Unmarried mothers in Ireland compared to the Euro average

Bjorn Bored. · 08-12-2010 01:03AM #1

Not sure if I am in the right forum maybe there is a sociology one but I couldnt find it here but anyway here goes.

I would just like to know how we compare to other Euro countries when it comes to this particular group.

Maybe I am wrong but it seems to me that both Ireland and Britain and also the USA seem to have a lot of unmarried mothers all of which rightly have to be provided for.

Obviously though it creates huge burdens of taxpayers money to keep this up.

When I worked in Italy and France for instance,I just didnt notice so many as I do here,and from what I could gather if a woman did have a child they would usually go home and live with their parents as opposed to being given a house etc.

Look I am not being judgemental here,but if as I suspect is the case that there are an inordinate amount spent on the welfare of these citizens and their offspring compared to other European countries, we have to ask ourselves how sustainable it is and also what culture differences we could possibly adapt to bring our huge bill for dependency on benefits down in the future.

Am I way off the mark to suggest that some women see it as a career choice to have kids for instance?

yosemite_sam · 08-12-2010 01:12AM

Bjorn Bored. wrote: »

Not sure if I am in the right forum maybe there is a sociology one but I couldnt find it here but anyway here goes.

I would just like to know how we compare to other Euro countries when it comes to this particular group.

Maybe I am wrong but it seems to me that both Ireland and Britain and also the USA seem to have a lot of unmarried mothers all of which rightly have to be provided for.

Obviously though it creates huge burdens of taxpayers money to keep this up.

When I worked in Italy and France for instance,I just didnt notice so many as I do here,and from what I could gather if a woman did have a child they would usually go home and live with their parents as opposed to being given a house etc.

Look I am not being judgemental here,but if as I suspect is the case that there are an inordinate amount spent on the welfare of these citizens and their offspring compared to other European countries, we have to ask ourselves how sustainable it is and also what culture differences we could possibly adapt to bring our huge bill for dependency on benefits down in the future.

Am I way off the mark to suggest that some women see it as a career choice to have kids for instance?

They seem well rewarded for the job they are doing, I know a guy who is a widower and he receives 2700 euro a month for himself and his three children:eek:he also does a bit of farming but the 2700 euro is benefit only the farming is a bonus:rolleyes:

Nodin · 08-12-2010 01:49AM

Bjorn Bored. wrote: »

Not sure if I am in the right forum maybe there is a sociology one but I couldnt find it here but anyway here goes.

I would just like to know how we compare to other Euro countries when it comes to this particular group.

Maybe I am wrong but it seems to me that both Ireland and Britain and also the USA seem to have a lot of unmarried mothers all of which rightly have to be provided for.

Obviously though it creates huge burdens of taxpayers money to keep this up.

When I worked in Italy and France for instance,I just didnt notice so many as I do here,and from what I could gather if a woman did have a child they would usually go home and live with their parents as opposed to being given a house etc.

Look I am not being judgemental here,but if as I suspect is the case that there are an inordinate amount spent on the welfare of these citizens and their offspring compared to other European countries, we have to ask ourselves how sustainable it is and also what culture differences we could possibly adapt to bring our huge bill for dependency on benefits down in the future.

Am I way off the mark to suggest that some women see it as a career choice to have kids for instance?

How would one "notice" an unmarried mother, as distinct from a married one...?

Bjorn Bored. wrote: »

but if as I suspect is the case that there are an inordinate amount spent on the welfare of these citizens and their offspring compared to other European countries

I'm somewhat confused. You ask how we compare to other European countries, yet "suspect" that theres an "inordinate amount spent" on unmarried mothers here by comparison. What prompted this suspicion in the first place, if not some figures?

ArtSmart · 08-12-2010 02:47AM

Beyond Obvious. especially the reasonable tone routine.

Bjorn Bored. · 08-12-2010 12:20PM

ArtSmart wrote: »

Beyond Obvious. especially the reasonable tone routine.

Sorry youve lost me there? Just would like an answer to my question thats all.

JJJJNR · 08-12-2010 12:23PM

yosemite_sam wrote: »

They seem well rewarded for the job they are doing, I know a guy who is a widower and he receives 2700 euro a month for himself and his three children:eek:he also does a bit of farming but the 2700 euro is benefit only the farming is a bonus:rolleyes:[/QUOT

If he told you that, he's lying.

hinault · 08-12-2010 12:27PM

Bjorn Bored. wrote: »

Not sure if I am in the right forum maybe there is a sociology one but I couldnt find it here but anyway here goes.

