Social Welfare cut but Public Service Pay not ?

07-12-2010 08:05PM

0O7 wrote: »

the dole or "the scratch" as somebody called it is designed to survive, not live the life. get a job if you want better.

I'd love a job. Considering I'm qualified ( and experienced) as both a Credit Controller, and also a Teacher, I'm sending out resume's daily for both positional types. I'm also sending out resumes for anything I'm even remotely qualified for, and guess what? No freaking jobs.

and btw i know somebody on the dole that states he is "on the scratch" and has no intention of working as he figures its not worth the bother in this country when you can have everything for free if you dont work

We all know one or two people pissing about because of the dole. On the other hand though we all know dozens of people out of work, on welfare, and actively looking for work. Its a pity that people like you have to look at a minority, and pass it off as the majority.

0O7 · 07-12-2010 08:05PM

Rodin wrote: »

40 * 7.65 = 306 euro. Before tax.

i was going by 9 euro per hour

caseyann · 07-12-2010 08:09PM

0O7 wrote: »

i was going by 9 euro per hour

I think if you break down the social welfare payment into full time hours it works out something like 5 euro an hour full time and more partime if they were working.

rasper · 07-12-2010 08:16PM

RoverJames wrote: »

I'm not a public servent I was out of work myself a few years back

One third of jobseekers or whatever the correct term is were on the dole during the boom and always will be. It's there benefit that should be cut.

Just because there was a consistent unemployment rate of 4% 150k during the bubble years(one of the lowest in EU) it doesnt mean it was the same 150k people all along, most of these people are just between jobs , finished exams , recently let go, etc
Maybe 10-20% of that 4% may be long term unemployed or even unemployable,

0O7 · 07-12-2010 08:18PM

Deleted User wrote: »

I'd love a job. Considering I'm qualified ( and experienced) as both a Credit Controller, and also a Teacher, I'm sending out resume's daily for both positional types. I'm also sending out resumes for anything I'm even remotely qualified for, and guess what? No freaking jobs.

.

would you not take a job that requires no qualification??? I saw a topaz looking for people 2 weeks ago!

just edited.... sorry i dont mean to be offensive

Browney7 · 07-12-2010 08:19PM

Will any government ever have the political will to not just look at the figures straight up but to actually look at where the figures come from.

I'd have no problem with the following. We spend X amount on social welfare which is made up of lets say 30% newly unemployed, 40% medium term unemployed and 20% percent long term unemployed and 10% who have never worked a day in their lives. Then cut accordingly such as no cut to newly unemployed, 15% cut to medium term unemployed, 25% cut to long term unemployed and 50% cut to the rest (I'm only plucking these figures out of thin air so don't hang me from the rafters).

I have absolutely no problem with someone who has worked for the past 10 years having paid income tax and PRSI for those years getting full Job seekers for 18 to 24 months because it's a serious shock to the system to be made unemployed through no fault of your own.

The same could be said for those in public sector. No cut for lower paid, 10% cut for middle managers and the likes and 20% for higher paid civil servants.

Surely it can't be that hard to implement something like this

ainetravels · 07-12-2010 08:19PM

is the job seeker allowance cut on just new applicants or is it on existing ones aswell?

0O7 · 07-12-2010 08:22PM

ainetravels wrote: »

is the job seeker allowance cut on just new applicants or is it on existing ones aswell?

existing!

Blondini · 07-12-2010 08:27PM

mixednuts wrote: »

I really do not want to start off the Private 'v' Public employee argument again

This is exactly what you are doing. Let me tell you a story.

After I graduated I was a private sector worker up until 2002.

I then voluntarily left the private sector and took a public sector job for much much much less money because I wanted a change in direction. My choice - no regrets.

I earn less now in 2010 in the public sector than I did in 2002 in the private sector.

When I made this decision every single person that I knew thought I was mad because I was basically "demoting myself" , "throwing my career away" ,"heading for financial ruin" and I actually had people laugh at me.

Now fast forward to 2010 and guess what .. From these same people I now hear "You're a cute hoor" , "Sure you're paid too much" , "Why don't you take a pay cut" etc etc et-f*ckin-cetera

I am sick of the hypocrisy and short-term memory of the f*ckin Joe Duffy and Indo masses. Jumping on any bandwagon regardless of the facts.

