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Would you take a Hit from a Non Airsoft Projectile?

  • 15-12-2010 04:09AM
    #1
    War Machine 539
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,372 ✭✭✭


    Right, dont laugh, but lately I have been in a rather odd train of thought with Airsoft! What with movies such as the Expendables, Rambo and basically any action heavy movies, Guns arent ALWAYS the primary weapon of choice . . . . . . I have been thinking do AEGs and Pistols have to be your only weapon? Why not Throwing Knives? Why not an Archery Bow? Obviously these would be toned down from there normal deadliness, would be HIGHLY impractical, but I like theatrics and as the Dark Knight says '' Theatricality and deception are powerful agents "

    So my question would you take a hit from a throwing knife? Or a Nerf tipped arrow? Or any other strange weapon?

    P.S. there is a line folks, Im not talking about throwing a stick at someone!


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Comments

  • #2
    evilrobotshane
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 988 ✭✭✭evilrobotshane


    You bet - anybody manages to nail you with something like that, you've earned a hit. Throwing knives (and axes and bricks and hubcaps), bows, and crossbows are all well-established items for LARPs and are reasonably safe, if a bit crap.


  • #3
    War Machine 539
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,372 ✭✭✭War Machine 539


    Sweet, I have been looking at Modifying an Archery bow and Nerfing it down a bit! Main reason if for silence . . . . . Still trying to Iron out how to weight a throwing knife! Cheers for the feedback Shane!


  • #4
    J.D.R
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,200 ✭✭✭J.D.R


    A throwing knife could be very dodgy, as, clearly, there is no consistency in power, so while one person could throw it safely, and over active team mate may not, and could conceivably do some damage.

    But, I would love to go up against a team full of scaled down archers, but it would be difficult to get the right balance between range, accuracy, and power to make them safe.

    But, if someone shoots me with an arrow, I will happily take the hit. If someone pelts a rubber knife at my face, taking the hit might not be the first thing to come to mind


  • #5
    Inari
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,152 ✭✭✭Inari


    Whether or not someone would take the hit is only half the issue. Personally I would, as it is an earned hit. I like the additional element of play.

    However the main issue would be whether or not:
    A) You would be allowed to use said devices on an airsoft site
    B) The site's insurance would cover the use of said devices
    And
    C) Whether the people playing would consent to the use of those devices

    On your average airsoft site, people have consented to being hit with 6mm plastic BBs fired at no more than 1j. So it is worth considering, yes. But your best bet is to talk with the site owners and get their perspectives


  • #6
    War Machine 539
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,372 ✭✭✭War Machine 539


    I would love to get site owners input on this, any reading please let me know! For the knives I have been looking at Foam, yet weighted LARP knives, so I doubt, seriously that injurie would occur, the bow Im looking at is a full scale Archers bow - Similar vein to Jessica Beal's in Blade -And I have sourced specific safe arrows for it!

    Agree that safety and consistency of force could be an issue with the bow, the knives Im not sure! Foam to hit a Mesh visor, I would say you came away smiling!


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  • #7
    TNTQ
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,968 ✭✭✭TNTQ


    Already have my foam Tactical Tomahawk made - love it :D


  • #8
    Chuck the Buck
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,478 ✭✭✭Chuck the Buck


    Been talked about before here.

    To allow a rule like this not only opens the flood gates to a whole world of mupperty (sadly airsofters seem to be the lowest common denominator when it comes to thinking of the consequences of their actions) it also would end up being down right dangerous when Jonny decides his M16 stock is the perfect response to something pointy being flung at his face.


    Anyway last time I checked we play airsoft a non-contact sport and not 'I am ye Knight of old whom battle with dragons for yonder fair maiden's honour'.


  • #9
    J.D.R
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,200 ✭✭✭J.D.R


    Chuck the Buck wrote: »

    Anyway last time I checked we play airsoft a non-contact sport and not 'I am ye Knight of old whom battle with dragons for yonder fair maiden's honour'.

    It has also been discussed that airsoft as an entitiy is different to each player, some use it as a bit of craic, some use it as a real life simulation, some use it as a form of emulation to real world.

