Knife/melee rules?

I think there's a lot of talk about all this sort of stuff at the moment.
Maybe it's that people are starting to get out now that the weather has improved:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055919288

And also hit taking:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055918961

Personally I'd be as likely to lamp someone who came at me with a knife - rubber or otherwise - just on reflex. I'd say most people would be the same! As Blay says a tap on the shoulder is good enough...

be it rubber or not those things can still be nasty, i would imagine ( hope ) all sites would stop such items on the skirmish field, i know the guys in cork at times have had to ask people to leave rubber bayonets in there car

As mentioned above - A rubber knife is more dangerous for you. I know I'd smash someone if they came at me with a knife.

Have you guys not noticed that Airsoft is a dangerous sport

actually it is a very safe activity, its because in its essence airsoft is a none contact sport, a knife fake or not is by its nature means airsoft develops a contact element that is not needed

as other have said a rubber knight still has the potential to do damage far more so than an airsoft device when i come down to it

im all for being accurate with impressions and i do have a rubber akm bayonet but that is left at home

It's all about consent. When your average skirmisher goes onto the field, they consent to being hit with BBs.

I don't consent to being poked with a pointy plastic object, anywhere, or manhandled in a way that's not set out beforehand.

Aside from the actual technicalities of it, even the most timid of players are likely to take it as an actual attack and go for you. This is why paintball sites have a minimum engagement distance -- the red mist. If I get a nasty poke in the ribs from some dude, he'll probably get an elbow to the face before I realise what's going on. It all escalates from there.

Aside from that, it's adding a grey area to the game. If you say 'no physical contact', then your average airsofter, who let's face it isn't the sharpest tool in the box, isn't going to be able to claim "I thought it was okay", when their idea of okay doesn't match with anyone else.

Even with the no contact rule, I've seen people dragged several metres, shoved through doorways, and have heard of people being dragged through windows. Once you introduce a grey area it all goes to ****e.

thermo wrote: »

i don't see the differance between using a hand or training knife to get a knife kill, if the "killer" is an over zelus muppet the "victim" could be hurt either way!
i've seen a bloke get a judo chop to the throat in a "knife kill",,,,,, not pleasent!

Did you see the dude who got 'knifed' with that judo chop turn around and nut the muppet who did it?

Have to say I lean towards both sides.

I can understand the side that expresses it is un neccesary and possibly frightining or dangerous to be using rubber knives.

On the other hand I cant help feel its all for a bunch of pansy caring slackjaw ******s and we need to man up.

Two extreme sides of the arguement and I agree with both, yet I'd be more leaning towards having it allowed.

I dont agree one iota to the notion that the visual impact of a knife is scary, frightening or may cause some mental trauma to a player. We run around with guns, and dress in camo, and scream across a field.

I think you get my point.

I dont like this notion of" if someone stuck me with a rubber knive I'd nut them, and theyd deserve it" Thats pretty much scum talk..and anyone with that notion shouldnt step near an airsoft field. Thats probably the most annoying factor that makes me want to use one, to see if its all just talk from loudmouths.

At no point am I condoning you going with a rubbery knife and stabbing someone with it numerous times to simulate a kill. But I dont see the problem with having the blades flat surface pressed against someones hip, or on the shoulder, to simulate the kill. At the end of the day, its the same physical motion and contact used by the hand, except with my hand I can do it alot quicker, where as I'd have to draw a knife.

Plus the fact it would just look good and authentive on some load outs. People being told to remove their rubber knives from WW2 and vietnam loadouts wrecks my noodle beyond belief

Anyway it seems a big no for now, but I just dont like arguements against it, they arnt in anyway shape or form realistic of clear. It seems to be always

" No you cant use a knife, cause if you stuck me with id I'd burst ya"

Which in truth is not the case, you only have to get into one altercation with an airsofter and 99% of the time they stand their and **** a brick.

I dont believe for one second i nthe arguement that the visual impact of a knife causes any sort of distress, like I said your in a game with guns, its really no excuse.

This also goes for the arguement of " well if you were stabbed you might understand". Do we use that same arguement for " if you were shot your understand".

I've seen people dragged several metres, shoved through doorways, and have heard of people being dragged through windows.

I have seen this too obviusly and its mostly milsim games. But its been relative to usually being a man down and being dragged by a medic. This is part and parcel, and if your not comfortable with being dragged to safety to get revived....I dont really have an anwser to be fair..

But if the above in relation to someone running up and grabbing an opponent out through a window, thats absurd.

This debate will probably rage on for some time and I cant ever see it being changed cause its a very narrow minded debate.

With some clear outlined rules beforehand how can it be anymore intrusive then being shot i nthe tooth with a BB?

I can fully understand and outlaw on the use of someone coming up behind a target, and placing the knife to their throat , that could get messy.