I would just like to know how we compare to other Euro countries when it comes to this particular group.

Maybe I am wrong but it seems to me that both Ireland and Britain and also the USA seem to have a lot of unmarried mothers all of which rightly have to be provided for.

Obviously though it creates huge burdens of taxpayers money to keep this up.

When I worked in Italy and France for instance,I just didnt notice so many as I do here,and from what I could gather if a woman did have a child they would usually go home and live with their parents as opposed to being given a house etc.

Look I am not being judgemental here,but if as I suspect is the case that there are an inordinate amount spent on the welfare of these citizens and their offspring compared to other European countries, we have to ask ourselves how sustainable it is and also what culture differences we could possibly adapt to bring our huge bill for dependency on benefits down in the future.

Am I way off the mark to suggest that some women see it as a career choice to have kids for instance?

I too would like to see some comparative numbers in terms of the benefits given to unmarried mothers here in Ireland compared to Europe.

And I am most certainly judgemental.

My own view is that this type of benefit ought to be cut to the absolute minimum.

Nodin · 08-12-2010 12:27PM

Bjorn Bored. wrote: »

Sorry youve lost me there? Just would like an answer to my question thats all.

Indeed, as I'd like an answer to both of mine, thanks.

BlaasForRafa · 08-12-2010 12:33PM

Bjorn Bored. wrote: »

Sorry youve lost me there? Just would like an answer to my question thats all.

How about doing some research yourself into how much benefits unmarried mothers get in Ireland as opposed to other European countrys. Also some figures on the percentage of births between married/unmarried in Ireland compared to other European countries would be helpful to your argument.

Otherwise all we have to debate are some unsubstantiated anecdotes from yourself.

Joey the lips · 08-12-2010 12:38PM

i dont imagine our over all normal adverage of unmarried mothers is high in this country...

By normal... I mean the genuine situations...

However I imagine there is a large amount of "Unmarried" mothers who claim from the state and have a working or claiming boyfriend in the bed next to them at night.

Now grand if there giving it a couple of months to see if its going to work out...

But 3 kids and a dog later they are still together and still claiming....

I dont blame them tbh....However if something on a welfare computer does not trigger alarms on the second child....Then perhaps we all deserve cuts in welfare...after all it seems the system like the tax system is complety out of sync...

Bjorn Bored. · 08-12-2010 12:46PM

Nodin wrote: »

How would one "notice" an unmarried mother, as distinct from a married one...?

I'm somewhat confused. You ask how we compare to other European countries, yet "suspect" that theres an "inordinate amount spent" on unmarried mothers here by comparison. What prompted this suspicion in the first place, if not some figures?

Oh ok Nodin,

I suppose you do have a point, its just a hunch which is why I would like to have the figures! Who knows maybe Ireland actually spends less on unmarried mothers than say Holland or Germany or indeed France or Italy.

bmarley · 08-12-2010 12:46PM

I think unmarried mother in Ireland are extremely well looked after. It is no wonder that there is so much fraud in this whole area...as no-one wants to be penalised with regard to welfare allowances for being in relationships. Why are fathers not chased up and forced to contribute something towards the care of their children? Although there are plenty of genuine, deserving cases there are many more who are not and see it as an opportunity to keep allowances and work as well...while partner/father of child income is not taken into consideration. I'm tempted to go that way..

Nodin · 08-12-2010 12:49PM

Bjorn Bored. wrote: »

Oh ok Nodin,

I suppose you do have a point, its just a hunch which is why I would like to have the figures! Who knows maybe Ireland actually spends less on unmarried mothers than say Holland or Germany or indeed France or Italy.

An amazing thing to have a hunch on. However, thats one question answered at least. Now, with regards to how you "notice" unmarried mothers....?

Permabear · 08-12-2010 12:53PM

This post has been deleted.

Joey the lips · 08-12-2010 12:55PM

bmarley wrote: »

I think unmarried mother in Ireland are extremely well looked after. It is no wonder that there is so much fraud in this whole area...as no-one wants to be penalised with regard to welfare allowances for being in relationships. Why are fathers not chased up and forced to contribute something towards the care of their children? Although there are plenty of genuine, deserving cases there are many more who are not and see it as an opportunity to keep allowances and work as well...while partner/father of child income is not taken into consideration. I'm tempted to go that way..