    So, if someone would like to extend the parameters of getting a kill, which you could technically use the bang and knife kill as an example, this will just be another way of playing the game


  • #10
    War Machine 539
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,372 ✭✭✭War Machine 539


    [QUOTE=

    Anyway last time I checked we play airsoft a non-contact sport and not 'I am ye Knight of old whom battle with dragons for yonder fair maiden's honour'.[/QUOTE]

    Im not talking about longswords, and flanged maces, more practical tactical stuff . . . . . . an archery bow, can and has been used before to kill . . . . . . Im talking about a modern one, No ''Ye Olde'' stuff, theres LARPs for that!
    Its an added dimension to a sport that can be quite limited in variety . . . . . . lot of real world weapons still arent available, whereas the market we have is flooded with countless M4 variants!

    Also I did state there is a line of acceptability, Im not talking about using the butt of an M4 to smash someones head in. Well its not really non contact also . . . . . . Tell me that when someone with a Stubby Killer with a bowmag gets trigger happy 2 feet away from you!
    :P


  • #11
    Chuck the Buck
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,478 ✭✭✭Chuck the Buck


    You want to use an actual bow and arrow or a one of those Nerf gun ones (not an actual arrow with a Nerf ball/dart stuck on the end?)?


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  • #12
    CpcRc
    Closed Accounts Posts: 975 ✭✭✭CpcRc


    I think that the idea of an arrow with a "safe" tip is a good enough idea and sounds interesting. It's just another form of projectile and will give a stelthy aspect to someone's game.

    Of course you have to be certain that it is absolutely safe and that no one can get injured by it. I'd accept a hit from a properly designed projectile but obviously if people are going to think that this means that they can start flinging around crappy homemade blocks of styrofoam or foam then this won't be a great addition to airsoft.

    It raises an idea of more variety definitely but will have to have standards put in place. People need to know that it is a proper part of your airsoft arsenal and not you simply throwing stuff at them. There should be no problem with people taking hits then.

    And if people still won't take hits and fire at you full auto afterwards they probably are the people who don't take hits anyway.

    Good idea, but needs a lot of planning if to be pulled off properly.


  • #13
    War Machine 539
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,372 ✭✭✭War Machine 539


    Yes a proper archery Bow! I agree that regulations of somekind need to be put in place! I want to do this right, If it works should be cool! :D


  • #14
    evilrobotshane
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 988 ✭✭✭evilrobotshane


    As regards stealth, the shot might be quiet but yelling "HIT!" won't be. You'd want to institute a rule that an arrow hit uses the same rules as a knife kill.

    LARPers who use arrows are pretty paranoid of them being stepped on and broken, by the way, I gather they're fairly pricey. That's something to watch out for so - I guess you'd want to be advancing in the direction of your shot, so you can pick it up again as soon as possible.


  • #15
    Chuck the Buck
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,478 ✭✭✭Chuck the Buck


    CpcRc wrote: »
    I think that the idea of an arrow with a "safe" tip is a good enough idea and sounds interesting. It's just another form of projectile and will give a stelthy aspect to someone's game.

    Whats a safe tip, one of those rubber blunts that people use for reenactment? You know, the ones that aren't really safe to use to hit people? Will you're cheap mesh face mask/glasses/goggles hold up to a direct hit? Will my ESS goggles hold up? Hell would your skull hold up intact to a direct hit?

    So we pop a nerf ball on the end, what happens when the arrow's shaft goes through it and into the poor sap on the receiving end?

    What will the sites insurer think about it?
    War Machine 539 wrote: »
    Yes a proper archery Bow! I agree that regulations of somekind need to be put in place! I want to do this right, If it works should be cool! :D

    Some questions for you:

    What draw weight?
    Have you ever tried archery?
    Are you insured as an archer?
    Are you a member of a club or one of the governing bodies?
    Will little Jonny's Mummy and Daddy (or the Cops, DPP, the Judge, or Joe Duffy) be happy that you've killed or maimed their pride and joy?
    Who's going to regulate it?
    Will a site's waver/insurance cover the use of a deadly weapon by some random sleeve chewing muppet?