I wouldnt be a fan of throwing them either, well I would, but lets not go there

( although I would mention I had this happen to me in predator, and found it to be pretty much awesome, I literally shat a brick, but in my mind it was kudos to the guy who did, not me having a hissy fit cause he got the jump on me)

I dont see the problem with using one , flat blade up on the shoulder, arms, legs. I wouldnt see the problem with using the "tip" pressed gently against a target body armour or tac vest.


If its about consent,

I don't consent to being shot 50 times from a couple of feet, when 1 will do.
I don't consent to being shot on full auto in a CQB enviroment, when its perfectly plausable to be shot by 1.
I don't consent to playing with people who use hicaps, because they have an advantage on me and promote full auto play.
I dont consent to playing with people with ACU, cause it looks ****.

Its really nothing to do with consent. There is a MIGHTY AMOUNT of normal gaming rules that I wouldnt like to give my consent to, but it would just cause a fuss.

This seems like a case of people getting a bit over mammyish, and dissapointing when its in a game like ours.

But alas, milsim is always, and will always be the testing ground for these sort of things, since the vast majority of milsim go without a hitch and have a low amount of dip****s.

A milsim event should defo introduce them for a session with some strict revised ruling on how to use them and see how it goes.

Everyone wont rush out to by them, most people will prefer the transition to sidearm, most people will prefer still using their hand.

But for those of us who have massive Rambo replica rubber knifes, we would definitely appreciate getting to use it

TheDoc wrote: »

This seems like a case of people getting a bit over mammyish, and dissapointing when its in a game like ours.

But alas, milsim is always, and will always be the testing ground for these sort of things, since the vast majority of milsim go without a hitch and have a low amount of dip****s.

A milsim event should defo introduce them for a session with some strict revised ruling on how to use them and see how it goes.

Everyone wont rush out to by them, most people will prefer the transition to sidearm, most people will prefer still using their hand.

But for those of us who have massive Rambo replica rubber knifes, we would definitely appreciate getting to use it

Do you possess such a replica Doc?

I agree that a milsim game is more likely to lead to this not causing a problem - and I've no real issue with knife kills - just some over eager muppet getting carried away.
But no, wait, that won't happen...
Err, yeah it will. The same way some fecktard goes at someone with a highcap on full auto at close range - you know, just because.

Personally I get the man up thing - and I agree. But not everyone will be as ok with it - or as reasonable if they're at the pointy end of said over zealous muppet with his pretty knife toy.

Do I think that having to supress the potential overreaction on being on the receiving end of a plonker trying to knife you between the ribs is big man talk - no, just an opinion. Have I ever decked someone airsofting? Nope - of course not. That's not what the sport is about and it has no place on the field.
Have I wanted to? Yip, on occasion. I could see the potential for trouble with it - don't see the problem with people who know what they're doing using knife kill - for example your recent unforgiven sneaky attack at the May bank holiday event in HRTA - notice how you were able to do a knife kill without feeling the need to take Defenderdude's head off in the process. Would I trust you coming at me with a replice/toy knife Daniel? Yes, despite your demonstrative sneaky pedigree and propensity for evil, yea, I'd be ok with that. But that's because I know you'd not be a sh1t about it. Can't say that about everyone.

are you running for office or somthing? or do you just have a lot of time on your hands at the moment :P everythings seems to be an essay at the moment

when where talking about comedy rubber knives hears that flop over, the ones i;ve seen and have are solid and if you stabe someone it will cause damage, yes they do not have sharp edges but im not worried about that

yes we consent or do not consent to be shot, but those devices are tested at the start of the day, there is no way there doing to cause considerable damage to myself or any other person on the field

are you going to check everyone fake knifes at the start of the day ? because all it takes is for one idiot to take a real one to begin with, and if you do not think that sort of person is out there you live a sheltered life, tapping someone on the shoulder or just saying knife kill is relatively passive, to introduce a fake knife just adds an aggressive confrontation and all it takes is for someone to get there blood up, we already see to much aggression at times

there have been big arguments in the past about theme and black ground and using real work events and storys and stuff like that, and the point was well argued by those involved that although that sort of thing could be used there ws no need to use it, for me the same argument stands, although you can use fake knifes and stuff why on earth do you need to use them, in an open skirmish environment there is no way to remove all the idouts from the mix

but in an open skirmish environment with walk on sites can not leave it to the maturity of players because tbh comment sence and maturity in airsoft is not that common

im afraid you have to plan for the lowest common denominator

and knives by there nature are a confrontational aggressive instrument,

Puding wrote: »

about grenades, sorry the first thing that happened on the sites that i play when they turned up was they could only be used under arm, because people got aggressive and cared away and started throwing them massive distances with the chance on injury

That wasnt the way up in these parts, Red Barn gives a briefing on their use alright, I usually dont even pay attention to what people are doing with their grenades because they are a heap load of ****e, and everyone knows my feelings on this blast radius crap ....

And I getcha bout factoring for the lowest common denominator. The point I'm trying to make is that with EVERYTHING else it seems ok, but with knives its not.