There is a flaw here. If they are well looked after why is there fraud and when you say fraud how can a genuine unmarried mother commit fraud....

This is what i am saying. The genuine unmarried mother is being judged by those who are not genuine.

Think about it..

Income of a genuine unmarried mother

196 plus child dependent;
Childrens allowence...

Outgoing

Rent:40-50
Food:60-80

Does not leave much left when you allow 30 euro a week for bills...

Bjorn Bored. · 08-12-2010 01:06PM

Nodin wrote: »

An amazing thing to have a hunch on. However, thats one question answered at least. Now, with regards to how you "notice" unmarried mothers....?

Perhaps some personal observation wouldnt go amiss here. I worked in southern Italy for two yrs about 10 yrs ago, a girl in the office became pregnant which she was initially over the moon about,however over the weeks it became obvious that the father didnt want to have anything to do with the child,I felt so sorry for her and asked her how she would manage, she told me she would have to ask her family to help out in minding the child while she kept on with her job,I asked her were there any supports she could get from the state and she just laughed,either she worked to support her child or go home and live with mama and papa on the farm and live on bread and cheese. Now the fact is I dont know if she could have got help but the very concept seemed an anathema to her, it just didnt even occur to her that she could get something for nothing.

Joey the lips · 08-12-2010 01:11PM

Bjorn Bored. wrote: »

Perhaps some personal observation wouldnt go amiss here. I worked in southern Italy for two yrs about 10 yrs ago, a girl in the office became pregnant which she was initially over the moon about,however over the weeks it became obvious that the father didnt want to have anything to do with the child,I felt so sorry for her and asked her how she would manage, she told me she would have to ask her family to help out in minding the child while she kept on with her job,I asked her were there any supports she could get from the state and she just laughed,either she worked to support her child or go home and live with mama and papa on the farm and live on bread and cheese. Now the fact is I dont know if she could have got help but the very concept seemed an anathema to her, it just didnt even occur to her that she could get something for nothing.

We had that system here once.... It was called the magdaline laundries...

Perhaps there is more to the state being "generous" then meets the eye.

Bjorn Bored. · 08-12-2010 01:15PM

Joey the lips wrote: »

We had that system here once.... It was called the magdaline laundries...

Perhaps there is more to the state being "generous" then meets the eye.

Joey I am not saying I agree with the way they do things over there far from it,merely making an observation,personally I think it terrible to have to end up in a situation like that.

Joey the lips · 08-12-2010 01:22PM

Bjorn Bored. wrote: »

Joey I am not saying I agree with the way they do things over there far from it,merely making an observation,personally I think it terrible to have to end up in a situation like that.

I never thought you were.

I understand but what people fail to see is the genuine unmarried mother/father in this country is housed,fed and watered but screwed after that. No social life. Encouraged to move to big towns to save on transport so usually cut off from family. Yes they are looked after but if they dont make an effort to get out of there situation they will never have a life.

Now you measure that with the unmarried mother that is not genuine.

I think our system is operating but not working. I think welfare is creating a big noose which it will one day hang itself by. It fails to check non genuine cases correctly. It fails in many ways and what you end up with is the genuine case being hurt so bad...

On the italian case... Was the women living in northern or southern italy...

gurramok · 08-12-2010 01:25PM

http://www.dsdni.gov.uk/index/ssa/benefit_information/benefit_rates.htm
UK
Lone parent (aged under 18) £51.85 Lone parent (aged 18 or over) £65.45

http://www.opfs.org.uk/files/one-parent-families_a-profile_2009.pdf
1.9 Lone parents in Britain.

"According to the CSO, there are over 189,000 lone parent families in Ireland, with over 85,000 of those in receipt of social welfare support through the One Parent Family payment (OPF), costs about a billion. Higher proportion here. http://www.welfare.ie/EN/Press/PressReleases/2008/Pages/pr171108.aspx

Scotland which has a higher population than us at just over 5million has 174,000 lone parents. Higher proportion here.

T runner · 08-12-2010 01:28PM

hinault wrote: »

I too would like to see some comparative numbers in terms of the benefits given to unmarried mothers here in Ireland compared to Europe.

And I am most certainly judgemental.

My own view is that this type of benefit ought to be cut to the absolute minimum.

The difference between here and Europe is that their governments have invested in and promoted affordable and comprehensive childcare. This means that a mother can supplement her income with a part-time or full-time job while raising teh child.

