Abortion under the spotlight in the European Court of Human Rights

common sense brigade · 16-12-2010 12:43PM

carried out past the period where the baby could survive outside the womb

The baby has a nervous system equipped to feel pain at 12 weeks. But could not survive outside the womb. So by your standards is abortion ok at 12 weeks ok?
Week 12: The baby has all of the parts necessary to experience pain, including nerves, spinal cord, and thalamus. Vocal cords are complete. The baby can suck its thumb.
Week 17: The baby can have dream (REM) sleep
Week 19: Babies can routinely be saved at 21 to 22 weeks after fertilization, and sometimes they can be saved even younger
At 20 weeks the baby recognizes its' mothers voice.

prinz · 16-12-2010 12:43PM

curlzy wrote: »

I think this is the crux of the argument for alot of people. You seem to think that life begins at conception. I think it begins at birth....

What happens if I walk up to a pregnant woman, say 9 months gone, and stick a knife into her killing her unborn, have I taken a life?

smk89 · 16-12-2010 12:45PM

So does this ruling mean Ireland must make abortion legal for cases such as c's i.e. when endangering a mothers life? Or legal in all cases?

CathyMoran · 16-12-2010 12:46PM

In my experience the hospitals will not go near a pregnant or potentially pregnant women until they prove that she is not pregnant. The mother's health (and life) should be protected. The funny thing is that I am not happy with abortion but they do not appear to be looking after the mother in Ireland.

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar · 16-12-2010 12:47PM

for all those who think life begins at birth, what exactly is so magical about the vagina that exiting through it makes you alive?

what about caesarean sections, are children born that way ever truly alive?

sensibleken · 16-12-2010 12:47PM

prinz wrote: »

What happens if I walk up to a pregnant woman, say 9 months gone, and stick a knife into her killing her unborn, have I taken a life?

Technically you have, and you technically have a million times over when you wash your hands with anti bacterial soap.

but taking a life is not neccesarily murder

sensibleken · 16-12-2010 12:49PM

smk89 wrote: »

So does this ruling mean Ireland must make abortion legal for cases such as c's i.e. when endangering a mothers life? Or legal in all cases?

It means they will have to do what they were told 17 years ago. abortion only when the mothers life is in danger, including threat of suicide

silverspoon · 16-12-2010 12:50PM

smk89 wrote: »

So does this ruling mean Ireland must make abortion legal for cases such as c's i.e. when endangering a mothers life? Or legal in all cases?

It's already recognised that abortion should be available in cases where the life of the mother is endangered. It is interesting for people who are against an increase in the ambit of cases where abortion is legal to note that A and B's cases were thrown out, where they were trying to argue for an extension to cover situations where the health of the mother was at risk. This is a sign that rights which have not already been recognised by the State are not recognised by this new ruling.
By pro-choice and pro-life people alike this ruling is good news, since any legislation will define both the scope and the limits of our abortion law. Since Ireland has, for example, no defined limit on the gestation stage at which an abortion may be procured in the legally permissible circumstances, there in itself exists a huuuge vacuum.

curlzy · 16-12-2010 12:51PM

common sense brigade wrote: »

The baby has a nervous system equipped to feel pain at 12 weeks. But could not survive outside the womb. So by your standards is abortion ok at 12 weeks ok?

To be honest I don't have any medical training, nor have I researched it enough to have a strong opinion on this. Put it like this:

Once the child is old enough to survive outside the womb (around 5 months at a stretch, a relative recently had a baby at 6 months and he survived) then abortion isn't ok IMO. I would also like to know if the anesthetic works on the foetus, I would not like to think that it would feel pain. Again I don't have medical training and the only info I could find on it was on biased & religious sites. Hope that answers your question.

seamus · 16-12-2010 12:51PM

prinz wrote: »

What happens if I walk up to a pregnant woman, say 9 months gone, and stick a knife into her killing her unborn, have I taken a life?

Me and you (you and I?) have had this little conversation before

Ignoring for a second the philosophical aspects of "when is it human", in this jurisdiction, a failed pregnancy changes from "miscarriage" to "stillbirth" sometime between 22 and 24 weeks. The child is not a legal entity in this jurisdiction until it is 500g in weight or 24 weeks (whichever comes sooner).
You cannot have a death certificate issued until this point, which means that the state does not consider the unborn child to be a legal entity until that point.

