sympathy like i'm the only person who ever had to travel to find work.

brianthebard

thebigbiffo wrote: »

no.

but if i did i wouldn't feel the need to blame all and sundry for what is a personal decision. i wouldn't spend the time in ireland i had left letting everyone know i'm leaving cos the place is gone to hell and i'm never coming back. i wouldnt be expecting shed loads of sympathy like i'm the only person who ever had to travel to find work.

What other personal decisions do you see available to people who feel they are being forced to emigrate? serious question.