Sick of it.

ainetravels · 07-12-2010 08:44PM

so it is just

targeting

people looking for work? and not job seeker benefit or back to education schemes etc etc??

Bogger77 · 07-12-2010 08:48PM

Deleted User wrote: »

I'd love a job. Considering I'm qualified ( and experienced) as both a Credit Controller, and also a Teacher, I'm sending out resume's daily for both positional types. I'm also sending out resumes for anything I'm even remotely qualified for, and guess what? No freaking jobs.

PM sent, based on your location

istabrac77 · 07-12-2010 08:58PM

They should drop th dole to 100 euros if you are on it for more than 12mths. As it stands long term unemployment is a profession.

whiteandlight · 07-12-2010 09:03PM

As a fully qualified teacher with experience in the classroom with the latest curriculum and having lectured it too (to teachers twice my age) to try and get my CV as good as I can I really resent the 10% pay cut to incoming people.

This means that every part time teacher (and there are a lot of them in 2nd level at least) will be taking at least a 10% paycut next September when our contracts are renewed while there are teachers above us on salaries that we will never see in our lifetime who will not take this cut. In addition this budget has stated that all incoming staff will start at level 1 on the payscale. If this applies to teachers this means despite experience and post graduate qualifications we will never get a pay rise for the foreseeable future while once again those on huge public service pensions (I'm talking 70k plus) and those who managed to get the elusive permanent job before the jobs freeze are immeasurably better off than us. The average 2nd level teacher spends 7 years before they get any sniff of a permanent contract. That means 7 years with no pay increase at all.

Just as a comparison. 2 years ago when starting a one year contract I received 39077. Next September the same work and qualifications will get me: 33352. This is a full 15% cut before any of the extra taxes etc get applied to it.

Now I know that the country is in recession and I know that many people think we dont work hard enough (for another thread but I wouldn't mind working more in the summer) but my BEEF with all of this is the fact that its only us young public servants being hit with this extra 10%? It is so unfair and its because of the croke park agreement. If everyone had been hit (particularly higher earners e.g. consultants etc) then it could have been spread better. This is aimed at the under 30s and is rotten.

_michelle_ · 07-12-2010 09:06PM

0O7 wrote: »

the dole or "the scratch" as somebody called it is designed to survive, not live the life. get a job if you want better.

188euro is far too much.

what do ye excpect????? put a new public servant down 10% so after tax etc he will be coming out with 320, maybe he should be cut again so that he / she be better off not working????

and btw i know somebody on the dole that states he is "on the scratch" and has no intention of working as he figures its not worth the bother in this country when you can have everything for free if you dont work

So what because one person says he doesnt want a job all the other 400,000 od thousand are the same. God would you get a grip on reality!

wonderfulname · 07-12-2010 09:10PM

istabrac77 wrote: »

They should drop th dole to 100 euros if you are on it for more than 12mths. As it stands long term unemployment is a profession.

I agree to a point, I think there should be food stamps or the like, 100e is still fine for a single person, in fact with rent allowance I'd be able to live a pretty ok lifestyle on that, I could even fit in a trip or two to the offie. On the other hand for someone with dependants it could spell the end of them.
Give people on the dole that long what they need to survive without room for luxury expenditure like fags, drink or drugs (and I'm not saying that everyone spends the dole on that, just that in the minority, but none the less notable no. of cases that abuse the system). The only way to do that is to budget for them, i.e. food/utility stamps.

kippy · 07-12-2010 09:12PM

Musicmental85 wrote: »

As a fully qualified teacher with experience in the classroom with the latest curriculum and having lectured it too (to teachers twice my age) to try and get my CV as good as I can I really resent the 10% pay cut to incoming people.

This means that every part time teacher (and there are a lot of them in 2nd level at least) will be taking at least a 10% paycut next September when our contracts are renewed while there are teachers above us on salaries that we will never see in our lifetime who will not take this cut. In addition this budget has stated that all incoming staff will start at level 1 on the payscale. If this applies to teachers this means despite experience and post graduate qualifications we will never get a pay rise for the foreseeable future while once again those on huge public service pensions (I'm talking 70k plus) and those who managed to get the elusive permanent job before the jobs freeze are immeasurably better off than us. The average 2nd level teacher spends 7 years before they get any sniff of a permanent contract. That means 7 years with no pay increase at all.