There is an obvious conflict there between the law and the constitution - the constituion recognises the right to life of the unborn, but the unborn is not recognised as a legal entity until roughly halfway through gestation.
And something which is not a legal entity cannot have rights, therefore there's a strong argument to say that the "right to life" mentioned in the constitution only applies to foetuses after this critical halfway point.

It's food for thought.

I'm personally in favour of the "50% chance" limit - i.e. where medical science is at the point that the child when born has a 50% chance of surviving birth and living a full human life without life support, that that should be the ceiling at which abortion is allowed. This presently about 23.5 weeks and is more than enough time for a pregnant woman to make her decision. As medical science improves, this limit obviously comes down.

When we get to the point that a child can be "grown" from conception to birth outside of a woman's body, then I would cap the abortion limit at 12 weeks; outside of that you can have it transferred to an artificial chamber and release it for adoption.

curlzy · 16-12-2010 12:54PM

prinz wrote: »

What happens if I walk up to a pregnant woman, say 9 months gone, and stick a knife into her killing her unborn, have I taken a life?

According to law; no, greivous bodily harm and attempted murder; yes. Which is why the woman that was killed in the Armagh bomb didn't have her unborn twins counted in the total tally of lives lost.

Wazdakka · 16-12-2010 12:54PM

I never got the mentality with the hard-liner anti-abortionists.

Just because something isn't illegal doesn't mean that you personally are going to be forced to use it..
It's only making an option that is already there for Irish women closer and safer.

All the moral outrage in the world wont change the fact that if 51% of the population in this country want something, and would vote on it being introduced... It should be introduced.

This is one of those issues where the vast majority of people already have their views on it and all the showing dead baby pictures or various propaganda one way or another wont change that.

Why the hell isn't there just a vote?
Once and for all, Let's see what the majority of the citizens in this country want the law to be.

Isn't that the way things are meant to happen?

smk89 · 16-12-2010 12:54PM

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar wrote: »

for all those who think life begins at birth, what exactly is so magical about the vagina that exiting through it makes you alive?

what about caesarean sections, are children born that way ever truly alive?

As someone once said you spend 9 months trying to get out and the rest of your life trying to get in.

I'm a c section kid and I have a pulse, also I can kill Macbeth.

I think the point they make is that it is the first point in your life you are truly independant. Before that point your lungs are deflated and your heart has 2 holes in it making it useless.
Essentially being born is like being taken off life support you breath for the first time, all that you practice breathing in the womb is rubbish. Its the placenta that keeps you alive.

curlzy · 16-12-2010 01:00PM

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar wrote: »

for all those who think life begins at birth, what exactly is so magical about the vagina that exiting through it makes you alive?

what about caesarean sections, are children born that way ever truly alive?

Don't be so silly:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:, no one said vaginal birth they just said birth, birth being when the baby leaves the woman's body. How it got there is immaterial, either vaginal or caesarean etc.

Nijmegen · 16-12-2010 01:01PM

Let's make a MAJOR clarification on this case:

The ruling was against two women and only ruled in favour of one woman, who was in cancer remission and feared a pregnancy could kill her.

This goes back to the X-case when the courts and our constitution were held to allow for a woman who's life is in danger to have an abortion.

Irish legislators never put this into law, so in theory if your life is in danger you're entitled to an abortion in Ireland, het there is no facility for it. And so you have to take the boat to England.

In no way did the court ruling say that we are to allow abortions under any other circumstances. Indeed, it said that's a matter for the Irish people.

prinz · 16-12-2010 01:01PM

curlzy wrote: »

According to law; no, greivous bodily harm and attempted murder; yes. Which is why the woman that was killed in the Armagh bomb didn't have her unborn twins counted in the total tally of lives lost.

Omagh, and you're on dodgy legal ground in this State. An unborn baby has been added to the official list of victims of the Dublin bombing of '74.

EverEvolving · 16-12-2010 01:11PM

prinz wrote: »

Nope, but I do think people should be exposed to it at least once and then think about their stance again. It's very easy to be 'pro-something' or indeed 'anti-something' when you can cover your eyes and block your ears and sing La-la-la-la-la. For the same reason German civilians were forced to witness the realities of the concentration camps to cure any lingering support they might have had.

If someone watches it and comes away still backing abortions then fair enough, but it's a bit much to accuse others of emotional blackmail etc by allowing that footage be seen.

