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Abortion under the spotlight in the European Court of Human Rights

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Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,163 ✭✭✭smk89


    prinz wrote: »
    Prefer if you didn't have to see it huh?

    I can just see you eyes rolling back, your head pointed skyward as you see god's hand make a thumbs up for you as you said that.

    That post was more smug that George Clooney's Oscar acceptance speech

    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2010/1216/breaking11.html (It went against Ireland)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,331 ✭✭✭✭bronte




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,458 ✭✭✭CathyMoran


    It was stupid that the ectopic was not treated in Ireland and as to the woman having chemo...I was potentially in a similar position a few years ago, I had just been diagnosed with oesophageal cancer and needed a ct but as there was a small chance that I was pregnant they would not do the test until they knew that I was not pregnant - not having treatment would result in certain death for me (within weeks). Luckily I was not pregnant at that time but it made a stressful situation even more stressful.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,708 ✭✭✭curlzy


    prinz wrote: »
    Prefer if you didn't have to see it huh?

    Definately, much in same way I don't want to see a video of someone's tooth being pulled or toenail removed. Doesn't mean it shouldn't happen though.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,055 ✭✭✭snickerpuss


    prinz wrote: »
    Prefer if you didn't have to see it huh?
    I wouldn't like to watch footage of brain surgery. Doesn't mean I'm against it!


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    Sulmac wrote: »
    It's slightly hypocritical if you think about it, we're just exporting the problem instead of dealing with it at home.

    There are plenty of things you can do legally abroad that are illegal here. That doesn't mean it's hypocritical.
    smk89 wrote: »
    I can just see you eyes rolling back, your head pointed skyward as you see god's hand make a thumbs up for you as you said that. That post was more smug that George Clooney's Oscar acceptance speech

    Are you hiding in the photocopier? :eek:


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,163 ✭✭✭smk89


    The European Court of Human Rights has ruled that Ireland has failed to properly implement the constitutional right to abortion where a woman is entitled to one where her life is at risk.

    The ruling will put issue of abortion back on the political agenda and is likely to force the Government to introduce legislation or official guidelines on access to abortion for women whose lives are at risk.

    The court unanimously ruled this morning that the rights of one of three women who took a case challenging Irish abortion laws were breached because she had no “effective or accessible procedure” to establish her right to a lawful abortion.

    The woman – known only as “C” – had a rare form of cancer and feared it would relapse when she became unintentionally pregnant.

    However, the woman was unable to find a doctor willing to make a determination as to whether her life would be at risk if she continued to term.

    This morning the court concluded that neither the “medical consultation nor litigation options” relied on by the Government constituted an effective or accessible procedures.

    “Moreover, there was no explanation why the existing constitution right had no been implemented to date,” the court ruled.

    “Consequently, the court concluded that Ireland had breached the third applicant’s – "C" – right to respect for her private life given the failure to implement the existing constitutional right to a lawful abortion in Ireland.”

    The court ruled that there had been no violation of the rights of the two other women involved in the case - "A" and "B".

    The Strasbourg-based court, which is separate from the EU, adjudicates on human rights issues among all 47 member states of the Council of Europe

    The identities of the women, who took the case, remain confidential.

    Two of them are Irish and one is a Lithuanian national who was residing in Ireland. All of them travelled to the UK to have an abortion after becoming pregnant unintentionally.

    They include a woman who ran the risk of an ectopic pregnancy, where the foetus develops outside the womb; a woman who received chemotherapy for cancer and was unable to get clear advice on the dangers posed by an unplanned pregnancy; and a former alcoholic and drug abuser who feared her unplanned pregnancy would jeopardise her attempts to be reunited with her other children in the care system.

    The women - supported by the Irish Family Planning Association - argued before the court last December that they were subject to indignity, stigma and ill-health as a result of being forced to travel abroad for their abortions.

    The Government robustly defended the laws and said Ireland's abortion laws were based on “profound moral values deeply embedded in Irish society”.

    It argued that European Court on Human Rights has consistently recognised the traditions of different countries regarding the rights of unborn children. However, it maintained that the women’s challenge
    sought to undermine these principles and align Ireland with countries with more liberal abortion laws.

    The case was lodged before the court in 2005 and was heard last year at an oral hearing before the European Court of Human Rights's grand chamber.

    This 17-judge court is reserved to hear cases that raise serious questions affecting the interpretation of the European Convention of Human Rights.

    As a signatory to the European Convention on Human Rights – now incorporated into Irish law – the Government is obliged to remedy any breaches of the convention.