Just as a comparison. 2 years ago when starting a one year contract I received 39077. Next September the same work and qualifications will get me: 33352. This is a full 15% cut before any of the extra taxes etc get applied to it.

Now I know that the country is in recession and I know that many people think we dont work hard enough (for another thread but I wouldn't mind working more in the summer) but my BEEF with all of this is the fact that its only us young public servants being hit with this extra 10%? It is so unfair and its because of the croke park agreement. If everyone had been hit (particularly higher earners e.g. consultants etc) then it could have been spread better. This is aimed at the under 30s and is rotten.

It sucks but theres a history of this in the public service - pre and post 1995 for one and indeed I believe there have been differences to the pensions in a few phases of the public service.

_michelle_ · 07-12-2010 09:14PM

cson wrote: »

A necessary cut though; I'm unsure of when the 'Bonus' came into operation but it and the level of JSA were based upon revenues from a growing economy which were substantial at the time. Both [Bonus; Economy] are gone as a consequence.

Well just lucky I'm not reliant on it eh?? Wouldnt want you in power would we.....:rolleyes:

whiteandlight · 07-12-2010 09:15PM

Differences in pensions yes but an extra 10% ontop of 5% cuts and upped taxes sucks royally. I wish I'd been born 4/5 years earlier!

_michelle_ · 07-12-2010 09:18PM

Gavin shels wrote: »

I don't get a bonus in work, why should you get a bonus on the dole?

No you tell them Santa didn't have time to make everything or something along them lines.

As for the OP, my mother is a civil servent and is by no means on a huge wage, her pay over the last 2 years has been cut by 16% and shes working more hours a week. Myself, I'm a college student (increase of €500 in my reg fee) and on minimum wage, which I've been cut down to in the summer, if my wage goes down to the new €7.65 I'll have taken 16% decrease in wages in 5 months. NOw go back and ask yourself why Social Welfare was only cut by 4%.:rolleyes:

Wow so what about the cut in the last two budgets?? Not a cut eh..... Really I would of thought a "Free" college education would of thought you more!;)

kippy · 07-12-2010 09:20PM

Musicmental85 wrote: »

Differences in pensions yes but an extra 10% ontop of 5% cuts and upped taxes sucks royally. I wish I'd been born 4/5 years earlier!

Not just pension differences..........

Yep, it sucks royally but my friend, that is life sadly.
I could point out to you 10 things that the "youth" have had in the past few years that may never be seen again, and the same for recent pensioners of every sector.

lornakg · 07-12-2010 09:24PM

wonderfulname wrote: »

In all fairness the change in take home pay for a public servant over the past few years has been quite large, there's only so much someone's income can be cut, their expenditure and debts are generally two irreversibly high.

Exactly!! Why does the op think public servants have got no cuts in the budget?? Public servants are getting the same prsi and levy changes as everyone else so their wages are been cut, along with everyone elses even though they already got a 14% pay cut this year. Why do people on welfare resent, public servants, who work for their money, getting a wage?
4% was not a big enough cut off jobseekers allowance. Anyone who has been unemployed all through the 'boom' years should have had a cut of at least 25%

prettyboy81 · 07-12-2010 09:27PM

Me thinks somebody is bored on the dole & is trying to have a wind up on this tonight, 4% token gesture by the government. It should have been 10% with incremental decreases for the "not interested in getting a job brigade" in this country....

whiteandlight · 07-12-2010 09:28PM

kippy wrote: »

Not just pension differences..........

Yep, it sucks royally but my friend, that is life sadly.
I could point out to you 10 things that the "youth" have had in the past few years that may never be seen again, and the same for recent pensioners of every sector.

I'm sure I could list more for you. My point is that there is no reason if you are going to cut by 10% all new entries that you shouldn't cut current employees doing the same work for more money.

_michelle_ · 07-12-2010 09:31PM

lornakg wrote: »

Exactly!! Why does the op think public servants have got no cuts in the budget?? Public servants are getting the same prsi and levy changes as everyone else so their wages are been cut, along with everyone elses even though they already got a 14% pay cut this year. Why do people on welfare resent, public servants, who work for their money, getting a wage?
4% was not a big enough cut off jobseekers allowance. Anyone who has been unemployed all through the 'boom' years should have had a cut of at least 25%

So how will they pay rent, esb, gas, tv licence, food,?? My god do you really not live in the real world??

kippy · 07-12-2010 09:31PM

Musicmental85 wrote: »

I'm sure I could list more for you. My point is that there is no reason if you are going to cut by 10% all new entries that you shouldn't cut current employees doing the same work for more money.