  • #16
    Airsoft Reloded
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,763 ✭✭✭Airsoft Reloded


    When we first opened we were planning on getting in 40 fake throwing knives but the IAA of the day pointed out that some parents mite not like the image of their child getting grabbed by the head and a fake knife ran across the throat (Thats what knife kills would become if you had a knife to use) so we didn't bother and perhaps they're right about it?


  • #17
    Chuck the Buck
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,478 ✭✭✭Chuck the Buck


    Airsoft Reloded wrote: »
    parents mite not like the image of their child getting grabbed by the head and a fake knife ran across the throat (Thats what knife kills would become if you had a knife to use)

    QFT


  • #18
    Airsoft Reloded
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,763 ✭✭✭Airsoft Reloded


    Chuck the Buck wrote: »
    QFT

    ??? :confused:


  • #19
    Chuck the Buck
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,478 ✭✭✭Chuck the Buck


    Airsoft Reloded wrote: »
    ??? :confused:

    QFT = Quoted for truth

    Personally I believe it was a very good decision on your part, and has probably saved yourself a lot of grief.


  • #20
    TheDoc
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,141 ✭✭✭✭TheDoc


    Airsoft Reloded wrote: »
    ??? :confused:

    Quoted for truth


  • #21
    Airsoft Reloded
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,763 ✭✭✭Airsoft Reloded


    I think so too, twud have been cool though.


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  • #22
    War Machine 539
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,372 ✭✭✭War Machine 539


    My archery skill is limited, I have done it and I dabble in it somewhat, I have started a thread asking the Archery guys wether they think it possible, so far its not looking good, the arrows I have sourced are shatter proof, and are clearly given with safe paramaters of use, to which of course I plan to adhere to.

    If I was to use this equipment, It would be modified in such a way that harm will be avoided and possible injury brought done as low as possible, I cant say to nil because Even AEGs are not 100% safe.

    With due respect to you Buck,Im not '' Sleeve chewing muppet'' I have some idea of what I am doing, I intend copious experiment to take place on this and I plan to make this work, BUT NOT AT THE PRICE OF SAFETY.

    Also with regard to children running around with Foam knives, I think the Guns which are essentially 1:1 firearm replicas, would be a TINY bit more worrying, dont you?


  • #23
    Stone.cold
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,829 ✭✭✭Stone.cold


    War Machine 539 wrote: »
    My archery skill is limited, I have done it and I dabble in it somewhat, I have started a thread asking the Archery guys wether they think it possible, so far its not looking good, the arrows I have sourced are shatter proof, and are clearly given with safe paramaters of use, to which of course I plan to adhere to.

    If I was to use this equipment, It would be modified in such a way that harm will be avoided and possible injury brought done as low as possible, I cant say to nil because Even AEGs are not 100% safe.

    With due respect to you Buck,Im not '' Sleeve chewing muppet'' I have some idea of what I am doing, I intend copious experiment to take place on this and I plan to make this work, BUT NOT AT THE PRICE OF SAFETY.

    Also with regard to children running around with Foam knives, I think the Guns which are essentially 1:1 firearm replicas, would be a TINY bit more worrying, dont you?

    I can honestly say not a chance in hell I would let anyone walk out on to the field carrying anything even remotely like what your suggesting. be it a bow, axe, long sword or ball and chain made out of sponge. and I certainly would not agree to one been used in a game I was taking part in.


  • #24
    Stercus Accidit
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,758 ✭✭✭Stercus Accidit


    Also with regard to children running around with Foam knives, I think the Guns which are essentially 1:1 firearm replicas, would be a TINY bit more worrying, dont you?

    They dont be jabbing at each other with the replica guns though, this was discussed before with say rubber knives, if you go to jab someone with it its going to hurt, and the idea was that a hand on the shoulder was sufficient to avoid the muppet with restraint issues and a toy knife.