    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2010/1216/breaking11.html

    TL;DR: Ireland loses the case based mainly on C's case of a lack of a private life


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    curlzy wrote: »
    Definately, much in same way I don't want to see a video of someone's tooth being pulled or toenail removed. Doesn't mean it shouldn't happen though.
    I wouldn't like to watch footage of brain surgery. Doesn't mean I'm against it!

    Completely different scenarios.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 361 ✭✭silverspoon


    Sulmac wrote: »
    I agree. Basically, the three abortion referenda in 1992 (well, the two that passed - the right to "information" and the right to travel) effectively 'legalised' abortion - but only abortions not performed in Ireland. It's slightly hypocritical if you think about it, we're just exporting the problem instead of dealing with it at home.

    Exactly - I was trying to think of a way to say that in my post but you put it very eloquently - it is just exportation of the problem. Which is just another example of being afraid to upset the cart with regards to voters.

    It is ridiculous to recognise a right to abortion in certain circumstances, yet have no means by which these rights may be realised in Ireland. As long as it's not in our back yard eh?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    smk89 wrote: »
    TL;DR: Ireland loses the case based mainly on C's case of a lack of a private life

    A welcome ruling in my book.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,763 ✭✭✭francois


    Excellent news, it's a pity our gutless politicians did not bite the bullet regarding the ludicrous situation post "C case"


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,549 ✭✭✭Noffles


    "profound moral values deeply embedded in Irish society”

    Hahaha.... God fearing IDIOTS!!!

    Come on... join the modern world!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,650 ✭✭✭sensibleken


    Noffles wrote: »
    "profound moral values deeply embedded in Irish society”

    Hahaha.... God fearing IDIOTS!!!

    Come on... join the modern world!

    considering that came from the government i wouldnt put too much stock in it


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,458 ✭✭✭CathyMoran


    It is particulary poignant for me as I have had a son since I was diagnosed in 2006 and am pregnant again. I agree with the ruling too. Though I do not know the full facts about the cases so it is hard to be fully informed.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 10,093 Mod ✭✭✭✭marco_polo


    Morlar wrote: »

    Does the fact that the European Court of Human Rights has sweet FA to do with the EU make you feel any better?

    Misleading thread title is misleading since Council of Europe != EU


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 361 ✭✭silverspoon


    This is good news; it is just too long in coming. I have the feeling of course that this will be hijacked by people with an agenda. There is no change of law here, simply a recognition of the inadequacy on our law of the implementation of a section of our constitution, as amended by us as a nation. That will not at all be how it will be presented in the trashies and by various interest groups. Which is a terrible shame.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 471 ✭✭checkyabadself


    I can't believe that so much of Irish society hasn't evolved yet. If you're against abortion, don't have an abortion. The sooner people stop meddling in other peoples personal private affairs, the better.


    P.S, surely anyone with a brain knows human rights only apply to humans.

    With homosexuality only being decriminalised in 1993 and divorce in 1995, we really are one of the slowest countries to adapt to social development, so I'm not surprised to see pro-lifers still in the majority.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    P.S, surely anyone with a brain knows human rights only apply to humans..

    ....I see...


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,055 ✭✭✭snickerpuss


    prinz wrote: »
    Completely different scenarios.
    In which way? You're implying that if that poster doesn't want to see footage of an abortion he can't handle it or doesn't really agree with it deep down. I wouldn't want to see footage of any surgical procedures but I don't disagree with them. Otherwise, what exactly was your point when you said "Prefer not to see it huh?" Just a factual observation?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,604 ✭✭✭Kev_ps3


    Noffles wrote: »
    "profound moral values deeply embedded in Irish society”

    Hahaha.... God fearing IDIOTS!!!

    Come on... join the modern world!

    If modern world = murder then no thanks.
    Looks like this ruling will introduce it now, hope the dumb Irish people now enjoy one more lie told to us by our criminal politicians.


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  • Posts: 81,308 CMod ✭✭✭✭ Ethan CoolS Schwa


    I don't get that arguement, kids are told sex causes pregnancy and have been for a long time in schools. It's not that hard to understand.
    Well it's obviously not working is it, given the amount of unwanted pregnancies, & all the urban myths.
    Anything about contraceptives and safe sex I feel should be the responsiblity of parents as it could lead to comprimising discussion, I would prefer a teacher didn't lead into.
    That would be lovely too, but parents are squeamish about it.

    Mrmoe wrote: »
    But she did have a choice, there is the choice between giving up for adoption and raising the child.
    That's an alternative to raising the child, not having the pregnancy & birth.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,163 ✭✭✭smk89


    This is good news; it is just too long in coming. I have the feeling of course that this will be hijacked by people with an agenda. There is no change of law here, simply a recognition of the inadequacy on our law of the implementation of a section of our constitution, as amended by us as a nation. That will not at all be how it will be presented in the trashies and by various interest groups. Which is a terrible shame.