Probably, its very unfair but you can blame the unions and indeed your future colleagues for that - actually scratch that (we have enough ordinary people against ordinary people) . You can blame successive FF/PD/Green and independent governments for that.

That being said, I started in my role significantly under those who were doing the same job despite me being more qualified and having far more relevant (and more) experience than they had going into the job. Does it bother me, yep it does. Its a major issue with the public service and part of a wider item which I have discussed at length else where.

wonderfulname · 07-12-2010 09:39PM

Musicmental85 wrote: »

I'm sure I could list more for you. My point is that there is no reason if you are going to cut by 10% all new entries that you shouldn't cut current employees doing the same work for more money.

Well there is in that you probably don't have a mortgage or similar, and when you do it won't be as high.
I do worry about what they are doing with teaching though, there is no incentive for someone with a lvl8 or higher to go in to teaching, how can we have a smart economy if those teaching pupils have only 2/3 years of 3rd level education?
I assume that if everyone is starting at the bottom of the ladder there will never be any benefits to having a high level of education in teaching?
I am also assuming that if pensions are calculated as an average there is little long term benefit to taking on the extra work associated with being a principle/ vice/ principles aid.

soden12 · 07-12-2010 09:43PM

caseyann wrote: »

It was a bonus for kids not for parents,when things are at their most difficult :rolleyes:
Prices of presents etc.. should be cut or they should ban advertisement of anything out of reach for lower paid parents and those on social welfare.:) Instead of rubbing it in their faces.

Yeah right.

There'll always be someone worse off and always someone better off.

The Dole is there to pay for the necessities - food, ordinary clothes, council rent. It's not designed to pay for the latest Nike gear (or whatever the current knacker fashion is) or for Xboxs, Flat-screen TVs...

When I was a kid the family income was what it was . We didn't have everything that was advertised and that was life.

lornakg · 07-12-2010 09:44PM

_michelle_ wrote: »

So how will they pay rent, esb, gas, tv licence, food,?? My god do you really not live in the real world??

Ehhh... well, they could work and pay their own way??? Nobody resents recently unemployed people claiming their benefits but anyone who has not worked for 3 or more yrs is just not looking hard enough for a job!
As for living in the real world, do u think its unrealistic to expect people to pay their own way? Why should a minimum wage worker take a 12% cut when someone who is allergic to work only takes a 4% cut??

whatawaster · 07-12-2010 09:45PM

Blondini wrote: »

This is exactly what you are doing. Let me tell you a story.

After I graduated I was a private sector worker up until 2002.

I then voluntarily left the private sector and took a public sector job for much much much less money because I wanted a change in direction. My choice - no regrets.

I earn less now in 2010 in the public sector than I did in 2002 in the private sector.

When I made this decision every single person that I knew thought I was mad because I was basically "demoting myself" , "throwing my career away" ,"heading for financial ruin" and I actually had people laugh at me.

Now fast forward to 2010 and guess what .. From these same people I now hear "You're a cute hoor" , "Sure you're paid too much" , "Why don't you take a pay cut" etc etc et-f*ckin-cetera

I am sick of the hypocrisy and short-term memory of the f*ckin Joe Duffy and Indo masses. Jumping on any bandwagon regardless of the facts.

Sick of it.

I sympathise with everyone who's suffered a fall in income.

But 2 points:

1) The cost of living is falling, and will probably fall back further, so in real terms any drop in income is not as severe as it is in nominal terms.

2) Can you tell me any path we can take to balance our budget without massively cutting public sector numbers and pay/pensions? I'd love to hear it. I have sympathy for public sector workers, many of whom do work hard, and are having shocks to their living standards. But if there is another way i would love to hear it

sdanseo · 07-12-2010 09:46PM

Public servants have had their pay cut enough.

Top salaries still need addressing (250,000 for a sec gen when the Taoiseach now earns less is unsustainable and plain wrong).

I hate to agree with SF but the newst TD Pearse Doherty said today that the govt have merely cut figurehead, high profile salaries to make it look like they're doing something. Needs to go a lot further.

Social Welfare cut but Public Service Pay not ?

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