    I don't think a proper arrow is appropriate for airsoft, with a soft tip or not, the tip could break off in game or be damaged and then you have a 4mm diameter tip of cracked carbon fibre flying at someone.

    IMO its not worth it, I certainly don't think its suitable for regular skirmishes anyway.


  • #25
    Chuck the Buck
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,478 ✭✭✭Chuck the Buck


    War Machine 539 wrote: »
    Also with regard to children running around with Foam knives, I think the Guns which are essentially 1:1 firearm replicas, would be a TINY bit more worrying, dont you?

    I'm not talking about knives (foam or other wise) I was asking you about your bow and arrow idea. You mangle someone with your bow and arrow and what happens you, the poor sap on the receiving end and both sports?

    From the Archery Forum:
    War Machine 539 wrote: »
    I have found some very specific arrows, But I would be firing them at armored targets . . . . . . . One the velocity was under 328 FPS with a rounded arrow - Like a fishing float - on top I think it would be relativeley safe . . . . . . would it not? The arrows are shatter proof and I would really be going for shots from a good distance . . . . . 60-80 metres plus!

    I can't remember what an average arrow weighs but say its 15 grams, at 328fps thats almost 75J by my calculations. You think thats 'safe'?

    Joule calculator here.


  • #26
    Airsoft Reloded
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,763 ✭✭✭Airsoft Reloded


    No need for the aggression lads, I think the idea is cool if you could be sure that noone would hurl something at someone causing injury but you can't.

    Unfortunately you couldn't do it, though again it would be fun and add a bit more to the knife kill.


  • #27
    flashinbluelite
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 499 ✭✭flashinbluelite


    love the idea of tomahawks and crossbows and arrows and all the other pieces of equipment available in Call of Duty :D :cool:

    BUT......

    when is the last time you went to a game where everyone, all day didnt complain about some sort of gun hotness or cheating??
    I dont remember.....

    just asking for more on field complaining IMO...
    But i do love the idea, will be following this thread closely..... NERF FTW


  • #28
    StevieGriff
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 859 ✭✭✭StevieGriff


    War Machine, sorry to say it and I don't mean to be abusive but you are an absolute moron if you think its safe to use an Archery Bow on a human being.

    Blunted tip or not, even the most common low poundage bow you
    could pick up in an outdoors shop far exceeds the Joule limit and any site owner with a even shred of common sense should and will tell you to put it back in the car or leave.

    I seriously suggest you just drop the idea as its dangerous, unbeleivably moronic and completely inconsiderate towards the sport and your fellow Airsofters.

    If you want to shoot a bow, go to a Archery club..


  • #29
    evilrobotshane
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 988 ✭✭✭evilrobotshane


    There's nothing unusual about playing with this type of replica weapon, and it's been going on in Ireland much longer than airsoft has. From my very limited experience seeing LARP bows being used, they're pretty weak and you'd be looking at, I'd guess, a 20m range, tops. I don't know what the rules they use in LARP are for safety, but naturally they have much the same concerns and standards we do, so the work has been done. I can dig up a LARPer or two and get answers if anybody has any specific questions.


  • #30
    J.D.R
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,200 ✭✭✭J.D.R


    StevieGriff wrote: »

    Blunted tip or not, even the most common low poundage bow you
    could pick up in an outdoors shop far exceeds the Joule limit and any site owner with a even shred of common sense should and will tell you to put it back in the car or leave.

    The one joule law does not have to do with speed, it has to do with energy.

    A bow can theoretically fire at 500fps and still be under the 1 joule limit.

    If I can remember correctly Force=Mass x acceleration

    For airsoft 1 joule = 328fps x .2g     (Not as good a memory as I thought, see post on next page)

    For a foam bow and arrow, it would be something different.

    Not saying this makes it completely and entirely safe, but as this is currently theoretical, talk of it already exceeding the joule rating might be a bit hasty


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  • #31
    Airsoft Reloded
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,763 ✭✭✭Airsoft Reloded


    Calling him "an absolute moron" is a bit much no, he just voiced an idea. Rebuke it if you disagree but theres no call for insults dude


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