In our backward national outlook we see teh womans palce is in teh home. Therefore she cant work as she must mind the child (childcare is unaffordable), why would she need it anyway, and that means the government must put the money into benefits.

You cant have unaffordable child care AND no benefits.
Cutting benefits to "the absolute minimum" here is barbarian.
This system can be open to abuse, but penalising single parent families because of an archaic national culture is not on.
We have treated our children badly enough in this country to date.

Bjorn Bored. · 08-12-2010 01:30PM

She was from the south, there is a big difference between the attiudes between a city say like Bari and those up in Milan. I think you hit the nail on the head when you say that our system is operating but not working.

K-9 · 08-12-2010 01:34PM

hinault wrote: »

I too would like to see some comparative numbers in terms of the benefits given to unmarried mothers here in Ireland compared to Europe.

And I am most certainly judgemental.

My own view is that this type of benefit ought to be cut to the absolute minimum.

I wonder are there figures on how Lone Parent payments affect the single parent birth rate. Looking at the US, I'd have my doubts if lower payments make any difference!

As TRunner said, childcare provisions are far better, cheaper, and subsidised in England and NI and measures like keeping the LP payments while working, up to a limit, are to help towards the childcare costs here.

Probably why they pay higher Income taxes and National Insurance there than we do here!

Joey the lips · 08-12-2010 01:39PM

Bjorn Bored. wrote: »

She was from the south, there is a big difference between the attiudes between a city say like Bari and those up in Milan. I think you hit the nail on the head when you say that our system is operating but not working.

Now thats interesting.... If you look up the economics of italy you will actually see that most of italys poverty is in the south.

I imagine if you look into her circumstances there is options... There is options created under european law. These are the same options that exist in ireland.

However as i have been constantly saying... Its not the genuine cases that have the system screwed...

I am thankful i am not an ummarried/seperated mother or father...Genuine or ungenunine...

Bjorn Bored. · 08-12-2010 01:51PM

Joey the lips wrote: »

Now thats interesting.... If you look up the economics of italy you will actually see that most of italys poverty is in the south.

I imagine if you look into her circumstances there is options... There is options created under european law. These are the same options that exist in ireland.

However as i have been constantly saying... Its not the genuine cases that have the system screwed...

I am thankful i am not an ummarried/seperated mother or father...Genuine or ungenunine...

Oh I knowwell that the south is poorer, what I am saying is though that the people in the south generally dont seem to know what is available to them as demonstrated by the fact that the lady in question hadnt a notion that she could get help,it just didnt even occur to her to ask. The south is also controlled in large part by the mafia wheter or not officialdom would like to admit that. As I said earlier there is a different culture,call it a lack of education in knowing ones entitlements,call it a better attitude towards working,personally I have no opinion,just questions.

dublingirl33 · 08-12-2010 02:04PM

Bjorn Bored. wrote: »

Not sure if I am in the right forum maybe there is a sociology one but I couldnt find it here but anyway here goes.

I would just like to know how we compare to other Euro countries when it comes to this particular group.

Maybe I am wrong but it seems to me that both Ireland and Britain and also the USA seem to have a lot of unmarried mothers all of which rightly have to be provided for.

Obviously though it creates huge burdens of taxpayers money to keep this up.

When I worked in Italy and France for instance,I just didnt notice so many as I do here,and from what I could gather if a woman did have a child they would usually go home and live with their parents as opposed to being given a house etc.

Look I am not being judgemental here,but if as I suspect is the case that there are an inordinate amount spent on the welfare of these citizens and their offspring compared to other European countries, we have to ask ourselves how sustainable it is and also what culture differences we could possibly adapt to bring our huge bill for dependency on benefits down in the future.

Am I way off the mark to suggest that some women see it as a career choice to have kids for instance?

First of all I would just like to say that I am in this "group" as you call it, I am a single parent to 3 children, and yes I do claim social welfare, I am also in the other "group" the taxpayer. I only joined this last night and I have only realised what kind of people are living in Ireland. There are alot of you out there who think that young girls spend their days day dreaming of spending their young lives struggling to bring up children on their own on the bread line, in run down council estates, well we dont. I could not see any woman making a career out of it. I dont think there would be much to gain from this kind of life.