Zoxna grenades for example are a pretty hefty chunk of metal. I'm sure a marshall might intervene if they see someone mill it, but theres no preventitive measure. Its assumed people will use them properly.

Gas pistols ( some designs) have the ability to take co2, or maybe just on standard shoot well over 1 joule. I cant remember the last time I got my pistol chronoed, its a rare day. But its assumed, that everyone has a sub 1 joule pistol. Theres no preventative measure there.

Gas rifles. On the fly fps adjustment that run on co2, probably have the potential of firing up to 3 joules courtesy of a few I got to shoot offgame in Take Aim. could easily be done in the field from what I saw, yet an initial chronographing is done, and if the player grabs attention, maybe a second one. Don't see another measure, cause its just assumed.

Post lunch gaming? Maybe ill swop in a beef-o-tronic spring, its grand cause I wont get chronoed after lunch. Its assumed im using the same setup.

Those above arnt sensationalist, they are absolutely 100% plausible. But they "sound" sensationalist and its the same way I view the knife thing.

Preventative measures are being put into place, without there ever been an incident or problem. The trust and assumptions are there for EVERY other part of airsoft, but when it comes to this tiny point, thats not given, and the only ASSUMPTION is that its going to turn into michael jackson bad video with gore.

the issue is with a knife the natural action is to stab with it, it is to copy call of duty stuff like that, if as you said all your going to do is tap someone on the shoulder then why use a knife in the first place

you seem to see this as a affront to you and people you play with maturity and respectability, it is not, i would have no problem with a large number of people using them, the problem is the minority

with an aeg this minority is still an issue but the risks are seriously limited, you can not seriously injure someone with an aeg, you can seriously injure someone with a fake knife

you can not validate one area of concern my bringing up other issues like fps control for example, each one has to be looked at and managed on there own, you you start validating one danger but saying it is alright because your an also do this this and this just leads to ruin

you say a lot in your posts that you would only use it to tap someone on a shoulder ( my instant thought would be if your only doing to tap someone why do you need the knife ), fair enough but its not you that is the issue, it is the person that uses it to 'stab' someone else, or pretend to slit someone throat etc etc , the issue is never the majority of sensible players but the minority

Puding wrote: »

the issue is with a knife the natural action is to stab with it, it is to copy call of duty stuff like that, if as you said all your going to do is tap someone on the shoulder then why use a knife in the first place

you seem to see this as a affront to you and people you play with maturity and respectability, it is not, i would have no problem with a large number of people using them, the problem is the minority

with an aeg this minority is still an issue but the risks are seriously limited, you can not seriously injure someone with an aeg, you can seriously injure someone with a fake knife

you can not validate one area of concern my bringing up other issues like fps control for example, each one has to be looked at and managed on there own, you you start validating one danger but saying it is alright because your an also do this this and this just leads to ruin

you say a lot in your posts that you would only use it to tap someone on a shoulder ( my instant thought would be if your only doing to tap someone why do you need the knife ), fair enough but its not you that is the issue, it is the person that uses it to 'stab' someone else, or pretend to slit someone throat etc etc , the issue is never the majority of sensible players but the minority

I've a confession to make, I saw the thread title, and after staring at a clock for thirty minutes thought I'd jump onto the obvious weakened side of the debate and see what could get going, I'm happy I achieved a decent enough chat

I dont take it as a denial to me personally, like I said I probably wouldnt even use one. I just find it hard comprahending why there is such a strong dislike for them.

And I do think its plausable to compare this issue to the other daily occurances of airsoft, because wether be it not with the majority or minority it is us making assumptions.

We are assuming that the introduction of a knife will cause some sort of incident that would make those who sanctioned it look stupid. We are however not factoring in how a site owner may lay down some rules, or how players may react to been giving a new tool to use, and perhaps wanting to act in the best interest of everyone, to ensure that tool stays there.

The simple fact is that there is EVERY possability of me cranking a rifle's FPS up on the field taking a shot at 500fps and cranking it back down. Now even if we take me as being me, I'd probably get the benefit of the doubt as said already here " A its doc, he wouldnt do that", thats making assumptions. But we are starting to move into the other spider webs.

Theres also the arugement of how it could hurt, something I'm not 100% sure I agree with. I have two movie prop knifes for example, that are very softly tipped but rigid down the blade, but when the blade is pressed, the blade retracts into the "hilt", as if to simulate the blade going in.

Cost me 30 euros each, could literally, not hurt you unless you were cotton wool in the rain. Although I understand your point about the tough rubber ones. But the one mentioned above, I could press against the back of your head and it would be nore more pressure then me tapping you with my finger.

thermo wrote: »

ibut maybe you could explain how it works in the LARP world?

Eldoran The Cert Keeper cannot be tricked foolish boy!!!


Eldoran is actually Edgar, a 29 year old DIT graduate who posses an out standing ability to file