4 Months, 3 Weeks & 2 days

The film above is about a girl getting an abortion in Romania. It's quite good and pretty graphic in parts. I watched it and still "back" choice. Just because you disagree with something doesn't mean it shouldn't be allowed. I think every woman should have the choice to keep or abort a child, regardless of circumstance - wanton hussy or health risk. Doesn't mean I would do it myself but it should be an option.

prinz · 16-12-2010 01:14PM

EverEvolving wrote: »

Just because you disagree with something doesn't mean it shouldn't be allowed. I think every woman should have the choice to keep or abort a child, regardless of circumstance - wanton hussy or health risk. Doesn't mean I would do it myself but it should be an option.

You are entitled to your opinion as I am to mine.

dizzywizlw · 16-12-2010 01:29PM

I sincerely hope that this ruling will facilitate and actual debate within our society based on reason and fact and not ingrained religious ignorance or the just as ugly anti-religious Uber-liberalism.

Dare to dream :rolleyes:

PrincessLola · 16-12-2010 01:33PM

Major lols to be had on this thread. :rolleyes:

Its a zygote, a cluster of cells guys, it has no brain and no feelings it isn't conscious; sure its potential life but so is jizz technically :pac:

smk89 · 16-12-2010 01:34PM

PrincessLola wrote: »

Major lols to be had on this thread. :rolleyes:

Its a zygote, a cluster of cells guys, it has no brain and no feelings it isn't conscious; sure its potential life but so is jizz technically :pac:

Oh ****! shes started it again

prinz · 16-12-2010 01:40PM

PrincessLola wrote: »

Its a zygote, a cluster of cells guys, it has no brain and no feelings it isn't conscious; sure its potential life but so is jizz technically :pac:

Good lord. Sometimes I wish facepalm applied to others.

Wazdakka · 16-12-2010 01:40PM

PrincessLola wrote: »

no feelings it isn't conscious; sure its potential life but so is jizz technically

Does that mean that I've committed genocide over a girls face?

Awesome.. :cool:

smk89 · 16-12-2010 01:51PM

prinz wrote: »

Good lord. Sometimes I wish facepalm applied to others.

But that would be hitting a girl.
Then again the girl did just start a dying argument again

prinz · 16-12-2010 01:56PM

smk89 wrote: »

But that would be hitting a girl.
Then again the girl did just start a dying argument again

I kid

nessie911 · 16-12-2010 02:11PM

May be with providing an abortion we could educate them as to what contraception is and how you use it, and we could introduce project prevention but not just for drug addicted women but women who are so stupid that they don't use contraception.

Sure they had the choice to use contraception so as to stop an un wanted pregnancy and they didn't use it, so why now do they want to have choices.

silverspoon · 16-12-2010 02:12PM

PrincessLola wrote: »

Major lols to be had on this thread. :rolleyes:

Its a zygote, a cluster of cells guys, it has no brain and no feelings it isn't conscious; sure its potential life but so is jizz technically :pac:

I really wish that the abortion debate wasn't characterised by either emotional blackmail backed up with religious propaganda, or flippant statements like that with logical fallacies like the one as quoted.

I wanted to post in this thread to try and put the point across that this case is not about the introduction of abortion in Ireland, but the government being compelled to give a legislative framework for decisions taken 17-18 years ago. It's not about the stage of when a foetus has fingernails, nor is it about stupid comparisons between jizz and an actual fertilised cell structure with the potential for life - sperm does not of itself develop into a baby but a zygote does.

And whatever side of the debate people are on, neither bleating about baby eyelashes or silent screams, nor 'pfft, whatever, it's like totally the same as jizzing or getting your ingrown toenail done' arguments are getting us ANYWHERE.

silverspoon · 16-12-2010 02:13PM

nessie911 wrote: »

May be with providing an abortion we could educate them as to what contraception is and how you use it, and we could introduce project prevention but not just for drug addicted women but women who are so stupid that they don't use contraception.

Sure they had the choice to use contraception so as to stop an un wanted pregnancy and they didn't use it, so why now do they want to have choices.

Wow I'd love to have the 100% failsafe contraception you use.

smk89 · 16-12-2010 02:20PM

silverspoon wrote: »

Wow I'd love to have the 100% failsafe contraception you use.

The being ugly method?

nessie911 · 16-12-2010 02:21PM

PrincessLola wrote: »

Major lols to be had on this thread. :rolleyes:

Its a zygote, a cluster of cells guys, it has no brain and no feelings it isn't conscious; sure its potential life but so is jizz technically :pac:

But in some parts of america it is acceptable to have an abortion up to 5 and half months, at which stage a child can live out side the womb. it has a heart beat from early on i think its like 15 days, so to me it is more than a potential life.

Abortion under the spotlight in the European Court of Human Rights

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