Maybe if the people of Ireland started to look after their own people we would not be in the trouble that we are in at the moment

hinault · 08-12-2010 06:24PM

T runner wrote: »

.
Cutting benefits to "the absolute minimum" here is barbarian.
This system can be open to abuse, but penalising single parent families because of an archaic national culture is not on.
We have treated our children badly enough in this country to date.

I'm happy to be considered a barbarian.

Bringing kids in to the world is a huge financial responsibility.
A responsibility which should make the "parents" think before doing so.

Our benefit system really is too lax and is widely abused.

dublingirl33 · 08-12-2010 08:31PM

hinault wrote: »

I'm happy to be considered a barbarian.

Bringing kids in to the world is a huge financial responsibility.
A responsibility which should make the "parents" think before doing so.

Our benefit system really is too lax and is widely abused.

Bringing children into the world is more that just a financial responsibility, and all parents will know this, some women have their children while in a relationship & then they can find them selves on their own, its not the 1900's where a woman has to stay in an abusive relationship just to save face. would you like to see homeless women and children living on the streets with there children? if the goverment cut benifits any further this is what you will be seeing on a more regular basis..

What about our so called government, banks and developers that have been abusing our system?

There are alot of people who will turn a blind eye to this kind of fraud, but yet you decide to penalise the most vunerable of our society.

Cop on...

usamaoreilly · 08-12-2010 08:41PM

These are our country s children...They are the future of a country,they will be out working and paying taxes when we are old and frail..We have to look after them and we are obliged by our constitution to do same...Their mothers have a right to live in their own homes...

hinault · 08-12-2010 09:18PM

dublingirl33 wrote: »

Bringing children into the world is more that just a financial responsibility, and all parents will know this, some women

I emphatically disagree.
The socially responsible people decide to hold off having kids until such time as they're financially secure.
Financial security for most people doesn't arrive until at least their 30's.

The amount of girls I see pushing prams/buggies that are in their teens suggests to me that these "parents" are highly irresponsible.

Remember you need a licence to keep a dog.....................

dublingirl33 wrote: »

would you like to see homeless women and children living on the streets with there children? if the goverment cut benifits any further this is what you will be seeing on a more regular basis..

if people are going to bring kids in to this world, without being financially responsible for those kids - I really don't see why the rest of us should be expected to pick up their tab.

dublingirl33 wrote: »

What about our so called government, banks and developers that have been abusing our system?

I agree that they've abused the taxpayer also.
And if you read my posts here, I have stated that Drumm, Seanie and the rest of them ought to be made pay and pay dearly for their lies/greed/theft.

But what Seanie/Drumm etc have done doesn't validate the wasters in receipt of benefits from this State.

dublingirl33 wrote: »

There are alot of people who will turn a blind eye to this kind of fraud, but yet you decide to penalise the most vunerable of our society.

Cop on...

I don't turn a blind eye to either set of spongers.
Seanie/Drumm and co are as flagrant as the irresponsible parents who bring kids in to this world and expect the State the fund the upkeep of those kids.

dublingirl33 · 08-12-2010 09:37PM

hinault wrote: »

I emphatically disagree.
The socially responsible people decide to hold off having kids until such time as they're financially secure.

Financial security for most people doesn't arrive until at least their 30's.

The amount of girls I see pushing prams/buggies that are in their teens suggests to me that these "parents" are highly irresponsible.

Remember you need a licence to keep a dog.....................

if people are going to bring kids in to this world, without being financially responsible for those kids - I really don't see why the rest of us should be expected to pick up their tab.

Do you really think that there are young girls out there dreaming of living in poverty with people like you looking down there noses at them? I dont think so..

I agree that they've abused the taxpayer also.
And if you read my posts here, I have stated that Drumm, Seanie and the rest of them ought to be made pay and pay dearly for their lies/greed/theft.

But what Seanie/Drumm etc have done doesn't validate the wasters in receipt of benefits from this State.

What about the recession and the victims of that, that are in receipt of social welfare, you know the ones that have worked paid their taxes and now have lost their jobs and are living on social welfare, struggling to make ends meet, and maybe their might be a few lone parent among them.. would you class these as wasters or victims of the real criminals of our society...

I don't turn a blind eye to either set of spongers.
Seanie/Drumm and co are as flagrant as the irresponsible parents who bring kids in to this world and expect the State the fund the upkeep of those kids.

There are plenty people who rely on benefits are no way spongers, and those kids that you are refering to will probably be paying the taxes that will look after you in your old age

Unmarried mothers in Ireland compared to the Euro average

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