    I know. Joe Duffy will have a field day.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,708 ✭✭✭curlzy


    Noffles wrote: »
    "profound moral values deeply embedded in Irish society”

    Hahaha.... God fearing IDIOTS!!!

    Come on... join the modern world!

    I wouldn't put it quite like that but I do think it's ridiculous that a woman can be forced to have a baby she doesn't want because of what other people think. I think alot of pro-lifers are religious, as someone who thinks a god existing is as likely as a unicorn or goblin existing I think that it's nuts that in this day and age people's lives can be impacted like this based on what people who believe in an invisable man in the sky think.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,650 ✭✭✭sensibleken


    Kev_ps3 wrote: »
    If modern world = murder then no thanks.
    Looks like this ruling will introduce it now, hope the dump Irish people now enjoy one more lie told to us by our criminal politicians.

    I think i will lead us in the collective head-desk

    What lie exactly?

    They are simply reiterating a ruling made 17 years ago by the supreme court but the government never legislated on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    In which way?

    Neither a brain surgery or removing an ingrown toenail involve the intentional taking of life. The only real comparison to be made would be executions.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,055 ✭✭✭snickerpuss


    prinz wrote: »
    Neither a brain surgery or removing an ingrown toenail involve the intentional taking of life. The only real comparison to be made would be executions.
    But what is your point? In order to agree with it you have to be willing to watch it?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    But what is your point? In order to agree with it you have to be willing to watch it?

    Nope, but I do think people should be exposed to it at least once and then think about their stance again. It's very easy to be 'pro-something' or indeed 'anti-something' when you can cover your eyes and block your ears and sing La-la-la-la-la. For the same reason German civilians were forced to witness the realities of the concentration camps to cure any lingering support they might have had.

    If someone watches it and comes away still backing abortions then fair enough, but it's a bit much to accuse others of emotional blackmail etc by allowing that footage be seen.


  • Posts: 81,308 CMod ✭✭✭✭ Ethan CoolS Schwa


    Sulmac wrote: »
    Saw that in school myself; an awful video which if anything made me less sympathetic to the pro-life cause because of the tactics they use.

    Silent scream was shown to be a hoax years ago anyway


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 361 ✭✭silverspoon


    Kev_ps3 wrote: »
    If modern world = murder then no thanks.
    Looks like this ruling will introduce it now, hope the dump Irish people now enjoy one more lie told to us by our criminal politicians.

    OK, A. nothing is being introduced.

    40.3 Constitution:

    1° The State guarantees in its laws to respect, and, as far as practicable, by its laws to defend and vindicate the personal rights of the citizen.

    2° The State shall, in particular, by its laws protect as best it may from unjust attack and, in the case of injustice done, vindicate the life, person, good name, and property rights of every citizen.

    3° The State acknowledges the right to life of the unborn and, with due regard to the equal right to life of the mother, guarantees in its laws to respect, and, as far as practicable, by its laws to defend and vindicate that right.

    This subsection shall not limit freedom to travel between the State and another state.

    This subsection shall not limit freedom to obtain or make available, in the State, subject to such conditions as may be laid down by law, information relating to services lawfully available in another state.

    The bit in bold was recognised in A.G. v X in 1992 (where a 14 year old girl became pregnant as a result of a rape and was suicidal) to mean that a woman had a right to an abortion under Article 40.3.3 if there was "a real and substantial risk" to her life. This right doesn't exist if there is a risk to her health but not her life (which was the issue involved in A, B and C in the case at hand); however it does exist if the risk was the possibility of suicide.

    So. All of this has been recognised since 1992. Yet there is a vacuum with regards to the actual implementation of it. Information is available, yes; women are able to freely travel to obtain an abortion, yes; but the issue of the risk to the life of the mother has not been properly addressed.

    I understand that this is a conscientious issue for many people, but I really want to make sure that people don't go around saying stupid stuff like 'abortion will be introduced here now that the ECHR have stuck their noses in.' This is already law.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,708 ✭✭✭curlzy


    prinz wrote: »
    Neither a brain surgery or removing an ingrown toenail involve the intentional taking of life. The only real comparison to be made would be executions.

    I think this is the crux of the argument for alot of people. You seem to think that life begins at conception. I think it begins at birth, although I personally feel that abortion should not be carried out past the period where the baby could survive outside the womb. Therefore brain surgery and toenail removal is quite similar to abortion, in that it's not very pleasant but should be legal and freely available.


This discussion has been closed.
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